stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.

I can agree on not letting them in my house, not so much with forbidding them in my yard. Half of the point of smart meters is that they can be read remotely, therefore you don't ever have to let them in your yard again.

Smart meters cost anywhere from ~$80 to over $500 - and that is just for the meter itself, not the installation. I would rather not have to pay that cost up front to get electricity for my home. I would rather that the company be responsible for the maintenance on it as well. I don't have a landline in my house that I use, but if I did, I would have to pay someone to come over and set everything up from the exterior wall of my house, because they are no longer owned by the phone companies.

To me, at least, electricity is much more of a necessity than a phone, and I would rather not have unexpected maintenance bills come up to keep the oxygen machine in the house working.

stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.

The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

HoneyDog: Honey, outlined in those TOS is the fact that the meter and service equipment is the power company's property. They also are guaranteed access to it. Look at your local regs again.

Where did I say the meter wasn't their property? Where did I say they couldn't come read it. The fact is though, I did not sign a contract. In fact, in the case of the electricity, when I called the electric company to "start service" I was notified by the company that the people we bought the house from notified the electric company that they sold the house to us.

Doesn't matter. You don't need to *sign something* to enter into a contract. You used their service, you paid their bill, you've agreed to their terms.

WhippingBoy: BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.

GOOGLE IT!

You're confusing me with something else.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: WhippingBoy: BraveNewCheneyWorld: machodonkeywrestler: Was it the Connecticut Light and Power study, because that study is so flawed it borders on unscientific.

Bald assertion. Cite your source.

GOOGLE IT!

You're confusing me with something someone else.

phaseolus:
Thanks, now it makes more sense.

Out of curiosity, about the expensive meters with the remote disconnect option -- are they engineered to survive all of the spikes and noise you'd reasonably expect to see on the incoming power from nearby lightning strikes or whatever? What about the electronics on all of the meters? And since this technology's been around a few years now, has the hardware demonstrated that it's likely to pretty much forever like the old meters?

For the most part, they seem to weather surges and noise. We have lightning arresters, grounds, and capacitors all over the place to knock this down as much as possible. We also had the AMR (drive by style radio meters) and digital meters around for over a decade, and they do fine.

As for length of life...the analog meters don't last as long as people think. But we can rebuild them over and over again. Smart meters, not so much. We don't have enough data yet to figure out how hardy they are. An analog can last 30 years. Smart meters might have a life of 15 years, but we're not sure yet.

One thing about analog meters: people who go from analog to digital meters do see a usage spike. The analog meters, being mechanical, do have friction and inertia to overcome to turn the dials. That results in a lower power read. Digital doesn't have that issue, so a higher usage rate.

ZodiacMan: There's no constitutional right to electricity. Instead of arresting them though, the power company should just uninstall all meters and cut off electricity to their homes. If they don't want the electric company's services they can install solar panels or have a hamster generating electricity on a wheel or something. It would be interesting to see how long she can go without watching Fox News in her house.

Came to say this.  Have the utility cut the power then switch to a combination of solar, wind, geothermal and propane.  Many Amish who have modern appliances do this in order to meet the "no-outside contact" requirements of their religion.  LP/CNG refrigerators aren't cheap, but they'd take a huge load off your photovoltaic solar grid.


Also, as for the people who think that the transmitters in these meters cause cancer, go look up the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation.  If non-ionizing RF was actually causing cancer, we'd have cancer clusters around transmitter towers for TV and radio (esp AM clear-channel and UHF TV that pump out serious power).

ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

"We're going to install this meter on your property."
"Fine, but I'm going to record what you do on my property."
"Nope, that's an arresting."

tgambitg: You read that wrong... it said it can disconnect the meter, not the power. There's a difference there when it comes to smart meters. Disconnecting the meter and reconnecting it is useful for when the connection goes wonky (which happens a lot in a wireless connection). And seeing as electric meters are connected to the system as a tap, not as a break point, phaseolus is correct, the meter itself cannot interrupt the power. There is still a manual cutoff that they would need to send out a technician for. Having just resided the house, and gotten my meter replaced with a smart meter, and as a network engineer by trade, I was very interested in this device going in and was present at the wiring. The technician was very helpful in describing what exactly the process was for how it monitors and what information it delivers. And I never lost power when they were switching the meter, so yeah, there's no break point in these meters. All they do is tap into the flow of electricity coming in (or out, depending on how you view the theory of electricity and electron flow) and measure how fast it's going.

No, I'm pretty sure I read it right. All the manufacturers specifically refer to remote disconnect of electricity. Some of them specify that there's a 200 Am relay inside the meter that they can remotely activate. I'm pretty sure that an electricity meter has to be connected in series with the load. How else are you supposed to measure current?

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.

Lsherm:

I think that if you're concerned about finding roof leaks you will need to address that before thinking about insulation. You're right to be worried about ruining it with water or repairs, so just address the root cause. You might be able to do a plywood substrate under your existing tin roof, letting you get a solid and insulated layer between the durable tin and your expensive insulation.

I had an attic like that once (c 1875 construction, additions since). We had a traditional plywood roof (central IL), r30 board insulation under that in the rafters and then thin cheap particle board mounted to the rafters to hide it. Welcome to owning an old home!

/currently in a c 1850 3 story. Was split into three apartments, previous owners renuited them into 1 house again.
//They did brand new roof and 40 brand new energy efficient windows.
///Still has 3 furnaces and 4 electric meters
I////i get to do wiring
//i get to do home automation with the wiring

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.

italie: Mrtraveler01: stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

Yet the phone company and cable company seem to be fine with me owning and controlling the equipment on my property.

Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.

And they can inherently meter service remotely.

I can't remember if my router is property of At&t as well since I subscribe to their U-Verse service.

I want to say that I'm renting that one as well.

James F. Campbell: bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?

Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power

Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!

Uchiha_Cycliste: vpb: mr_a: Nullav: People with the meters installed on their homes reported symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, tinnitus, and DNA breakdown.

God, I hate that feeling. Do you have any idea how irritating that tingle is, ever time the phone rings? Chromosomal erosion sucks.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder what percentage of the people calling to complain about the "RF signals" being sent by the meter were using a cell or wireless phone.

I think it's because RF radiation has "radiation" in it.  They think it's like nuclear fallout of something.

Wouldn't it be so much fun to tell them how much more radiation their wifi routers are TX.

Forget that, if you really want to scare the shiat out of them then tell them that part of their smoke detectors are straight up radioactive.

Fade2black: James F. Campbell: bunner: This About That: and are less like to shoot a utility employee

Who got shot?

Utility worker found dead after going to turn off couple's power

Millions of homes get checked on each day, 1 worker in the past 7 years has gotten shot. TIME TO OVERREACT!

That's not the only reason silly.

Think of how much money and time could be saved by not having to have people drive around to random neighborhoods and read these meters?

Mrtraveler01: Your cable box is the property of the cable company, you just rent it.

Um. No I don't. I have no "cable box" for TV, and I own my own cable modem.

ElBarto79: That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.

And, I have no problem with having a meter at the usage site (my home, to use a more concrete term). What I have a problem with is the fact that the company owns the meter and uses that ownership as justification for their intrusion into where I live.

italie: And they can inherently meter service remotely.

Exactly, which is what makes smart meters great. Now if they'd allow you to own it, they'd be even better.

Oh, and missed this one:

Beretta3000: For the private utilities, your point is dead on.

On the public utility side, we are trying to prevent future rate increases with this technology.

I have a hard time believing that a public utility is any more altruistic than a private company. They're both trying to maximize revenue while minimizing costs.

ElBarto79: stiletto_the_wise: roadmarks: Not sure I understand the outrage here. Would you require people to buy install and service their own meters for the power company? I think that could cause quite a few problems. Or do you think that someone should be able to keep the company from getting to the meter they own? What would the recourse be for the power company if someone tampered with it, or refused to let them read it?

I own my own Cable modem and control the root password. Damned if I'm going to let one of Comcast's mouth-breathers into my home to mess with it. If they want to audit my Internet usage, they have my permission to do it from their end. I'd be more comfortable with smart meters if they were owned by the homeowner and could be accessed remotely only with permission from the homeowner. Certainly not ones that are owned by the electric company and installed by thugs with police escort.

I remember when telephones were owned by the phone company. We're much better off today.

The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

That's easy enough.

A few of these models can be hacked by putting a strong magnet on the side of it.

That's not to mention you can reprogram them as well...

stiletto_the_wise:

I have a hard time believing that a public utility is any more altruistic than a private company. They're both trying to maximize revenue while minimizing costs.

Depends on how they are setup. We're not allowed to profit. Everything we do is at cost and our budget/any rate increases has to be approved by the city.

So in theory, yes: we are trying to maximize what we can do with the money allotted us by keeping cost down in other areas.

meat0918: The problem I would see with you owning your own meter is that you can tamper with it. The power company needs a way to monitor the power usage of every house for billing purposes. If you own and control your own meter it's basically on the honor system that the power usage you are reporting via your meter is accurate, they have no way of independently verifying it.

That's easy enough.

A few of these models can be hacked by putting a strong magnet on the side of it.

That's not to mention you can reprogram them as well...

People have been hacking their power meters ever since they were invented. Whatever the technology used it's still illegal and if they figure out you've done something you'll be in trouble.

Bad_Seed: tgambitg:

No, I'm pretty sure I read it right. All the manufacturers specifically refer to remote disconnect of electricity. Some of them specify that there's a 200 Am relay inside the meter that they can remotely activate. I'm pretty sure that an electricity meter has to be connected in series with the load. How else are you supposed to measure current?

The meter is not connected in series. It uses magnetic loops around the power cables to measure the power flow through said cables.

On smart meters with a disconnect, the magnetic loops remain, but a section is added on that runs the power cables to a relay within the meter itself. If the relay is triggered, the meter is still powered, but not allowing power to flow into the house.

stiletto_the_wise: ElBarto79: That's is a little different. Your cable modem has a unique ip number, the cable company knows exactly how many bits are being sent to that modem. Same with your phone, you have a unique phone number, the telephone company can monitor the usage remotely. Electricity however flows like water through the power grid, the only way they can know who is using what is to put a meter at the usage site.

And, I have no problem with having a meter at the usage site (my home, to use a more concrete term). What I have a problem with is the fact that the company owns the meter and uses that ownership as justification for their intrusion into where I live.

Fair enough, if you want to detach from the grid and produce your own power I'm pretty sure that can be done. But if you want to use the power companies power then you have to play by their rules, which includes sticking a meter on the side of your house and giving them access to it.

BANG...Smart meters reduce the chance of house fires. It will pop its breaker if it detects massive surging in the flow.
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
BANGSmart meters allow load shearing and grid adjustments. By knowing how much power is actually being consumed the network can then adjust the "pressure" they're applying to your grid, more to maintain the voltage or less to keep "evaporation" from occurring in the grid. The most inefficient part of commercial power distribution is the grid itself, it leaks like canvas fire hoses.
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.
BANGSmart meters reduce the number of employees who have to walk the grid. Not only does this reduce payroll but it reduces insurance. Think dogs and holes.
BANGSmart meters reduce YOUR cost, they use less power than regular meters and as regular meters get older they can error in increased reading.

Now, a couple argument points:
1. No trespass occurred, the power company has the right to enter your property to read the meter at any time and any attempt to block them is a class 1 misdemeanor.
2. It is illegal in Illinois to harass, annoy, distract or interrupt power company workers. No arguments to get around this, if you interrupt a power worker and it kills him OR you, it is YOUR fault.
3. The power company has the right to replace equipment as it sees fit for its purposes and use, that meter on your house is NOT YOURS and you have no control over it.
4. By sending in your first payment you signed a contract to agree with all the stipulations.
5. The RF produced by the meter is LESS than a garage door opener, it doesn't transmit continuously - it responds to the transceiver tool.
6. The only way you can win against a Chicago cop is to shoot them dead in the ten foot hole beside the running concrete truck when you trick them to the wrong address. Try anything else and you're farked either in court or when they find you.

Lochsteppe: Richard C Stanford: Of course this is from brietfart so anything from it should be taken with 2 grains of salt.
I mean, the site has a tab labeled "Big Peace". What the hell does that even mean?

The peace-industrial complex is notorious for hugging its enemies to death. They're not to be trifled with. Look at Brietblart: he dared to speak truth to their power, and they hugged him to death with cocaine.

Me Obamese, me play joke, me put Po in Breitbart's coke

/i keed, because i'm not crazy

The city says they have an alternate 'normal style' meter, why replace the old 'normal style' meter then? Oh, that's right, because fark you, pay us $50 more per month that's why.

udhq: fredklein: phaseolus: Maybe my imagination is failing me, here, but I can't conceive of any reason how a power utility could possibly benefit from a.) collecting and b.) paying attention to that kind of data on an individual house basis.

One simple example: "People in this neighborhood turn on their TVs at 5:30. Maybe a business in that neighborhood might like to buy advertising at 5:31??"

If you're claiming that these things are monitoring individual appliances, that's a pretty extraordinary claim that I believes deserves a citation.

The point isn't "Git out the tinfoil- they're doing this now!!!1!11!", the point is "This technology allows them to do this in the future, therefore we need to be careful."

machodonkeywrestler: You're just making yourself look more stupid. A smart meter does not control the AC in your home. All it does is enable real time monitoring of your meter. People have explained this to you many times in this thread.


Example of an Open smart grid protocol (OSGP) based smart meter in use in Europe that has the ability to reduce load, disconnect-reconnect remotely, and interface to gas and water meters

http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/get-advice/energy/smart-meters-what- ar e-they-and-how-can-i-find-out-more/benefits-and-disadvantages-of-smart -meters#B7
What is technically possible with a smart meter

At present most of us can use as much electricity as we want, provided we can afford to pay for it. Smart meters will make it possible in the future for energy suppliers to offer cheaper tariffs with a 'load limit' or to use this function if you fall into debt.

If you have this type of tariff your energy supplier could limit the amount of electricity that you can use at any one time eg they could supply only a very low level of electricity, for example enough electricity to power lights, a fridge and TV. Your energy supplier could also, in agreement with you, put a cap on the amount of energy you use in a given period eg per day or week. This is called 'load limiting'. As explained above, none of the energy suppliers are currently using load limiting.
...
Appliance control trials

This type of technology is not yet widely used in Great Britain but some energy suppliers are trialling it. For example, one energy supplier has run a customer trial of smart fridges that can respond to signals from the National Grid. This means they shut down for short periods when electricity demand is at its highest, without (in theory) any effect on performance or the freshness of food. This has the benefit of helping to keep the lights on for everyone and can keep costs down as there may be less need to invest in new generation and distribution equipment ie substations, cables, overhead lines etc

So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?

The women video recorded police on their own property and they were charged with felony wiretapping.

These women are not the ones that need arresting.

HoneyDog: Oh, they know. THEY KNOW.

So my dogs would just be SOL.

Huh?

Electricity is cheaper at night. A smart reader knows *when* you are using electricity, so they can change the rates based on overall demand in the system. (A little cheaper at night, a little more expensive during the day for example.) There are in fact power/profit generation plants that operate on this principal alone.

Of course a smart meter would know when I'm using the electricity. You missed the point. I sometimes work at home, so they could shut off my AC when I'm at home? What about my dogs, are they supposed to die of heat exhaustion because the company wants to shut off my AC during the day.

If you want to keep your AC on during the day, that's your prerogative.

Not according to the smart meter that is set at 75 degrees in the evening from 4 pm to 10 pm M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday. And is set at 78 degrees M-F from 7 am to 4 pm when we are usually out of the house.

You have a smart meter that is set up to regulate the temperature of your house without your permission, and without you having the ability to control it? I highly doubt this.

Also, dogs have a higher body temperature. A temperature that is comfortable for us is likely a bit cold for them.

KarmicDisaster: prjindigo...
BANGSmart meters report power outages. They can quickly check to see which ones aren't reporting in.
...
BANGSmart meters can report lightning strikes. While almost useless to you, this is very useful to the power company, they can investigate the area.

Uh, isn't the range of the meters quite low? How will they report power outages and lightening strikes unless they are constantly driving up and down outside your house to pick up the transmissions? I don't see how this will really help in any practical way, you will still have to call in and get them out there to read your meter.

Lots of ways to transmit depending on the meter.

One style can transmit on the old pager frequencies for a few miles to a radio tower that then transmit to the utility. Another have the meters "hop-scotch" info to one another until they get to a main collector tower that transmits to the utility. Another technique involves the meters having cell cards and transmit via cell comm paths back to the utility.

There is also broadband over power line, where the meter transmits back on the electric lines. This works for rural but is horrible for urban with th amount of bypasses you have to install.

fredklein: So, it's only in "trials" now, but you seriously think they won't push it out as soon as possible, and as hard as possible?

Maybe, but only for people that opt into it. Most power companies would have low benefit in having everybody use less electricty. Now, during times when usage may result in larger outages I could see where homes with that device may help the power company, but I honestly believe they want inefficent homes and power hogs on the grid. It just means more cash for said company. Personally, I might opt into that program if it would reduce my monthly bill. Some won't but it would most certainly be an "option" and not mandatory.

Here is some logic for you uneducated yet opinionated idiots who just aren't getting it.

If I'm buying something from you on a regular basis and you are the only one I can buy
it from, and you insist on putting something inbetween us that gives you more direct
control over whatever it is I'm buying, then the benefit is all yours, not mine.
Especially when the thing between us will allow an outside directive,
like from the government, to bypass even your control and directly affect me -
not to mention all the tweaks it will allow you to do to maximize profit without me
having anything to say or do about it.
The individual consumer comes last in the 'how does this benefit anyone'
consideration. And turning over the ability to gather more information about me and
turning over more control on how the product is rationed is much more in your benefit
(and others) rather than mine. So concern is more than warranted.

Lsherm: This About That: A whole-house extractor fan would help, too. The extractor pulls the hot air from the upstairs after it cools off outside after dark, and sends it into the attic to displace the even hotter air up there. Open windows downstairs and start it up after dark.

Yeah, I have one in the attic above the bedrooms.  Once again, the problem is that it's an old farmhouse, so it was built in stages (whenever they needed more room, they just built another room) - so I have 4 attics.

I'm torn about installing vents in the bedroom ceilings to pass air up to the attic to let the fan work better.  It would let the bedrooms cool off faster from the attic fan, but it would be a nightmare in the winter unless I closed them off tight.

This About That: Have you investigated how long it would take to recoup the cost of insulation? Hint: Start with the attic.

That's the thing - the attic above the bedrooms IS insulated.  It has blown insulation between the bedroom ceilings and the attic floor (it's a walk up attic) and rolled thin foil insulation on the floor.  The only other thing I can insulate is the clapboard roof the tin is nailed to, presumably with hard foam insulation, but I'm worried about doing that because it would make water leaks harder to find.  Also, since either end of the attic has a full size 4.5 foot window on it, I'm not sure if it would do any good.  Insulating the attic floor seemed like the best option at some point, and I'm inclined to agree with whoever made that decision.

Here's a picture of the bedroom attic with an inspector and our real estate agent during a walkthrough.  You can see the blown insulation, the back of the tin from the roof, the floorboards, and you can barely make out a window behind the inspector.  The only thing we've added since this picture was taken was foil insulation on top of the floorboards, but it didn't seem to help much.


I'm sure I'll work it out over the next 20 years or so. ...

that doesn't look like enough insulation up there. Current code dictates R38 or more (depending what state you are living in). You probably have somewhere around R19 which is the new wall minimum. It would equate to about 16" inches of blown in insulation (http://www.lowes.com/pd_213143-1722-B781_4294858108__?productId=30244 75&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_avg_rat ing%7C1&facetInfo=). I would also install an insulated bathroom exhaust fan flex pipe and maybe some 6 mil plastic sheeting over the window in the attic. That foil shiat does almost nothing compared to actual insulation.

in order to get enough insulation up there you will have to pull that floor up, blow the insulation in and then re install taller floor structure (to compensate for the additional insulation) and then the floor. Also if you have a ridge vent and soffit vents you will have to add one of those rafter vents (http://www.lowes.com/pd_135588-75227-UPV14480_4294858107__?productId= 3012018&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1) at the start of the eave so that your blown in insulation doesn't close the necessary attic ventilation.

I will be doing a similar thing on a 50s rancher that I bought recently.

sorry about those damn Lowe's long ass links....