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(Breitbart.com)   Two suburban housewives are led away in handcuffs for refusing to let smart meters be hooked to their homes. Carry on, citizen   (breitbart.com) divider line 318
    More: Scary, smart meters, handcuffs, energy meter, Chicago metropolitan area, The Blaze  
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18901 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 8:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-27 02:48:14 AM
www.examiner.com

You'd jail your sisters for refusing to submit to the demands of the wealthy and powerful? I'm impressed, officer.
 
2013-01-27 03:00:54 AM
Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.
 
2013-01-27 03:20:14 AM

This About That: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand,


"Hey, we could have gotten .02 more a kilowatt hr. for that!" "Now we CAN! And tell the meter readers to stay home this year." Yay, progress. So, are these mandatory on commercial accounts, too?
 
2013-01-27 03:35:39 AM

bunner: So, are these mandatory on commercial accounts, too?


I don't know for sure, but my guess would be that commercial accounts have higher energy requirements, especially during the daytime, and are less like to shoot a utility employee over RF emanations. So, yeah, probably.
 
2013-01-27 03:37:37 AM

This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee


Who got shot?
 
2013-01-27 03:41:08 AM

This About That: Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day.


Our house is crazy old (152 years) and it was retrofitted with air-conditioning in 2002.  Since we couldn't run continuous duct work all over the house like you can in a new build, we have three zones and three heat pumps with programmable thermostats.  I made an uncomfortable discovery this summer - if we shut off the air conditioning for the zone that handles the upstairs bedrooms and the temperature goes above 97 that day - the heat pump can't cool down the upstairs overnight.  It tries, but it just can't do it.  The inside temperature upstairs creeps well above 115 even with an attic fan running.

I tried fiddling with the time it was turned off, then I tried leaving it on but setting the temp absurdly high (85 degrees - the highest the thermostat will go), then I bumped it down, and bumped it down, and bumped it down again until we at last got to a point where the overnight temp could drop to at least 75.

The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin.  I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.
 
2013-01-27 03:56:11 AM

Lsherm: The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin. I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.


I'm a fan of big ol' farmhouses, but insulation didn't seem to be such a big priority back then. Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.
 
2013-01-27 05:05:42 AM

This About That: A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.


Yeah, I have one in the attic above the bedrooms.  Once again, the problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so it was built in stages (whenever they needed more room, they just built another room) - so I have 4 attics.

I'm torn about installing vents in the bedroom ceilings to pass air up to the attic to let the fan work better.  It would let the bedrooms cool off faster from the attic fan, but it would be a nightmare in the winter unless I closed them off tight.

This About That: Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.


That's the thing - the attic above the bedrooms IS insulated.  It has blown insulation between the bedroom ceilings and the attic floor (it's a walk up attic) and rolled thin foil insulation on the floor.  The only other thing I can insulate is the clapboard roof the tin is nailed to, presumably with hard foam insulation, but I'm worried about doing that because it would make water leaks harder to find.  Also, since either end of the attic has a full size 4.5 foot window on it, I'm not sure if it would do any good.  Insulating the attic floor seemed like the best option at some point, and I'm inclined to agree with whoever made that decision.

Here's a picture of the bedroom attic with an inspector and our real estate agent during a walkthrough.  You can see the blown insulation, the back of the tin from the roof, the floorboards, and you can barely make out a window behind the inspector.  The only thing we've added since this picture was taken was foil insulation on top of the floorboards, but it didn't seem to help much.

img802.imageshack.us

I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so.  What made the house tolerable when it was built - 19 million windows, works against it now.
 
2013-01-27 05:08:15 AM
People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.
 
2013-01-27 06:35:12 AM

Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.


"Doctor, doctor! I feel like i'm falling apart",
"I see, must be the smart meter in your house causing your DNA to break down, surprisingly common, yes I can see your arm is turning into some kind of paste."

No one's mentioned it yet, so let me ask. Since this is a Breitbart link how do we know that 1. it's not entirely fabricated, 2. if it's true it's not because the women attacked people?

I'll admit that some of these smart meter installing practices seem a bit shady, but them I'm not fool enough to fail to recognise that all my sources on it are crazy nutjobs who have a vested interest in making their practices seem a bit shady.
 
2013-01-27 06:36:05 AM

Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.


My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-27 07:15:12 AM

mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.


I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.
 
2013-01-27 08:13:11 AM
Considering the source, am I right to assume that they left out some parts of this story and changed the context of it to suit their worldview?
 
2013-01-27 08:14:32 AM

vpb: mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.

I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.


Wouldn't it be so much fun to tell them how much more radiation their wifi routers are TX.
 
2013-01-27 08:16:27 AM
And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.
 
2013-01-27 08:16:35 AM
2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?
 
2013-01-27 08:16:41 AM
Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.
 
2013-01-27 08:17:11 AM
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7558700/82146714#c82146714" target="_blank">vpb</a>:</b> <i>mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.

I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.</i>

Same reason the 'N' in 'NMRI' is often not mentioned.
 
2013-01-27 08:23:48 AM
Of course this is from brietfart so anything from it should be taken with 2 grains of salt.
I mean, the site has a tab labeled "Big Peace". What the hell does that even mean?
 
2013-01-27 08:25:13 AM
Arresting two people for not having the smart meters is definitely overkill on behalf of the police. Why the two didn't go with the manual meters is beyond me.

I do love how the article points out the meters are "controversial" at least twice. Also, the the stuff about people complaining about "DNA damage" due to the meters is a bit amusing. The other stuff I could understand, but how would you even determine something like that? Send a swab to a lab or something?

Lastly, I have the feeling that Breitbart's team is reporting this because it fits in so well with the "fight big government" thrust of the site, not to mention it's in Chicago.
 
2013-01-27 08:25:42 AM

mrlewish: Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.


Actually...

media.thereadystore.com
Seriously, put it around the meter.
 
2013-01-27 08:28:01 AM
I hope that subby is posting this so that we can mock it and not because he actually believes this crap.
 
2013-01-27 08:29:23 AM
This sounds like a brave thing to do in Naperville. Regardless of her motives, the gossip around the neighborhood will be that Jenny can't afford the 25 bucks a month to opt out.
 
2013-01-27 08:30:43 AM

Richard C Stanford: Of course this is from brietfart so anything from it should be taken with 2 grains of salt.
I mean, the site has a tab labeled "Big Peace". What the hell does that even mean?


The peace-industrial complex is notorious for hugging its enemies to death. They're not to be trifled with. Look at Brietblart: he dared to speak truth to their power, and they hugged him to death with cocaine.
 
2013-01-27 08:30:54 AM
 
2013-01-27 08:31:00 AM
When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.
 
2013-01-27 08:31:30 AM

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.
 
2013-01-27 08:31:32 AM
Just get a decorative, lead-lined box for the smart meter. Take it off for 30 minutes each month so it can do its business.

Link
 
2013-01-27 08:32:13 AM
Smart meters as in the digital ones? Lolol suuuuuure it's causing you a list of health problems a mile long and I'm the queen of France.
 
2013-01-27 08:33:21 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.


Absolutely Rules are Rules and not to be trifled with. One must always obey The Rules.
 
2013-01-27 08:33:32 AM
FTFA:
Reports of health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

And that's just what happens when they're not emitting any signals. Imagine what will happen when they turn them on!
 
2013-01-27 08:33:40 AM

Mexican Jew Lizard: Arresting two people for not having the smart meters is definitely overkill on behalf of the police. Why the two didn't go with the manual meters is beyond me.

I do love how the article points out the meters are "controversial" at least twice. Also, the the stuff about people complaining about "DNA damage" due to the meters is a bit amusing. The other stuff I could understand, but how would you even determine something like that? Send a swab to a lab or something?

Lastly, I have the feeling that Breitbart's team is reporting this because it fits in so well with the "fight big government" thrust of the site, not to mention it's in Chicago.


Chicago?!? ZOMG community organization darkies Islam murder rate!!1!
 
2013-01-27 08:34:28 AM

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.
 
2013-01-27 08:39:40 AM

mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby


FTFA:

Two vocal opponents of Naperville's initiative to install wireless electric meters on homes were arrested after interfering with the installation process, according to city officials.

This is a city ordinance they're fighting against? It's not even a Federal or State Law they're protesting? So why is Breitbart biatching?

Jesus Christ, just move to Aurora, Plainfield, or Joliet already and STFU.
 
2013-01-27 08:40:35 AM
It's quite simple: if you refuse to allow the power company to install smart meters, the power company should have no obligation to provide your house with power.

All this nonsense about EMF "sensitivity" makes me realize that some people are blithering idiots. Get off our planet, you freakin moran's!
 
2013-01-27 08:41:50 AM

poorjon: FTFA:
Reports of health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

And that's just what happens when they're not emitting any signals. Imagine what will happen when they turn them on!



Dang! Came here to point out the omission of the emission.
 
2013-01-27 08:43:56 AM

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Umm, the power company can't use the smart meter to, for example, change the temperature on the thermostat in your house. They just keep track of all the times you adjust it, and accordingly, adjust your bill. You know that, right?

/Or is my sarcasm meter broken this morning?
 
2013-01-27 08:44:51 AM

This About That: Lsherm: The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin. I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.

I'm a fan of big ol' farmhouses, but insulation didn't seem to be such a big priority back then. Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.


We have one of the whole house extractor fans. It very nice on those spring and fall nights to get rid of the heat quickly and costs only a fraction of running the a/c. Well worth looking into.
 
2013-01-27 08:45:08 AM
This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.
 
2013-01-27 08:45:09 AM
cdn.breitbart.com
 
2013-01-27 08:45:33 AM

bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?


Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power
 
2013-01-27 08:46:11 AM
Two vocal opponents of Naperville's initiative to install wireless electric meters on homes were arrested after interfering with the installation process, according to city officials.

White people problems.
 
2013-01-27 08:46:12 AM
People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

This is most likely caused by ghosts and spirits. The new meters just stir them up. This is why any professional ghost hunter will carry an RF meter with them.

They should be checking the suburb for an old cemetery or, as is more common, an ancient Indian burial ground.
 
2013-01-27 08:46:32 AM

LeroyB: poorjon: FTFA:
Reports of health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

And that's just what happens when they're not emitting any signals. Imagine what will happen when they turn them on!


Dang! Came here to point out the omission of the emission.


Really, this has never happened to me before.
 
2013-01-27 08:48:42 AM
Obviously they are misguided and should allow the smart meters on their property.
But why are they arresting people? Why not simply cut off their electric service or automatically start charging them the monthly manual fee, which is ridiculously high.

Its not right to arrest people who dont want the service.
 
2013-01-27 08:49:51 AM

ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.


Yeah, because fark night workers right? I mean sure, you'd like to be taken care of after your late night car crash, but that'll just have to wait till tomorrow. See, our underpaid night workers like to sleep with the AC on, because it's hot during the day. And bright. But of course they should pay more for that privilege, right? Because the world operates exactly within your preconceived notions of what is normal right? Your experience is representative of everyone else's.
 
2013-01-27 08:51:00 AM
According to the Chicago Tribune, Malia "Kim" Bendis was also arrested on two misdemeanors for resisting a police officer and attempted eavesdropping, when she filmed police on scene, despite a recent federal court ruling that the state of Illinois's ban on recording police officers in the line of duty was "unconstitutional." The U.S. Supreme Court upheld that ruling in November.

No comments about this? You are slipping FARKERS.
 
2013-01-27 08:51:03 AM

Animatronik: Obviously they are misguided and should allow the smart meters on their property.
But why are they arresting people? Why not simply cut off their electric service or automatically start charging them the monthly manual fee, which is ridiculously high.

Its not right to arrest people who dont want the service.


This is why:

Stahl, who was released from custody about 4:30 p.m., said when she refused the smart meter, installers accompanied by police cut the bicycle lock she had placed on her fence and entered her backyard. She then stood in front of her electric meter and refused to move.

"It was forced on my house today," she said. "It was really a violation. I violated something, but I've been violated too so I guess we're now in a society of violating one another."


Whether you think both Naperville utility and police officials were out of line with this one is up for debate. But basically she confronted police.
 
2013-01-27 08:51:56 AM
The peeps in my hood are all cray-cray about not having smart meters installed. So this article comes as ZERO surprise to me.

/has a smart meter
//growing a third arm as I type this
 
2013-01-27 08:52:53 AM
Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.


Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.
 
2013-01-27 08:53:02 AM

mekkab: The peeps in my hood are all cray-cray about not having smart meters installed. So this article comes as ZERO surprise to me.

/has a smart meter
//growing a third arm as I type this


Awesome. No more posting one-handed.
 
2013-01-27 08:54:58 AM
1. Naperville has very quickly become the worst of Illinois. Never before have I seen such smug concentrated into one town.

2. What have they to say about their water meters that have been doing this since '00 ?
 
2013-01-27 08:56:24 AM

Kyosuke: Awesome. No more posting one-handed.


not quite... I'm also double-packing under the belt, as well.
 
2013-01-27 08:57:20 AM
health risks due to the meter's wireless transmitter's omission of electromagnetic frequencies surfaced in 2011. People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

Oh bullshiat. Jesus you people are farking morans.
 
2013-01-27 08:57:57 AM

mekkab: Kyosuke: Awesome. No more posting one-handed.

not quite... I'm also double-packing under the belt, as well.


Eventually you'll learn to alternate.
 
2013-01-27 08:58:33 AM

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


What the HELL are you talking about???
 
2013-01-27 08:59:39 AM
You may not agree with these broads but they have a right to their opinion. Just because you are glad to drink the no frills Kool Aid is no reason to be stupid (or ignorant). There is nothing natural about the plethora of corporate/government transmissions through our environment. Every year there is more uninvited corruption of our air, water and earth. Where is Billy Jack when we need him the most?

Everything has a price. Your cars pollute. Your TV's rot your mind and waste your time. Your cell phones and microwave ovens have side effects. Just because you all want to be willing pawns does not mean everyone has to go silently into the night. Corporations don't give a damn if you die tomorrow or if your children are born all farked up. Look at what they did to the Indians. Don't forget about the Dutch, too. Not to be trusted, none of them.
 
2013-01-27 09:00:50 AM
Here, PECO stopped installing smart meter last year due to fire concerns.  They've since resumed installing.  One showed up on the house a few weeks ago.
 
2013-01-27 09:01:05 AM

Mrtraveler01: And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.


Rf devices are usually pretty easy to break into. They're not concerned with what info the electric company has on them, they're worried that these devices essentially open up their data for the world to see. And quite honestly, the fees they must pay to maintain the same type of data collection they always had are absurdly high.
 
2013-01-27 09:02:02 AM

Lsherm:  I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.


Oh my yes, it will.

I was tasked to re-tar the roof of one of our buildings with the fancy $50/bucket silver-colored stuff. In August. It cut down the A/C loads immediately. The compressor would actually shut off sometimes!
 
2013-01-27 09:02:32 AM

HoneyDog: Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.


Yes, and they can turn off all the lights and turn off your TV  to MSNBC anytime they want.

If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.
 
2013-01-27 09:05:40 AM
I have been using a Smart Meter for a year and a half now. I willingly signed up to be on a test program and a hundred or so people throughout my area got the meters.

I have found many benefits, including that I can now log online and see my real time usage. Additionally I pay half the amount per KwH on weekends and at night than I do during the day. By keeping my Thermostat down during the day and only doing laundry at night or on the weekends my electric bill has dropped 30 percent or so.
 
2013-01-27 09:07:09 AM
What the HELL are you talking about???

Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.

And as an aside, our local power company just was granted a rate increase. Why? Because so many of us were using our power wisely that they were losing money due to decreased demand. Fun little scenario: 1) urge people to use less so they save money, 2) people respond by getting more energy efficient gadgets and being wise with their power usage, 3) power company raises rates so all savings the people realized by following their original suggestions goes up in smoke.
 
2013-01-27 09:09:00 AM

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


You know there is a difference between a smart meter and a smart thermostat, right? The smart meter records your power usage as a function of the time of day, and the smart thermostat changes your AC/heat usage based on the times that you program into it. The meter does not control the thermostat - you do.
 
2013-01-27 09:10:04 AM
What I found disturbing was that one of the women was arrested for filming the police.
 
2013-01-27 09:11:06 AM
If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.

Nope, I don't think that is what is behind the smart meters. They power company thinks they can save money using them. Despite its simplicity, a uniform wireless smart meter network is actually more expensive to run and offers few or no revenue opportunities to a utility to offset the cost of installation.
 
2013-01-27 09:12:42 AM
There was an amusing story in the local paper a few months ago. Seems that one day a woman saw a Hydro employee enter her yard, presumably to install a smart meter. She claims that the next day she started experiencing headaches, nausea, and all the classic "symtoms" associated with EMF "sensitivity". (Obviously, there was something dangerous about the smart meter, but only a handful of people are "special" enough to feel its effects).

This was brought to the attention to the head of the local Hydro office. He confirmed that while the woman's house was indeed scheduled to receive a smart meter, the installation hadn't yet occurred, and the person she saw was likely just the regular meter reader.
 
2013-01-27 09:12:53 AM

Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.


thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com

Feels your pain.
 
2013-01-27 09:13:02 AM
You know there is a difference between a smart meter and a smart thermostat, right? The smart meter records your power usage as a function of the time of day, and the smart thermostat changes your AC/heat usage based on the times that you program into it. The meter does not control the thermostat - you do.

NOOOOOO, I would have never figured that. Of course I know that. I was responding to the fool that said I had the prerogative to leave my AC on during the day. I wasn't trying to compare the PROGRAMMABLE thermostat to a smart meter.
 
2013-01-27 09:14:50 AM

HoneyDog: If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.

Nope, I don't think that is what is behind the smart meters. They power company thinks they can save money using them. Despite its simplicity, a uniform wireless smart meter network is actually more expensive to run and offers few or no revenue opportunities to a utility to offset the cost of installation.


How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?
 
2013-01-27 09:15:02 AM

HoneyDog: Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.


No one ever suggested that a smart meter would or should have the ability to shut off one's AC.

This About That: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


This poster was suggesting that the consumer could use the data provided by the smart meter to make their own completely voluntary adjustments to their power usage in order to take best advantage on lower non-peak rates.
 
2013-01-27 09:15:30 AM

HoneyDog: You know there is a difference between a smart meter and a smart thermostat, right? The smart meter records your power usage as a function of the time of day, and the smart thermostat changes your AC/heat usage based on the times that you program into it. The meter does not control the thermostat - you do.

NOOOOOO, I would have never figured that. Of course I know that. I was responding to the fool that said I had the prerogative to leave my AC on during the day. I wasn't trying to compare the PROGRAMMABLE thermostat to a smart meter.


I think you should stop posting now.
 
2013-01-27 09:16:27 AM
How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.
 
2013-01-27 09:17:19 AM

HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.


You made the claim. You supply the evidence.
 
2013-01-27 09:21:15 AM
You made the claim. You supply the evidence.

You claim I made it up, PROVE IT.
 
2013-01-27 09:22:01 AM

Mrtraveler01: HoneyDog: Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

Yes, and they can turn off all the lights and turn off your TV  to MSNBC anytime they want.

If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.


The real point is to make as much money as possible.

Oh... and the ability to turn off the power remotely to those who haven't paid their bill.
 
2013-01-27 09:22:13 AM

HoneyDog: You made the claim. You supply the evidence.

You claim I made it up, PROVE IT.


And we're done here.
 
2013-01-27 09:22:16 AM
1) Wait until 2AM
2) Wrap the meter in an RF Reflective material
3) Cheap electricity for the whole month!
 
2013-01-27 09:23:14 AM

WhippingBoy: HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.

You made the claim. You supply the evidence.


Wow, that was hard...

After receiving numerous complaints about health, hacking, and privacy concerns with the wireless digital devices, the Public Utility Commission of the US state of Maine voted to allow customers to opt out of the meter change at a cost of $12 a month.[18] In Connecticut, another US state to consider smart metering recently, regulators declined a request by the state's largest utility, Connecticut Light & Power, to install 1.2 million of the devices, arguing that the potential savings in electric bills do not justify the cost. CL&P already offers its customers time-based rates. The state's Attorney General George Jepsen was quoted as saying the proposal would cause customers to spend upwards of $500 million on meters and get few benefits in return, a claim that Connecticut Light & Power disputed.[19]

If CT tells you to fark off, then there is no doubt that you're screwing customers.
 
2013-01-27 09:23:55 AM

WhippingBoy: HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?
GOOGLE IT.
You made the claim. You supply the evidence.


You haven't done your homework buddy.....
 
2013-01-27 09:24:07 AM

KrispyKritter: You may not agree with these broads but they have a right to their opinion. Just because you are glad to drink the no frills Kool Aid is no reason to be stupid (or ignorant). There is nothing natural about the plethora of corporate/government transmissions through our environment. Every year there is more uninvited corruption of our air, water and earth. Where is Billy Jack when we need him the most?

Everything has a price. Your cars pollute. Your TV's rot your mind and waste your time. Your cell phones and microwave ovens have side effects. Just because you all want to be willing pawns does not mean everyone has to go silently into the night. Corporations don't give a damn if you die tomorrow or if your children are born all farked up. Look at what they did to the Indians. Don't forget about the Dutch, too. Not to be trusted, none of them.


Don't forget cameras. Everyone knows that if you get your picture taken, the camera steals your soul. Yet the government does nothing to stop them.
 
2013-01-27 09:24:42 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: WhippingBoy: HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?


GOOGLE IT.

You made the claim. You supply the evidence.

Wow, that was hard...

After receiving numerous complaints about health, hacking, and privacy concerns with the wireless digital devices, the Public Utility Commission of the US state of Maine voted to allow customers to opt out of the meter change at a cost of $12 a month.[18] In Connecticut, another US state to consider smart metering recently, regulators declined a request by the state's largest utility, Connecticut Light & Power, to install 1.2 million of the devices, arguing that the potential savings in electric bills do not justify the cost. CL&P already offers its customers time-based rates. The state's Attorney General George Jepsen was quoted as saying the proposal would cause customers to spend upwards of $500 million on meters and get few benefits in return, a claim that Connecticut Light & Power disputed.[19]

If CT tells you to fark off, then there is no doubt that you're screwing customers.


In other words, you're going to pay one way or another.
 
2013-01-27 09:25:23 AM

This About That: 1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.


That can be done by "Automatic Meter Reading" meters. Smart meters are an all together different type of animal.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Also done by AMRs, which typically record your usage per hour and send the information back to the utility. Whether the consumer saves any money is debatable. Peaks in electricity demand happen when they do because those are the most convenient times for people to use their appliances. Unless you feel like watching TV and cooking at 3am, chances are you're not going to adjust your usage. On the other hand utilities can now charge a "peak time" premium, because fark you, they can.

As for actual Smart Meters, the name usually refers to a meter which collects real time usage information (as opposed to hour by hour) and has a two-way communication system, so the utility (or a malicious 3rd party) can, for example remotely shut off your power, because fark you, they can.

Now, the other point about real time information that the utility company can really see what's going on inside your house. They know when you wake up, they know when you leave the house, when you come home, when you watch TV and when you go to bed. Different appliances have slightly different load characteristics, especially when starting up or shutting down, so you can tell whether somebody has just turned on their TV or they microwave, even if they both draw the same amount of power. What are utilities going to do with all that interesting data?

The fact is that smart meters are a bit too smart for their own good. The beneficial stuff can all be done using simpler technology.
 
2013-01-27 09:25:39 AM
Fascist progressives arresting people on behalf of corporations. She was arrested for filming on her own farking property! Every so-called-progressive should be rounded up and shot imo.
 
2013-01-27 09:27:04 AM

HoneyDog: If you really think that's the purpose behind these smart meters, then you're really missing the point.

Nope, I don't think that is what is behind the smart meters. They power company thinks they can save money using them. Despite its simplicity, a uniform wireless smart meter network is actually more expensive to run and offers few or no revenue opportunities to a utility to offset the cost of installation.


Huh? My "dumb" meter has been on my house for 40 year. They have been paying someone for 40 years to come out and read it. How many of these foot soldiers does it take to cover a town? And how many days does it take?

Now take the initial cost of the meter, installation, and equipment to read. Divide that over another 40 years eliminating the salary of all those foot soldiers because you can now read the entire town with one truck, in a day.

If they are going "full network", they are most likely buying time off of a municipalities, or will be selling time on theirs to the municipality/other utilities.

This can be a revenue generator and a cost saver, plain and simple
 
2013-01-27 09:30:02 AM

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Yeah, because fark night workers right? I mean sure, you'd like to be taken care of after your late night car crash, but that'll just have to wait till tomorrow. See, our underpaid night workers like to sleep with the AC on, because it's hot during the day. And bright. But of course they should pay more for that privilege, right? Because the world operates exactly within your preconceived notions of what is normal right? Your experience is representative of everyone else's.


Whoa. Easy.

I was just addressing the *fact* that electricity is more expensive during times of higher demand (less surplus)... which, in our mostly first shift society, happens to be during the day.

(I work second and third shifts.)
 
2013-01-27 09:31:20 AM

Lsherm: I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so. What made the house tolerable when it was built - 19 million windows, works against it now.


Have you had a blower-door test? They're pretty cheap, and the type of insulation you're using requires an air barrier. if there are gaps in your air barrier, your insulation is going to be less effective. I'd start with that before adding any more insulation. My guess is you have several big air gaps. You can ask the person doing the test to use the add-a-hole method to get a really precise estimate of how many square feet are open.

Also, if you have lots of windows, there are some pretty good shade options that will really reduce the heat through your windows. Google for cellular shade solar gain. You can also look at getting wood double-hung storm windows with a uv-glazing. They're gonna be pricey, but they'll virtually eliminate the heat that comes in through the windows during the summer, and you can easily remove them to let the heat back in during the winter when you want it, and you only need them for the most exposed windows.
 
2013-01-27 09:33:14 AM

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission
 
2013-01-27 09:34:04 AM
The worst "big gubmint" part of this story was arresting the woman who was recording the officers arresting the housewife.
 
2013-01-27 09:34:14 AM
Soverign MILF now in play?

*watches video* meh

Broads ? Jesus man, who calls women "Broads"? Seriously, it's just this attitude that keeps you going home from the bar and humping your fist night after night.

Everything has a price. Your cars pollute. Your TV's rot your mind and waste your time. Your cell phones and microwave ovens have side effects. Just because you all want to be willing pawns does not mean everyone has to go silently into the night.

That's right and in this case the price is about $25/ a month plus about $70 an install - or - don't be so cheap and put a Faraday cage into the sheet rock
 
2013-01-27 09:35:53 AM

Bad_Seed: This About That: 1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

That can be done by "Automatic Meter Reading" meters. Smart meters are an all together different type of animal.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Also done by AMRs, which typically record your usage per hour and send the information back to the utility. Whether the consumer saves any money is debatable. Peaks in electricity demand happen when they do because those are the most convenient times for people to use their appliances. Unless you feel like watching TV and cooking at 3am, chances are you're not going to adjust your usage. On the other hand utilities can now charge a "peak time" premium, because fark you, they can.

As for actual Smart Meters, the name usually refers to a meter which collects real time usage information (as opposed to hour by hour) and has a two-way communication system, so the utility (or a malicious 3rd party) can, for example remotely shut off your power, because fark you, they can.

Now, the other point about real time information that the utility company can really see what's going on inside your house. They know when you wake up, they know when you leave the house, when you come home, when you watch TV and when you go to bed. Different appliances have slightly different load characteristics, especially when starting up or shutting down, so you can tell whether somebody has just turned on their TV or they microwave, even if they both draw the same amoun ...


It's all a conspiracy.
 
2013-01-27 09:36:22 AM

Marcintosh: Broads ? Jesus man, who calls women "Broads"? Seriously, it's just this attitude that keeps you going home from the bar and humping your fist night after night.


This. Everyone knows that broads prefer to be called "dames" or "dollymops".
 
2013-01-27 09:36:46 AM
How do you report feeling "DNA breakdown"?

In anycase, Illinois continues to prove itself the most corrupt State in the US over and over again.

Idiot cops even charge her with videotaping them even though that was ruled unconstitutional for them to do so, but that sure didn't stop them.
 
2013-01-27 09:38:59 AM

This About That:
Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


This.
 
2013-01-27 09:39:54 AM
Here's how this should have played out...

Don't want a smart meter?
Pay for the alternative meter.
Don't want to pay for the alternative meter?
Utility company shuts your service off at the transformer.
Interfere with a cop on the scene while utility company is shutting off your electricity?
That's a jailin'.
Go to jail for recording a police officer in public?
That's a lawsuit.

/Illinois: Arrest everybody and let the courts sort it out
 
2013-01-27 09:41:40 AM

Lsherm: I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so. ...


I have a c1780 farmhouse. Made a huge difference when I rolled out unfaced R30, 2 layers worth - at 90 degrees to each other, on top of all the old floorboards in the crawlspaces & did 12" of blown-in for the attic space. All I had was old insulation of 3-6" below the old floorboards. For storage, I used 2x4 to frame out a platform just above the R30 layers and screwed to the rafters for one side and put plywood over top. You might consider the same in your attic - you will lose storage space but the energy savings would be tremendous.
 
2013-01-27 09:49:04 AM

mrlewish: Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.


You don't need bolt cutters. If you can generate all of your own electricity, just have your service disconnected.
 
2013-01-27 09:53:03 AM
The funny thing about the idea behind smart meters is that "it's going to help you save money".

Horseshiat.  It's going to cost us money no matter how you look at it.  If anything, it will exploit the times you need energy the most and try to negate as much the off-peak hour savings.
 
2013-01-27 09:54:08 AM

ExJerseyGirl: What I found disturbing was that one of the women was arrested for filming the police.


That's because she kept telling them to take off their shirts and waving dollar bills.
 
2013-01-27 09:54:33 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mrtraveler01: And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.

Rf devices are usually pretty easy to break into. They're not concerned with what info the electric company has on them, they're worried that these devices essentially open up their data for the world to see. And quite honestly, the fees they must pay to maintain the same type of data collection they always had are absurdly high.


It is a lot easier to walk up to a new or old fashioned meter and see how fast it is spinning than to scan for an RF signal.
 
2013-01-27 09:56:14 AM
some suffer from DNA breakdown.

What the hell is that? I guess you wake up one morning and find out that you've just mutated into a Neanderthal.
 
2013-01-27 09:57:44 AM

Warlordtrooper: This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.

Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission



Utility workers are often exempt, especially on newer properties. That eavesment on your plat (usually 3' from each line) is there specifically for utilities. If they crossed a fence line, or any other area that would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then you'd have a possible trespass. Good luck winning that case if they were in the line of duty though.
 
2013-01-27 09:57:49 AM
I'm happy with the concept of smart meters-- it's just the implementation that has me concerned.

 Wireless for sending/receiving data-- INCLUDING the ability to shut off power? Jesus, what a bad idea.  I'm sure it was MUCH cheaper than designing the meters to do signaling over the power lines themselves (which IS doable BTW, especially for the tiny amount of data being sent/received) but this will come back to bite people in the ass someday.

Sooner or later some self-proclaimed member of Anonymous is going to be shutting off power across huge residential sections of a city with a hacked Wi-Fi router and a Dixie Cup. Just because he can. Then the plans for his little gadget will be posted on 4chan and we're going to have a real nationwide nightmare on our hands.

Yeah, I have no doubt the power companies will claim that their wireless security is top notch. The best ever developed.  Yeah, right.

And what happens when something breaks/gets jammed and the signal can't get through for an extended period?  Does the meter shut off power to the house on its own after a certain duration of no contact?

Right now the "demand" pricing scheme is optional -- at least in my area.  How long before somebody decides by fiat to force everybody to live with it?
 
2013-01-27 10:01:19 AM

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


You make this sound like a good thing. These new meters can pick up very detailed real time information. It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when your awake, it knows when the grow lights are on, so be good for goodness sake... And when peak power comes rolling around every day it will charge you more, and you will then get hit with a bigger bill at the end of the month. I don't want these things. The old meters are tried and true and have never been a problem.
 
2013-01-27 10:04:50 AM

WhippingBoy: Marcintosh: Broads ? Jesus man, who calls women "Broads"? Seriously, it's just this attitude that keeps you going home from the bar and humping your fist night after night.

This. Everyone knows that broads prefer to be called "dames" or "dollymops".


Whatever happened to the more genteel term "Spunk dumpster?"
 
2013-01-27 10:06:42 AM

mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby


And then FTA: Malia "Kim" Bendis of the 2200 block of Mercer Court was charged with two misdemeanors - attempted eavesdropping and resisting a peace officer.

"Attempted eavesdropping"? How hard do you have to work to get busted for "attempted eavesdropping"?
 
2013-01-27 10:07:54 AM

steveGswine: mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby

And then FTA: Malia "Kim" Bendis of the 2200 block of Mercer Court was charged with two misdemeanors - attempted eavesdropping and resisting a peace officer.

"Attempted eavesdropping"? How hard do you have to work to get busted for "attempted eavesdropping"?


You don't.  This and the other charge are when the cops just make shiat up.  No way in hell they'll actually be convicted of either count.
 
2013-01-27 10:09:09 AM

italie: Warlordtrooper: This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.

Even if they own the meter they don't own the property. It's trespassing for them to come on someone else's property without permission


Utility workers are often exempt, especially on newer properties. That eavesment on your plat (usually 3' from each line) is there specifically for utilities. If they crossed a fence line, or any other area that would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then you'd have a possible trespass. Good luck winning that case if they were in the line of duty though.


This. When you signed your contract with the utility company, you were implicitly giving permission for their agents to go onto your property to the extent needed to read the meter. Probably explicitly, too, most utility companies would likely put it in the contract somewhere to avoid some dumbass suing for trespass. Any attempt to bring a case against the utility company for trying to access the meter would be highly unlikely to survive summary judgment.
 
2013-01-27 10:09:41 AM

homelessdude: WhippingBoy: HoneyDog: How do you know that? Or is it something you just made up?
GOOGLE IT.
You made the claim. You supply the evidence.

You haven't done your homework buddy.....


rationalwiki.org
 
2013-01-27 10:12:56 AM

This About That: The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs.


Yeah. That point they were trying to make doesn't hold water, unless they also want to stop everyone in their neighborhood from having wi-fi networks....
 
2013-01-27 10:13:21 AM

Maul555: It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when your awake, it knows when the grow lights are on, so be good for goodness sake...


So it's like Santa Claus? And people who are opposed to it are part of the War on Christmas? Got it.
 
2013-01-27 10:14:19 AM
Wonder how many people who are scared of RF listen to FM radio, or even better XM or Sirrius radio that run at a frequency just above these smart meters.

These smart meters run around 900MHz to 2GHz which is in the range called Ultra High Frequency or UHF for short...UHF...why does that sound familiar?? Something tells me that millions of Americans have been exposed to these frequency for generations w/o any issues.


/god people are stupid.
 
2013-01-27 10:15:31 AM

GoldSpider: This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.


In my experience, these the same Nobel prize winners fighting the good fight to save incandescent light bulbs.
 
2013-01-27 10:17:13 AM

udhq: GoldSpider: This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.

In my experience, these the same Nobel prize winners fighting the good fight to save incandescent light bulbs.


But don't you dare call them luddites.
 
2013-01-27 10:18:36 AM

udhq: GoldSpider: This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.

In my experience, these the same Nobel prize winners fighting the good fight to save incandescent light bulbs.


While at the same time endorsing the Patriot Act as necessary for our "war on terror."

Yeah, the abuses of our rights in that piece of shiat are far worse than not being able to buy a certain type of light bulb, buddy.
 
2013-01-27 10:18:40 AM

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


Very well written. I guess people don't understand that the outside of your house is the demarcation point for services, and that if you choose to use those, all utilities providers have the right to hook whatever the hell they feel like hooking up, irregardless of your personal feelings.
 
2013-01-27 10:19:04 AM

WhippingBoy: KrispyKritter: You may not agree with these broads but they have a right to their opinion. Just because you are glad to drink the no frills Kool Aid is no reason to be stupid (or ignorant). There is nothing natural about the plethora of corporate/government transmissions through our environment. Every year there is more uninvited corruption of our air, water and earth. Where is Billy Jack when we need him the most?

Everything has a price. Your cars pollute. Your TV's rot your mind and waste your time. Your cell phones and microwave ovens have side effects. Just because you all want to be willing pawns does not mean everyone has to go silently into the night. Corporations don't give a damn if you die tomorrow or if your children are born all farked up. Look at what they did to the Indians. Don't forget about the Dutch, too. Not to be trusted, none of them.

Don't forget cameras. Everyone knows that if you get your picture taken, the camera steals your soul. Yet the government does nothing to stop them.


So THAT'S why they arrested the woman for videotaping the police.

Also I'm wondering if (in this thread) there might be some smart meter confusion over the second meter some people get installed. Apparently you can get a second meter installed connected to your AC/ water heater/ appliances/ whatever that allows the power company to remotely shut them off whenever they want, usually during peak times.
 
2013-01-27 10:20:13 AM

Do_wacka_Do: According to the Chicago Tribune, Malia "Kim" Bendis was also arrested on two misdemeanors for resisting a police officer and attempted eavesdropping, when she filmed police on scene, despite a recent federal court ruling that the state of Illinois's ban on recording police officers in the line of duty was "unconstitutional." The U.S. Supreme Court upheld that ruling in November.

No comments about this? You are slipping FARKERS.


The attempted eavesdropping charge was probably thrown on because she really pissed off the cops. The cops know that the charge will get tossed, but they also know that she has to show up in court to get it tossed.
 
2013-01-27 10:21:51 AM

udhq: GoldSpider: This fight against smart-meters is a new form of weapons-grade stupidity that I'd never heard of. These are probably a lot of the same people who complain about how vulnerable and primitive our power grid is.

In my experience, these the same Nobel prize winners fighting the good fight to save incandescent light bulbs.



In all seriousness, CFLs do suck...


//and LEDs wil eat your braaaaaaaiiinnnnsssss
 
2013-01-27 10:24:39 AM
When you signed your contract with the utility company

What contract? I didn't say a contract for any of my utilities.
 
2013-01-27 10:25:44 AM
I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.
 
2013-01-27 10:27:15 AM
My smart meter keeps asking me to kill.
 
2013-01-27 10:27:30 AM

HighlanderRPI: Lsherm: I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so. ...

I have a c1780 farmhouse. Made a huge difference when I rolled out unfaced R30, 2 layers worth - at 90 degrees to each other, on top of all the old floorboards in the crawlspaces & did 12" of blown-in for the attic space. All I had was old insulation of 3-6" below the old floorboards. For storage, I used 2x4 to frame out a platform just above the R30 layers and screwed to the rafters for one side and put plywood over top. You might consider the same in your attic - you will lose storage space but the energy savings would be tremendous.


Thanks for the suggestion.  My wife uses the attic(s) heavily for storage, but it might be worth having her move stuff out to keep the bedrooms cooler.
 
2013-01-27 10:27:33 AM

HoneyDog: When you signed your contract with the utility company

What contract? I didn't say a contract for any of my utilities.


Are you a customer of theirs? Then somewhere along the line you probably did sign a contract without even realizing it.
 
2013-01-27 10:27:53 AM

Fissile: I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.


Seriously. Buy a propane tank and a solar array and shut your mouth.
 
2013-01-27 10:30:32 AM

eggrolls: Fissile: I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.

Seriously. Buy a propane tank and a solar array and shut your mouth.


==============

Or be really boot strappy, like Ayn Rand, and build your own generating plant in your backyard, supplied by coal from your own coal mine. People today are such whiny slackers. Gimme, gimme, gimme.....that's all they know.
 
2013-01-27 10:31:14 AM

Lsherm: This About That: Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day.

Our house is crazy old (152 years) and it was retrofitted with air-conditioning in 2002.  Since we couldn't run continuous duct work all over the house like you can in a new build, we have three zones and three heat pumps with programmable thermostats.  I made an uncomfortable discovery this summer - if we shut off the air conditioning for the zone that handles the upstairs bedrooms and the temperature goes above 97 that day - the heat pump can't cool down the upstairs overnight.  It tries, but it just can't do it.  The inside temperature upstairs creeps well above 115 even with an attic fan running.

I tried fiddling with the time it was turned off, then I tried leaving it on but setting the temp absurdly high (85 degrees - the highest the thermostat will go), then I bumped it down, and bumped it down, and bumped it down again until we at last got to a point where the overnight temp could drop to at least 75.

The biggest problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so the walls aren't insulated that well and the roof is black-tar painted tin.  I'm getting the roof painted with silver reflective paint this spring, so I hope that takes some of the heat load off the house.


Couple of things here,

First, no matter what the numbers say, a heat pump DOES NOT cool as well as a regular a/c. Once the outside temp drops below a certain point, it won't heat as well either.

Also, be careful about insulating, if the house has Knob and Tube wiring, it can be a fire hazard.
 
2013-01-27 10:33:27 AM

Bad_Seed: Now, the other point about real time information that the utility company can really see what's going on inside your house. They know when you wake up, they know when you leave the house, when you come home, when you watch TV and when you go to bed. Different appliances have slightly different load characteristics, especially when starting up or shutting down, so you can tell whether somebody has just turned on their TV or they microwave, even if they both draw the same amount of power. What are utilities going to do with all that interesting data?



Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.


Bad_Seed: so the utility (or a malicious 3rd party) can, for example remotely shut off your power, because fark you, they can.



I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I haven't noticed power meters suddenly growing twice as big as they used to be or brand new enclosures containing switchgear suddenly appearing for every handful of houses. And as seldom as the power to any particular dwelling is connected or disconnected I can't imagine how replacing all the existing manual disconnection hardware with relays would make economic sense for any power utility.

If I'm wrong and you actually have evidence that new power metering technology allows for remote disconnection, as opposed to speculation, please point me to the evidence and I'll happily stand corrected. (I'll also be surprised as hell, too, since it doesn't make any sense...)
 
2013-01-27 10:33:59 AM
In las vegas they were pushing thermostats that the power co. had override control over. As an example, they could raise your temperature set point remotely in the summer if they felt there was too much power being used in the area. It was a voluntary program and I never signed up for it.

Thermostat set at 71 in the winter and 72 in the summer. Setbacks at night, summer and winter. I don't want somebody else deciding I should sit in an 84 degree house in the summer.

And smart meters/data loggers can collect a lot of data. There seems to be an increasingly blurry line between using any data collected in any setting for good or for evil. And as this scenario illustrates very well, it is becoming more and more common to see what amounts to a surcharge placed on a persons privacy. From something as simple as swiping your grocery store card to get discounts at the register in trade for giving up a complete list of what food your family eats, which you can avoid if you pay the surcharge in extra food costs, to this type of meter/data logger which can paint an incomplete but interesting picture of a households lifestyle if analyzed that way, or by paying the surcharge so some other piece of the puzzle of your private life remains private. All this increasingly more common stuff leads to a world where more and more only those with enough money can live a private life and the rest of us live under the potential to be analyzed by unknown parties for unknown purposes, good or bad, at any time.

I don't worry about it much, but I see it and don't really like it just the same. Can't fix it. Can't afford to avoid it.

If you want to pursue your experiments with the goal of creating a human/dirty sweat sock hybrid that's yer biznezz. .
 
2013-01-27 10:35:16 AM

Lsherm: This About That: A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.

Yeah, I have one in the attic above the bedrooms.  Once again, the problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so it was built in stages (whenever they needed more room, they just built another room) - so I have 4 attics.

I'm torn about installing vents in the bedroom ceilings to pass air up to the attic to let the fan work better.  It would let the bedrooms cool off faster from the attic fan, but it would be a nightmare in the winter unless I closed them off tight.

This About That: Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

That's the thing - the attic above the bedrooms IS insulated.  It has blown insulation between the bedroom ceilings and the attic floor (it's a walk up attic) and rolled thin foil insulation on the floor.  The only other thing I can insulate is the clapboard roof the tin is nailed to, presumably with hard foam insulation, but I'm worried about doing that because it would make water leaks harder to find.  Also, since either end of the attic has a full size 4.5 foot window on it, I'm not sure if it would do any good.  Insulating the attic floor seemed like the best option at some point, and I'm inclined to agree with whoever made that decision.

Here's a picture of the bedroom attic with an inspector and our real estate agent during a walkthrough.  You can see the blown insulation, the back of the tin from the roof, the floorboards, and you can barely make out a window behind the inspector.  The only thing we've added since this picture was taken was foil insulation on top of the floorboards, but it didn't seem to help much.



I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so.  What made the house tolerable when it was built - 19 million windows, works against it now.


Have you sealed where the wall cavities meet the attic? I know if air can move between the attic, walls, and crawlspace then rising air in the walls will draw cold air up from under the house in the winter, making even insulated walls cold. In the summer it lets hot attic air surround you bedrooms, rather than just sit on top.

The current recommendation in our area would be at least double your current attic insulation depth, too. Just because you have insulation up there doesn't mean it's enough. And fixing air penetrations between house and attic would do more than insulation if no one's bothered to on past improvements.
 
2013-01-27 10:45:46 AM
Are you a customer of theirs? Then somewhere along the line you probably did sign a contract without even realizing it.

Yes, I am a customer and I pay bills every month. No, I didn't sign a contract. I made a phone call, gave them the address and our names. I signed nothing.
 
2013-01-27 10:49:15 AM

phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.


You can't see the benefit of what amounts to a real time surveillance system inside people's homes? Well for one, lots of companies are willing to pay good money for that sort of information. You haven't noticed how all sorts of corporations are busy collecting every single scrap of data they can on people? You used to have to buy something by card, or type something into Google for them to get something. Now every time you switch something on, they get more info on you. Instead of a super secret department, there's a fine print clause in your contract saying they can use or sell your data in any way they wish.

I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I h ...

The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details on how they do it.
 
2013-01-27 10:51:10 AM

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


Then leave the AC on you dolt. He wasn't saying the power company could control these things, he was saying if you know more about your usage, you can adjust your habits.
 
2013-01-27 10:51:50 AM
Good advice from Skirl. If I remember reading here earlier it was mentioned putting insulation directly against the underside of the roof. That is not a good thing. It will trap condensing moisture. Same with insulating the underside of the first floor, same situation. Mold will be the result.
 
2013-01-27 10:51:59 AM
I'm torn on this one.

On one hand, the reason these people are citing for not wanting smart meters in their homes (supposed health effects of RF transmission) is totally retarded.

On the other hand, the fact that the city is sending armed escorts to facilitate trespass on someone's property is an outrage.

Both sides are asshats, but in this case, I have to shake my head and take sides with the RF nutters. What the police/city is doing is inexcusable.
 
2013-01-27 10:54:35 AM
Really these two should have just called the power company demanded the socialist electricity be blocked from their houses. I'm sure the power company would have obliged.
 
2013-01-27 10:56:05 AM
You REALLY want to turn up the Derp? Hang a foil American flag over the meter to block the signal. Then video tape the power company tearing it down!
 
2013-01-27 11:01:28 AM

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Yeah, because fark night workers right? I mean sure, you'd like to be taken care of after your late night car crash, but that'll just have to wait till tomorrow. See, our underpaid night workers like to sleep with the AC on, because it's hot during the day. And bright. But of course they should pay more for that privilege, right? Because the world operates exactly within your preconceived notions of what is normal right? Your experience is representative of everyone else's.


it is a fact that it costs more to generate electricity during peak demand times than during lower demand times. If I use more electricity during the evening, when it's cheaper to generate, why should I pay the same as the guy who uses more during the day? Smart meters will allow power companies to make that distinction. I have no problem with this. Fossil energy sources are going to run out, and the only way to make people understand that this is a real crisis is market pressures of various types. Then maybe they'll begin to understand why the time to research alternatives is NOW, not when we're out of coal and oil.
 
2013-01-27 11:04:52 AM
If you really think the reason for installing these is anything other than some very rich people making very lucrative back room deals for the sole purpose of grabbing more cash from average citizens, I've got a bridge to sell you.

It's only a small bridge, but a bridge nonetheless.
 
2013-01-27 11:05:03 AM
Why can't they just move?

Isn't that the Libertarian argument for when you are not satisfied or don' like what your local or state government is doing?
 
2013-01-27 11:06:06 AM

ExJerseyGirl: What I found disturbing was that one of the women was arrested for filming the police.


On her own property of all places. That is bullshiat.
 
2013-01-27 11:10:37 AM
Private property rights are a nice fantasy.
 
2013-01-27 11:14:03 AM

phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis.


One simple example: "People in this neighborhood turn on their TVs at 5:30. Maybe a business in that neighborhood might like to buy advertising at 5:31??"
 
2013-01-27 11:15:35 AM
They do realize all that model does is send the number on the meter back to the power company? It doesn't have the relays to cut power, affect power or anything else? That takes a collar. It keeps them from having to send meter readers into contact with nutters like them. That's it.
 
2013-01-27 11:18:16 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-27 11:18:19 AM

Bad_Seed: The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details on how they do it.



Well, that's a surprise, and I stand corrected.

In that case, on this point I'll agree with your identification of the security risk of having this capability, and I'm still leery about whether it makes economic sense. It has to add like $100 to the price the utility pays for each meter.

And especially if it uses power semiconductors it damn well better be extremely robust and resistant to power surges. Imagine a routine thunderstorm coming through and frying every one of these in a city -- every house without power until every single one of the meters is replaced or retrofitted, what a nightmare that would be ... Hopefully there's a well written standard and compliance testing in place to make sure the meters aren't junk.
 
2013-01-27 11:19:13 AM

steveGswine: mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby

And then FTA: Malia "Kim" Bendis of the 2200 block of Mercer Court was charged with two misdemeanors - attempted eavesdropping and resisting a peace officer.

"Attempted eavesdropping"? How hard do you have to work to get busted for "attempted eavesdropping"?


It's probably just a run-of-the-mill eavesdropping law (to protect people's privacy) that is written in such a way that the accused can't use the "sure I planted a microphone/put a cup to the wall/hiding in the bushes... but I didn't actually hear anything, so I didn't technically eavesdrop" defense.

That or the actual eavesdropping law is poorly written and the cops use the "attempted" version to make sure someone can't use the excuse I outlined above.
 
2013-01-27 11:22:27 AM

Bad_Seed: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.

You can't see the benefit of what amounts to a real time surveillance system inside people's homes? Well for one, lots of companies are willing to pay good money for that sort of information. You haven't noticed how all sorts of corporations are busy collecting every single scrap of data they can on people? You used to have to buy something by card, or type something into Google for them to get something. Now every time you switch something on, they get more info on you. Instead of a super secret department, there's a fine print clause in your contract saying they can use or sell your data in any way they wish.

I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I h ...

The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details o ...


That's on the advance meters. You only install those on problem properties with multiple cutoffs. It's not economical to put an expensive cutoff relay on everyone. Again, it's a wireless meter reader. That is literally it, and the unwashed masses continue to prove themselves so dumb that helmets ought to be mandated.
 
2013-01-27 11:25:44 AM
Smart meters that affect your health? This whole argument sounds very tin-foil hattish.

Security? Hey if a thief wants to know if you're home or not there's a much less sophisticated way of determining this called knocking on the door.

And yes, the electric company owns those meters. It's their property. Like it or not they can do whatever they bloody well please with them. And if they have a court order (which they did in this case, hence the police escort) you legally have no recourse.

Now if they damage your property, you can take them to court. But that's about it.

These people are morons.
 
2013-01-27 11:29:55 AM

Riche: I'm happy with the concept of smart meters-- it's just the implementation that has me concerned.

 Wireless for sending/receiving data-- INCLUDING the ability to shut off power? Jesus, what a bad idea.  I'm sure it was MUCH cheaper than designing the meters to do signaling over the power lines themselves (which IS doable BTW, especially for the tiny amount of data being sent/received) but this will come back to bite people in the ass someday.

Sooner or later some self-proclaimed member of Anonymous is going to be shutting off power across huge residential sections of a city with a hacked Wi-Fi router and a Dixie Cup. Just because he can. Then the plans for his little gadget will be posted on 4chan and we're going to have a real nationwide nightmare on our hands.

Yeah, I have no doubt the power companies will claim that their wireless security is top notch. The best ever developed.  Yeah, right.

And what happens when something breaks/gets jammed and the signal can't get through for an extended period?  Does the meter shut off power to the house on its own after a certain duration of no contact?

Right now the "demand" pricing scheme is optional -- at least in my area.  How long before somebody decides by fiat to force everybody to live with it?


That all may be true, however, the electric company owns the meter. It's their property.

Hell. If we're going that direction, lets talk about how the Chinese have already hacked the power grid.

As someone said before. Solution: solar panels and a pair of insulated bolt cutters.
 
2013-01-27 11:32:08 AM

HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.


Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.
 
2013-01-27 11:33:17 AM

Void_Beavis: And yes, the electric company owns those meters. It's their property. Like it or not they can do whatever they bloody well please with them. And if they have a court order (which they did in this case, hence the police escort) you legally have no recourse.


Well, they should have found a way to access their property without trespassing on someone else's property. This whole "We'll get a judge to let us break the law" thing is what people are up in arms about. They are trespassing on someone else's property.

Why is the electric company's property more important than their customer's* property?

*I use the term loosely, since "customer" implies a relationship where there's a choice.
 
2013-01-27 11:36:01 AM
Ah, wifi fear. Nothing like suffering due to your own rebranding.

It's a freaking walkie talkie for Christ's sake.
 
2013-01-27 11:36:52 AM
Alright...I work at a public power utility. I was on the team to evaluate a business case for deploying smart meters. We have a test center with different types of smart meters to learn more about their behaviors. We've also disassembled a few.

The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs. Item two allows us to respond to outage faster. The faster we get the power back on, the faster we start earning revenue again.

The ability to do a remote power on/off is available as an option on many meters. It's essentially a relay switch within the meter. The one I'm most familiar with can only be remotely powered on/off a few times before the meter has to be replaced. This option has to be specifically ordered with the meter and it is about $100 extra per meter. We considered them for customers who have a history of nonpayment.

The ability to watch the power load curves throughout the day is another optional setting. Yes, we can probably infer when you wake up, leave, come home, etc. But unless we are actually watching your house, we would be guessing, Yes, we can infer when your dryer or stove went on. But we don't know unless we see you turn it on or you put sensors on your appliances that you allowed to be hooked to your smart meter and report it to us. We don't have the time nor the people to monitor things like this. We have enough problems dealing with federal regulations and keeping the power on.

Unless you give us the ability, we cannot turn on or off your AC. You would need to put a remote control device on your AC and then give us access to it.

Your microwave puts out more radiation than the meter does.

Security of meter data is a huge issue and I'm not convinced they have it locked down yet. Could someone hack the meter and shut it down? Quite possibly. Would someone take the time to hack one person at a time? Probably not. They would probably try to kill a few thousand meters at once. Or just attack the transmission grid itself.

For most utilities, we own everything up to the meter. The meter socket, the weatherhead, and the line down to the service panel belong to the customer. We retain the right to access and maintain our equipment, including the meter. If we find the customer equipment to be damaged and a danger, we will remove our meter, disconnect the service line, and will not reenergize the house until repairs are made and inspected.

For our utility, the thought behind giving people access to their load data is so that they can choose to conserve energy or not. We would just be providing data and answering questions on said data. The final result of our study was that installing smart meters was a break even proposition over a 15 year pay back. We almost pulled the trigger on the project, but we needed to replace a few IT systems first to handle the amount of data. We'll probably do something in afew years.
 
2013-01-27 11:38:57 AM

Mechanicum: HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.

Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.


Correct. Additionally it's against the law to deny access to the power company to service their equipment on your property. And it's against the law to tamper with that equipment, or to threaten or perform violent acts to those service people. It's also against the law to allow your attack dog to guard that property, denying access to it.

Fact remains, these are laws. They've been in existence for quite some time. They've been challenged in court. If you don't like them, you may also challenge them or vote for someone who will repeal them in your legislature. But to wave your arms around claiming its a totalitarian takeover is not only disingenuous, it's asinine.
 
2013-01-27 11:39:12 AM

Mrtraveler01: mr_a: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-24/news/chi-naperville-sma r t-meter-arrest-20130123_1_meter-opponents-smart-meter-wireless-meters

Seems legit.  And Jenny seems hot.

//not subby

FTFA:

Two vocal opponents of Naperville's initiative to install wireless electric meters on homes were arrested after interfering with the installation process, according to city officials.

This is a city ordinance they're fighting against? It's not even a Federal or State Law they're protesting? So why is Breitbart biatching?

Jesus Christ, just move to Aurora, Plainfield, or Joliet already and STFU.


Naperville has serious coin, the others are shiat holes - plus gangs.

/lived and born in aurora...had to go
//was nice in the 70's
 
2013-01-27 11:39:52 AM
 
2013-01-27 11:40:01 AM
These women are not mentally competent to raise children. They should have been taken away and locked up a long time ago, along with everyone else who believes that the RF emitted by a smart meter is somehow going to kill them, when none of the other radiation emitting devices in their homes will.

Get a farking life, Breitbart. The world will be better when we round up your collection of drooling idiots, too.
 
2013-01-27 11:40:39 AM
Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.
 
2013-01-27 11:40:51 AM

Mattbastard: mrlewish: Solution. Solar panels.
Insulated bolt cutters.

Actually...

[media.thereadystore.com image 365x320]
Seriously, put it around the meter.


It also makes great reflectors for government mind control.

weeklyworldnews.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-27 11:42:20 AM
So, if I understand the article correctly, they got arrested, in part, for violating a law that SCOTUS just found unconstitutional. Brilliant.
 
2013-01-27 11:43:24 AM

HoneyDog: Seriously. Time to stop posting. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Take your own advice. You were proven wrong when you accused me of making things up.


My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. Then when it was proven that they couldn't, you played it off as "that's not what I meant" and "I''m not that dumb" when your own comments show otherwise. Then you claim that you didn't actually sign anything like a contract and when it's shown that you don't have to and a verbal contract is enough for them to cut your power/read your meter/access your property you're still acting like a moron about it. This entire thread has been a big farking FAIL on your part and all you're doing is making yourself look foolish(which is pretty hard to do on Fark). Anybody reading through it can see that. And WhippingBoy is right, you should have stopped while you were ahead.
 
2013-01-27 11:43:43 AM

skylabdown: Private property rights are a nice fantasy.


To my knowledge, no one is forced to use public utilities, and the property easements that come along with them.
 
2013-01-27 11:45:05 AM
My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.
 
2013-01-27 11:45:26 AM

fredklein: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis.

One simple example: "People in this neighborhood turn on their TVs at 5:30. Maybe a business in that neighborhood might like to buy advertising at 5:31??"


If you're claiming that these things are monitoring individual appliances, that's a pretty extraordinary claim that I believes deserves a citation.
 
2013-01-27 11:46:13 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: When I first moved into my apartment here, I was leaving for work and a woman dressed in the power utility uniform tried to enter the building just as I left. We have an automatic door which requires either a key or someone to buzz you in. She had been standing just outside the door waiting for someone to come out so she could sneak in.

I stopped her and asked her what she was doing trying to sneak in. She said she was coming to check the power meter. Granted the power meters for each apartment are on the inside of the building, and so the power company reader would have to come into the building somehow.

I ushered her back outside and suggested she call the building manager if she wanted access. We waited outside the automatic door until it closed and locked and I left for work. I suppose she stood around the entrance until someone else came out.

I don't have a problem with power meter readers coming in, but I'm certainly not the one to be authorizing that kind of thing for the whole building. If they need to read the meters, they should either have an access key or have an appointment with the manager to let them in. Sneaking in by skulking around the door waiting for people to leave seems really unprofessional and suspicious.


So does your landlord not providing a key or meeting the meter reader in front of the building.
 
2013-01-27 11:47:19 AM
I wonder which one of these idiots would vote for the massive tax increases and higher power costs, not to mention the environmental impact, of having to upgrade our aging power grid "dumbly" just so they can have their "rights". Which aren't even "rights" at all since the power company actually owns this equipment.

Something tells me none of them.
 
2013-01-27 11:47:55 AM

Beretta3000: The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs.


Why should I be worried about your company's costs? Unless the power company is planning on passing those savings on to me in the form of a reduced bill (LOL ROFL)

What instead ends up happening, is that the cost savings of smart meters do not get passed to customers. People who opt out simply get charged extra. So, I'm paying the same rate to help the power company save money, and my neighbor (who doesn't have a smart meter) gets his rates jacked up just because fark you). So whether or not you submit to having a smart meter, you're still getting screwed and the power company wins.
 
2013-01-27 11:48:04 AM
I think that if those people don't want to have power company equipment so they can have power they don't have to. It isn't a right or anything. Cut their power and be done with them.
 
2013-01-27 11:48:09 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Well, they should have found a way to access their property without trespassing on someone else's property. This whole "We'll get a judge to let us break the law" thing is what people are up in arms about. They are trespassing on someone else's property.

Why is the electric company's property more important than their customer's* property?

*I use the term loosely, since "customer" implies a relationship where there's a choice.


You are also using the term trespassing very loosely, since that implies illegal access. They could have chosen to keep their old meters and pay the fee, but refused. Or they could have chosen not to get electricity. Either was their right, but they did not have the right to stop the electric company accessing the meters. But since they still want electricity, they have to have a meter, and that meter is part of the utility easement.

From the Illinois Commerce Commission Rules Applicable to Electric and Natural Gas Utilities:
Under Theft of Services:
Tampering

Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.

Don't want to let them get to their meter? Don't get your electricity from them.
 
2013-01-27 11:48:49 AM

Vegetative reproduction: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mrtraveler01: And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.

Rf devices are usually pretty easy to break into. They're not concerned with what info the electric company has on them, they're worried that these devices essentially open up their data for the world to see. And quite honestly, the fees they must pay to maintain the same type of data collection they always had are absurdly high.

It is a lot easier to walk up to a new or old fashioned meter and see how fast it is spinning than to scan for an RF signal.


Can you do that from your car? Can you do it on several houses at once? Can you manually check meters as fast as a signal can travel?

Walking into the yard of dozens of people will attract attention, driving slowly down the street will not.
 
2013-01-27 11:49:35 AM

Beretta3000: Alright...I work at a public power utility. I was on the team to evaluate a business case for deploying smart meters. We have a test center with different types of smart meters to learn more about their behaviors. We've also disassembled a few.

The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs. Item two allows us to respond to outage faster. The faster we get the power back on, the faster we start earning revenue again.

The ability to do a remote power on/off is available as an option on many meters. It's essentially a relay switch within the meter. The one I'm most familiar with can only be remotely powered on/off a few times before the meter has to be replaced. This option has to be specifically ordered with the meter and it is about $100 extra per meter. We considered them for customers who have a history of nonpayment.

The ability to watch the power load curves throughout the day is another optional setting. Yes, we can probably infer when you wake up, leave, come home, etc. But unless we are actually watching your house, we would be guessing, Yes, we can infer when your dryer or stove went on. But we don't know unless we see you turn it on or you put sensors on your appliances that you allowed to be hooked to your smart meter and report it to us. We don't have the time nor the people to monitor things like this. We have enough problems dealing with federal regulations and keeping the power on.

Unless you give us the ability, we cannot turn on or off your AC. You would need to put a remote control device on your AC and then give us access to it.

Your microwave puts out more radiation than the meter does.

Security of meter data is a huge issue and I'm not convinced they have it locked down yet. ...


No, you're wrong. Why should we take your word over the word of a housewife who has no degree in Electrical Engineering or any experience whatsoever with what she's talking about?
 
2013-01-27 11:49:41 AM

HoneyDog: What the HELL are you talking about???

Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.

And as an aside, our local power company just was granted a rate increase. Why? Because so many of us were using our power wisely that they were losing money due to decreased demand. Fun little scenario: 1) urge people to use less so they save money, 2) people respond by getting more energy efficient gadgets and being wise with their power usage, 3) power company raises rates so all savings the people realized by following their original suggestions goes up in smoke.


Umm, quit talking, please. You're just making yourself look more stupid. A smart meter does not control the AC in your home. All it does is enable real time monitoring of your meter. People have explained this to you many times in this thread.
 
2013-01-27 11:49:55 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Void_Beavis: And yes, the electric company owns those meters. It's their property. Like it or not they can do whatever they bloody well please with them. And if they have a court order (which they did in this case, hence the police escort) you legally have no recourse.

Well, they should have found a way to access their property without trespassing on someone else's property. This whole "We'll get a judge to let us break the law" thing is what people are up in arms about. They are trespassing on someone else's property.

Why is the electric company's property more important than their customer's* property?

*I use the term loosely, since "customer" implies a relationship where there's a choice.


Except for the fact that this has been argued in court and defeated. Many times.
 
2013-01-27 11:50:37 AM

HoneyDog: My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.


Yeah, after you were called on it. Here's your exact question(your Weeners).

How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

You were serious when you asked that question. When it was pointed out you were wrong you then proceeded to act as if that's not what you "really" meant. Now you're saying you were joking about it. No you weren't. And it's damn plain to see that you weren't.
 
2013-01-27 11:51:09 AM

HoneyDog: My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.


Oh for the love of Christ. No one is buying it. This was your Boobies and nothing seems to indicate it was tongue in cheek. This is perhaps one of the most stupid arguments I've seen on Fark in a very long time.

HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.


How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?


If you really were trying to come across as tongue in cheek, then you did a terrible job at it.
 
2013-01-27 11:52:06 AM

udhq: To my knowledge, no one is forced to use public utilities, and the property easements that come along with them.


Fortunately, where I live, the weather extremes aren't deadly. But for many people, without electricity, they would die. And many places forbid stuff like diesel generators and solar panels (think townhomes/apartment complexes) So their choice is between the power company or death. Sounds like a legit choice.
 
2013-01-27 11:53:31 AM

Bad_Seed: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis. Since that kind of data is the exact opposite of "interesting", why bother to collect it at all? Also, supposing they *did* do that, wouldn't they need some kind of super secret department with all its workers sworn to secrecy to make sure the embarrassing info doesn't become public? It makes more sense to me that a smart meter only keeps track of the Watt-hours used during the various billing periods.

You can't see the benefit of what amounts to a real time surveillance system inside people's homes? Well for one, lots of companies are willing to pay good money for that sort of information. You haven't noticed how all sorts of corporations are busy collecting every single scrap of data they can on people? You used to have to buy something by card, or type something into Google for them to get something. Now every time you switch something on, they get more info on you. Instead of a super secret department, there's a fine print clause in your contract saying they can use or sell your data in any way they wish.

I'm an electrical engineer, but my area of expertise is industrial controls & instrumentation as opposed to utilities and services, so I *could* be mistaken here -- any good Electrician should be better informed on this than I am, hopefully there's one on Fark who can weigh in and confirm or deny what I'm about to say -- but the component you'd need to remotely disconnect a 100A or 200A electrical service would be either an electromechanical or solid-state relay, either one of which would be physically large at those sizes - at least as big if not bigger than a traditional residential Watt-hour meter. Alternately they could mount these remotely somewhere, I guess. Me, I h ...

The manufacturer says they can. They don't go into details o ...


You read that wrong... it said it can disconnect the meter, not the power. There's a difference there when it comes to smart meters. Disconnecting the meter and reconnecting it is useful for when the connection goes wonky (which happens a lot in a wireless connection). And seeing as electric meters are connected to the system as a tap, not as a break point, phaseolus is correct, the meter itself cannot interrupt the power. There is still a manual cutoff that they would need to send out a technician for. Having just resided the house, and gotten my meter replaced with a smart meter, and as a network engineer by trade, I was very interested in this device going in and was present at the wiring. The technician was very helpful in describing what exactly the process was for how it monitors and what information it delivers. And I never lost power when they were switching the meter, so yeah, there's no break point in these meters. All they do is tap into the flow of electricity coming in (or out, depending on how you view the theory of electricity and electron flow) and measure how fast it's going.
 
2013-01-27 11:54:04 AM
Ha, autocorrect change (your first) to (your Weeners) in my previous comment. How strange.
 
2013-01-27 11:54:13 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Beretta3000: The two biggest benefits provide immediately to a utility are the ability to remotely read the meter without sending anyone out to either visually see the meter or drive by it and the tell the utility your power is out without anyone having to notify us. Item one saves on personnel and vehicle costs.

Why should I be worried about your company's costs? Unless the power company is planning on passing those savings on to me in the form of a reduced bill (LOL ROFL)

What instead ends up happening, is that the cost savings of smart meters do not get passed to customers. People who opt out simply get charged extra. So, I'm paying the same rate to help the power company save money, and my neighbor (who doesn't have a smart meter) gets his rates jacked up just because fark you). So whether or not you submit to having a smart meter, you're still getting screwed and the power company wins.


For the private utilities, your point is dead on.

On the public utility side, we are trying to prevent future rate increases with this technology.
 
2013-01-27 11:54:31 AM

roadmarks: Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.


I'll admit I didn't know that (a first on Fark for sure), however I'd say the fact that a trespass exemption is actually written in law is even more of an outrage!
 
2013-01-27 11:56:37 AM

Void_Beavis: I wonder which one of these idiots would vote for the massive tax increases and higher power costs, not to mention the environmental impact, of having to upgrade our aging power grid "dumbly" just so they can have their "rights". Which aren't even "rights" at all since the power company actually owns this equipment.

Something tells me none of them.


This isn't upgrading our power grid in the slightest.  All it is doing is maximizing the amount of money the electric company can siphon off from you.

Our aging power grid (here in the Northeast) is still not completely repaired from a storm from late October.  Talk about a joke.  We're third farking world country when it comes to distributing energy. The German power grid has outages at an average rate of 21 minutes per year. (you read that right... an average of 21 minutes)
 
2013-01-27 12:00:51 PM

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Customers are prohibited by law from removing, tampering with, or bypassing the meter and must provide any authorized company representative access to the meter and the company's other equipment. The meter must be kept free from obstructions, pets must be restrained, and obstacles must be removed that would prevent the meter reader from correctly reading the meter.

I'll admit I didn't know that (a first on Fark for sure), however I'd say the fact that a trespass exemption is actually written in law is even more of an outrage!


Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?
 
2013-01-27 12:02:14 PM

WhippingBoy:

No, you're wrong. Why should we take your word over the word of a housewife who has no degree in Electrical Engineering or any experience whatsoever with what she's talking about?


You're right. I don't know I was thinking.

/slinks back into the dark
 
2013-01-27 12:06:54 PM
No, you didn't. You were called out and changed your story. Sort of how you refuse to provide evidence for the meters being a net cost.

Did you miss this? (and yep, it was posted by somebody else, but anybody could easily have found it if they weren't too lazy to look:

After receiving numerous complaints about health, hacking, and privacy concerns with the wireless digital devices, the Public Utility Commission of the US state of Maine voted to allow customers to opt out of the meter change at a cost of $12 a month.[18] In Connecticut, another US state to consider smart metering recently, regulators declined a request by the state's largest utility, Connecticut Light & Power, to install 1.2 million of the devices, arguing that the potential savings in electric bills do not justify the cost. CL&P already offers its customers time-based rates. The state's Attorney General George Jepsen was quoted as saying the proposal would cause customers to spend upwards of $500 million on meters and get few benefits in return, a claim that Connecticut Light & Power disputed.[19]
 
2013-01-27 12:07:57 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: HoneyDog: My god, anybody reading this thread will see that you assumed that the power company could turn your AC down with these meters since you asked about it's affect on your dog/s. T

Keep reading, in one post I point blank said that I said that tongue in cheek. Thanks for playing though.

No, you didn't. You were called out and changed your story. Sort of how you refuse to provide evidence for the meters being a net cost. Instead you told everyone to "Study it out" (ogoogle it). Or you refuse to believe that you entered a contract when you set up you electric acct. Stop being obtuse, I know you can't help being stupid.

I actually bothered to google it, and even posted a citation showing that the CT attorney general found no evidence that the meters would repay their own cost. If you think a company is going to give you a device that helps you pay them less money, you've got to be pathetically, comically, naive.


Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific. If you believe the AG is looking out for you,you've got to be pathetically, comically, naive.
 
2013-01-27 12:08:01 PM
DNRTFA
DNRTFThread

They threatened the installers, didn't they? And then some idiot on Breitbart turned it into a Really Big Deal. And then a bigger idiot submitted it to Fark. And then the King of the Idiots greenlit it.

That about cover it?

/ what kind of imbecile wouldn't want a smart meter?
// he said in a country full of imbeciles who think that CFL bulbs are the end of all things....
 
2013-01-27 12:08:03 PM

BunkyBrewman: This isn't upgrading our power grid in the slightest. All it is doing is maximizing the amount of money the electric company can siphon off from you.

Our aging power grid (here in the Northeast) is still not completely repaired from a storm from late October. Talk about a joke. We're third farking world country when it comes to distributing energy. The German power grid has outages at an average rate of 21 minutes per year. (you read that right... an average of 21 minutes)


Yeah, mostly about that but it does keep meter readers from having to deal with assholes and dogs.

The home my ex-wife got in the divorce has 4 big dogs in a fenced yard and the only way they could read our meter was to come on the property. They would have to call in advance and someone would have to leave work to be on site when they arrived. It was a hassle for everybody involved and this will surely help resolve that problem. Not sure how much more money that'll make for Florida Power and Light though, but it's always about money to those folks.
 
2013-01-27 12:08:27 PM
Seen from the 99%er viewpoint, this sucks and will continue to suck. A utility is a natural monopoly because they built (or bought) the infrastructure to deliver the service to your house, and local utility commissions "protect the public interest" by setting rates that are "fair and balanced". This concept doesn't obtain in situations where the CEO of the power company is married to the sister of the utility commission, but hey who's complaining. It's just like compulsory auto insurance: legalized extortion. But really, this is no new news in America. Even the youngest among us can realize that populations exist increasingly for the benefit of the rich. And those of us over 40? Sh*t dog, good luck having any liberty at all in 50 years.

udhq is right - the only way to be free from the utility company's policies is to disconnect from the grid.
 
2013-01-27 12:09:02 PM
There's no constitutional right to electricity. Instead of arresting them though, the power company should just uninstall all meters and cut off electricity to their homes. If they don't want the electric company's services they can install solar panels or have a hamster generating electricity on a wheel or something. It would be interesting to see how long she can go without watching Fox News in her house.
 
2013-01-27 12:13:00 PM

roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?


I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.
 
2013-01-27 12:13:26 PM

Mechanicum: You only install those on problem properties with multiple cutoffs. It's not economical to put an expensive cutoff relay on everyone. Again, it's a wireless meter reader. That is literally it, and the unwashed masses continue to prove themselves so dumb that helmets ought to be mandated.


Beretta3000: Alright...I work at a public power utility. I was on the team to evaluate a business case for deploying smart meters. We have a test center with different types of smart meters to learn more about their behaviors. We've also disassembled a few. ... The ability to do a remote power on/off is available as an option on many meters. It's essentially a relay switch within the meter. The one I'm most familiar with can only be remotely powered on/off a few times before the meter has to be replaced. This option has to be specifically ordered with the meter and it is about $100 extra per meter. We considered them for customers who have a history of nonpayment.



Thanks, now it makes more sense.

Out of curiosity, about the expensive meters with the remote disconnect option -- are they engineered to survive all of the spikes and noise you'd reasonably expect to see on the incoming power from nearby lightning strikes or whatever? What about the electronics on all of the meters? And since this technology's been around a few years now, has the hardware demonstrated that it's likely to pretty much forever like the old meters?
 
2013-01-27 12:13:47 PM

stiletto_the_wise: udhq: To my knowledge, no one is forced to use public utilities, and the property easements that come along with them.

Fortunately, where I live, the weather extremes aren't deadly. But for many people, without electricity, they would die. And many places forbid stuff like diesel generators and solar panels (think townhomes/apartment complexes) So their choice is between the power company or death. Sounds like a legit choice.


You know, I'm not totally unsympathetic to this POV, I just think that people choose to sacrifice a small-but-reasonable amount of sovereignty when they choose to live in major population/economic centers.

I mean, how could we operate these collectivized, socialist public utilities if their administrators are not allowed access to the point of delivery? Because of the way a lot of them are set up, one bad link in the chain can knock out service to entire towns. I think the minor inconvenience that the women in TFA are protesting is worth the benefit of public power, water, sewer, etc., and if a person disagrees, they're free to move somewhere off the grid.
 
2013-01-27 12:14:28 PM
Again, whether the meters are to be used for a rate increase or not isn't the issue. The fact remains, they're owned by the power company and they have special exemptions to trespassing law to be able to service and replace them.

Power costs have increased over the past 100 years. Big surprise. They get more expensive as we lean more on foreign sources to supply it. And they get more expensive as we realize and try to correct adverse environmental impact caused by the generation thereof. Not to mention the dismantling of public dollars contributing to lengthening of the normal service life of equipment to transmit it from one place to another, leading to higher maintenance costs to upkeep.

So yeah, I guess the meter is the reason why the power bill keeps going up... ROFL.
 
2013-01-27 12:15:11 PM

Stephen_Falken: udhq is right - the only way to be free from the utility company's policies is to disconnect from the grid.


Oftentimes, disconnecting from the grid is not an option because you can only afford to live in an apartment or town home. You either do business with the power company or die.
 
2013-01-27 12:15:14 PM

ZodiacMan: There's no constitutional right to electricity. Instead of arresting them though, the power company should just uninstall all meters and cut off electricity to their homes. If they don't want the electric company's services they can install solar panels or have a hamster generating electricity on a wheel or something. It would be interesting to see how long she can go without watching Fox News in her house.


I like the cut of your jib.
 
2013-01-27 12:15:39 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Have you sealed where the wall cavities meet the attic? I know if air can move between the attic, walls, and crawlspace then rising air in the walls will draw cold air up from under the house in the winter, making even insulated walls cold. In the summer it lets hot attic air surround you bedrooms, rather than just sit on top.


At the top, yes.  The walls are all clapboard, wireframe, and plaster, so getting inside them is not trivial.  From what I've seen there isn't that much of a gap in the walls to begin with.
 
2013-01-27 12:17:15 PM
This is something that the derpers have been agitating about for over a year now. It appeals to the usual chemtrailers and troofers, but the right-wing media has been pushing it hard to rile other folks up.
 
2013-01-27 12:17:40 PM

machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.


Bald assertion. Cite your source.

machodonkeywrestler: If you believe the AG is looking out for you,you've got to be pathetically, comically, naive.


Yeah, the AG never takes up causes in the public interest! I don't know how it works in your state, but ours is generally pretty helpful, so your attempt to reverse my "zing" just made you look a bit retarded.
 
2013-01-27 12:18:48 PM

HoneyDog: Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.


First, when you called the power company, you were agreeing to an implicit contract.

Now, look at the back of your bill or statement. Read the tiny little words. When you made your first payment, you agreed to the TOS and sealed the contract.
 
2013-01-27 12:20:55 PM

machodonkeywrestler: HoneyDog: What the HELL are you talking about???

Do try to follow the conversation. I said, sarcastically, that why should a power company be allowed to use a smart meter to turn off my AC during the day when nobody is home. (obviously it isn't something possible at this time). Some fool thought should turn it off during the day or at least be charged a different rate. So my response is why should my dogs suffer or die because the AC is off during the day. The same fool said was my prerogative to have my AC on during the day. So I was merely mentioning that I have a programmable thermostat so I can set it to be warmer but not off when we are out of the house.

And as an aside, our local power company just was granted a rate increase. Why? Because so many of us were using our power wisely that they were losing money due to decreased demand. Fun little scenario: 1) urge people to use less so they save money, 2) people respond by getting more energy efficient gadgets and being wise with their power usage, 3) power company raises rates so all savings the people realized by following their original suggestions goes up in smoke.

Umm, quit talking, please. You're just making yourself look more stupid. A smart meter does not control the AC in your home. All it does is enable real time monitoring of your meter. People have explained this to you many times in this thread.


You're correct.  It's another piece of hardware from the power company separate from the smart meter.
 
2013-01-27 12:21:39 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.


GOOGLE IT!
 
2013-01-27 12:22:20 PM

HoneyDog: When you signed your contract with the utility company

What contract? I didn't say a contract for any of my utilities.


It's called "Terms of Service", and you don't have to sign it. You imply consent by VOLUNTARILY using their service.

Your local municipal code / zoning laws also give them right of way on eavesments.
 
2013-01-27 12:23:37 PM

draa: BunkyBrewman: This isn't upgrading our power grid in the slightest. All it is doing is maximizing the amount of money the electric company can siphon off from you.

Our aging power grid (here in the Northeast) is still not completely repaired from a storm from late October. Talk about a joke. We're third farking world country when it comes to distributing energy. The German power grid has outages at an average rate of 21 minutes per year. (you read that right... an average of 21 minutes)

Yeah, mostly about that but it does keep meter readers from having to deal with assholes and dogs.

The home my ex-wife got in the divorce has 4 big dogs in a fenced yard and the only way they could read our meter was to come on the property. They would have to call in advance and someone would have to leave work to be on site when they arrived. It was a hassle for everybody involved and this will surely help resolve that problem. Not sure how much more money that'll make for Florida Power and Light though, but it's always about money to those folks.


Didn't stop PECO from coming on my property and changing out the meter.  farking useless dogs of mine.  Wouldn't be surprised if they invited the utility guys in the house to show them where the treats are.
 
2013-01-27 12:25:59 PM

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.


I can agree on not letting them in my house, not so much with forbidding them in my yard. Half of the point of smart meters is that they can be read remotely, therefore you don't ever have to let them in your yard again.

Smart meters cost anywhere from ~$80 to over $500 - and that is just for the meter itself, not the installation. I would rather not have to pay that cost up front to get electricity for my home. I would rather that the company be responsible for the maintenance on it as well. I don't have a landline in my house that I use, but if I did, I would have to pay someone to come over and set everything up from the exterior wall of my house, because they are no longer owned by the phone companies.

To me, at least, electricity is much more of a necessity than a phone, and I would rather not have unexpected maintenance bills come up to keep the oxygen machine in the house working.
 
2013-01-27 12:26:27 PM

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.


The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.
 
2013-01-27 12:26:28 PM

HoneyDog: Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.


Doesn't matter. You don't need to *sign something* to enter into a contract. You used their service, you paid their bill, you've agreed to their terms.
 
2013-01-27 12:26:29 PM

WhippingBoy: BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.

GOOGLE IT!


You're confusing me with something else.
 
2013-01-27 12:27:04 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: WhippingBoy: BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.

GOOGLE IT!

You're confusing me with something someone else.

 
2013-01-27 12:28:04 PM

phaseolus:
Thanks, now it makes more sense.

Out of curiosity, about the expensive meters with the remote disconnect option -- are they engineered to survive all of the spikes and noise you'd reasonably expect to see on the incoming power from nearby lightning strikes or whatever? What about the electronics on all of the meters? And since this technology's been around a few years now, has the hardware demonstrated that it's likely to pretty much forever like the old meters?


For the most part, they seem to weather surges and noise. We have lightning arresters, grounds, and capacitors all over the place to knock this down as much as possible. We also had the AMR (drive by style radio meters) and digital meters around for over a decade, and they do fine.

As for length of life...the analog meters don't last as long as people think. But we can rebuild them over and over again. Smart meters, not so much. We don't have enough data yet to figure out how hardy they are. An analog can last 30 years. Smart meters might have a life of 15 years, but we're not sure yet.

One thing about analog meters: people who go from analog to digital meters do see a usage spike. The analog meters, being mechanical, do have friction and inertia to overcome to turn the dials. That results in a lower power read. Digital doesn't have that issue, so a higher usage rate.
 
2013-01-27 12:28:26 PM

ZodiacMan: There's no constitutional right to electricity. Instead of arresting them though, the power company should just uninstall all meters and cut off electricity to their homes. If they don't want the electric company's services they can install solar panels or have a hamster generating electricity on a wheel or something. It would be interesting to see how long she can go without watching Fox News in her house.


Came to say this.  Have the utility cut the power then switch to a combination of solar, wind, geothermal and propane.  Many Amish who have modern appliances do this in order to meet the "no-outside contact" requirements of their religion.  LP/CNG refrigerators aren't cheap, but they'd take a huge load off your photovoltaic solar grid.


Also, as for the people who think that the transmitters in these meters cause cancer, go look up the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation.  If non-ionizing RF was actually causing cancer, we'd have cancer clusters around transmitter towers for TV and radio (esp AM clear-channel and UHF TV that pump out serious power).
 
2013-01-27 12:28:33 PM

ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.


Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.
 
2013-01-27 12:29:58 PM
"We're going to install this meter on your property."
"Fine, but I'm going to record what you do on my property."
"Nope, that's an arresting."
 
2013-01-27 12:30:30 PM

tgambitg: You read that wrong... it said it can disconnect the meter, not the power. There's a difference there when it comes to smart meters. Disconnecting the meter and reconnecting it is useful for when the connection goes wonky (which happens a lot in a wireless connection). And seeing as electric meters are connected to the system as a tap, not as a break point, phaseolus is correct, the meter itself cannot interrupt the power. There is still a manual cutoff that they would need to send out a technician for. Having just resided the house, and gotten my meter replaced with a smart meter, and as a network engineer by trade, I was very interested in this device going in and was present at the wiring. The technician was very helpful in describing what exactly the process was for how it monitors and what information it delivers. And I never lost power when they were switching the meter, so yeah, there's no break point in these meters. All they do is tap into the flow of electricity coming in (or out, depending on how you view the theory of electricity and electron flow) and measure how fast it's going.


No, I'm pretty sure I read it right. All the manufacturers specifically refer to remote disconnect of electricity. Some of them specify that there's a 200 Am relay inside the meter that they can remotely activate. I'm pretty sure that an electricity meter has to be connected in series with the load. How else are you supposed to measure current?
 
2013-01-27 12:30:40 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: WhippingBoy: BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.

GOOGLE IT!

You're confusing me with something else.


I know. I just couldn't resist.
 
2013-01-27 12:31:29 PM

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.


Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.
 
2013-01-27 12:33:13 PM
Lsherm:

I think that if you're concerned about finding roof leaks you will need to address that before thinking about insulation. You're right to be worried about ruining it with water or repairs, so just address the root cause. You might be able to do a plywood substrate under your existing tin roof, letting you get a solid and insulated layer between the durable tin and your expensive insulation.

I had an attic like that once (c 1875 construction, additions since). We had a traditional plywood roof (central IL), r30 board insulation under that in the rafters and then thin cheap particle board mounted to the rafters to hide it. Welcome to owning an old home!

/currently in a c 1850 3 story. Was split into three apartments, previous owners renuited them into 1 house again.
//They did brand new roof and 40 brand new energy efficient windows.
///Still has 3 furnaces and 4 electric meters
I////i get to do wiring
//i get to do home automation with the wiring
 
2013-01-27 12:34:03 PM

Mrtraveler01: stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.


And they can inherently meter service remotely.
 
2013-01-27 12:35:36 PM

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.


That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.
 
2013-01-27 12:36:34 PM

italie: Mrtraveler01: stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.

And they can inherently meter service remotely.


I can't remember if my router is property of At&t as well since I subscribe to their U-Verse service.

I want to say that I'm renting that one as well.
 
2013-01-27 12:40:15 PM

James F. Campbell: bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?

Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power


Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!
 
2013-01-27 12:42:00 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: vpb: mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.

I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.

Wouldn't it be so much fun to tell them how much more radiation their wifi routers are TX.


Forget that, if you really want to scare the shiat out of them then tell them that part of their smoke detectors are straight up radioactive.
 
2013-01-27 12:43:20 PM

Fade2black: James F. Campbell: bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?

Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power

Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!


That's not the only reason silly.

Think of how much money and time could be saved by not having to have people drive around to random neighborhoods and read these meters?
 
2013-01-27 12:47:00 PM

Mrtraveler01: Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.


Um. No I don't. I have no "cable box" for TV, and I own my own cable modem.

ElBarto79: That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.


And, I have no problem with having a meter at the usage site (my home, to use a more concrete term). What I have a problem with is the fact that the company owns the meter and uses that ownership as justification for their intrusion into where I live.

italie: And they can inherently meter service remotely.


Exactly, which is what makes smart meters great. Now if they'd allow you to own it, they'd be even better.

Oh, and missed this one:

Beretta3000: For the private utilities, your point is dead on.

On the public utility side, we are trying to prevent future rate increases with this technology.


I have a hard time believing that a public utility is any more altruistic than a private company. They're both trying to maximize revenue while minimizing costs.
 
2013-01-27 12:47:28 PM

ElBarto79: stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.

The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.


That's easy enough.

A few of these models can be hacked by putting a strong magnet on the side of it.

That's not to mention you can reprogram them as well...
 
2013-01-27 12:51:50 PM

stiletto_the_wise:

I have a hard time believing that a public utility is any more altruistic than a private company. They're both trying to maximize revenue while minimizing costs.


Depends on how they are setup. We're not allowed to profit. Everything we do is at cost and our budget/any rate increases has to be approved by the city.

So in theory, yes: we are trying to maximize what we can do with the money allotted us by keeping cost down in other areas.
 
2013-01-27 12:57:03 PM

meat0918: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

That's easy enough.

A few of these models can be hacked by putting a strong magnet on the side of it.

That's not to mention you can reprogram them as well...


People have been hacking their power meters ever since they were invented. Whatever the technology used it's still illegal and if they figure out you've done something you'll be in trouble.
 
2013-01-27 12:59:02 PM
Andrew Breitbart is dead.

/just makes me happy to say it, is all
 
2013-01-27 01:00:08 PM

Bad_Seed: tgambitg:

No, I'm pretty sure I read it right. All the manufacturers specifically refer to remote disconnect of electricity. Some of them specify that there's a 200 Am relay inside the meter that they can remotely activate. I'm pretty sure that an electricity meter has to be connected in series with the load. How else are you supposed to measure current?


The meter is not connected in series. It uses magnetic loops around the power cables to measure the power flow through said cables.

On smart meters with a disconnect, the magnetic loops remain, but a section is added on that runs the power cables to a relay within the meter itself. If the relay is triggered, the meter is still powered, but not allowing power to flow into the house.
 
2013-01-27 01:02:36 PM

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.

And, I have no problem with having a meter at the usage site (my home, to use a more concrete term). What I have a problem with is the fact that the company owns the meter and uses that ownership as justification for their intrusion into where I live.


Fair enough, if you want to detach from the grid and produce your own power I'm pretty sure that can be done. But if you want to use the power companies power then you have to play by their rules, which includes sticking a meter on the side of your house and giving them access to it.
 
2013-01-27 01:12:25 PM
BANG...Smart meters reduce the chance of house fires. It will pop its breaker if it detects massive surging in the flow.
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
BANGSmart meters allow load shearing and grid adjustments. By knowing how much power is actually being consumed the network can then adjust the "pressure" they're applying to your grid, more to maintain the voltage or less to keep "evaporation" from occurring in the grid. The most inefficient part of commercial power distribution is the grid itself, it leaks like canvas fire hoses.
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.
BANGSmart meters reduce the number of employees who have to walk the grid. Not only does this reduce payroll but it reduces insurance. Think dogs and holes.
BANGSmart meters reduce YOUR cost, they use less power than regular meters and as regular meters get older they can error in increased reading.

Now, a couple argument points:
1. No trespass occurred, the power company has the right to enter your property to read the meter at any time and any attempt to block them is a class 1 misdemeanor.
2. It is illegal in Illinois to harass, annoy, distract or interrupt power company workers. No arguments to get around this, if you interrupt a power worker and it kills him OR you, it is YOUR fault.
3. The power company has the right to replace equipment as it sees fit for its purposes and use, that meter on your house is NOT YOURS and you have no control over it.
4. By sending in your first payment you signed a contract to agree with all the stipulations.
5. The RF produced by the meter is LESS than a garage door opener, it doesn't transmit continuously - it responds to the transceiver tool.
6. The only way you can win against a Chicago cop is to shoot them dead in the ten foot hole beside the running concrete truck when you trick them to the wrong address. Try anything else and you're farked either in court or when they find you.
 
2013-01-27 01:15:44 PM
Looks like I'm going to be buying EXC stock.  If you can't beat 'em...
 
2013-01-27 01:20:23 PM

Lochsteppe: Richard C Stanford: Of course this is from brietfart so anything from it should be taken with 2 grains of salt.
I mean, the site has a tab labeled "Big Peace". What the hell does that even mean?

The peace-industrial complex is notorious for hugging its enemies to death. They're not to be trifled with. Look at Brietblart: he dared to speak truth to their power, and they hugged him to death with cocaine.


Me Obamese, me play joke, me put Po in Breitbart's coke

/i keed, because i'm not crazy
 
2013-01-27 01:23:17 PM

TelemonianAjax: I think that if you're concerned about finding roof leaks you will need to address that before thinking about insulation. You're right to be worried about ruining it with water or repairs, so just address the root cause. You might be able to do a plywood substrate under your existing tin roof, letting you get a solid and insulated layer between the durable tin and your expensive insulation.


I agree, but Jesus, that is going to take some money.  Doesn't help that we have two layers of tin on each roof and they don't look to fail any time soon.  It's a solid method of roofing - they've lasted the life of the house so far, and I think the "new" layer of tin was added sometime in 1960.
 
2013-01-27 01:28:21 PM
The city says they have an alternate 'normal style' meter, why replace the old 'normal style' meter then? Oh, that's right, because fark you, pay us $50 more per month that's why.
 
2013-01-27 01:32:11 PM

prjindigo: BANG...Smart meters reduce the chance of house fires. It will pop its breaker if it detects massive surging in the flow.
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
BANGSmart meters allow load shearing and grid adjustments. By knowing how much power is actually being consumed the network can then adjust the "pressure" they're applying to your grid, more to maintain the voltage or less to keep "evaporation" from occurring in the grid. The most inefficient part of commercial power distribution is the grid itself, it leaks like canvas fire hoses.
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.
BANGSmart meters reduce the number of employees who have to walk the grid. Not only does this reduce payroll but it reduces insurance. Think dogs and holes.
BANGSmart meters reduce YOUR cost, they use less power than regular meters and as regular meters get older they can error in increased reading.

Now, a couple argument points:
1. No trespass occurred, the power company has the right to enter your property to read the meter at any time and any attempt to block them is a class 1 misdemeanor.
2. It is illegal in Illinois to harass, annoy, distract or interrupt power company workers. No arguments to get around this, if you interrupt a power worker and it kills him OR you, it is YOUR fault.
3. The power company has the right to replace equipment as it sees fit for its purposes and use, that meter on your house is NOT YOURS and you have no control over it.
4. By sending in your first payment you signed a contract to agree with all the stipulations.
5. The RF produced by the meter is LESS than a garage door opener, it doesn't transmit continuously - it responds to the transceiver tool.
6. The only way you can win against a Chicago cop is to shoot them dead in the ten foot hole beside the running concrete truck when ...


Horse... shiat.

Let me repeat that again... HORSE shiat.

Smart meters will cost you more.  By allowing power companies to charge you incrementally over the course of a day, this is a no-win proposition for consumers.  Here, PECO farked up the entire first installation by going with a company whose product was faulty.  They changed and have to change out all of those meters.  Now it's a $650 million snafu and the cost will be passed on to consumers.
People are deluded if they think this is going to save them anything.
 
2013-01-27 01:36:59 PM

Fissile: I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.


Although in a lot of houses, you'd need to come onto the property to do that the right way. And the second time they saw you coming at their house with a pair of pliers, well, that's when the sovereign citizens start attaching the extra-freedom magazines to the liberty guns.

The issue here isn't that the "smart meters" are going to raise prices or degrade their DNA or otherwise affect their precious bodily fluids. They're just mad because it's an uncomfortable reminder that the electric wire is one of several wires and pipes that connect their lives to millions of other people.

There is nothing that harshes on your personal-awesomeness buzz like a reminder that you didn't personally cause the electrons to flow through your incandescent light bulbs* by sheer force of will. That, if you'll pardon the expression, "you didn't build that."

Obviously, most people aren't going to pitch so big a fit that the cops have to be called. But the guys who are installing these meters are probably leaving a burning trail of hurt fee-fees in their wake.

* the other kind are socialist!
 
2013-01-27 01:37:42 PM
prjindigo...
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
...
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.


Uh, isn't the range of the meters quite low? How will they report power outages and lightening strikes unless they are constantly driving up and down outside your house to pick up the transmissions? I don't see how this will really help in any practical way, you will still have to call in and get them out there to read your meter.
 
2013-01-27 01:40:22 PM
In all fairness, some of those things are faulty and have caused fires. Some have been installed inproperly. This is the fault of some of them being cheap pieces of crap and installed by people with little electrical knowledge.
 
2013-01-27 01:42:45 PM

udhq: fredklein: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis.

One simple example: "People in this neighborhood turn on their TVs at 5:30. Maybe a business in that neighborhood might like to buy advertising at 5:31??"

If you're claiming that these things are monitoring individual appliances, that's a pretty extraordinary claim that I believes deserves a citation.


The point isn't "Git out the tinfoil- they're doing this now!!!1!11!", the point is "This technology allows them to do this in the future, therefore we need to be careful."
 
2013-01-27 01:47:44 PM

semiotix: Fissile: I don't see the need to for police. Here is the simple solution:

Power Co.: "We want to replace your electric meter with a new digital 'smart' meter."

Home owner: "NO WAY!"

Power Co: "OK, boys, disconnect this house."

Problem solved, and everyone is happy.

Although in a lot of houses, you'd need to come onto the property to do that the right way. And the second time they saw you coming at their house with a pair of pliers, well, that's when the sovereign citizens start attaching the extra-freedom magazines to the liberty guns.

The issue here isn't that the "smart meters" are going to raise prices or degrade their DNA or otherwise affect their precious bodily fluids. They're just mad because it's an uncomfortable reminder that the electric wire is one of several wires and pipes that connect their lives to millions of other people.

There is nothing that harshes on your personal-awesomeness buzz like a reminder that you didn't personally cause the electrons to flow through your incandescent light bulbs* by sheer force of will. That, if you'll pardon the expression, "you didn't build that."

Obviously, most people aren't going to pitch so big a fit that the cops have to be called. But the guys who are installing these meters are probably leaving a burning trail of hurt fee-fees in their wake.

* the other kind are socialist!


Nah.  It's all about the money, to me.  Could care less that I'm on the same grid as millions of others.

I would like to monitor my own usage real-time instead of just the electric company having that ability.  As mentioned above, as soon as we start saving more, the utilities are going to request even higher increases to cover the lack of revenue they have coming in because of these meters.  fark farkity fark fark fark

FunkOut: In all fairness, some of those things are faulty and have caused fires. Some have been installed inproperly. This is the fault of some of them being cheap pieces of crap and installed by people with little electrical knowledge.


I think they rolled out nearly 200K Sensus meters before they decided to replace 'em all with another maker because of the fire hazard.
 
2013-01-27 01:49:31 PM

machodonkeywrestler: You're just making yourself look more stupid. A smart meter does not control the AC in your home. All it does is enable real time monitoring of your meter. People have explained this to you many times in this thread.


upload.wikimedia.org
Example of an Open smart grid protocol (OSGP) based smart meter in use in Europe that has the ability to reduce load, disconnect-reconnect remotely, and interface to gas and water meters

http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/get-advice/energy/smart-meters-what- ar e-they-and-how-can-i-find-out-more/benefits-and-disadvantages-of-smart -meters#B7
What is technically possible with a smart meter

At present most of us can use as much electricity as we want, provided we can afford to pay for it. Smart meters will make it possible in the future for energy suppliers to offer cheaper tariffs with a 'load limit' or to use this function if you fall into debt.

If you have this type of tariff your energy supplier could limit the amount of electricity that you can use at any one time eg they could supply only a very low level of electricity, for example enough electricity to power lights, a fridge and TV. Your energy supplier could also, in agreement with you, put a cap on the amount of energy you use in a given period eg per day or week. This is called 'load limiting'. As explained above, none of the energy suppliers are currently using load limiting.

...
Appliance control trials

This type of technology is not yet widely used in Great Britain but some energy suppliers are trialling it. For example, one energy supplier has run a customer trial of smart fridges that can respond to signals from the National Grid. This means they shut down for short periods when electricity demand is at its highest, without (in theory) any effect on performance or the freshness of food. This has the benefit of helping to keep the lights on for everyone and can keep costs down as there may be less need to invest in new generation and distribution equipment ie substations, cables, overhead lines etc


So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?
 
2013-01-27 01:58:52 PM
The women video recorded police on their own property and they were charged with felony wiretapping.

These women are not the ones that need arresting.
 
2013-01-27 02:00:28 PM

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.


You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.

Also, dogs have a higher body temperature. A temperature that is comfortable for us is likely a bit cold for them.
 
2013-01-27 02:01:10 PM

KarmicDisaster: prjindigo...
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
...
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.

Uh, isn't the range of the meters quite low? How will they report power outages and lightening strikes unless they are constantly driving up and down outside your house to pick up the transmissions? I don't see how this will really help in any practical way, you will still have to call in and get them out there to read your meter.


Lots of ways to transmit depending on the meter.

One style can transmit on the old pager frequencies for a few miles to a radio tower that then transmit to the utility. Another have the meters "hop-scotch" info to one another until they get to a main collector tower that transmits to the utility. Another technique involves the meters having cell cards and transmit via cell comm paths back to the utility.

There is also broadband over power line, where the meter transmits back on the electric lines. This works for rural but is horrible for urban with th amount of bypasses you have to install.
 
2013-01-27 02:02:26 PM
Somehow lost in all of this is the simple fact that not all kilowatt-hours are created equal, nor do they cost the same to produce.

At 3PM on a sweltering weekday afternoon, most utilities have every bit of generating capacity they own running at full capacity. They may even be buying power from other utilities to make up the shortfall in their own generating capacity.

That means that the power plants with the cheapest marginal costs per KWH are all running, typically nuclear, hydro, and perhaps coal. It also means that all the power plants with thie highest marginal costs per KWH are also running flat out, typically natural gas or oil.

So when you click on your AC at 3:01, you are forcing the utility to turn on, or buy, some of the most expensive electricity it has access to.

At 3AM on a mild evening, utilities may only be running their cheapest marginal cost suppliers, so an extra KWH costs them far less to deliver to your house.

Thus, utilities try whatever they can to minimize peak loads. This includes variable prices, smart thermostats, giving away CFL's, and anything else they can come up with.

And remember that even though we are talking about marginal costs (the cost to make the very next KWH), all of these options are capital intensive. If they have to build a new gas-fired plant to serve peak loads, they pay full price for it, even though it only runs for an hour or two in the afternoon.

So while a demand meter might raise your electricity costs, in fact they also allocate costs more fairly. If you simply must do laundry, run the dishwasher and blast your AC during the peak loads, you will pay for the privilege. If you can set the timer on your dishwasher to run at 2AM, you get a break. Not sure what could be more fair..
 
2013-01-27 02:04:04 PM

BunkyBrewman: Nah.  It's all about the money, to me.  Could care less that I'm on the same grid as millions of others.

I would like to monitor my own usage real-time instead of just the electric company having that ability.  As mentioned above, as soon as we start saving more, the utilities are going to request even higher increases to cover the lack of revenue they have coming in because of these meters.  fark farkity fark fark fark


Fair enough. I'd like a wicked-smaht meter that gave me neat batches of data too, although I understand why the electric company isn't going to buy me one out of the goodness of its heart. I guess if I felt strongly enough about that, I'd lobby my state or local Public Utilities Commission to force the electric companies to make them available.

That's also the solution to jacked-up "smart rates," by the way. If, for whatever reason, you lack faith in your PUC (or whatever it's called in your area) to adequately look after your interests in that respect, then you're screwed until that changes no matter what kind of meter gets bolted onto your house. Functionally unregulated monopolies on critical services--and yeah, there are more than a few of them out there--don't really need tricksy electronic gadgets to convince puppet regulators to pass their rate increases.
 
2013-01-27 02:04:57 PM

fredklein: So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?


Maybe, but only for people that opt into it. Most power companies would have low benefit in having everybody use less electricty. Now, during times when usage may result in larger outages I could see where homes with that device may help the power company, but I honestly believe they want inefficent homes and power hogs on the grid. It just means more cash for said company. Personally, I might opt into that program if it would reduce my monthly bill. Some won't but it would most certainly be an "option" and not mandatory.
 
2013-01-27 02:08:55 PM
Here is some logic for you uneducated yet opinionated idiots who just aren't getting it.

If I'm buying something from you on a regular basis and you are the only one I can buy
it from, and you insist on putting something inbetween us that gives you more direct
control over whatever it is I'm buying, then the benefit is all yours, not mine.
Especially when the thing between us will allow an outside directive,
like from the government, to bypass even your control and directly affect me -
not to mention all the tweaks it will allow you to do to maximize profit without me
having anything to say or do about it.
The individual consumer comes last in the 'how does this benefit anyone'
consideration. And turning over the ability to gather more information about me and
turning over more control on how the product is rationed is much more in your benefit
(and others) rather than mine. So concern is more than warranted.
 
2013-01-27 02:11:39 PM

Lsherm: This About That: A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.

Yeah, I have one in the attic above the bedrooms.  Once again, the problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so it was built in stages (whenever they needed more room, they just built another room) - so I have 4 attics.

I'm torn about installing vents in the bedroom ceilings to pass air up to the attic to let the fan work better.  It would let the bedrooms cool off faster from the attic fan, but it would be a nightmare in the winter unless I closed them off tight.

This About That: Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

That's the thing - the attic above the bedrooms IS insulated.  It has blown insulation between the bedroom ceilings and the attic floor (it's a walk up attic) and rolled thin foil insulation on the floor.  The only other thing I can insulate is the clapboard roof the tin is nailed to, presumably with hard foam insulation, but I'm worried about doing that because it would make water leaks harder to find.  Also, since either end of the attic has a full size 4.5 foot window on it, I'm not sure if it would do any good.  Insulating the attic floor seemed like the best option at some point, and I'm inclined to agree with whoever made that decision.

Here's a picture of the bedroom attic with an inspector and our real estate agent during a walkthrough.  You can see the blown insulation, the back of the tin from the roof, the floorboards, and you can barely make out a window behind the inspector.  The only thing we've added since this picture was taken was foil insulation on top of the floorboards, but it didn't seem to help much.


I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so. ...


that doesn't look like enough insulation up there. Current code dictates R38 or more (depending what state you are living in). You probably have somewhere around R19 which is the new wall minimum. It would equate to about 16" inches of blown in insulation (http://www.lowes.com/pd_213143-1722-B781_4294858108__?productId=30244 75&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_avg_rat ing%7C1&facetInfo=). I would also install an insulated bathroom exhaust fan flex pipe and maybe some 6 mil plastic sheeting over the window in the attic. That foil shiat does almost nothing compared to actual insulation.

in order to get enough insulation up there you will have to pull that floor up, blow the insulation in and then re install taller floor structure (to compensate for the additional insulation) and then the floor. Also if you have a ridge vent and soffit vents you will have to add one of those rafter vents (http://www.lowes.com/pd_135588-75227-UPV14480_4294858107__?productId= 3012018&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1) at the start of the eave so that your blown in insulation doesn't close the necessary attic ventilation.

I will be doing a similar thing on a 50s rancher that I bought recently.

sorry about those damn Lowe's long ass links....
 
2013-01-27 02:11:52 PM
The federal government has enormous control over the States with the DOE's Super Grid.
The federal government spent billion in bribe money to States to accept Smart Grids and
Smart Meters in opposition of public health and interest. Huge technology corporations
stand to benefit by $170 billion a year. Utilities will make a killing.


During peak demand the power company can turn off your appliances.

So when does peak demand occur? It occurs when the weather is the hottest or the coldest.
So the power company can turn off your furnace or air conditioner during the worst
imaginable weather. But why do they do this? One reason is because of an outdated
overloaded power grid the other is the power company often buys power and during peak
demand they pay the most. So they reduce peak demand and pocket an enormous profit.
 
2013-01-27 02:12:17 PM

Beretta3000: KarmicDisaster: prjindigo...
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
...
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.

Uh, isn't the range of the meters quite low? How will they report power outages and lightening strikes unless they are constantly driving up and down outside your house to pick up the transmissions? I don't see how this will really help in any practical way, you will still have to call in and get them out there to read your meter.

Lots of ways to transmit depending on the meter.

One style can transmit on the old pager frequencies for a few miles to a radio tower that then transmit to the utility. Another have the meters "hop-scotch" info to one another until they get to a main collector tower that transmits to the utility. Another technique involves the meters having cell cards and transmit via cell comm paths back to the utility.

There is also broadband over power line, where the meter transmits back on the electric lines. This works for rural but is horrible for urban with th amount of bypasses you have to install.


If the power is out due to a line down, how would broadband over power lines work then? Are you saying that the meters actually do network with each other and repeat packets, in which case why do they have to drive around to read the meters? The idea that these network with each other is something that I have not heard before, but it certainly would reduce the amount of driving around to read them. Also, if you are saying that these are going to work without power to report an outage, is there a battery backup then? How often will that have battery have to be serviced which is yet another thing that they will have to do then. Or will they just wait until your meter has not reported in on the network for a couple days then assume that the power is out; not fast enough for most people. My house is over a quarter mile from the neighbors, how would RF networking work for me? I'm just questioning how useful the "power is out" reporting would actually be. Sounds like this might just add another step, you call in, but that just gets a truck dispatched to read your meter and confirm the outage.
 
2013-01-27 02:13:39 PM
Here is something else you idiots probably don't farking know.

During periods of power usage the power company pays a different wholesale rate for
the power it buys. During the times of peak usage, the rate is highest. With the smart
grid technology, the power company can dynamically change the cost of your electricity
through out the day and bill you a higher rate during the coldest and warmest days. So
not only will you pay more for stabilizing the temperature of your home during the worst
hot and cold weather, you'll pay a substantially higher rate for that power. It will be
a double whammy that will put a smile on the faces of that power company executives.

So start taking it seriously or you farks deserve what you get.
 
2013-01-27 02:23:57 PM

KarmicDisaster:

If the power is out due to a line down, how would broadband over power lines work then? Are you saying that the meters actually do network with each other and repeat packets, in which case why do they have to drive around to read the meters? The idea that these network with each other is something that I have not heard before, but it certainly would reduce the amount of driving around to read them. Also, if you are saying that these are going to work without power to report an outage, is there a battery backup then? How often will that have battery have to be serviced which is yet another thing that they will have to do then. Or will they just wait until your meter has not reported in on the network for a couple days then assume that the power is out; not fa ...


There are multiple types of communication paths available. The broadband over power line option is definitely affected if a line is cut.

The "hopscotch" method (it's official name is mesh network) does involve the meters being networked and transmitting packets through each other.

In all the smart meter applications, the meters are indeed networked with the utility in some way. If the meter stops transmitting info back, it is flagged as a possible outage, communication problem, or tampering. If the power does indeed go out, the meter has a capacitor in it that initiates a last gasp back to the utility saying "I'm dead".

We only need to hear back from 20% of the meters in the area to pinpoint the most likely source of the problem. Same percentage applies to phone calls. The only issue on calls is I need to wait 15-20 minutes for these calls to come in. The meter will alert the utility in under 2 minutes and we can start rolling crews.

It will also tell us when the power is restored. While that may not seem like a big deal, it helps tell us if there is another outage still in the area that we didn't get back on but we assumed was restored. It keeps our truck from leaving the area and having to return to fix what was missed.
 
2013-01-27 02:24:43 PM

Greek: You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.


To be fair, this is sort of the ideal scenario here--getting individual homes the plug-and-play infrastructure that would allow utilities to cut the same deals with individual residences as they do with factories. I think I've heard of one or two test cases of this--where the utility can remotely control not only the electricity, but the setting on the A/C. I'm sure, in those cases, there's some sort of override.

For 95% of the country's electricity grid, this would be useless. But remember, "rolling blackouts" happen in some places, and voluntarily letting the electric company raise the temperature of your house to 77 degrees, in exchange for a better rate, is much better for both parties than your house going dark at noon in a heat wave.

I live in a place where I use a farkload of electricity to cool my house, and virtually nothing for any other purpose. Like, $20 in January and $200 in July. Ditto all my neighbors, I suspect, or at least the ones with gas heat. As things stand, we don't need the electric company to fuss with our thermostats because even in the summer the region has plenty of electricity-generating capacity for its population.

But if you're looking at this from the perspective a utility OUGHT to be looking at it from--how can I give the most people the best service using the least amount of power at the lowest possible rates--then somehow tying them into at least some of the A/C or HVAC systems that suck up most of their juice makes sense. Yes, by all means, start by cutting deals with the aluminum smelting plant yonder. But after you've plucked the low-hanging fruit...

I think part of the problem with these incremental improvements to our RIDICULOUSLY antiquated grid is that people using the 50-year-old equipment have no frame of reference, so everything looks scary. Oh well.
 
2013-01-27 02:27:52 PM

draa: fredklein: So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?

Maybe, but only for people that opt into it.



"Opt in", like you can "opt in" for smart meters?
 
2013-01-27 02:39:12 PM

Proximuscentauri: Here is something else you idiots probably don't farking know.


You describe a number of problems with utilities that have happened, can happen, or (in some cases) haven't happened yet but could happen if certain technologies are introduced and then are used in certain ways.

Okay. In other words, electric companies are mostly somewhere between maliciously bad (the "fark grandma millie!" mindset) and imperfect. So, what's a Farker to do?

Option 1: convert all private utilities to public. I'd actually be fine with this, but I'm guessing you'd see it as trading an unholy alliance for an equally unholy single thing.

Option 2: introduce competition. Yeah, that's a hell of a lot trickier to do for practical reasons when you're talking about electricity.

Option 3: Make utility regulators actually regulate.

You seem to hate the gummint and the evil power execs equally, so I'm not sure where you think your allies are in this fight. But if you're right about that, then Option 4 ("resist tiny little changes to the status quo in which I'm already being jerked around by forces vastly larger than me") isn't really going to work out any better for you.

Proximuscentauri: So start taking it seriously or you farks deserve what you get.


Well, I guess we can't say we weren't warned. Thanks, guy.
 
2013-01-27 02:39:45 PM
The city and power company decide to require homes to have these smart meters but you have to pay to opt out? What's next?

How about this: the city and your insurance company collude to require all cars to have a smart meter installed. Any time you drive above the speed limit, a ticket is automatically issued and your insurance rate increases. Or you can pay a monthly fee to opt out.

Sounds like a brilliant revenue generator me.
 
2013-01-27 02:39:56 PM

fredklein: draa: fredklein: So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?

Maybe, but only for people that opt into it.


"Opt in", like you can "opt in" for smart meters?


No, it was noted up thread that the smart thermostats are "option" only at this point. Maybe one day it will be mandatory but I highly doubt it since it would cut into profits too much. Or if they were, they would be only in high usage areas. There's no reason for PUC in rural areas to do it since there's no demand problem for most of those companies. Why would they give away profits if they don't have to? FPL sure wouldn't anyway.
 
2013-01-27 02:41:40 PM

fredklein: This type of technology is not yet widely used in Great Britain but some energy suppliers are trialling it. For example, one energy supplier has run a customer trial of smart fridges that can respond to signals from the National Grid. This means they shut down for short periods when electricity demand is at its highest, without (in theory) any effect on performance or the freshness of food. This has the benefit of helping to keep the lights on for everyone and can keep costs down as there may be less need to invest in new generation and distribution equipment ie substations, cables, overhead lines etc


Dear God! That sounds awful!
 
2013-01-27 02:49:54 PM

radiovox: The city and power company decide to require homes to have these smart meters but you have to pay to opt out? What's next?

How about this: the city and your insurance company collude to require all cars to have a smart meter installed. Any time you drive above the speed limit, a ticket is automatically issued and your insurance rate increases. Or you can pay a monthly fee to opt out.

Sounds like a brilliant revenue generator me.


How about this: the government and your health insurance company..........

Oh boy, I can't even go there.
 
2013-01-27 03:06:26 PM
I've had smart meters on my house for over 10 years now. It gives me daily usage data like this:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

Breaks things down like this:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

Which helps me to do this:
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
People getting their panties in a bunch about smart meters are straight up retarded.
 
2013-01-27 03:14:24 PM

Proximuscentauri: The federal government has enormous control over the States with the DOE's Super Grid.
The federal government spent billion in bribe money to States to accept Smart Grids and
Smart Meters in opposition of public health and interest. Huge technology corporations
stand to benefit by $170 billion a year. Utilities will make a killing.


During peak demand the power company can turn off your appliances.

So when does peak demand occur? It occurs when the weather is the hottest or the coldest.
So the power company can turn off your furnace or air conditioner during the worst
imaginable weather. But why do they do this? One reason is because of an outdated
overloaded power grid the other is the power company often buys power and during peak
demand they pay the most. So they reduce peak demand and pocket an enormous profit.



Because a few hours worth of load limiting is worse than a few days worth of outage while they repair the grid?
 
2013-01-27 03:16:58 PM

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.


I don't know about the cable company, but the phone company has a box connected to your house that you are not even allowed to open.
 
2013-01-27 03:36:25 PM

usernameguy:

I don't know about the cable company, but the phone company has a box connected to your house that you are not even allowed to open.


Not true. There are two sides to the NID. One is the telco and your not supposed to open it and the other side is the customer side and you can open it all you want.
 
2013-01-27 03:42:26 PM

MrSteve007: I've had smart meters on my house for over 10 years now. It gives me daily usage data like this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 539x321]

Breaks things down like this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x214]

Which helps me to do this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 850x475]
People getting their panties in a bunch about smart meters are straight up retarded.


Curious... What was your total outlay for the ductless heat-pump, insulation, heat-pump water heater and solar panels?

How long will it take to recover the amount you've spent on those?  Have you created a schedule and graph for that?
 
2013-01-27 03:44:37 PM

WhippingBoy: There was an amusing story in the local paper a few months ago. Seems that one day a woman saw a Hydro employee enter her yard, presumably to install a smart meter. She claims that the next day she started experiencing headaches, nausea, and all the classic "symtoms" associated with EMF "sensitivity". (Obviously, there was something dangerous about the smart meter, but only a handful of people are "special" enough to feel its effects).

This was brought to the attention to the head of the local Hydro office. He confirmed that while the woman's house was indeed scheduled to receive a smart meter, the installation hadn't yet occurred, and the person she saw was likely just the regular meter reader.


I love people who think they understand new technology and why it's bad for you.

My ex's family were all farking morons. Her father bought a new 3D TV for the living room. Cut to the next holiday and all of their family in the area were over for a gathering. The ex's aunt was claiming that looking at 3D TVs without glasses on harms your eyes. I tried to explain to her why this wasn't true but she wouldn't have any of it. After all, she heard it from Dr Oz (supposedly) so what I had to say on the matter was irrelevant.

One of the many reasons I'm glad that I have nothing to do with that farking moronic, hateful, racist family anymore.

/The ex's grandma, who grew up in Germany, still fondly remembers the time she got to see Hitler in person.
//The ex's mother was opposed to me because I wasn't Aryan. Mother to ex, after it looked like we would be together for good, "I feel bad for you that you'll never have blond haired, blue eyed children."
 
2013-01-27 03:48:15 PM
You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.

I didn't say that. I said I have a programmable thermostat. And I never said anybody else had control of it.
 
2013-01-27 03:55:07 PM
I've heard that smart meters can send out a frequency at the same wavelength your body uses to cause your heart to beat. Late on a few payments? Well, let's just stop their hearts for a few minutes as a warning.

No thank you. No thank you indeed.
 
2013-01-27 04:06:18 PM

MrSteve007: I've had smart meters on my house for over 10 years now. It gives me daily usage data like this:

Breaks things down like this:

Which helps me to do this:


I'm not going to lie, that's slightly arousing.

What's your setup? What magic gadgets that are almost certainly incompatible with everything I own and/or my local utility let you do that?
 
2013-01-27 04:06:52 PM

rumpelstiltskin: This sounds like a brave thing to do in Naperville. Regardless of her motives, the gossip around the neighborhood will be that Jenny can't afford the 25 bucks a month to opt out.


The company my wife used to work for is based in Chicago and all the upper management lived in Naperville. Your comment is spot on.
 
2013-01-27 04:19:06 PM

BunkyBrewman: Curious... What was your total outlay for the ductless heat-pump, insulation, heat-pump water heater and solar panels?

How long will it take to recover the amount you've spent on those?  Have you created a schedule and graph for that?


Warning, math ahead (numbers are all inclusive and tax free):

Heat pump: $7,500
- fed rebate: -$2,250
- utility rebate: -$2,500

Out of pocket Cost: $2,750
Annual savings: $500
ROI: 5.5 years
--------------------
Insulation: $1,200
-fed rebate: -$360
-utility rebate: -$500

Out of pocket cost: $340
Annual savings: $60
ROI: 5.5 years
-------------------
HP water heater: $1,200
- fed rebate: -360
- utility rebate: $600

Out of pocket cost: $340
Annual savings $250
ROI: 1.5 years
-------------------
Solar panels: $23,000
- fed rebate: -$6,900
- annual state tariff (thru 2020): -$2,200
- annual utility savings: -$420

1st year cost: $13,480
ROI: 5.2 years
 
2013-01-27 04:32:34 PM

italie: If they are going "full network"


Full network!? You never go full network!
 
2013-01-27 04:48:22 PM
Shouldn't be arrested for protecting their own property. Leave the meter off and leave them without power.

If they want power, they agree to how they get it or they make their own.

But no, if you don't want a utility person on your property installing stuff, you should be able to decline it. It is after all on your private property.
 
2013-01-27 05:04:13 PM

ReverendJynxed: Shouldn't be arrested for protecting their own property. Leave the meter off and leave them without power.

If they want power, they agree to how they get it or they make their own.

But no, if you don't want a utility person on your property installing stuff, you should be able to decline it. It is after all on your private property.


Again, for the reading and life impaired, it's not a private property issue. As long as you are purchasing their services, they have right of way. It's their equipment, so technically you can be charged with a bevy of crimes for obstructing access to it.
 
2013-01-27 05:09:17 PM

italie: Again, for the reading and life impaired, it's not a private property issue. As long as you are purchasing their services, they have right of way. It's their equipment, so technically you can be charged with a bevy of crimes for obstructing access to it.


And some of us are simply saying, "These laws are bullshiat". It's the law but that doesn't make it right. It's exactly as if someone who rents a cable modem from Comcast could get charged with crimes for not giving the cable guy a key to their home and permission to stop by any time.
 
2013-01-27 05:29:32 PM

stiletto_the_wise: italie: Again, for the reading and life impaired, it's not a private property issue. As long as you are purchasing their services, they have right of way. It's their equipment, so technically you can be charged with a bevy of crimes for obstructing access to it.

And some of us are simply saying, "These laws are bullshiat". It's the law but that doesn't make it right. It's exactly as if someone who rents a cable modem from Comcast could get charged with crimes for not giving the cable guy a key to their home and permission to stop by any time.


Uhh, actually champ, Comcast does have right-of-way to come onto your property to inspect their outside box at any time, just the same as the electric company, gas utility or telephone utility. Only during special cases are they required to enter the private residence, and when they do, they have to ask for permission. Considering the smart meters are mounted outside, they have every right to inspect, service or replace their equipment on the upstream side of your home. If you don't agree to that, they also have every right to cut off your service, remove their equipment, and charge you for the time and labor to do it.
 
2013-01-27 05:45:50 PM

HoneyDog: You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.

I didn't say that. I said I have a programmable thermostat. And I never said anybody else had control of it.


So... why are you biatching about it then? You chose to put in the programmable thermostat and program it that way.
 
2013-01-27 05:56:03 PM
So... why are you biatching about it then? You chose to put in the programmable thermostat and program it that way.

LOL, I wasn't complaining about it, I was explaining it.
 
2013-01-27 06:00:59 PM
Wireless digital power meters, Cons:

-Measure more accurately, so your bill might go up.
-Can be polled manually and repeatedly, so authorities can divine your daily routine by your power usage.
-Depend on the cellular telephone network, so at some future point, the utilities companies are going to help prop up a legacy cellular infrastructure that ought to be upgraded.
-Most meter readers will be let go, so there will be fewer incidental wellness checks, animal abuse reports, wires observed in contact with obstruction, etc.
-Likely more vulnerable to power surges, EMP, etc.

Pros:

-Measure more accurately, so your bill might go down.
-May have an LED or data port providing homeowners an opportunity to attach their own monitoring gear.
-Uh, that's about it.

An interesting thing I'm remembering from about 15-20 years ago is that the utility companies were thinking of networking the meters to their central office via fiber optic cables. The cost of maintaining human meter readers is apparently pretty darn high. Even at the prices of optical gear at that time, installation of fiber would have paid for itself in under a decade. Oh, and one little bonus is that they could have added a staggeringly profitable additional revenue stream by providing high-speed Internet service to all their customers. It was vetoed because utility companies don't have anyone with the balls to commit their company to a debt that would outlast their own era as leader, and they didn't think the Internet was really going to be all that popular, and they wouldn't know how to run an Internet company anyway. That's a big part of why we don't have many Internet Over Powerline companies in the world.
 
2013-01-27 06:20:38 PM

Austinoftx: Wireless digital power meters, Cons:

-Measure more accurately, so your bill might go up.
-Can be polled manually and repeatedly, so authorities can divine your daily routine by your power usage.
-Depend on the cellular telephone network, so at some future point, the utilities companies are going to help prop up a legacy cellular infrastructure that ought to be upgraded.
-Most meter readers will be let go, so there will be fewer incidental wellness checks, animal abuse reports, wires observed in contact with obstruction, etc.
-Likely more vulnerable to power surges, EMP, etc.

Pros:

-Measure more accurately, so your bill might go down.
-May have an LED or data port providing homeowners an opportunity to attach their own monitoring gear.
-Uh, that's about it.

An interesting thing I'm remembering from about 15-20 years ago is that the utility companies were thinking of networking the meters to their central office via fiber optic cables. The cost of maintaining human meter readers is apparently pretty darn high. Even at the prices of optical gear at that time, installation of fiber would have paid for itself in under a decade. Oh, and one little bonus is that they could have added a staggeringly profitable additional revenue stream by providing high-speed Internet service to all their customers. It was vetoed because utility companies don't have anyone with the balls to commit their company to a debt that would outlast their own era as leader, and they didn't think the Internet was really going to be all that popular, and they wouldn't know how to run an Internet company anyway. That's a big part of why we don't have many Internet Over Powerline companies in the world.


A few corrections/omissions:

My company's remote meters do not run over any cellular network.  The actual reading device at the substation is connected directly to the line with no other means of communication.  It reports back to our office (along with the rest of the substation telemetry) by fiber optic.

Customers have the ability to read their real-time usage with no extra connection to the meter.

We have been using them for about a decade, and there is no evidence that they are any more susceptible to surges than the old analogue meters.

Customer complaints regarding incorrect bills due to misreads and no reads have been virtually eliminated.   No more estimated bills.  Ever.

Many problems on the line can be diagnosed and pinpointed from the office.  What used to take hours of patrolling can now take the few minutes it takes to ping all of the meters on an entire circuit at once.

Trust me, nobody gives a hoot about divining your daily routine by tracking your usage.

So the only somewhat legitimate negative is that there may be some things our meter readers used to see that they don't see any more.
 
2013-01-27 06:25:46 PM

Tor_Eckman: Trust me, nobody gives a hoot about divining your daily routine by tracking your usage.


couple this with the handy maps of gun owners that have been published recently = free guns for criminals at little risk.
 
2013-01-27 06:37:27 PM

Tor_Eckman: So the only somewhat legitimate negative is that there may be some things our meter readers used to see that they don't see any more.



Lonely housewives?
 
2013-01-27 06:45:47 PM

phaseolus: Tor_Eckman: So the only somewhat legitimate negative is that there may be some things our meter readers used to see that they don't see any more.


Lonely housewives?


I've heard stories....

But another happy consequence is that we no longer have meter readers getting bitten/mauled by animals or tripping over the crap in people's yards or falling in holes in people's yards, or getting threatened/harassed/assaulted by dingbats like in the article.

And by the way, most of the former meter readers were offered other positions in the company.
 
2013-01-27 06:46:02 PM

Tor_Eckman: A few corrections/omissions:

My company's remote meters do not run over any cellular network. The actual reading device at the substation is connected directly to the line with no other means of communication. It reports back to our office (along with the rest of the substation telemetry) by fiber optic.

Customers have the ability to read their real-time usage with no extra connection to the meter.

We have been using them for about a decade, and there is no evidence that they are any more susceptible to surges than the old analogue meters.

Customer complaints regarding incorrect bills due to misreads and no reads have been virtually eliminated. No more estimated bills. Ever.

Many problems on the line can be diagnosed and pinpointed from the office. What used to take hours of patrolling can now take the few minutes it takes to ping all of the meters on an entire circuit at once.

Trust me, nobody gives a hoot about divining your daily routine by tracking your usage.

So the only somewhat legitimate negative is that there may be some things our meter readers used to see that they don't see any more.


-I know not all of them use the cellular telephone network. For those which do, it is a con.
-Ambiguous mention of fiber optic networking on your part; fiber is quite common in any data center.
-Good to know about surge susceptibility.
-Customer complaints are likely down because there is a strong sense of inevitability to the introduction of power meters. I hear they're even forcing their way onto private property with the police present, and arresting property "owners" who object.
-I do not trust you. Nor do I trust the kind of chaps who routinely demand these kinds of records. This IS the world we live in.

-Aaaand, I see what you did there. Suggesting that wireless utility meters somehow improve privacy. Personally, I would rather tolerate a meter reader walking up to my meter every 1-2-3 or 4 months than have a gadget attached to my wall that can plot out my daily and weekly routine down to the minute. Even if I trusted my shark-grinned leaders, there is the matter of criminals hacking systems that are secured by decree rather than technology.
 
2013-01-27 07:06:11 PM
What's the over under Jenny has a smart phone, a wireless router, and a couple things emitting bluetooth signals, yet only the smart meter is the evil headache wave machine?

I'm kind of leery of them in that I heard they're easy to hack and mostly rely on security through obscurity. Of course if they are that easy to hack I could do reduce my electric bill with a little tinkering I suppose.

/save tens of dollars per month and risk jail time, hmmmm so many reasons not to do that
 
2013-01-27 07:13:52 PM

Austinoftx: -I know not all of them use the cellular telephone network. For those which do, it is a con.
-Ambiguous mention of fiber optic networking on your part; fiber is quite common in any data center.
-Good to know about surge susceptibility.
-Customer complaints are likely down because there is a strong sense of inevitability to the introduction of power meters. I hear they're even forcing their way onto private property with the police present, and arresting property "owners" who object.
-I do not trust you. Nor do I trust the kind of chaps who routinely demand these kinds of records. This IS the world we live in.

-Aaaand, I see what you did there. Suggesting that wireless utility meters somehow improve privacy. Personally, I would rather tolerate a meter reader walking up to my meter every 1-2-3 or 4 months than have a gadget attached to my wall that can plot out my daily and weekly routine down to the minute. Even if I trusted my shark-grinned leaders, there is the matter of criminals hacking systems that are secured by decree rather than technology.


You're a nut.
 
2013-01-27 07:33:14 PM
Spent two years working on the government Smart Grid project as a Project Manager.
Managed a large part of the $200M Project.
Prepared reports for the US Congress.

Didn't see a single posting here that had the whole truth.

It was designed with a good idea and will benefit most people.
What the government "Can" do with it and has enabled is very very scary.
Not theoretically scary. Planned scary.
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-01-27 07:42:25 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Vegetative reproduction: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mrtraveler01: And do they know that the electric company already keeps track of how much electricity they use?

Or am I missing the point here.

Rf devices are usually pretty easy to break into. They're not concerned with what info the electric company has on them, they're worried that these devices essentially open up their data for the world to see. And quite honestly, the fees they must pay to maintain the same type of data collection they always had are absurdly high.

It is a lot easier to walk up to a new or old fashioned meter and see how fast it is spinning than to scan for an RF signal.

Can you do that from your car? Can you do it on several houses at once? Can you manually check meters as fast as a signal can travel?

Walking into the yard of dozens of people will attract attention, driving slowly down the street will not.


It seems signal transmission is intermittent and uses a mesh network. Stationary detection rather than drive by would be best to pull data, but you would get data from lots of meters at once. The data may be encrypted and with data from lots of meters at once, you would still have to match data pulled to each meter for useful information about any particular house.
 
2013-01-27 07:45:26 PM

Tor_Eckman: Austinoftx: -I know not all of them use the cellular telephone network. For those which do, it is a con.
-Ambiguous mention of fiber optic networking on your part; fiber is quite common in any data center.
-Good to know about surge susceptibility.
-Customer complaints are likely down because there is a strong sense of inevitability to the introduction of power meters. I hear they're even forcing their way onto private property with the police present, and arresting property "owners" who object.
-I do not trust you. Nor do I trust the kind of chaps who routinely demand these kinds of records. This IS the world we live in.

-Aaaand, I see what you did there. Suggesting that wireless utility meters somehow improve privacy. Personally, I would rather tolerate a meter reader walking up to my meter every 1-2-3 or 4 months than have a gadget attached to my wall that can plot out my daily and weekly routine down to the minute. Even if I trusted my shark-grinned leaders, there is the matter of criminals hacking systems that are secured by decree rather than technology.

You're a nut.


And so are the people who think crazy things like their location can be tracked via their cellphones, or gosh, that anyone would be interested in their call log, let alone recordings of their calls. And heavens, the hullabaloo over wireless toll-tags; the authorities promised they'd never use those to catch speeders! License-plate reading cameras are NOT a fishing expedition for insurance dogers! Black boxes in every car are ONLY for mechanical diagnostics! And what government agency even has the time to use Google to locate unlicensed swimming pools and outbuildings? Pish Posh, Sir! Surely the government gives NOT A HOOT! After all, history shows that governments who build systems capable of surveilling the citizenry NEVER exploit the resulting data for disclaimed purposes later! I'm sure the NSA is storing all of our internet activity so they can offer us a an online backup system! Every file transferred, every page viewed, every call recorded is so we can relive the good ole days!

...Actually, you'd have to be farking farking farking stupid to not notice a trend by now.
 
2013-01-27 07:53:05 PM

MrSteve007: Breaks things down like this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x214]


Is that "break down" one of those useless statistical estimates that tells you nothing about your individual use, or do you have measurement devices on each outlet and switch?

If so, can you link what you use? Last time I looked into a setup like that I could only find ones designed for data centers (rack mount PDU form factor), so rewiring to use them would have cost a fortune.

I just searched again, and still can't find someone that just sells monitoring outlets and switches for residential use. There's like 20 companies that are *almost* there, as long as you only want outlets, not switches. And you don't care to monitor anything other than a 120v outlet, so you're ignoring your actual big energy uses. And you want to send your data to their 'cloud' service. Or, you know, write your own software. This doesn't seem like it should be that hard.
 
2013-01-27 08:12:00 PM

Jade E.: MrSteve007: Breaks things down like this:
[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 320x214]

Is that "break down" one of those useless statistical estimates that tells you nothing about your individual use, or do you have measurement devices on each outlet and switch?

If so, can you link what you use? Last time I looked into a setup like that I could only find ones designed for data centers (rack mount PDU form factor), so rewiring to use them would have cost a fortune.

I just searched again, and still can't find someone that just sells monitoring outlets and switches for residential use. There's like 20 companies that are *almost* there, as long as you only want outlets, not switches. And you don't care to monitor anything other than a 120v outlet, so you're ignoring your actual big energy uses. And you want to send your data to their 'cloud' service. Or, you know, write your own software. This doesn't seem like it should be that hard.


Well, as you see, the breakdown shows that lighting is the smallest load I have in my house. Considering in most homes, it's about 25%, the utility's "smart meter" is quite good at realizing what type of loads cycle on and off over the day. Since my lighting is all LED or CFL, it makes sense that my loads are about 2% of total consumption.

When the meter registers a sudden ~6.5kw load, it knows that statistically that's an electric hotwater heater. When it registers a 4.7kw load, that's an electric dyer. Refrigerators are 24/7 0.15kw cycling loads, etc.

I've done outlet monitoring of all of my appliances, and also have installed a TED 5000 meter to monitor the live consumption and output of my PV array and home loads. The utility's smart meter nails my consumption almost to a "T"
 
2013-01-27 08:35:11 PM

MrSteve007:
When the meter registers a sudden ~6.5kw load, it knows that statistically that's an electric hotwater heater. When it registers a 4.7kw load, that's an electric dyer. Refrigerators are 24/7 0.15kw cycling loads, etc.

I've done outlet monitoring of all of my appliances, and also have installed a TED 5000 meter to monitor the live consumption and output of my PV array and home loads. The utility's smart meter nails my consumption almost to a "T"


Statistical analysis of the bumps in your power load at particular times could tell someone if you took an extra-long shower. It could tell if you had no toast, regular toast, dark toast or extra toast depending on how many times you started the toaster, and whether you stayed later than usual for breakfast. Suppose it was known that you almost always have toast on Saturday and Sunday mornings because you like toast when you're hung over from drinking at the clubs the night before. Say there was a riot or protest one Friday night, and government face-recognition cameras identified you as being within the "Suspended Free-Speech Zone". Say your alibi was that you were at a bar watching the riots on TV, but they can point out that you didn't have toast the next morning, so you didn't seem to have been drinking that night. They would use this to erode your credibility in court, or as enough circumstantial evidence to subpoena video from within the pub you said you were at, the street outside the pub, your street, or even the "for insurance only" video cameras (hypothetically) embedded in all of your smoke detectors just to confirm that toast business in living color.

But then, I'm told I'm a nut and that the government has sufficient respect for it's citizen's privacy that it would never think of such a thing, or at the very least, it would feel terribly ashamed of itself.
 
2013-01-27 08:46:08 PM

Austinoftx: MrSteve007:
When the meter registers a sudden ~6.5kw load, it knows that statistically that's an electric hotwater heater. When it registers a 4.7kw load, that's an electric dyer. Refrigerators are 24/7 0.15kw cycling loads, etc.

I've done outlet monitoring of all of my appliances, and also have installed a TED 5000 meter to monitor the live consumption and output of my PV array and home loads. The utility's smart meter nails my consumption almost to a "T"

Statistical analysis of the bumps in your power load at particular times could tell someone if you took an extra-long shower. It could tell if you had no toast, regular toast, dark toast or extra toast depending on how many times you started the toaster, and whether you stayed later than usual for breakfast. Suppose it was known that you almost always have toast on Saturday and Sunday mornings because you like toast when you're hung over from drinking at the clubs the night before. Say there was a riot or protest one Friday night, and government face-recognition cameras identified you as being within the "Suspended Free-Speech Zone". Say your alibi was that you were at a bar watching the riots on TV, but they can point out that you didn't have toast the next morning, so you didn't seem to have been drinking that night. They would use this to erode your credibility in court, or as enough circumstantial evidence to subpoena video from within the pub you said you were at, the street outside the pub, your street, or even the "for insurance only" video cameras (hypothetically) embedded in all of your smoke detectors just to confirm that toast business in living color.

But then, I'm told I'm a nut and that the government has sufficient respect for it's citizen's privacy that it would never think of such a thing, or at the very least, it would feel terribly ashamed of itself.


Well then, I guess that would be the point at which all those nutjobs hoarding AK-47s spring into action to protect our civil rights.
 
2013-01-27 08:48:31 PM
Irrational paranoia SHOULD be punished by jail time.
 
2013-01-27 08:54:25 PM

Fade2black: Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!


He asked me who got shot. I answered. In contrast, no one asked you a goddamn thing, yet here you are, sloppily horking your retarded pie-hole ejaculate all over our screens.
 
2013-01-27 08:58:43 PM

italie: Well then, I guess that would be the point at which all those nutjobs hoarding AK-47s spring into action to protect our civil right ...


After all, it's simply *unthinkable* that the government would ever exploit an opportunity to disarm it's citizens so that they were easier to manage? They only want to protect us, like the warm, loving Fatherland which they are! Father says we'll never learn to handle guns safely or ethically like he does, so mandatory firearm training is off the table. And if we know what's good for us, we shan't mouth off to him again about what "shall not be infringed" really means. Father's not so reasonable when we make him angry...
 
2013-01-27 09:26:55 PM

This About That: Good grief.

My fellow conspiratorialists: I love the idea that it is only healthy for one to distrust Big Money and Big Gummint, and believe you me I am sensitive to eavesdropping issues and the loss of our personal privacy. But this ain't it. Smart meters allow the power company to do two things:

1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house. This is a tradeoff, from our standpoint, between meter reading jobs and the price of our utility service.

2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

Another little issue is that the utility company really does own the meter and really can do whatever they please with it. Threatening a meter installer is just plain stoopid, and I don't care what your local fearmongers are selling. They aren't always right, as they aren't in this case. The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter is not going to affect your little bear cubs. Also, if you quote Sarah Palin, you should go to jail in handcuffs.


These two idiots aside, there are scams where people will pretend to be from a utility company to get into your house (or on your grounds). Happened to me twice in the last few months.

One guy came to my door around 4:30. I don't open my door to anyone I don't know so we talked through the door. He asked for permission to go look at my meter and replace it, but he had a very thick accent and I couldn't really understand him. He wanted me to open the door and I refused. I asked what power company he was from, and he kept repeating "power company." Anyone should know it's PG&E. He mangled some more garble and I told him if he was legit, I should have a letter in the mail from the "power company" telling me they are going to replace the meter and until I got such a letter, he did not have permission to come onto my property. He said they would send a letter and I said I would keep any eye out for it. Never got a letter.

Then a couple of weeks ago, there was a loud pounding on our door. My husband was home, but he won't open the front door either (I finally taught him not to). He yelled out "Who is it?" The guy outside bellowed "Gas company!" my husband yelled back "Yeah, right! At 8 o'clock at night! Get the fark away from my house." The guy left.

So, something was going on, and I feel sorry for people who fall for this type of thing and open their doors, only to be robbed, raped, or killed. Never open your door to someone you don't know, even if they have a uniform on. (Neither of my visitors did.)
 
2013-01-27 09:41:09 PM

Austinoftx: italie: Well then, I guess that would be the point at which all those nutjobs hoarding AK-47s spring into action to protect our civil right ...

After all, it's simply *unthinkable* that the government would ever exploit an opportunity to disarm it's citizens so that they were easier to manage? They only want to protect us, like the warm, loving Fatherland which they are! Father says we'll never learn to handle guns safely or ethically like he does, so mandatory firearm training is off the table. And if we know what's good for us, we shan't mouth off to him again about what "shall not be infringed" really means. Father's not so reasonable when we make him angry...



If we really believe in the whole "We the people" thing, our problems are a lot deeper than gun control and electricity management. We run this country. We are the government. Hording guns or blocking meter installations aren't the answer to the problem, they are the start of a new one.

I've been to other countries. We don't have it all that bad. If someone wants to require a fancy meter on my house for me to get power, so be it. If the government has the ability to tell when I'm taking a shait, so be it. If they arbitrarily and unreasonably decide to cut my power, then I have an issue. If I want to prevent that scenario, I have two decent options. Stand up with my fellow citizens and fight it in a democratic manner, or cut myself off the grid and make my own power.

Shooting my AK into the sky while shouting FRREEEEEEDDDOOOOMMMMM just doesn't seem like it accomplishes much anything of point, nor does it produce power.
 
2013-01-27 10:10:51 PM

ZackDanger: HoneyDog: 2. It allows the utility to adjust the price in real time against the real time demand, thus allowing us to adjust our usage to make the best use of the energy we buy. Charge the electric car or do the laundry at night. Turn off the air conditioner if everyone is at school or work during the hottest part of the day. Use the energy when it is cheapest. A dumb power meter can't tell the difference, but a smart meter can.

How do they know if there is nobody in the house? I work from home some days. And what about my dogs? Why should they suffer in the heat?

Huh?


Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

http://www.firstlightpower.com/generation/north.asp

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.


In Florida, it's essential.
 
2013-01-27 10:13:35 PM

italie: If we really believe in the whole "We the people" thing, our problems are a lot deeper than gun control and electricity management. We run this country. We are the government. Hording guns or blocking meter installations aren't the answer to the problem, they are the start of a new one.

I've been to other countries. We don't have it all that bad. If someone wants to require a fancy meter on my house for me to get power, so be it. If the government has the ability to tell when I'm taking a shait, so be it. If they arbitrarily and unreasonably decide to cut my power, then I have an issue. If I want to prevent that scenario, I have two decent options. Stand up with my fellow citizens and fight it in a democratic manner, or cut myself off the grid and make my own power.

Shooting my AK into the sky while shouting FRREEEEEEDDDOOOOMMMMM just doesn't seem like it accomplishes much anything of point, nor does it produce power.


Well, you contradict yourself. You snort at the idea of "We The People", but then go on to claim that we're still in charge even if we're powerless to prevent incessant encroachment of our privacy and liberty.

Speak for yourself when you say you don't mind having a compulsory GPS probe up your ass. It's not patriotic to capitulate. How easily you give lip service to the rationale that the capabilities of the new meters, and by extension similar technological intrusions, provide worthwhile advantages. No advantages are worth allowing your privacy and liberty to be chipped away. Now I've done it. Those are probably words the NSA flags.

Why does the utility company need real-time data? Because fark you, that's why. They could make power saving decisions based on hourly readings. They could provide the existing level of service with one reading per billing period. But no, it's real-time, it's compulsory, and there's no opt-out. Because fark you. They could accommodate the tiny tiny number of people who want their analog meters, but no. Seriously no, and we'll send armed goons to drag you away to a cage if you resist, citizen. Enjoy your momentary hope of seeing a drop in your utilities bill. You weren't given any promises, and you're not entitled to promises. Whatcha going to do about it now? We took your guns, hahahaha!
 
2013-01-27 10:58:33 PM

Austinoftx: italie: If we really believe in the whole "We the people" thing, our problems are a lot deeper than gun control and electricity management. We run this country. We are the government. Hording guns or blocking meter installations aren't the answer to the problem, they are the start of a new one.

I've been to other countries. We don't have it all that bad. If someone wants to require a fancy meter on my house for me to get power, so be it. If the government has the ability to tell when I'm taking a shait, so be it. If they arbitrarily and unreasonably decide to cut my power, then I have an issue. If I want to prevent that scenario, I have two decent options. Stand up with my fellow citizens and fight it in a democratic manner, or cut myself off the grid and make my own power.

Shooting my AK into the sky while shouting FRREEEEEEDDDOOOOMMMMM just doesn't seem like it accomplishes much anything of point, nor does it produce power.

Well, you contradict yourself. You snort at the idea of "We The People", but then go on to claim that we're still in charge even if we're powerless to prevent incessant encroachment of our privacy and liberty.

Speak for yourself when you say you don't mind having a compulsory GPS probe up your ass. It's not patriotic to capitulate. How easily you give lip service to the rationale that the capabilities of the new meters, and by extension similar technological intrusions, provide worthwhile advantages. No advantages are worth allowing your privacy and liberty to be chipped away. Now I've done it. Those are probably words the NSA flags.

Why does the utility company need real-time data? Because fark you, that's why. They could make power saving decisions based on hourly readings. They could provide the existing level of service with one reading per billing period. But no, it's real-time, it's compulsory, and there's no opt-out. Because fark you. They could accommodate the tiny tiny number of people who want their analog meters, but no. Serious ...



I'm not contradicting in any way, because I don't feel a smart meter is an unwelcome invasion of privacy. It's also something that I could choose to bypass, leaving me in complete control of said privacy. Power is not a right allotted to me in the constitution, it's a luxury that I am afforded to choose.

The real time data is a valid "thing" that both the power company, and myself, could benefit from. It would be mighty nice to be able to log onto a website and manage my usage. I could actually see how much I'm saving by switching to CFLs, or if that electric heater in the garage is costing more than it's worth. It's a nicety to me, and I welcome it. To the power company, that info is invaluable. Instead of lobbying my state house and senate for another year to jack up fees, they'll find better ways to manage the power they currently generate. Yes, it is that big of a deal. Having real time feedback as to demand would be the next best thing to discovering loss-less transmission. Creating electricity cost money. For every KW they don't have to generate, that is a few dollars they won't have to force on me. At the very least it's a natural resource of one sort or another that gets saved.

Hell, I could still get my daily info from the morning paper so that Google (and the goburnment!) couldn't track my surfing habits. Just seems a bit easier to not give a shait, and use the internet. If some dude from the NSA wants to look at my fark posts and realize that I had nothing better to do on a Sunday night than to discuss this crap, OK by me. (Hi, Mr. NSA guy!)

Dragging her away in cuffs wan't a government conspiracy. It was a poor choice by some piss-ant cops who she ticked off. Was arresting her a little harsh? Probably. Could BOTH sides have prevented it? Yes. This is much ado about nothing. The world is evolving. Come along for the ride.


// If the government really is planning to lockup it's populace, you'd think they would be building more prisons about now....
 
2013-01-28 12:10:10 AM

italie: I'm not contradicting in any way, because I don't feel a smart meter is an unwelcome invasion of privacy. It's also something that I could choose to bypass, leaving me in complete control of said privacy. Power is not a right allotted to me in the constitution, it's a luxury that I am afforded to choose.


Well, the forces at play are working in your favor. You'll very likely get the real-time smart meter you desire. One wonders what your motive is to hit the campaign trail here to try and shush down silly folks like me who don't want such gifts.

// If the government really is planning to lockup it's populace, you'd think they would be building more prisons about now....

Except... oh, right. They are.
 
2013-01-28 01:46:09 AM

Austinoftx: italie: I'm not contradicting in any way, because I don't feel a smart meter is an unwelcome invasion of privacy. It's also something that I could choose to bypass, leaving me in complete control of said privacy. Power is not a right allotted to me in the constitution, it's a luxury that I am afforded to choose.

Well, the forces at play are working in your favor. You'll very likely get the real-time smart meter you desire. One wonders what your motive is to hit the campaign trail here to try and shush down silly folks like me who don't want such gifts.

// If the government really is planning to lockup it's populace, you'd think they would be building more prisons about now....

Except... oh, right. They are.


Funny, last I checked the Bureau of Prisons was broke, and borrowing beds from state institutions.
 
2013-01-28 02:16:05 AM

italie:
Funny, last I checked the Bureau of Prisons was broke, and borrowing beds from state institutions.


I'm so glad you came back!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
The Land of the Free (tm) leads the world in stuffing it's population into cages.

Again, what are you here to argue for? You're getting your surveillance. You won't talk me into embracing it and you wouldn't benefit whether you did or not.
 
2013-01-28 03:59:44 AM
smartmeterpowerstruggle.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-28 04:01:14 AM

UseTheForksLuke: [smartmeterpowerstruggle.files.wordpress.com image 850x622]


That is also the waveform of the average dubstep track.
 
2013-01-28 05:56:59 AM
I'd love to have a wireless meter. Do you know easy those things are to hack?
 
2013-01-28 06:45:43 AM

rezaxis: od advice from Skirl. If I remember reading here earlier it was mentioned putting insulation directly against the underside of the roof. That is not a good thing. It will trap condensing moisture. Same with insulating the und


Depends on whether you use a humidity barrier or not.
 
2013-01-28 08:19:16 AM

Austinoftx: italie:
Funny, last I checked the Bureau of Prisons was broke, and borrowing beds from state institutions.

I'm so glad you came back!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
The Land of the Free (tm) leads the world in stuffing it's population into cages.

Again, what are you here to argue for? You're getting your surveillance. You won't talk me into embracing it and you wouldn't benefit whether you did or not.


I guess I'm here to argue that your a little nutter. Maybe I'm here to complain that your arguments are always just a step to the right of proving the point you were making? I dunno, maybe I'm just bored.

Any way you slice it, I ~know~ I'm not here to convince you of anything. Land of the free 'n all. You have the the right to maintain your paranoid delusions, and I won't get in the way/
 
2013-01-28 10:17:34 AM

Vegetative reproduction: It seems signal transmission is intermittent and uses a mesh network. Stationary detection rather than drive by would be best to pull data, but you would get data from lots of meters at once. The data may be encrypted and with data from lots of meters at once, you would still have to match data pulled to each meter for useful information about any particular house.


I doubt they're using any encryption that's remotely strong, and the fact that a single device is being used to access an entire neighborhood indicates that it's probably weak as well. Also, it's easy to identify each house by making a fairly simple program to perform triangulation while accessing each meter multiple times as you move through the neighborhood. Sure, this isn't stuff that a crappy thief will do, but the ability for it to be done exists, and that's the problem.
 
2013-01-28 10:58:41 AM

This About That: 1. Collect your power bill without sending the meter reader out to your house.


This About That: The low power RF needed to drive-by read your meter


You didn't think your statement all the way through, did you?
 
2013-01-28 12:43:48 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Vegetative reproduction: It seems signal transmission is intermittent and uses a mesh network. Stationary detection rather than drive by would be best to pull data, but you would get data from lots of meters at once. The data may be encrypted and with data from lots of meters at once, you would still have to match data pulled to each meter for useful information about any particular house.

I doubt they're using any encryption that's remotely strong, and the fact that a single device is being used to access an entire neighborhood indicates that it's probably weak as well. Also, it's easy to identify each house by making a fairly simple program to perform triangulation while accessing each meter multiple times as you move through the neighborhood. Sure, this isn't stuff that a crappy thief will do, but the ability for it to be done exists, and that's the problem.


A thief that technically skilled probably wouldn't waste his time stealing from the average home. If you are rich enough to worry about theft from professionals, you are rich enough to pay the monthly fee to have a non-smartmeter (not that that would matter since a smart thief could use other methods to track your activity).

Have you known anyone who was burglarized by professionals? My friends have only been burglarized by kids and drug addicts using tools to pry open windows or bricks to smash windows. In every case the damage to property exceeded the value of property stolen (small electronics and prescription medication).
 
2013-01-28 05:52:53 PM

Vegetative reproduction: A thief that technically skilled probably wouldn't waste his time stealing from the average home. If you are rich enough to worry about theft from professionals, you are rich enough to pay the monthly fee to have a non-smartmeter (not that that would matter since a smart thief could use other methods to track your activity).

Have you known anyone who was burglarized by professionals? My friends have only been burglarized by kids and drug addicts using tools to pry open windows or bricks to smash windows. In every case the damage to property exceeded the value of property stolen (small electronics and prescription medication).


There's no reason to believe it would be expensive or difficult to hack this radio mesh. It's amazing what schoolboys with a spare bit of wire are doing these days. Out of boredom. Picture someone within range of the aggregation node (or possibly any node) who sniffs the encrypted data for several hours, or days, cracks it, and from that point forward can sit in the comfort of his room and watch real-time power consumption of all 236 of his closest neighbors. Open-source software will be developed by someone to auto-tag the spikes and patterns, and identify the service addresses with or without a little wardriving. A black market could open up for this kind of data.

It pains me that all of this vulnerability would be avoided by a little obligatory respect for the customer's privacy built into the system. The meters could simply be designed to send out consumption data once a month. Or once a day. Or once an hour IF the temperature is high or low enough that AC or heat will be rumbling.
 
2013-01-28 06:03:05 PM

italie: I guess I'm here to argue that your a little nutter. Maybe I'm here to complain that your arguments are always just a step to the right of proving the point you were making? I dunno, maybe I'm just bored. Any way you slice it, I ~know~ I'm not here to convince you of anything. Land of the free 'n all. You have the the right to maintain your paranoid delusions, and I won't get in the way/


Head, meet sand.
 
2013-01-28 07:35:52 PM
and yall keep voting Democrat....
 
2013-01-28 10:20:29 PM

Austinoftx: italie: I guess I'm here to argue that your a little nutter. Maybe I'm here to complain that your arguments are always just a step to the right of proving the point you were making? I dunno, maybe I'm just bored. Any way you slice it, I ~know~ I'm not here to convince you of anything. Land of the free 'n all. You have the the right to maintain your paranoid delusions, and I won't get in the way/

Head, meet sand.


We're going to the beach? Oh joy!
 
2013-01-28 11:21:32 PM

italie: We're going to the beach? Oh joy!


Yes, it's this lovely place called Omaha Beach. The commanders aren't expecting to see any conflict.
 
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