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(Breitbart.com)   Two suburban housewives are led away in handcuffs for refusing to let smart meters be hooked to their homes. Carry on, citizen   (breitbart.com) divider line 122
    More: Scary, smart meters, handcuffs, energy meter, Chicago metropolitan area, The Blaze  
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18901 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 8:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-01-27 03:00:54 AM
15 votes:
Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.
2013-01-27 08:40:35 AM
6 votes:
It's quite simple: if you refuse to allow the power company to install smart meters, the power company should have no obligation to provide your house with power.

All this nonsense about EMF "sensitivity" makes me realize that some people are blithering idiots. Get off our planet, you freakin moran's!
2013-01-27 08:13:11 AM
5 votes:
Considering the source, am I right to assume that they left out some parts of this story and changed the context of it to suit their worldview?
2013-01-27 09:25:23 AM
4 votes:

This About That: 1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.


That can be done by "Automatic Meter Reading" meters. Smart meters are an all together different type of animal.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Also done by AMRs, which typically record your usage per hour and send the information back to the utility. Whether the consumer saves any money is debatable. Peaks in electricity demand happen when they do because those are the most convenient times for people to use their appliances. Unless you feel like watching TV and cooking at 3am, chances are you're not going to adjust your usage. On the other hand utilities can now charge a "peak time" premium, because fark you, they can.

As for actual Smart Meters, the name usually refers to a meter which collects real time usage information (as opposed to hour by hour) and has a two-way communication system, so the utility (or a malicious 3rd party) can, for example remotely shut off your power, because fark you, they can.

Now, the other point about real time information that the utility company can really see what's going on inside your house. They know when you wake up, they know when you leave the house, when you come home, when you watch TV and when you go to bed. Different appliances have slightly different load characteristics, especially when starting up or shutting down, so you can tell whether somebody has just turned on their TV or they microwave, even if they both draw the same amount of power. What are utilities going to do with all that interesting data?

The fact is that smart meters are a bit too smart for their own good. The beneficial stuff can all be done using simpler technology.
2013-01-27 06:35:12 AM
4 votes:

Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.


"Doctor, doctor! I feel like i'm falling apart",
"I see, must be the smart meter in your house causing your DNA to break down, surprisingly common, yes I can see your arm is turning into some kind of paste."

No one's mentioned it yet, so let me ask. Since this is a Breitbart link how do we know that 1. it's not entirely fabricated, 2. if it's true it's not because the women attacked people?

I'll admit that some of these smart meter installing practices seem a bit shady, but them I'm not fool enough to fail to recognise that all my sources on it are crazy nutjobs who have a vested interest in making their practices seem a bit shady.
2013-01-27 09:22:13 AM
3 votes:

HoneyDog: You made the claim. You supply the evidence.

You claim I made it up, PROVE IT.


And we're done here.
2013-01-27 09:17:19 AM
3 votes:

HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.


You made the claim. You supply the evidence.
2013-01-27 08:25:42 AM
3 votes:

mrlewish: Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.


Actually...

media.thereadystore.com
Seriously, put it around the meter.
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-27 07:15:12 AM
3 votes:

mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.


I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.
2013-01-27 06:36:05 AM
3 votes:

Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.


My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.
2013-01-27 03:56:11 AM
3 votes:

Lsherm: The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin. I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.


I'm a fan of big ol' farmhouses, but insulation didn't seem to be such a big priority back then. Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.
2013-01-27 12:08:27 PM
2 votes:
Seen from the 99%er viewpoint, this sucks and will continue to suck. A utility is a natural monopoly because they built (or bought) the infrastructure to deliver the service to your house, and local utility commissions "protect the public interest" by setting rates that are "fair and balanced". This concept doesn't obtain in situations where the CEO of the power company is married to the sister of the utility commission, but hey who's complaining. It's just like compulsory auto insurance: legalized extortion. But really, this is no new news in America. Even the youngest among us can realize that populations exist increasingly for the benefit of the rich. And those of us over 40? Sh*t dog, good luck having any liberty at all in 50 years.

udhq is right - the only way to be free from the utility company's policies is to disconnect from the grid.
2013-01-27 11:36:52 AM
2 votes:
Alright...I work at a public power utility. I was on the team to evaluate a business case for deploying smart meters. We have a test center with different types of smart meters to learn more about their behaviors. We've also disassembled a few.

The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs. Item two allows us to respond to outage faster. The faster we get the power back on, the faster we start earning revenue again.

The ability to do a remote power on/off is available as an option on many meters. It's essentially a relay switch within the meter. The one I'm most familiar with can only be remotely powered on/off a few times before the meter has to be replaced. This option has to be specifically ordered with the meter and it is about $100 extra per meter. We considered them for customers who have a history of nonpayment.

The ability to watch the power load curves throughout the day is another optional setting. Yes, we can probably infer when you wake up, leave, come home, etc. But unless we are actually watching your house, we would be guessing, Yes, we can infer when your dryer or stove went on. But we don't know unless we see you turn it on or you put sensors on your appliances that you allowed to be hooked to your smart meter and report it to us. We don't have the time nor the people to monitor things like this. We have enough problems dealing with federal regulations and keeping the power on.

Unless you give us the ability, we cannot turn on or off your AC. You would need to put a remote control device on your AC and then give us access to it.

Your microwave puts out more radiation than the meter does.

Security of meter data is a huge issue and I'm not convinced they have it locked down yet. Could someone hack the meter and shut it down? Quite possibly. Would someone take the time to hack one person at a time? Probably not. They would probably try to kill a few thousand meters at once. Or just attack the transmission grid itself.

For most utilities, we own everything up to the meter. The meter socket, the weatherhead, and the line down to the service panel belong to the customer. We retain the right to access and maintain our equipment, including the meter. If we find the customer equipment to be damaged and a danger, we will remove our meter, disconnect the service line, and will not reenergize the house until repairs are made and inspected.

For our utility, the thought behind giving people access to their load data is so that they can choose to conserve energy or not. We would just be providing data and answering questions on said data. The final result of our study was that installing smart meters was a break even proposition over a 15 year pay back. We almost pulled the trigger on the project, but we needed to replace a few IT systems first to handle the amount of data. We'll probably do something in afew years.
2013-01-27 09:27:04 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.

Nope, I don't think that is what is behind the smart meters. They power company thinks they can save money using them. Despite its simplicity, a uniform wireless smart meter network is actually more expensive to run and offers few or no revenue opportunities to a utility to offset the cost of installation.


Huh? My "dumb" meter has been on my house for 40 year. They have been paying someone for 40 years to come out and read it. How many of these foot soldiers does it take to cover a town? And how many days does it take?

Now take the initial cost of the meter, installation, and equipment to read. Divide that over another 40 years eliminating the salary of all those foot soldiers because you can now read the entire town with one truck, in a day.

If they are going "full network", they are most likely buying time off of a municipalities, or will be selling time on theirs to the municipality/other utilities.

This can be a revenue generator and a cost saver, plain and simple
2013-01-27 09:15:30 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: You know there is a difference between a smart meter and a smart thermostat, right? The smart meter records your power usage as a function of the time of day, and the smart thermostat changes your AC/heat usage based on the times that you program into it. The meter does not control the thermostat - you do.

NOOOOOO, I would have never figured that. Of course I know that. I was responding to the fool that said I had the prerogative to leave my AC on during the day. I wasn't trying to compare the PROGRAMMABLE thermostat to a smart meter.


I think you should stop posting now.
2013-01-27 09:10:04 AM
2 votes:
What I found disturbing was that one of the women was arrested for filming the police.
2013-01-27 09:09:00 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


You know there is a difference between a smart meter and a smart thermostat, right? The smart meter records your power usage as a function of the time of day, and the smart thermostat changes your AC/heat usage based on the times that you program into it. The meter does not control the thermostat - you do.
2013-01-27 09:02:32 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.


Yes, and they can turn off all the lights and turn off your TV  to MSNBC anytime they want.

If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.
2013-01-27 08:58:33 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


What the HELL are you talking about???
2013-01-27 08:48:42 AM
2 votes:
Obviously they are misguided and should allow the smart meters on their property.
But why are they arresting people? Why not simply cut off their electric service or automatically start charging them the monthly manual fee, which is ridiculously high.

Its not right to arrest people who dont want the service.
2013-01-27 08:43:56 AM
2 votes:

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Umm, the power company can't use the smart meter to, for example, change the temperature on the thermostat in your house. They just keep track of all the times you adjust it, and accordingly, adjust your bill. You know that, right?

/Or is my sarcasm meter broken this morning?
2013-01-27 08:32:13 AM
2 votes:
Smart meters as in the digital ones? Lolol suuuuuure it's causing you a list of health problems a mile long and I'm the queen of France.
2013-01-27 08:31:00 AM
2 votes:
When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.
2013-01-27 08:28:01 AM
2 votes:
I hope that subby is posting this so that we can mock it and not because he actually believes this crap.
2013-01-27 03:20:14 AM
2 votes:

This About That: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand,


"Hey, we could have gotten .02 more a kilowatt hr. for that!" "Now we CAN! And tell the meter readers to stay home this year." Yay, progress. So, are these mandatory on commercial accounts, too?
2013-01-27 02:48:14 AM
2 votes:
www.examiner.com

You'd jail your sisters for refusing to submit to the demands of the wealthy and powerful? I'm impressed, officer.
2013-01-28 02:16:05 AM
1 votes:

italie:
Funny, last I checked the Bureau of Prisons was broke, and borrowing beds from state institutions.


I'm so glad you came back!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
The Land of the Free (tm) leads the world in stuffing it's population into cages.

Again, what are you here to argue for? You're getting your surveillance. You won't talk me into embracing it and you wouldn't benefit whether you did or not.
2013-01-28 12:10:10 AM
1 votes:

italie: I'm not contradicting in any way, because I don't feel a smart meter is an unwelcome invasion of privacy. It's also something that I could choose to bypass, leaving me in complete control of said privacy. Power is not a right allotted to me in the constitution, it's a luxury that I am afforded to choose.


Well, the forces at play are working in your favor. You'll very likely get the real-time smart meter you desire. One wonders what your motive is to hit the campaign trail here to try and shush down silly folks like me who don't want such gifts.

// If the government really is planning to lockup it's populace, you'd think they would be building more prisons about now....

Except... oh, right. They are.
2013-01-27 10:13:35 PM
1 votes:

italie: If we really believe in the whole "We the people" thing, our problems are a lot deeper than gun control and electricity management. We run this country. We are the government. Hording guns or blocking meter installations aren't the answer to the problem, they are the start of a new one.

I've been to other countries. We don't have it all that bad. If someone wants to require a fancy meter on my house for me to get power, so be it. If the government has the ability to tell when I'm taking a shait, so be it. If they arbitrarily and unreasonably decide to cut my power, then I have an issue. If I want to prevent that scenario, I have two decent options. Stand up with my fellow citizens and fight it in a democratic manner, or cut myself off the grid and make my own power.

Shooting my AK into the sky while shouting FRREEEEEEDDDOOOOMMMMM just doesn't seem like it accomplishes much anything of point, nor does it produce power.


Well, you contradict yourself. You snort at the idea of "We The People", but then go on to claim that we're still in charge even if we're powerless to prevent incessant encroachment of our privacy and liberty.

Speak for yourself when you say you don't mind having a compulsory GPS probe up your ass. It's not patriotic to capitulate. How easily you give lip service to the rationale that the capabilities of the new meters, and by extension similar technological intrusions, provide worthwhile advantages. No advantages are worth allowing your privacy and liberty to be chipped away. Now I've done it. Those are probably words the NSA flags.

Why does the utility company need real-time data? Because fark you, that's why. They could make power saving decisions based on hourly readings. They could provide the existing level of service with one reading per billing period. But no, it's real-time, it's compulsory, and there's no opt-out. Because fark you. They could accommodate the tiny tiny number of people who want their analog meters, but no. Seriously no, and we'll send armed goons to drag you away to a cage if you resist, citizen. Enjoy your momentary hope of seeing a drop in your utilities bill. You weren't given any promises, and you're not entitled to promises. Whatcha going to do about it now? We took your guns, hahahaha!
2013-01-27 08:35:11 PM
1 votes:

MrSteve007:
When the meter registers a sudden ~6.5kw load, it knows that statistically that's an electric hotwater heater. When it registers a 4.7kw load, that's an electric dyer. Refrigerators are 24/7 0.15kw cycling loads, etc.

I've done outlet monitoring of all of my appliances, and also have installed a TED 5000 meter to monitor the live consumption and output of my PV array and home loads. The utility's smart meter nails my consumption almost to a "T"


Statistical analysis of the bumps in your power load at particular times could tell someone if you took an extra-long shower. It could tell if you had no toast, regular toast, dark toast or extra toast depending on how many times you started the toaster, and whether you stayed later than usual for breakfast. Suppose it was known that you almost always have toast on Saturday and Sunday mornings because you like toast when you're hung over from drinking at the clubs the night before. Say there was a riot or protest one Friday night, and government face-recognition cameras identified you as being within the "Suspended Free-Speech Zone". Say your alibi was that you were at a bar watching the riots on TV, but they can point out that you didn't have toast the next morning, so you didn't seem to have been drinking that night. They would use this to erode your credibility in court, or as enough circumstantial evidence to subpoena video from within the pub you said you were at, the street outside the pub, your street, or even the "for insurance only" video cameras (hypothetically) embedded in all of your smoke detectors just to confirm that toast business in living color.

But then, I'm told I'm a nut and that the government has sufficient respect for it's citizen's privacy that it would never think of such a thing, or at the very least, it would feel terribly ashamed of itself.
2013-01-27 08:12:00 PM
1 votes:

Jade E.: MrSteve007: Breaks things down like this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x214]

Is that "break down" one of those useless statistical estimates that tells you nothing about your individual use, or do you have measurement devices on each outlet and switch?

If so, can you link what you use? Last time I looked into a setup like that I could only find ones designed for data centers (rack mount PDU form factor), so rewiring to use them would have cost a fortune.

I just searched again, and still can't find someone that just sells monitoring outlets and switches for residential use. There's like 20 companies that are *almost* there, as long as you only want outlets, not switches. And you don't care to monitor anything other than a 120v outlet, so you're ignoring your actual big energy uses. And you want to send your data to their 'cloud' service. Or, you know, write your own software. This doesn't seem like it should be that hard.


Well, as you see, the breakdown shows that lighting is the smallest load I have in my house. Considering in most homes, it's about 25%, the utility's "smart meter" is quite good at realizing what type of loads cycle on and off over the day. Since my lighting is all LED or CFL, it makes sense that my loads are about 2% of total consumption.

When the meter registers a sudden ~6.5kw load, it knows that statistically that's an electric hotwater heater. When it registers a 4.7kw load, that's an electric dyer. Refrigerators are 24/7 0.15kw cycling loads, etc.

I've done outlet monitoring of all of my appliances, and also have installed a TED 5000 meter to monitor the live consumption and output of my PV array and home loads. The utility's smart meter nails my consumption almost to a "T"
2013-01-27 07:45:26 PM
1 votes:

Tor_Eckman: Austinoftx: -I know not all of them use the cellular telephone network. For those which do, it is a con.
-Ambiguous mention of fiber optic networking on your part; fiber is quite common in any data center.
-Good to know about surge susceptibility.
-Customer complaints are likely down because there is a strong sense of inevitability to the introduction of power meters. I hear they're even forcing their way onto private property with the police present, and arresting property "owners" who object.
-I do not trust you. Nor do I trust the kind of chaps who routinely demand these kinds of records. This IS the world we live in.

-Aaaand, I see what you did there. Suggesting that wireless utility meters somehow improve privacy. Personally, I would rather tolerate a meter reader walking up to my meter every 1-2-3 or 4 months than have a gadget attached to my wall that can plot out my daily and weekly routine down to the minute. Even if I trusted my shark-grinned leaders, there is the matter of criminals hacking systems that are secured by decree rather than technology.

You're a nut.


And so are the people who think crazy things like their location can be tracked via their cellphones, or gosh, that anyone would be interested in their call log, let alone recordings of their calls. And heavens, the hullabaloo over wireless toll-tags; the authorities promised they'd never use those to catch speeders! License-plate reading cameras are NOT a fishing expedition for insurance dogers! Black boxes in every car are ONLY for mechanical diagnostics! And what government agency even has the time to use Google to locate unlicensed swimming pools and outbuildings? Pish Posh, Sir! Surely the government gives NOT A HOOT! After all, history shows that governments who build systems capable of surveilling the citizenry NEVER exploit the resulting data for disclaimed purposes later! I'm sure the NSA is storing all of our internet activity so they can offer us a an online backup system! Every file transferred, every page viewed, every call recorded is so we can relive the good ole days!

...Actually, you'd have to be farking farking farking stupid to not notice a trend by now.
2013-01-27 07:33:14 PM
1 votes:
Spent two years working on the government Smart Grid project as a Project Manager.
Managed a large part of the $200M Project.
Prepared reports for the US Congress.

Didn't see a single posting here that had the whole truth.

It was designed with a good idea and will benefit most people.
What the government "Can" do with it and has enabled is very very scary.
Not theoretically scary. Planned scary.
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
2013-01-27 06:46:02 PM
1 votes:

Tor_Eckman: A few corrections/omissions:

My company's remote meters do not run over any cellular network. The actual reading device at the substation is connected directly to the line with no other means of communication. It reports back to our office (along with the rest of the substation telemetry) by fiber optic.

Customers have the ability to read their real-time usage with no extra connection to the meter.

We have been using them for about a decade, and there is no evidence that they are any more susceptible to surges than the old analogue meters.

Customer complaints regarding incorrect bills due to misreads and no reads have been virtually eliminated. No more estimated bills. Ever.

Many problems on the line can be diagnosed and pinpointed from the office. What used to take hours of patrolling can now take the few minutes it takes to ping all of the meters on an entire circuit at once.

Trust me, nobody gives a hoot about divining your daily routine by tracking your usage.

So the only somewhat legitimate negative is that there may be some things our meter readers used to see that they don't see any more.


-I know not all of them use the cellular telephone network. For those which do, it is a con.
-Ambiguous mention of fiber optic networking on your part; fiber is quite common in any data center.
-Good to know about surge susceptibility.
-Customer complaints are likely down because there is a strong sense of inevitability to the introduction of power meters. I hear they're even forcing their way onto private property with the police present, and arresting property "owners" who object.
-I do not trust you. Nor do I trust the kind of chaps who routinely demand these kinds of records. This IS the world we live in.

-Aaaand, I see what you did there. Suggesting that wireless utility meters somehow improve privacy. Personally, I would rather tolerate a meter reader walking up to my meter every 1-2-3 or 4 months than have a gadget attached to my wall that can plot out my daily and weekly routine down to the minute. Even if I trusted my shark-grinned leaders, there is the matter of criminals hacking systems that are secured by decree rather than technology.
2013-01-27 04:19:06 PM
1 votes:

BunkyBrewman: Curious... What was your total outlay for the ductless heat-pump, insulation, heat-pump water heater and solar panels?

How long will it take to recover the amount you've spent on those?  Have you created a schedule and graph for that?


Warning, math ahead (numbers are all inclusive and tax free):

Heat pump: $7,500
- fed rebate: -$2,250
- utility rebate: -$2,500

Out of pocket Cost: $2,750
Annual savings: $500
ROI: 5.5 years
--------------------
Insulation: $1,200
-fed rebate: -$360
-utility rebate: -$500

Out of pocket cost: $340
Annual savings: $60
ROI: 5.5 years
-------------------
HP water heater: $1,200
- fed rebate: -360
- utility rebate: $600

Out of pocket cost: $340
Annual savings $250
ROI: 1.5 years
-------------------
Solar panels: $23,000
- fed rebate: -$6,900
- annual state tariff (thru 2020): -$2,200
- annual utility savings: -$420

1st year cost: $13,480
ROI: 5.2 years
2013-01-27 02:13:39 PM
1 votes:
Here is something else you idiots probably don't farking know.

During periods of power usage the power company pays a different wholesale rate for
the power it buys. During the times of peak usage, the rate is highest. With the smart
grid technology, the power company can dynamically change the cost of your electricity
through out the day and bill you a higher rate during the coldest and warmest days. So
not only will you pay more for stabilizing the temperature of your home during the worst
hot and cold weather, you'll pay a substantially higher rate for that power. It will be
a double whammy that will put a smile on the faces of that power company executives.

So start taking it seriously or you farks deserve what you get.
2013-01-27 02:11:52 PM
1 votes:
The federal government has enormous control over the States with the DOE's Super Grid.
The federal government spent billion in bribe money to States to accept Smart Grids and
Smart Meters in opposition of public health and interest. Huge technology corporations
stand to benefit by $170 billion a year. Utilities will make a killing.


During peak demand the power company can turn off your appliances.

So when does peak demand occur? It occurs when the weather is the hottest or the coldest.
So the power company can turn off your furnace or air conditioner during the worst
imaginable weather. But why do they do this? One reason is because of an outdated
overloaded power grid the other is the power company often buys power and during peak
demand they pay the most. So they reduce peak demand and pocket an enormous profit.
2013-01-27 02:00:28 PM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.

Also, dogs have a higher body temperature. A temperature that is comfortable for us is likely a bit cold for them.
2013-01-27 01:58:52 PM
1 votes:
The women video recorded police on their own property and they were charged with felony wiretapping.

These women are not the ones that need arresting.
2013-01-27 01:12:25 PM
1 votes:
BANG...Smart meters reduce the chance of house fires. It will pop its breaker if it detects massive surging in the flow.
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
BANGSmart meters allow load shearing and grid adjustments. By knowing how much power is actually being consumed the network can then adjust the "pressure" they're applying to your grid, more to maintain the voltage or less to keep "evaporation" from occurring in the grid. The most inefficient part of commercial power distribution is the grid itself, it leaks like canvas fire hoses.
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.
BANGSmart meters reduce the number of employees who have to walk the grid. Not only does this reduce payroll but it reduces insurance. Think dogs and holes.
BANGSmart meters reduce YOUR cost, they use less power than regular meters and as regular meters get older they can error in increased reading.

Now, a couple argument points:
1. No trespass occurred, the power company has the right to enter your property to read the meter at any time and any attempt to block them is a class 1 misdemeanor.
2. It is illegal in Illinois to harass, annoy, distract or interrupt power company workers. No arguments to get around this, if you interrupt a power worker and it kills him OR you, it is YOUR fault.
3. The power company has the right to replace equipment as it sees fit for its purposes and use, that meter on your house is NOT YOURS and you have no control over it.
4. By sending in your first payment you signed a contract to agree with all the stipulations.
5. The RF produced by the meter is LESS than a garage door opener, it doesn't transmit continuously - it responds to the transceiver tool.
6. The only way you can win against a Chicago cop is to shoot them dead in the ten foot hole beside the running concrete truck when you trick them to the wrong address. Try anything else and you're farked either in court or when they find you.
2013-01-27 12:59:02 PM
1 votes:
Andrew Breitbart is dead.

/just makes me happy to say it, is all
2013-01-27 12:51:50 PM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise:

I have a hard time believing that a public utility is any more altruistic than a private company. They're both trying to maximize revenue while minimizing costs.


Depends on how they are setup. We're not allowed to profit. Everything we do is at cost and our budget/any rate increases has to be approved by the city.

So in theory, yes: we are trying to maximize what we can do with the money allotted us by keeping cost down in other areas.
2013-01-27 12:43:20 PM
1 votes:

Fade2black: James F. Campbell: bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?

Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power

Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!


That's not the only reason silly.

Think of how much money and time could be saved by not having to have people drive around to random neighborhoods and read these meters?
2013-01-27 12:36:34 PM
1 votes:

italie: Mrtraveler01: stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.

And they can inherently meter service remotely.


I can't remember if my router is property of At&t as well since I subscribe to their U-Verse service.

I want to say that I'm renting that one as well.
2013-01-27 12:35:36 PM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.


That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.
2013-01-27 12:34:03 PM
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01: stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.


And they can inherently meter service remotely.
2013-01-27 12:31:29 PM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.


Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.
2013-01-27 12:28:04 PM
1 votes:

phaseolus:
Thanks, now it makes more sense.

Out of curiosity, about the expensive meters with the remote disconnect option -- are they engineered to survive all of the spikes and noise you'd reasonably expect to see on the incoming power from nearby lightning strikes or whatever? What about the electronics on all of the meters? And since this technology's been around a few years now, has the hardware demonstrated that it's likely to pretty much forever like the old meters?


For the most part, they seem to weather surges and noise. We have lightning arresters, grounds, and capacitors all over the place to knock this down as much as possible. We also had the AMR (drive by style radio meters) and digital meters around for over a decade, and they do fine.

As for length of life...the analog meters don't last as long as people think. But we can rebuild them over and over again. Smart meters, not so much. We don't have enough data yet to figure out how hardy they are. An analog can last 30 years. Smart meters might have a life of 15 years, but we're not sure yet.

One thing about analog meters: people who go from analog to digital meters do see a usage spike. The analog meters, being mechanical, do have friction and inertia to overcome to turn the dials. That results in a lower power read. Digital doesn't have that issue, so a higher usage rate.
2013-01-27 12:26:28 PM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.


Doesn't matter. You don't need to *sign something* to enter into a contract. You used their service, you paid their bill, you've agreed to their terms.
2013-01-27 12:26:27 PM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.


The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.
2013-01-27 12:22:20 PM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: When you signed your contract with the utility company

What contract? I didn't say a contract for any of my utilities.


It's called "Terms of Service", and you don't have to sign it. You imply consent by VOLUNTARILY using their service.

Your local municipal code / zoning laws also give them right of way on eavesments.
2013-01-27 12:18:48 PM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.


First, when you called the power company, you were agreeing to an implicit contract.

Now, look at the back of your bill or statement. Read the tiny little words. When you made your first payment, you agreed to the TOS and sealed the contract.
2013-01-27 12:17:40 PM
1 votes:

machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.


Bald assertion. Cite your source.

machodonkeywrestler: If you believe the AG is looking out for you,you've got to be pathetically, comically, naive.


Yeah, the AG never takes up causes in the public interest! I don't know how it works in your state, but ours is generally pretty helpful, so your attempt to reverse my "zing" just made you look a bit retarded.
2013-01-27 12:09:02 PM
1 votes:
There's no constitutional right to electricity. Instead of arresting them though, the power company should just uninstall all meters and cut off electricity to their homes. If they don't want the electric company's services they can install solar panels or have a hamster generating electricity on a wheel or something. It would be interesting to see how long she can go without watching Fox News in her house.
2013-01-27 12:08:03 PM
1 votes:

BunkyBrewman: This isn't upgrading our power grid in the slightest. All it is doing is maximizing the amount of money the electric company can siphon off from you.

Our aging power grid (here in the Northeast) is still not completely repaired from a storm from late October. Talk about a joke. We're third farking world country when it comes to distributing energy. The German power grid has outages at an average rate of 21 minutes per year. (you read that right... an average of 21 minutes)


Yeah, mostly about that but it does keep meter readers from having to deal with assholes and dogs.

The home my ex-wife got in the divorce has 4 big dogs in a fenced yard and the only way they could read our meter was to come on the property. They would have to call in advance and someone would have to leave work to be on site when they arrived. It was a hassle for everybody involved and this will surely help resolve that problem. Not sure how much more money that'll make for Florida Power and Light though, but it's always about money to those folks.
2013-01-27 12:00:51 PM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.

I'll admit I didn't know that (a first on Fark for sure), however I'd say the fact that a trespass exemption is actually written in law is even more of an outrage!


Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?
2013-01-27 11:56:37 AM
1 votes:

Void_Beavis: I wonder which one of these idiots would vote for the massive tax increases and higher power costs, not to mention the environmental impact, of having to upgrade our aging power grid "dumbly" just so they can have their "rights". Which aren't even "rights" at all since the power company actually owns this equipment.

Something tells me none of them.


This isn't upgrading our power grid in the slightest.  All it is doing is maximizing the amount of money the electric company can siphon off from you.

Our aging power grid (here in the Northeast) is still not completely repaired from a storm from late October.  Talk about a joke.  We're third farking world country when it comes to distributing energy. The German power grid has outages at an average rate of 21 minutes per year. (you read that right... an average of 21 minutes)
2013-01-27 11:54:31 AM
1 votes:

roadmarks: Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.


I'll admit I didn't know that (a first on Fark for sure), however I'd say the fact that a trespass exemption is actually written in law is even more of an outrage!
2013-01-27 11:54:13 AM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Beretta3000: The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs.

Why should I be worried about your company's costs? Unless the power company is planning on passing those savings on to me in the form of a reduced bill (LOL ROFL)

What instead ends up happening, is that the cost savings of smart meters do not get passed to customers. People who opt out simply get charged extra. So, I'm paying the same rate to help the power company save money, and my neighbor (who doesn't have a smart meter) gets his rates jacked up just because fark you). So whether or not you submit to having a smart meter, you're still getting screwed and the power company wins.


For the private utilities, your point is dead on.

On the public utility side, we are trying to prevent future rate increases with this technology.
2013-01-27 11:53:31 AM
1 votes:

Bad_Seed: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.

You can't see the benefit of what amounts to a real time surveillance system inside people's homes? Well for one, lots of companies are willing to pay good money for that sort of information. You haven't noticed how all sorts of corporations are busy collecting every single scrap of data they can on people? You used to have to buy something by card, or type something into Google for them to get something. Now every time you switch something on, they get more info on you. Instead of a super secret department, there's a fine print clause in your contract saying they can use or sell your data in any way they wish.

I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I h ...

The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details o ...


You read that wrong... it said it can disconnect the meter, not the power. There's a difference there when it comes to smart meters. Disconnecting the meter and reconnecting it is useful for when the connection goes wonky (which happens a lot in a wireless connection). And seeing as electric meters are connected to the system as a tap, not as a break point, phaseolus is correct, the meter itself cannot interrupt the power. There is still a manual cutoff that they would need to send out a technician for. Having just resided the house, and gotten my meter replaced with a smart meter, and as a network engineer by trade, I was very interested in this device going in and was present at the wiring. The technician was very helpful in describing what exactly the process was for how it monitors and what information it delivers. And I never lost power when they were switching the meter, so yeah, there's no break point in these meters. All they do is tap into the flow of electricity coming in (or out, depending on how you view the theory of electricity and electron flow) and measure how fast it's going.
2013-01-27 11:51:09 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.


Oh for the love of Christ. No one is buying it. This was your Boobies and nothing seems to indicate it was tongue in cheek. This is perhaps one of the most stupid arguments I've seen on Fark in a very long time.

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


If you really were trying to come across as tongue in cheek, then you did a terrible job at it.
2013-01-27 11:50:37 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.


Yeah, after you were called on it. Here's your exact question(your Weeners).

How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

You were serious when you asked that question. When it was pointed out you were wrong you then proceeded to act as if that's not what you "really" meant. Now you're saying you were joking about it. No you weren't. And it's damn plain to see that you weren't.
2013-01-27 11:49:55 AM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Void_Beavis: And yes, the electric company owns those meters. It's their property. Like it or not they can do whatever they bloody well please with them. And if they have a court order (which they did in this case, hence the police escort) you legally have no recourse.

Well, they should have found a way to access their property without trespassing on someone else's property. This whole "We'll get a judge to let us break the law" thing is what people are up in arms about. They are trespassing on someone else's property.

Why is the electric company's property more important than their customer's* property?

*I use the term loosely, since "customer" implies a relationship where there's a choice.


Except for the fact that this has been argued in court and defeated. Many times.
2013-01-27 11:49:41 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: What the HELL are you talking about???

Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.

And as an aside, our local power company just was granted a rate increase. Why? Because so many of us were using our power wisely that they were losing money due to decreased demand. Fun little scenario: 1) urge people to use less so they save money, 2) people respond by getting more energy efficient gadgets and being wise with their power usage, 3) power company raises rates so all savings the people realized by following their original suggestions goes up in smoke.


Umm, quit talking, please. You're just making yourself look more stupid. A smart meter does not control the AC in your home. All it does is enable real time monitoring of your meter. People have explained this to you many times in this thread.
2013-01-27 11:48:49 AM
1 votes:

Vegetative reproduction: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mrtraveler01: And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.

Rf devices are usually pretty easy to break into. They're not concerned with what info the electric company has on them, they're worried that these devices essentially open up their data for the world to see. And quite honestly, the fees they must pay to maintain the same type of data collection they always had are absurdly high.

It is a lot easier to walk up to a new or old fashioned meter and see how fast it is spinning than to scan for an RF signal.


Can you do that from your car? Can you do it on several houses at once? Can you manually check meters as fast as a signal can travel?

Walking into the yard of dozens of people will attract attention, driving slowly down the street will not.
2013-01-27 11:48:09 AM
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Well, they should have found a way to access their property without trespassing on someone else's property. This whole "We'll get a judge to let us break the law" thing is what people are up in arms about. They are trespassing on someone else's property.

Why is the electric company's property more important than their customer's* property?

*I use the term loosely, since "customer" implies a relationship where there's a choice.


You are also using the term trespassing very loosely, since that implies illegal access. They could have chosen to keep their old meters and pay the fee, but refused. Or they could have chosen not to get electricity. Either was their right, but they did not have the right to stop the electric company accessing the meters. But since they still want electricity, they have to have a meter, and that meter is part of the utility easement.

From the Illinois Commerce Commission Rules Applicable to Electric and Natural Gas Utilities:
Under Theft of Services:
Tampering

Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.

Don't want to let them get to their meter? Don't get your electricity from them.
2013-01-27 11:47:19 AM
1 votes:
I wonder which one of these idiots would vote for the massive tax increases and higher power costs, not to mention the environmental impact, of having to upgrade our aging power grid "dumbly" just so they can have their "rights". Which aren't even "rights" at all since the power company actually owns this equipment.

Something tells me none of them.
2013-01-27 11:46:13 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.


So does your landlord not providing a key or meeting the meter reader in front of the building.
2013-01-27 11:45:26 AM
1 votes:

fredklein: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis.

One simple example: "People in this neighborhood turn on their TVs at 5:30. Maybe a business in that neighborhood might like to buy advertising at 5:31??"


If you're claiming that these things are monitoring individual appliances, that's a pretty extraordinary claim that I believes deserves a citation.
2013-01-27 11:43:43 AM
1 votes:

skylabdown: Private property rights are a nice fantasy.


To my knowledge, no one is forced to use public utilities, and the property easements that come along with them.
2013-01-27 11:43:24 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.


My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. Then when it was proven that they couldn't, you played it off as "that's not what I meant" and "I''m not that dumb" when your own comments show otherwise. Then you claim that you didn't actually sign anything like a contract and when it's shown that you don't have to and a verbal contract is enough for them to cut your power/read your meter/access your property you're still acting like a moron about it. This entire thread has been a big farking FAIL on your part and all you're doing is making yourself look foolish(which is pretty hard to do on Fark). Anybody reading through it can see that. And WhippingBoy is right, you should have stopped while you were ahead.
2013-01-27 11:40:01 AM
1 votes:
These women are not mentally competent to raise children. They should have been taken away and locked up a long time ago, along with everyone else who believes that the RF emitted by a smart meter is somehow going to kill them, when none of the other radiation emitting devices in their homes will.

Get a farking life, Breitbart. The world will be better when we round up your collection of drooling idiots, too.
2013-01-27 11:38:57 AM
1 votes:

Mechanicum: HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.

Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.


Correct. Additionally it's against the law to deny access to the power company to service their equipment on your property. And it's against the law to tamper with that equipment, or to threaten or perform violent acts to those service people. It's also against the law to allow your attack dog to guard that property, denying access to it.

Fact remains, these are laws. They've been in existence for quite some time. They've been challenged in court. If you don't like them, you may also challenge them or vote for someone who will repeal them in your legislature. But to wave your arms around claiming its a totalitarian takeover is not only disingenuous, it's asinine.
2013-01-27 11:32:08 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.


Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.
2013-01-27 11:25:44 AM
1 votes:
Smart meters that affect your health? This whole argument sounds very tin-foil hattish.

Security? Hey if a thief wants to know if you're home or not there's a much less sophisticated way of determining this called knocking on the door.

And yes, the electric company owns those meters. It's their property. Like it or not they can do whatever they bloody well please with them. And if they have a court order (which they did in this case, hence the police escort) you legally have no recourse.

Now if they damage your property, you can take them to court. But that's about it.

These people are morons.
2013-01-27 11:22:27 AM
1 votes:

Bad_Seed: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.

You can't see the benefit of what amounts to a real time surveillance system inside people's homes? Well for one, lots of companies are willing to pay good money for that sort of information. You haven't noticed how all sorts of corporations are busy collecting every single scrap of data they can on people? You used to have to buy something by card, or type something into Google for them to get something. Now every time you switch something on, they get more info on you. Instead of a super secret department, there's a fine print clause in your contract saying they can use or sell your data in any way they wish.

I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I h ...

The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details o ...


That's on the advance meters. You only install those on problem properties with multiple cutoffs. It's not economical to put an expensive cutoff relay on everyone. Again, it's a wireless meter reader. That is literally it, and the unwashed masses continue to prove themselves so dumb that helmets ought to be mandated.
2013-01-27 11:18:19 AM
1 votes:

Bad_Seed: The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details on how they do it.



Well, that's a surprise, and I stand corrected.

In that case, on this point I'll agree with your identification of the security risk of having this capability, and I'm still leery about whether it makes economic sense. It has to add like $100 to the price the utility pays for each meter.

And especially if it uses power semiconductors it damn well better be extremely robust and resistant to power surges. Imagine a routine thunderstorm coming through and frying every one of these in a city -- every house without power until every single one of the meters is replaced or retrofitted, what a nightmare that would be ... Hopefully there's a well written standard and compliance testing in place to make sure the meters aren't junk.
2013-01-27 11:15:35 AM
1 votes:
They do realize all that model does is send the number on the meter back to the power company? It doesn't have the relays to cut power, affect power or anything else? That takes a collar. It keeps them from having to send meter readers into contact with nutters like them. That's it.
2013-01-27 11:05:03 AM
1 votes:
Why can't they just move?

Isn't that the Libertarian argument for when you are not satisfied or don' like what your local or state government is doing?
2013-01-27 11:04:52 AM
1 votes:
If you really think the reason for installing these is anything other than some very rich people making very lucrative back room deals for the sole purpose of grabbing more cash from average citizens, I've got a bridge to sell you.

It's only a small bridge, but a bridge nonetheless.
2013-01-27 11:01:28 AM
1 votes:

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Yeah, because fark night workers right? I mean sure, you'd like to be taken care of after your late night car crash, but that'll just have to wait till tomorrow. See, our underpaid night workers like to sleep with the AC on, because it's hot during the day. And bright. But of course they should pay more for that privilege, right? Because the world operates exactly within your preconceived notions of what is normal right? Your experience is representative of everyone else's.


it is a fact that it costs more to generate electricity during peak demand times than during lower demand times. If I use more electricity during the evening, when it's cheaper to generate, why should I pay the same as the guy who uses more during the day? Smart meters will allow power companies to make that distinction. I have no problem with this. Fossil energy sources are going to run out, and the only way to make people understand that this is a real crisis is market pressures of various types. Then maybe they'll begin to understand why the time to research alternatives is NOW, not when we're out of coal and oil.
2013-01-27 10:51:10 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Then leave the AC on you dolt. He wasn't saying the power company could control these things, he was saying if you know more about your usage, you can adjust your habits.
2013-01-27 10:33:59 AM
1 votes:
In las vegas they were pushing thermostats that the power co. had override control over. As an example, they could raise your temperature set point remotely in the summer if they felt there was too much power being used in the area. It was a voluntary program and I never signed up for it.

Thermostat set at 71 in the winter and 72 in the summer. Setbacks at night, summer and winter. I don't want somebody else deciding I should sit in an 84 degree house in the summer.

And smart meters/data loggers can collect a lot of data. There seems to be an increasingly blurry line between using any data collected in any setting for good or for evil. And as this scenario illustrates very well, it is becoming more and more common to see what amounts to a surcharge placed on a persons privacy. From something as simple as swiping your grocery store card to get discounts at the register in trade for giving up a complete list of what food your family eats, which you can avoid if you pay the surcharge in extra food costs, to this type of meter/data logger which can paint an incomplete but interesting picture of a households lifestyle if analyzed that way, or by paying the surcharge so some other piece of the puzzle of your private life remains private. All this increasingly more common stuff leads to a world where more and more only those with enough money can live a private life and the rest of us live under the potential to be analyzed by unknown parties for unknown purposes, good or bad, at any time.

I don't worry about it much, but I see it and don't really like it just the same. Can't fix it. Can't afford to avoid it.

If you want to pursue your experiments with the goal of creating a human/dirty sweat sock hybrid that's yer biznezz. .
2013-01-27 10:33:27 AM
1 votes:

Bad_Seed: Now, the other point about real time information that the utility company can really see what's going on inside your house. They know when you wake up, they know when you leave the house, when you come home, when you watch TV and when you go to bed. Different appliances have slightly different load characteristics, especially when starting up or shutting down, so you can tell whether somebody has just turned on their TV or they microwave, even if they both draw the same amount of power. What are utilities going to do with all that interesting data?



Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.


Bad_Seed: so the utility (or a malicious 3rd party) can, for example remotely shut off your power, because fark you, they can.



I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I haven't noticed power meters suddenly growing twice as big as they used to be or brand new enclosures containing switchgear suddenly appearing for every handful of houses. And as seldom as the power to any particular dwelling is connected or disconnected I can't imagine how replacing all the existing manual disconnection hardware with relays would make economic sense for any power utility.

If I'm wrong and you actually have evidence that new power metering technology allows for remote disconnection, as opposed to speculation, please point me to the evidence and I'll happily stand corrected. (I'll also be surprised as hell, too, since it doesn't make any sense...)
2013-01-27 10:30:32 AM
1 votes:

eggrolls: Fissile: I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.

Seriously. Buy a propane tank and a solar array and shut your mouth.


==============

Or be really boot strappy, like Ayn Rand, and build your own generating plant in your backyard, supplied by coal from your own coal mine. People today are such whiny slackers. Gimme, gimme, gimme.....that's all they know.
2013-01-27 10:27:33 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: When you signed your contract with the utility company

What contract? I didn't say a contract for any of my utilities.


Are you a customer of theirs? Then somewhere along the line you probably did sign a contract without even realizing it.
2013-01-27 10:20:13 AM
1 votes:

Do_wacka_Do: According to the Chicago Tribune, Malia "Kim" Bendis was also arrested on two misdemeanors for resisting a police officer and attempted eavesdropping, when she filmed police on scene, despite a recent federal court ruling that the state of Illinois's ban on recording police officers in the line of duty was "unconstitutional." The U.S. Supreme Court upheld that ruling in November.

No comments about this? You are slipping FARKERS.


The attempted eavesdropping charge was probably thrown on because she really pissed off the cops. The cops know that the charge will get tossed, but they also know that she has to show up in court to get it tossed.
2013-01-27 10:18:40 AM
1 votes:

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


Very well written. I guess people don't understand that the outside of your house is the demarcation point for services, and that if you choose to use those, all utilities providers have the right to hook whatever the hell they feel like hooking up, irregardless of your personal feelings.
2013-01-27 10:15:31 AM
1 votes:

GoldSpider: This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.


In my experience, these the same Nobel prize winners fighting the good fight to save incandescent light bulbs.
2013-01-27 10:14:19 AM
1 votes:
Wonder how many people who are scared of RF listen to FM radio, or even better XM or Sirrius radio that run at a frequency just above these smart meters.

These smart meters run around 900MHz to 2GHz which is in the range called Ultra High Frequency or UHF for short...UHF...why does that sound familiar?? Something tells me that millions of Americans have been exposed to these frequency for generations w/o any issues.


/god people are stupid.
2013-01-27 10:12:56 AM
1 votes:

This About That: The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs.


Yeah. That point they were trying to make doesn't hold water, unless they also want to stop everyone in their neighborhood from having wi-fi networks....
2013-01-27 10:09:09 AM
1 votes:

italie: Warlordtrooper: This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.

Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission


Utility workers are often exempt, especially on newer properties. That eavesment on your plat (usually 3' from each line) is there specifically for utilities. If they crossed a fence line, or any other area that would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then you'd have a possible trespass. Good luck winning that case if they were in the line of duty though.


This. When you signed your contract with the utility company, you were implicitly giving permission for their agents to go onto your property to the extent needed to read the meter. Probably explicitly, too, most utility companies would likely put it in the contract somewhere to avoid some dumbass suing for trespass. Any attempt to bring a case against the utility company for trying to access the meter would be highly unlikely to survive summary judgment.
2013-01-27 10:07:54 AM
1 votes:

steveGswine: mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby

And then FTA: Malia "Kim" Bendis of the 2200 block of Mercer Court was charged with two misdemeanors - attempted eavesdropping and resisting a peace officer.

"Attempted eavesdropping"? How hard do you have to work to get busted for "attempted eavesdropping"?


You don't.  This and the other charge are when the cops just make shiat up.  No way in hell they'll actually be convicted of either count.
2013-01-27 10:01:19 AM
1 votes:

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


You make this sound like a good thing. These new meters can pick up very detailed real time information. It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when your awake, it knows when the grow lights are on, so be good for goodness sake... And when peak power comes rolling around every day it will charge you more, and you will then get hit with a bigger bill at the end of the month. I don't want these things. The old meters are tried and true and have never been a problem.
2013-01-27 09:57:44 AM
1 votes:

Warlordtrooper: This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.

Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission



Utility workers are often exempt, especially on newer properties. That eavesment on your plat (usually 3' from each line) is there specifically for utilities. If they crossed a fence line, or any other area that would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then you'd have a possible trespass. Good luck winning that case if they were in the line of duty though.
2013-01-27 09:53:03 AM
1 votes:
The funny thing about the idea behind smart meters is that "it's going to help you save money".

Horseshiat.  It's going to cost us money no matter how you look at it.  If anything, it will exploit the times you need energy the most and try to negate as much the off-peak hour savings.
2013-01-27 09:39:54 AM
1 votes:
Here's how this should have played out...

Don't want a smart meter?
Pay for the alternative meter.
Don't want to pay for the alternative meter?
Utility company shuts your service off at the transformer.
Interfere with a cop on the scene while utility company is shutting off your electricity?
That's a jailin'.
Go to jail for recording a police officer in public?
That's a lawsuit.

/Illinois: Arrest everybody and let the courts sort it out
2013-01-27 09:38:59 AM
1 votes:

This About That:
Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


This.
2013-01-27 09:34:04 AM
1 votes:
The worst "big gubmint" part of this story was arresting the woman who was recording the officers arresting the housewife.
2013-01-27 09:33:14 AM
1 votes:

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission
2013-01-27 09:23:14 AM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.

You made the claim. You supply the evidence.


Wow, that was hard...

After receiving numerous complaints about health, hacking, and privacy concerns with the wireless digital devices, the Public Utility Commission of the US state of Maine voted to allow customers to opt out of the meter change at a cost of $12 a month.[18] In Connecticut, another US state to consider smart metering recently, regulators declined a request by the state's largest utility, Connecticut Light & Power, to install 1.2 million of the devices, arguing that the potential savings in electric bills do not justify the cost. CL&P already offers its customers time-based rates. The state's Attorney General George Jepsen was quoted as saying the proposal would cause customers to spend upwards of $500 million on meters and get few benefits in return, a claim that Connecticut Light & Power disputed.[19]

If CT tells you to fark off, then there is no doubt that you're screwing customers.
2013-01-27 09:15:02 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.


No one ever suggested that a smart meter would or should have the ability to shut off one's AC.

This About That: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


This poster was suggesting that the consumer could use the data provided by the smart meter to make their own completely voluntary adjustments to their power usage in order to take best advantage on lower non-peak rates.
2013-01-27 09:14:50 AM
1 votes:

HoneyDog: If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.

Nope, I don't think that is what is behind the smart meters. They power company thinks they can save money using them. Despite its simplicity, a uniform wireless smart meter network is actually more expensive to run and offers few or no revenue opportunities to a utility to offset the cost of installation.


How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?
2013-01-27 09:12:42 AM
1 votes:
There was an amusing story in the local paper a few months ago. Seems that one day a woman saw a Hydro employee enter her yard, presumably to install a smart meter. She claims that the next day she started experiencing headaches, nausea, and all the classic "symtoms" associated with EMF "sensitivity". (Obviously, there was something dangerous about the smart meter, but only a handful of people are "special" enough to feel its effects).

This was brought to the attention to the head of the local Hydro office. He confirmed that while the woman's house was indeed scheduled to receive a smart meter, the installation hadn't yet occurred, and the person she saw was likely just the regular meter reader.
2013-01-27 09:05:40 AM
1 votes:
I have been using a Smart Meter for a year and a half now. I willingly signed up to be on a test program and a hundred or so people throughout my area got the meters.

I have found many benefits, including that I can now log online and see my real time usage. Additionally I pay half the amount per KwH on weekends and at night than I do during the day. By keeping my Thermostat down during the day and only doing laundry at night or on the weekends my electric bill has dropped 30 percent or so.
2013-01-27 08:59:39 AM
1 votes:
You may not agree with these broads but they have a right to their opinion. Just because you are glad to drink the no frills Kool Aid is no reason to be stupid (or ignorant). There is nothing natural about the plethora of corporate/government transmissions through our environment. Every year there is more uninvited corruption of our air, water and earth. Where is Billy Jack when we need him the most?

Everything has a price. Your cars pollute. Your TV's rot your mind and waste your time. Your cell phones and microwave ovens have side effects. Just because you all want to be willing pawns does not mean everyone has to go silently into the night. Corporations don't give a damn if you die tomorrow or if your children are born all farked up. Look at what they did to the Indians. Don't forget about the Dutch, too. Not to be trusted, none of them.
2013-01-27 08:57:20 AM
1 votes:
health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

Oh bullshiat. Jesus you people are farking morans.
2013-01-27 08:49:51 AM
1 votes:

ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.


Yeah, because fark night workers right? I mean sure, you'd like to be taken care of after your late night car crash, but that'll just have to wait till tomorrow. See, our underpaid night workers like to sleep with the AC on, because it's hot during the day. And bright. But of course they should pay more for that privilege, right? Because the world operates exactly within your preconceived notions of what is normal right? Your experience is representative of everyone else's.
2013-01-27 08:45:33 AM
1 votes:

bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?


Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power
2013-01-27 08:45:08 AM
1 votes:
This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.
2013-01-27 08:39:40 AM
1 votes:

mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby


FTFA:

Two vocal opponents of Naperville's initiative to install wireless electric meters on homes were arrested after interfering with the installation process, according to city officials.

This is a city ordinance they're fighting against? It's not even a Federal or State Law they're protesting? So why is Breitbart biatching?

Jesus Christ, just move to Aurora, Plainfield, or Joliet already and STFU.
2013-01-27 08:33:40 AM
1 votes:

Mexican Jew Lizard: Arresting two people for not having the smart meters is definitely overkill on behalf of the police. Why the two didn't go with the manual meters is beyond me.

I do love how the article points out the meters are "controversial" at least twice. Also, the the stuff about people complaining about "DNA damage" due to the meters is a bit amusing. The other stuff I could understand, but how would you even determine something like that? Send a swab to a lab or something?

Lastly, I have the feeling that Breitbart's team is reporting this because it fits in so well with the "fight big government" thrust of the site, not to mention it's in Chicago.


Chicago?!? ZOMG community organization darkies Islam murder rate!!1!
2013-01-27 08:33:32 AM
1 votes:
FTFA:
Reports of health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

And that's just what happens when they're not emitting any signals. Imagine what will happen when they turn them on!
2013-01-27 08:33:21 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.


Absolutely Rules are Rules and not to be trifled with. One must always obey The Rules.
2013-01-27 08:30:54 AM
1 votes:
2013-01-27 08:29:23 AM
1 votes:
This sounds like a brave thing to do in Naperville. Regardless of her motives, the gossip around the neighborhood will be that Jenny can't afford the 25 bucks a month to opt out.
2013-01-27 08:23:48 AM
1 votes:
Of course this is from brietfart so anything from it should be taken with 2 grains of salt.
I mean, the site has a tab labeled "Big Peace". What the hell does that even mean?
2013-01-27 08:16:41 AM
1 votes:
Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.
2013-01-27 08:16:35 AM
1 votes:
2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?
2013-01-27 05:05:42 AM
1 votes:

This About That: A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.


Yeah, I have one in the attic above the bedrooms.  Once again, the problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so it was built in stages (whenever they needed more room, they just built another room) - so I have 4 attics.

I'm torn about installing vents in the bedroom ceilings to pass air up to the attic to let the fan work better.  It would let the bedrooms cool off faster from the attic fan, but it would be a nightmare in the winter unless I closed them off tight.

This About That: Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.


That's the thing - the attic above the bedrooms IS insulated.  It has blown insulation between the bedroom ceilings and the attic floor (it's a walk up attic) and rolled thin foil insulation on the floor.  The only other thing I can insulate is the clapboard roof the tin is nailed to, presumably with hard foam insulation, but I'm worried about doing that because it would make water leaks harder to find.  Also, since either end of the attic has a full size 4.5 foot window on it, I'm not sure if it would do any good.  Insulating the attic floor seemed like the best option at some point, and I'm inclined to agree with whoever made that decision.

Here's a picture of the bedroom attic with an inspector and our real estate agent during a walkthrough.  You can see the blown insulation, the back of the tin from the roof, the floorboards, and you can barely make out a window behind the inspector.  The only thing we've added since this picture was taken was foil insulation on top of the floorboards, but it didn't seem to help much.

img802.imageshack.us

I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so.  What made the house tolerable when it was built - 19 million windows, works against it now.
2013-01-27 03:41:08 AM
1 votes:

This About That: Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day.


Our house is crazy old (152 years) and it was retrofitted with air-conditioning in 2002.  Since we couldn't run continuous duct work all over the house like you can in a new build, we have three zones and three heat pumps with programmable thermostats.  I made an uncomfortable discovery this summer - if we shut off the air conditioning for the zone that handles the upstairs bedrooms and the temperature goes above 97 that day - the heat pump can't cool down the upstairs overnight.  It tries, but it just can't do it.  The inside temperature upstairs creeps well above 115 even with an attic fan running.

I tried fiddling with the time it was turned off, then I tried leaving it on but setting the temp absurdly high (85 degrees - the highest the thermostat will go), then I bumped it down, and bumped it down, and bumped it down again until we at last got to a point where the overnight temp could drop to at least 75.

The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin.  I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.
2013-01-27 03:37:37 AM
1 votes:

This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee


Who got shot?
 
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