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(Chicago Trib)   Chicago, with the nation's strictest gun laws, would like to point out that 1 of the 7 homicides last night was a stabbing. No gun was used in that killing   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 451
    More: Sad, Chicago, stabbing, homicides, gun laws, stab wound, Chicago Police Department, Englewood  
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4558 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-27 12:57:11 PM

Mikey1969: bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

Try to follow along. They are pointing out that taking away the guns is NOT reducing the crime.


Since Chicago's 30 year handgun ban ended, gun violence has soared.

Anybody trying to use Chicago as "proof" for or against gun laws is an asshole.
 
2013-01-27 12:57:40 PM

stirfrybry: bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

If you are so dumb and incapable of logical thought that you sign onto - let alone repeat talking points supporting - this argument, then you might just be (a) too stupid to breed, (b) a Fox viewer, and (c) a redneck.

Idiot. The take-away is that gun control is ineffective, not that it causes crime. Lame strawman is lame




So your argument is that correlation with n=1 implies causation on the general effectiveness of gun control? In the absence of the counter factual??

You guys are even dumber than *I* thought you are. Thanks for proving the point, genius.
 
2013-01-27 12:57:41 PM

bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

If you are so dumb and incapable of logical thought that you sign onto - let alone repeat talking points supporting - this argument, then you might just be (a) too stupid to breed, (b) a Fox viewer, and (c) a redneck.


HAHA... no.

The pursuit of gun control does nothing to lower violence. The point of gun control is supposed to be to lower violence. The result of gun control is people have on average fewer guns and criminals have more than the average person (all other criminal factors except for possession of gun being equal).

Ontos: The Second Amendment isn't there solely for hunting. Anyone claiming otherwise is either an idiot, or willfully obtuse


I'd go further. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

Mrtraveler01: But then you look at NYC and DC which have its murder numbers plummet to record levels even though they have strict gun laws as well.


DC's murder rate fell even after the repeal of its ban. In California, the murder rate rose after a gun control measure in the late 80s and again after it was strengthened in the late 90s. It took several years for the murder rate to fall back down below the years when the control was passed.

Gun control laws do not lower crime. They divert police resources towards useless enforcement and disarm people who aren't likely to break the law.
 
2013-01-27 12:58:46 PM
Whew! Now we don't have to ban guns, only video games!
 
2013-01-27 12:58:57 PM

JosephFinn: Wow. It's almost like the gun manufacturers weren't simply selling their murder weapons in other cities to be transported to Chicago for murders.


Your suggestion is interesting, but it must be weighed against the fact that you are an unrepentant liar.
 
2013-01-27 12:59:15 PM
Gun violence is a symptom.
Gun availability is a causality.
Others are health, economy, social, education.
Gun availability, can be mitigated directly and quickly. While we work on the other more complicated issues.
The straw man works to subvert this simplicity
 
2013-01-27 12:59:37 PM
I could kill for some deep-dish pizza right now.
 
2013-01-27 01:00:08 PM

Mrbogey: . It took several years for the murder rate to fall back down below the years when the control was passed.


It's almost as if gun bans don't have an immediate effect. Whodathunk .
 
2013-01-27 01:00:28 PM

JosephFinn: Wow. It's almost like the gun manufacturers weren't simply selling their murder weapons in other cities to be transported to Chicago for murders.


So the manufacturer of a legal product that sells them in accordance with all applicable laws is also responsible for illegal usage and any illegal transfers that occurred along the way?
 
2013-01-27 01:00:33 PM
Why do "Gun-nuts" refuse to accept any sort of restriction? Because the anti-gun lobby will NEVER stop pushing for more restrictions. Even if they agree that the restrictions are reasonable, the people pushing for the restrictions will steamroll past the point of 'reasonable.'

I propose we re-write the 2nd amendment to the following

No restriction placed upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall exceed the restriction placed upon law enforcement within the country."


After all, a police officer has no greater legal authority to use deadly force to protect their life than any other law-abiding citizen. Also if you want police officers to be 'better armed' than the people they are supposed to 'protect and serve', namely law-abiding citizens, then the role of the police must be oppression rather than protection. If the police can't have 'assault rifles' then neither can you. If the police can have a handgun, then you can too.

How's that? You'll find these 'gun nuts' willing to give up their 'assault rifles' under such a condition, because there is a standard that adjusts with the times.
 
2013-01-27 01:00:53 PM
Most of Africa has no gun laws and little taxes, let's move there
 
2013-01-27 01:01:03 PM
Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?
 
2013-01-27 01:02:00 PM

JosephFinn: Wow. It's almost like the gun manufacturers weren't simply selling their murder weapons in other cities to be transported to Chicago for murders.


So what you're saying is that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

Check...
 
2013-01-27 01:02:40 PM

RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?


Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?
 
2013-01-27 01:04:20 PM

Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?


Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?
 
2013-01-27 01:06:27 PM

Securitywyrm: Why do "Gun-nuts" refuse to accept any sort of restriction? Because the anti-gun lobby will NEVER stop pushing for more restrictions. Even if they agree that the restrictions are reasonable, the people pushing for the restrictions will steamroll past the point of 'reasonable.'

I propose we re-write the 2nd amendment to the following

No restriction placed upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall exceed the restriction placed upon law enforcement within the country."

After all, a police officer has no greater legal authority to use deadly force to protect their life than any other law-abiding citizen. Also if you want police officers to be 'better armed' than the people they are supposed to 'protect and serve', namely law-abiding citizens, then the role of the police must be oppression rather than protection. If the police can't have 'assault rifles' then neither can you. If the police can have a handgun, then you can too.

How's that? You'll find these 'gun nuts' willing to give up their 'assault rifles' under such a condition, because there is a standard that adjusts with the times.


Except the average person is generally trying to avoid dangerous situations and has the gun as a method of last resort. The law enforcement officer is specifically meant to put himself in more dangerous situations so that the average citizen doesn't have to. I'm fine with cops and military having more powerful weapons than civilians.
 
2013-01-27 01:06:30 PM
How did the words "hunter" or "hunting" ever enter this discussion? [insert insult here]

Reminds me of Dr Susan Gratia's testimony over the Luby's massacre:

Link


In Chicago, the citizens have been stripped of their ability to protect themselves and their family. Why would anyone possibly want to make it easier for someone to rape women?

Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

American playwright David Mamet explains the folly of gun control laws: Link
 
2013-01-27 01:06:59 PM

edmo: Four shootings that should have had at least a dozen victims each if it were not for those silly laws.


Well that's a stretch.

LarryDan43: JosephFinn: Wow. It's almost like the gun manufacturers weren't simply selling their murder weapons in other cities to be transported to Chicago for murders.

Hey now, only a very small percentage of gun dealers is providing the majority of weapons to criminals. Of course the NRA has helped write legislation that makes it nearly impossible to go after those dealers. But that's good, you see if we can get more guns in the hands of criminals, then law abiding citizens will have no choice but to arm themselves in order to be safe. That creates more demand for guns and more jobs, which is good for the economy.


When a gun is recovered from a crime scene, it's possible to trace it to the dealer that sold it. From there you can follow the steps to see if there is a choke point on straw purchases or illegal sales.
 
2013-01-27 01:08:07 PM
I dunno about anyone else, but at least two of my pistols are designed for easy concealed carry, and are meant strictly for anti-personnel work, not for hunting.
 
2013-01-27 01:08:20 PM

RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?

Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?


I don't know. Do you?
 
2013-01-27 01:08:49 PM

OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.


Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.
 
2013-01-27 01:10:39 PM

jaytkay: OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.


Oh, what do you know that someone in Gainesville, FL might not.

*checks profile*

Oh.

Say, know of any good places to get a pizza or an Italian Beef?
 
2013-01-27 01:11:06 PM
It's clearly time to outlaw murder and attempted murder.
 
2013-01-27 01:12:54 PM

syrynxx: bronyaur1: the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

No, dumbass.  The point is that gun restrictions have a negligible impact on gun violence. Although I think if you use 'too stupid to breed' as an insult, you shouldn't have picked a nym that paints you as someone unlikely to ever breed or even be given the opportunity.




My screen name has nothing to do with My Little Pony, but you apparently aren't bright enough or have had sufficient life experience to have assumed any other possibility.

But apart from that, please do explain how a single example might "prove" that "gun restrictions Have a negligle effect on gun violence.". In particular, Captain Logic, please share with us your data on what Chicago gun violence rates would have been in the absence of the extant pursuit of gun limitations? Is it that gun violence would be the same? If this is your claim, what actual quantitative evidence do you provide for it?

Or..... Are you utterly unable to do anything but sputter because you have nothing to back up your argument?

Quo erat demonstratum, you dumbfarks. Your baseless and pathetic claims are precisely proving MY claim that none of you spouting this moronic talking point comprehends what a weak argument it makes.
 
2013-01-27 01:14:19 PM

Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?

Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?

I don't know. Do you?


No, that's why I'm asking
 
2013-01-27 01:17:21 PM
THEY HAD A STABBING?!!!!
Well, there ya go...
We gotta get rid of those evil knives too!
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/british-doctors-call-for-ban - on-long-kitchen-knives-to-end-stabbings/

Oh, BTW... how many of those shootings were done with soon-to-be-banned...again assault rifles?
 
2013-01-27 01:18:20 PM

jaytkay: OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.


Utter bullshiat. And the idea that crime has spiked because of Chicago's ban being overturned is BS as well. Chicago has no gun stores, and anyone who wants to legally possess a handgun gun in Chicago has to attend two classes that by design are not allowed to be taught in the city limits (because of the de facto ban on firing ranges), pay hundreds of dollars, and get fingerprinted.

Rahm Emanuel also dissolved the city's tactical gang response teams, which would go in and saturate high crime areas when violence flared up, essentially forcing the gangs to lay low and not retaliate against each other. Their brilliant new strategy involves going after restaurants and liquor stores with municipal code violations.
 
2013-01-27 01:18:34 PM

Pichu0102: Make it harder to get new guns, encourage an alternative of less than lethal self protection measures. Why is this bad?


Because people who regulate guns to get their jollies just can't resist the temptation to ban or restrict less-lethal weapons. A device like the Taser has no lobby and no sporting use, so it's already banned or restricted in many places.

The second amendment, when reduced to the brass tacks, is about preventing the fed from robbing states and individuals of the ability to defend themselves against an armed threat.
Assault rifles, shotguns and handguns have a military use. Carbines like the AR-15 can defend you against gunmen, are often used in sport shooting, and can put meat on the table. So their lobbies and owners defend them fiercely.

Taser's... Can't do any of that. They are self defense only and limited (often unreliable), and then you've got the legal and bureaucratic issues.
No one speaks up for them.

/I agree its a good plan to encourage LLW's, and I believe fewer people would buy guns if they had an alternative.
/but we need to get the troll out from under the path to owning those alternatives or nothings happening.
 
2013-01-27 01:19:27 PM

Mrtraveler01: jaytkay: OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.

Oh, what do you know that someone in Gainesville, FL might not.

*checks profile*

Oh.

Say, know of any good places to get a pizza or an Italian Beef?


Johnnies in Elmwood park for beef Gino's East for pizza
/Gene and Jude's for hotdogs in River Grove(not far from Johnnies)
 
2013-01-27 01:19:56 PM
Gun laws and restrictions are part of an effective strategy to prevent gun violence. Canadians have more hurdles to owning certain classes of arms, but can still own them. Compare gun related deaths between the two countries, I bet no one even needs to look it up to know that laws and regulations can work.

It's not about banning weapons, it's about regulating them to balance public safety and ownership. You can have both respectively if y'all could stop this inane partisan douchery.
 
2013-01-27 01:20:33 PM
Chicago, all the proof in the world that you need that strict gun laws raise the murder rate.

How many people will be sacrificed to the alter of gun demonization in New York, Chicago and Washington DC before they realize that their strict gun laws are mainly hurting their own citizens? It's okay kids, your rights will continue to be slaughtered in the name of safety, right along with your neighbors.

Can't look at the actual culprits behind murder, you know the murderers, because that would be bad for re-election.
 
2013-01-27 01:20:49 PM
Thanks Cyrus for sticking that tune in there you ruined the thread for me "shakes fist"
 
2013-01-27 01:22:08 PM

Mrtraveler01: Say, know of any good places to get a pizza or an Italian Beef?


Pequod's Pizza

Italian Beef, I dunno, that's not my thing.
 
2013-01-27 01:22:16 PM

RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?

Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?

I don't know. Do you?

No, that's why I'm asking


Dude, any second they're going to start yelling racism and it's game over from there.

Don't bother.
 
2013-01-27 01:22:26 PM

DogBoyTheCat: THEY HAD A STABBING?!!!!
Well, there ya go...
We gotta get rid of those evil knives too!
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/british-doctors-call-for-ban - on-long-kitchen-knives-to-end-stabbings/

Oh, BTW... how many of those shootings were done with soon-to-be-banned...again assault rifles?


I think a ban of those is a waste of time, but I also think it's silly that people are getting upset because they need an assault rifle for self-defense.

No you don't, it's just a toy. I'm perfectly fine with you guys wanting to keep them but stop kidding me telling me you need these for self-defense or hunting and just tell me it's a toy.
 
2013-01-27 01:22:32 PM

way south: Pichu0102: Make it harder to get new guns, encourage an alternative of less than lethal self protection measures. Why is this bad?

Because people who regulate guns to get their jollies just can't resist the temptation to ban or restrict less-lethal weapons. A device like the Taser has no lobby and no sporting use, so it's already banned or restricted in many places.

The second amendment, when reduced to the brass tacks, is about preventing the fed from robbing states and individuals of the ability to defend themselves against an armed threat.
Assault rifles, shotguns and handguns have a military use. Carbines like the AR-15 can defend you against gunmen, are often used in sport shooting, and can put meat on the table. So their lobbies and owners defend them fiercely.

Taser's... Can't do any of that. They are self defense only and limited (often unreliable), and then you've got the legal and bureaucratic issues.
No one speaks up for them.

/I agree its a good plan to encourage LLW's, and I believe fewer people would buy guns if they had an alternative.
/but we need to get the troll out from under the path to owning those alternatives or nothings happening.


Pepper spray is also banned in Washington DC.

Greylight: Gun laws and restrictions are part of an effective strategy to prevent gun violence. Canadians have more hurdles to owning certain classes of arms, but can still own them. Compare gun related deaths between the two countries, I bet no one even needs to look it up to know that laws and regulations can work.

It's not about banning weapons, it's about regulating them to balance public safety and ownership. You can have both respectively if y'all could stop this inane partisan douchery.


Canada doesn't have a retarded and costly drug war, nor do they have nearly as big of a gang problem in their inner cities.
 
2013-01-27 01:22:52 PM
You can pry my penis from my cold dead hands.
 
2013-01-27 01:23:41 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Johnnies in Elmwood park for beef Gino's East for pizza


I've seen Al's Beef on TV. Is that any good by comparison?

And the only place I've eaten deep-dish wise is Giorodano's. How does Gino's East compare to that?
 
2013-01-27 01:23:57 PM
Chicago is the NRA's straw man. Chicago's murder rate is about 16th in the nation for the roughly 70 cities with more than 250,000 people. Miami, Cleveland, Memphis, Atlanta, and New Orleans all have higher homicide rates. But since Chicago has 2,000,000 more people than those gun loving cities the raw number of homicides is higher.
 
2013-01-27 01:24:11 PM

onyxruby: Chicago, all the proof in the world that you need that strict gun laws raise the murder rate.


A single example in the absence of a counterfactual is a "proof" in your world?

You live in a very poorly educated world.
 
2013-01-27 01:24:39 PM

Molavian: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?

Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?

I don't know. Do you?

No, that's why I'm asking

Dude, any second they're going to start yelling racism and it's game over from there.

Don't bother.


Do go on.

Is this about the Black "culture"?
 
2013-01-27 01:25:08 PM

NeoCortex42: Securitywyrm: Why do "Gun-nuts" refuse to accept any sort of restriction? Because the anti-gun lobby will NEVER stop pushing for more restrictions. Even if they agree that the restrictions are reasonable, the people pushing for the restrictions will steamroll past the point of 'reasonable.'

I propose we re-write the 2nd amendment to the following

No restriction placed upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall exceed the restriction placed upon law enforcement within the country."

After all, a police officer has no greater legal authority to use deadly force to protect their life than any other law-abiding citizen. Also if you want police officers to be 'better armed' than the people they are supposed to 'protect and serve', namely law-abiding citizens, then the role of the police must be oppression rather than protection. If the police can't have 'assault rifles' then neither can you. If the police can have a handgun, then you can too.

How's that? You'll find these 'gun nuts' willing to give up their 'assault rifles' under such a condition, because there is a standard that adjusts with the times.

Except the average person is generally trying to avoid dangerous situations and has the gun as a method of last resort. The law enforcement officer is specifically meant to put himself in more dangerous situations so that the average citizen doesn't have to. I'm fine with cops and military having more powerful weapons than civilians.


Well, I'm not. The military is one thing, but consider this. If the military is then used for law enforcement, it grants the right of the people to arm to the teeth because of this standard.
Also: Crimes don't happen around police officers, police officers head towards crime. Ask any police officer, how often do they arrive at a crime scene to 'stop the criminal' and how many times do they arrive to do clean-up?
Goblins breaking into your house are not a protected species.
 
2013-01-27 01:25:11 PM

vpb: Somacandra: Gee, its almost as if the reality of guns in an urban setting (where everyone is spatially compressed and differential social problems are thus magnified) is far different from the reality of guns in a rural setting.

Sure it is, that's why cities need stricter gun control than rural areas.  The only real use for a gun in a city is as a weapon against people.  There aren't any deer or quail.


Right, because if you live in the city it's totally impossible to ever get out of it for the weekend. Sounds like urban black people problems to me.
 
2013-01-27 01:26:25 PM

cameroncrazy1984: It's almost as if gun bans don't have an immediate effect. Whodathunk .


When there's a trend downward and when it jumps up right around the time the ban takes effect, most would be hesitant to consider bans a success.
 
2013-01-27 01:26:48 PM
Yes. It's not like Chicago or New York ever had a history of criminal violence that led to their increasingly strict laws and regulations. Clearly their kneejerk lieberal moonbattery is to blame.
 
2013-01-27 01:26:53 PM

EvilByte: Chicago is the NRA's straw man. Chicago's murder rate is about 16th in the nation for the roughly 70 cities with more than 250,000 people. Miami, Cleveland, Memphis, Atlanta, and New Orleans all have higher homicide rates. But since Chicago has 2,000,000 more people than those gun loving cities the raw number of homicides is higher.


And they can't use NYC because crime there is at a record low.

I live in St. Louis so I always laugh when I hear about crime problems plaguing a city that's 3 times as big in area.
 
2013-01-27 01:27:51 PM

jaytkay: Mrtraveler01: Say, know of any good places to get a pizza or an Italian Beef?

Pequod's Pizza

Italian Beef, I dunno, that's not my thing.


Damn that looks good.

Screw the gun thread, I'm hungry for pizza now.
 
2013-01-27 01:28:21 PM

LowbrowDeluxe: Yes. It's not like Chicago or New York ever had a history of criminal violence that led to their increasingly strict laws and regulations. Clearly their kneejerk lieberal moonbattery is to blame.


It could be both....
 
2013-01-27 01:29:36 PM

Fark It: jaytkay: OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.

Utter bullshiat. And the idea that crime has spiked because of Chicago's ban being overturned is BS as well. Chicago has no gun stores, and anyone who wants to legally possess a handgun gun in Chicago has to attend two classes that by design are not allowed to be taught in the city limits (because of the de facto ban on firing ranges), pay hundreds of dollars, and get fingerprinted.

Rahm Emanuel also dissolved the city's tactical gang response teams, which would go in and saturate high crime areas when violence flared up, essentially forcing the gangs to lay low and not retaliate against each other. Their brilliant new strategy involves going after restaurants and liquor stores with municipal code violations.


The gangs(order with a bit of chaos at times) are not the problem in a sense, it's many gang members from multiple gangs grouping up and going rogue called cliqs/clicks(no order all out chaos) against anyone(even their own gang) who mess with their drug spots.
Well atleast on the Westside it's like that.
 
2013-01-27 01:30:13 PM
Do people still think that Chicago's violence is because of guns? Sometimes the racist explanation is the correct one, like it or not.
 
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