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(AlterNet)   Yes, It Has   (alternet.org) divider line 160
    More: Obvious, dictators, mass unemployment, C. Wright Mills  
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20668 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 10:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-27 11:19:02 AM

Deathfrogg: I finally realized it for myself when I was summarily evicted from an I-5 freeway rest stop by an extremely rude Oregon State Trooper for parking to snooze for a few hours while driving from Seattle to San Jose. I had been there for all of about 20 minutes when the man came up to my truck and bashed on the door with his flashlight several times and then opened it up and told my I would have to leave or I would be arrested on the spot. When I asked him, (rather blearily, I had just dozed off when he came knocking) on what charge, he told me he'd "think of something."


seriously? the name "rest stop" even implies that this is the stated purpose of the facility. times have changed, and i'm young!
 
2013-01-27 11:19:04 AM

impaler: It's becoming more of a corporate oligarchy, if anything.


RollerBooBoo?
 
2013-01-27 11:20:03 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-27 11:20:44 AM

Katolu: Yep, it started 9/12/01. No looking back now!


No, it started a lot longer ago than that. Probably around 1776.
 
2013-01-27 11:21:11 AM

Deathfrogg: BlippityBleep: i think it was the point where i was kicked out of a park bench for zero reason by a park ranger while i was waiting for a friend to go tour the White House when i realized that we're really farked up.

now pick up that can, citizen.

I finally realized it for myself when I was summarily evicted from an I-5 freeway rest stop by an extremely rude Oregon State Trooper for parking to snooze for a few hours while driving from Seattle to San Jose. I had been there for all of about 20 minutes when the man came up to my truck and bashed on the door with his flashlight several times and then opened it up and told my I would have to leave or I would be arrested on the spot. When I asked him, (rather blearily, I had just dozed off when he came knocking) on what charge, he told me he'd "think of something."


I have found the phrase "speak into the mic, constable" helpful in such situation, but the cops are a little less shooty here.
 
2013-01-27 11:21:49 AM
That article was so crammed with nebulous buzzwords and self-important rhetoric it was unreadable. If I were handed that paper, I'd hand it back with a note for the author to read Orwell's essay on the English language. The first rule of any piece of political writing is be comprehensible to the reader.

However, it came from AlerNet, a source of similar argle-bargle on a disturbingly regular basis. They are so prone to self-congratulatory pronouncements that I have entirely given up on reading their stuff.
 
2013-01-27 11:22:54 AM
I wish teh world would come liberate us, like we did for them all those times. But, they are too weak.
 
2013-01-27 11:24:20 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Poor baby's scared, better hide behind mommy's skirt.


I didn't want anyone to miss the intellectual firepower of the left, so I am reposting this.

Illinois has the lowest credit rating of any state in the country.
 
2013-01-27 11:25:17 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: heinrich66: I love how an article supposedly on a system-wide transformation of the American Republic into an authoritarian system still manages to take the time to blame the "Republicans" and tries to excuse the "Democrats" -- criticizing them only for when they act like "Republicans".

Do you honestly deny that Republicans are a profoundly authoritarian party? At least Democrats have a huge faction who are committed to civil liberties and equal rights; the GOP no longer pays even lip service to those concepts.


Correction, the Democrats are only committed to the civil liberties they agree with. They are perfectly capable of playing the authoritarian card when it comes to things they think are "for the public good". You know, like magazine size and Big Gulps.
 
2013-01-27 11:27:20 AM
So use those guns and rise up?
 
2013-01-27 11:28:54 AM
This country used to be a land of freedom, discovery, and opportunity.

Now it's just garbage.
 
2013-01-27 11:32:14 AM
My sister would tell you that none of this matters because we're all under the rule of the Bilderbergs and the Illuminati anyway and Obama is just another one of their puppets. Obviously, she sees things a little...differently than say, you or I.
 
2013-01-27 11:33:36 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: heinrich66: I love how an article supposedly on a system-wide transformation of the American Republic into an authoritarian system still manages to take the time to blame the "Republicans" and tries to excuse the "Democrats" -- criticizing them only for when they act like "Republicans".

Do you honestly deny that Republicans are a profoundly authoritarian party? At least Democrats have a huge faction who are committed to civil liberties and equal rights; the GOP no longer pays even lip service to those concepts.


Is that the same huge faction that is currently trying to enact gun bans?
 
2013-01-27 11:34:18 AM
The article started out well, but then it turned into yet another leftist screed. Let's see, the USA has become an authoritarian country so the solution is to IMPLEMENT EVEN MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL????


Sorry, Democrats, but the freedom to screw is NOT the only freedom worth saving. Screw you you want, marry who you want (so long as the desires to screw and marry are mutual), but there is a lot more to a free society than that. A free society cannot exist on the basis of massive confiscation of wealth at gunpoint--and that is what our current taxation is. It is a widespread threat of violence, a gun aimed at every American. Changing the amount extorted will not alter the fundamental injustice of explicit wealth redistribution. Yes, power and wealth have concentrated--but this is NOT some inevitable event that can only be stopped by communistic control of the economy by government or confiscation of all wealth. This level of concentration only occurs with active collusion of government and those in power. Warren Buffet is every bit as rich and powerful as anyone else, after all.

The author pretends to make lip service to evils done by the Democrats, but he then explicitly paints the Republican party as the sole actuator of authoritarianism. He's just another partisan shill. He would have no problem at all with an authoritarian government so long as it confiscated all wealth, dictated the economy, let people screw whoever they wanted, and just ignored them when they complained. As long as it advocated his own leftist agenda, he would denounce its opponents as "anti-progressive" or "authoritarian".
 
2013-01-27 11:34:55 AM
If you think America is "authoritarian", you're a naive pansy with no concept of the outside world.

"Wah, I have to walk through a scanner at an airport. Wahwahwah, we have a right to bear arms unlike other nations, but the president is proposing more background checks -- I'm being oppressed! Marijuana gets you executed in several countries, but it's still not fully legal here. Wah!"

a.abcnews.com
"I'm concerned about SOPA, but instead of a rational discourse, I'll say it's worse than Arabs cutting off a man's hand for shoplifting. I'm living in a fascist state!"
 
2013-01-27 11:36:34 AM

Deathfrogg: BlippityBleep: i think it was the point where i was kicked out of a park bench for zero reason by a park ranger while i was waiting for a friend to go tour the White House when i realized that we're really farked up.

now pick up that can, citizen.

I finally realized it for myself when I was summarily evicted from an I-5 freeway rest stop by an extremely rude Oregon State Trooper for parking to snooze for a few hours while driving from Seattle to San Jose. I had been there for all of about 20 minutes when the man came up to my truck and bashed on the door with his flashlight several times and then opened it up and told my I would have to leave or I would be arrested on the spot. When I asked him, (rather blearily, I had just dozed off when he came knocking) on what charge, he told me he'd "think of something."


What did he think a "rest stop" was for? Here we get signs telling us to do exactly that if we feel tired.
 
2013-01-27 11:38:17 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: Probably no more than the US has historically been authoritarian. The difference between then and now is that one political party is mindlessly authoritarian and comprises multiple mass propaganda outlets.


But enough about Fox News...what about the librul media?
 
2013-01-27 11:40:20 AM

Silly_Sot: ... Yes, power and wealth have concentrated--but this is NOT some inevitable event that can only be stopped by communistic control of the economy by government or confiscation of all wealth...


Here's another moron. Go live in Vietnam for a year if you want to witness communism, you dolt.

I'm normally polite, but you're just an imbecile. You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it. Instead, you'll continue to rely upon your government education and drive to work on your government roads while listening to an Ayn Rand audio book and telling yourself that those government police are as bad as the Stasi.
 
2013-01-27 11:40:37 AM
Ahh, but our own Senators voted for it. Patriot Act.

//Remember when Dick Cheney said indirectly that criticizing the president was reason for arrest?
 
2013-01-27 11:41:04 AM

LarryDan43: So use those guns and rise up?


When Americans finally realize what is happening to us, We will
 
2013-01-27 11:42:19 AM

MacWizard: "Obvious"? How about "Asinine"?


Or perhaps, "Sad."
 
2013-01-27 11:42:43 AM

Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.


Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?
 
2013-01-27 11:45:13 AM

Wayne 985: If you think America is "authoritarian", you're a naive pansy with no concept of the outside world.


Also, this. As I stated above, I do think we're in the earliest stages, but there's a need to put things into perspective: we are not North Korea, or China, or Russia. We're not Venezuela, to use a lesser example. We're not even freaking Norway.

This doesn't mean that there are not problems: we should be alarmed. But we are not yet where the Tea Partiers and Occupiers of the world claim we are.
 
2013-01-27 11:45:22 AM

Flint Ironstag: Deathfrogg: BlippityBleep: i think it was the point where i was kicked out of a park bench for zero reason by a park ranger while i was waiting for a friend to go tour the White House when i realized that we're really farked up.

now pick up that can, citizen.

I finally realized it for myself when I was summarily evicted from an I-5 freeway rest stop by an extremely rude Oregon State Trooper for parking to snooze for a few hours while driving from Seattle to San Jose. I had been there for all of about 20 minutes when the man came up to my truck and bashed on the door with his flashlight several times and then opened it up and told my I would have to leave or I would be arrested on the spot. When I asked him, (rather blearily, I had just dozed off when he came knocking) on what charge, he told me he'd "think of something."

What did he think a "rest stop" was for? Here we get signs telling us to do exactly that if we feel tired.


Must have been a picnic area with no facilities. They are not for sleeping.
 
2013-01-27 11:45:50 AM

AverageAmericanGuy:
But 11 years and 3 months ago our beacon of hope was snuffed out. We turned from the Home of the Brave into the home of the cowering pusillanimous slaves to Fear. Once upon a time, we had nothing to fear but fear itself.



img707.imageshack.us
 
2013-01-27 11:46:02 AM

untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?


Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.
 
2013-01-27 11:46:34 AM
vagrant
 
2013-01-27 11:46:58 AM

budrojr: I can't make a true assessment of just how bad this article could be overall considering I got down to this line on the front page before my head exploded: "The fiscal cliff argument is manufactured both in that it is not a real crisis (except for its impact on poor and middle-class families), and it serves as a diversion from pressing issues ranging from mass unemployment and widespread poverty, to the housing crisis and the student debt bomb.

So, it's only a real crisis if it affects the rich?


I think you misread that paragraph.

t3knomanser: Stone Meadow: Umm...1791...the year the USG first used force against its own citizens; whiskey tax protesters in Western Pennsylvania.

I'm not certain that's fair to count. The Whiskey Rebellion is better thought of as the finale of the American Revolution, or even a second revolution. It was a direct consequence of changing the form of government from a Confederacy to a Republic.


I grant that the rebellion was the direct consequence of forming a republic, but I reject the notion that it was a continuation of the Revolution. Western Pennsylvania had representation in Congress, so claims of lofty idealism fall on deaf ears to me. To me the explanation is simpler; right from the beginning Hamilton and Congress never hesitated to use the power of taxation and a willingness to use military force to enforce it against the citizenry...the beginnings of our long-standing authoritarian government.
 
2013-01-27 11:48:06 AM

Rich Cream: AverageAmericanGuy:
But 11 years and 3 months ago our beacon of hope was snuffed out. We turned from the Home of the Brave into the home of the cowering pusillanimous slaves to Fear. Once upon a time, we had nothing to fear but fear itself.

[img707.imageshack.us image 241x538]


Your 20th century leader signed an order permitting internment camps because people were scared of the Japanese. I'd like to see a current politician do that to Arabs; they wouldn't be able to, because we've progressed significantly.
 
2013-01-27 11:50:23 AM

Wayne 985: untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?

Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.


It's a good thing we don't have a heavy progressive income tax, or a central bank, or an estate tax, or public schools or heavily regulated zoning and planning, then. Otherwise you'd be dead wrong.
 
2013-01-27 11:52:18 AM

proteus_b: Deathfrogg: I finally realized it for myself when I was summarily evicted from an I-5 freeway rest stop by an extremely rude Oregon State Trooper for parking to snooze for a few hours while driving from Seattle to San Jose. I had been there for all of about 20 minutes when the man came up to my truck and bashed on the door with his flashlight several times and then opened it up and told my I would have to leave or I would be arrested on the spot. When I asked him, (rather blearily, I had just dozed off when he came knocking) on what charge, he told me he'd "think of something."

seriously? the name "rest stop" even implies that this is the stated purpose of the facility. times have changed, and i'm young!


Thats almost exactly what I said to him. The conversation went something like this:

BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM (on the side of my Blazer) Then he opens the door.
Officer: "You're going to have to leave."
Me: "WTF, Huh, what..."
Officer: "You need to leave, right now."
Me: "Why, I just got here."
Officer: "That doesn't matter, I told you that you need to leave."
Me:"I just got to sleep."
Officer: "This isn't the place for that, you go into town and get a motel room if you want to do that, now LEAVE."
Me: "But this is a rest stop."
"Thats right, this is a rest stop, not a campsite. You're going to have to leave, right now."
"I just got here."
"Right now, I mean RIGHT NOW, or I will place you under arrest."
"On what charge?"
"Believe me, I'll think of something, now LEAVE."

So, I climbed back into the seat and started the truck and the prick followed me all the way into Springfield. I ended up crashing out in the driveway of an old family friends abandoned farm, which I would have done in the first place if I could have gotten ahold of them on the phone. I didn't even realize it was totally abandoned and that they'd moved until I woke up the next morning and realized the place was empty and the orchards around the place were three feet high in grass and blackberry. It was obvious they hadn't lived there in at least a couple years.
 
2013-01-27 11:54:02 AM

Choo-Choo Bear: edmo: The fact that America is becoming increasingly conservative

Citation, please.

Is this based upon your not-at-all-myopic view, your having lived in the 1950's, and your unfamiliarity with the current president, re-elected?

Yes, America is much more conservative now than ever.


Fox news?
That was an easy one.
You're obviously one of the majority of conservatives I meet- not smart.
 
2013-01-27 11:54:56 AM
Relax everyone, you will get your medical marijuana eventually. Stoned and defenseless is exactly how they want you.
 
2013-01-27 12:00:13 PM

untaken_name: Wayne 985: untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?

Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.

It's a good thing we don't have a heavy progressive income tax, or a central bank, or an estate tax, or public schools or heavily regulated zoning and planning, then. Otherwise you'd be dead wrong.


t2.gstatic.com

"I have to pay a few cents toward public education. This is just like Tiananmen Square."
 
2013-01-27 12:00:36 PM

untaken_name: Wayne 985: untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?

Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.

It's a good thing we don't have a heavy progressive income tax, or a central bank, or an estate tax, or public schools or heavily regulated zoning and planning, then. Otherwise you'd be dead wrong.


That's closer to light socialism than communism.

Communism is everyone is equal in terms of class, and wealth. Which comes into a fallacy when there is a leader at the top, which is why Communism never really works out as intended.

Socialism attempts to lessen the gap between the lower and upper classes. There will never be absolute equality like Communism attempts, there will be the rich, there will be the poor, but one will be taxed less than the other. American Socialism, really, is based off the Iroquois Confederacy. So really, our way of life, free public schools (but with taxes) welfare, healthcare, is about as American as you can get.
 
2013-01-27 12:04:09 PM

zepillin: Must have been a picnic area with no facilities. They are not for sleeping.



It was a freeway rest stop, direct exit and entrance to I-5 and no other access. It had bathrooms, and a coffee shop thingy in the main building. The lot on the other side of the place was full of heavy trucks where the drivers could stop and sleep in their sleeper cabs. It was expressly designed for the purpose of allowing travelers to have a place to rest for a while on a journey.
 
2013-01-27 12:05:13 PM

KangTheMad: untaken_name: Wayne 985: untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?

Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.

It's a good thing we don't have a heavy progressive income tax, or a central bank, or an estate tax, or public schools or heavily regulated zoning and planning, then. Otherwise you'd be dead wrong.

That's closer to light socialism than communism.

Communism is everyone is equal in terms of class, and wealth. Which comes into a fallacy when there is a leader at the top, which is why Communism never really works out as intended.

Socialism attempts to lessen the gap between the lower and upper classes. There will never be absolute equality like Communism attempts, there will be the rich, there will be the poor, but one will be taxed less than the other. American Socialism, really, is based off the Iroquois Confederacy. So really, our way of life, free public schools (but with taxes) welfare, healthcare, is about as American as you can get.


It's not even that socialist. The difference between people like Barack Obama and Francois Hollande is staggering.
 
2013-01-27 12:06:23 PM

Wayne 985: "I have to pay a few cents toward public education. This is just like Tiananmen Square."


personal income tax in China is negligible

// Chinese employer
/ Also US employer... for now - ending that - fark the US
 
2013-01-27 12:07:13 PM

Stone Meadow: FTA has a properly provocative title, but reads like one of those computer-generated papers that are devoid of any real content, instead being one sentence and paragraph after another filled with glittering generalities and banal conclusions that don't even address the title's claim.

So, the questions is...was that a deliberate example of the offence the author accuses the government of perpetrating? In which case it was subtle. Or just shiatty writing?


The oversomnambulance of the reticular digression was decisively constabulatory to the extreme of self-revelation.

Obviously.
 
2013-01-27 12:07:47 PM

LarryDan43: So use those guns and rise up?


dl.dropbox.com


I'm doubtful that will have a chance to happen.

The more authority our leaders grab in the name of security, the more responsibility is cast on them for making us feel safe.
Obviously they can't stop every incident. These events erode public trust and drive politicians to either buy more equipment or find new scapegoats.
Eventually the voters faith in these men either fades (voting out the authoritarians) or the system collapses due to lack of money.

Corporate America may be able to buy votes, bloggers, and spiffy add campaigns, but it won't be able to support the Orwellian dream once the bills really start coming in. They'll buck for greener pastures, leaving the old government to pay its debts.

/I don't think anyone will ever really need a gun for fighting the government.
/They'll need them to keep their fellow citizens in a behaving frame of mind if or when the lights go out.
 
2013-01-27 12:09:25 PM

Deathfrogg: zepillin: Must have been a picnic area with no facilities. They are not for sleeping.


It was a freeway rest stop, direct exit and entrance to I-5 and no other access. It had bathrooms, and a coffee shop thingy in the main building. The lot on the other side of the place was full of heavy trucks where the drivers could stop and sleep in their sleeper cabs. It was expressly designed for the purpose of allowing travelers to have a place to rest for a while on a journey.


Were there any bumper stickers on your car? What kind of car was it? Was it fancy (BMW, Benz)? Did it make a statement (Prius, Volvo)?

Sounds like this guy had an issue with you personally.
 
2013-01-27 12:11:06 PM

Wayne 985: KangTheMad: untaken_name: Wayne 985: untaken_name: Wayne 985: You have no Earthly concept of how good you have it.

Things could be a lot worse, so there aren't any legitimate problems with government over-reach? Is that about the size of it?

Not what I said. I said that comparing American government to communism was foolish.

It's a good thing we don't have a heavy progressive income tax, or a central bank, or an estate tax, or public schools or heavily regulated zoning and planning, then. Otherwise you'd be dead wrong.

That's closer to light socialism than communism.

Communism is everyone is equal in terms of class, and wealth. Which comes into a fallacy when there is a leader at the top, which is why Communism never really works out as intended.

Socialism attempts to lessen the gap between the lower and upper classes. There will never be absolute equality like Communism attempts, there will be the rich, there will be the poor, but one will be taxed less than the other. American Socialism, really, is based off the Iroquois Confederacy. So really, our way of life, free public schools (but with taxes) welfare, healthcare, is about as American as you can get.

It's not even that socialist. The difference between people like Barack Obama and Francois Hollande is staggering.


Well, I figure that since Fox and friends throw around communist and socialist, around so much, I should explain what those terms mean.
 
2013-01-27 12:13:49 PM

TomD9938: FTA : Decontextualized ideas and issues, coupled with the overflow of information produced by the new electronic media, make it more difficult to create narratives that offer historical understanding, relational connections and developmental sequences. The fragmentation of ideas and the cascade of information reinforce new modes of depoliticization and authoritarianism


CON-SPIRACY
 
2013-01-27 12:15:53 PM

Slartibartfaster: Also US employer... for now - ending that - fark the US


Good. Get the hell out. You're like a house guest who mooches and then becomes indignant when he's asked to pitch in.

For the record, you'd better get those ideas of protest out of your head before you go too. America might tolerate you bashing it on the Internet, but the Chinese tend to frown on that, assuming you're even able to access web sites that aren't censored and restricted.
 
2013-01-27 12:16:59 PM

KangTheMad: Well, I figure that since Fox and friends throw around communist and socialist, around so much, I should explain what those terms mean.


I'm glad you did - just irritated that it even needs to be done.
 
2013-01-27 12:17:11 PM
The US has pretty much engaged in some type of warfare since the beginning of its history, the period we now live in bears such striking similarity to the start of the 20th century that it's almost laughable, apart from the start of a world war which would pretty much end the world nowadays, yesterday's anarchists are today's terrorists. The infamous act was the assassination of a president vs the toppling of buildings that had been targeted ever since they went up.

We keep thinking of America as being this land of opportunity, and it still is in a way, but we're at a dangerous point where the rule of law is being challenged to the rule of wealth, when did we become so afraid of doing what is right, and jailing those who seek to make a mockery of our courts by flaunting wealth as a shield for their criminality. If we lose our place in this world it will be because we gave it up.
 
2013-01-27 12:17:37 PM

TomD9938: Deathfrogg: zepillin: Must have been a picnic area with no facilities. They are not for sleeping.


It was a freeway rest stop, direct exit and entrance to I-5 and no other access. It had bathrooms, and a coffee shop thingy in the main building. The lot on the other side of the place was full of heavy trucks where the drivers could stop and sleep in their sleeper cabs. It was expressly designed for the purpose of allowing travelers to have a place to rest for a while on a journey.

Were there any bumper stickers on your car? What kind of car was it? Was it fancy (BMW, Benz)? Did it make a statement (Prius, Volvo)?

Sounds like this guy had an issue with you personally.


'72 Blazer, 8 inch lift, not beautiful but in good shape, no stickers or anything. If he had an issue with me "personally" the fact that he pretty much picked me out at random at close to midnight.

Which only makes him a deranged authoritarian prick with no sense of what his actual job responsibility is supposed to be.
 
2013-01-27 12:18:25 PM

Wayne 985: Slartibartfaster: Also US employer... for now - ending that - fark the US

Good. Get the hell out. You're like a house guest who mooches and then becomes indignant when he's asked to pitch in.

For the record, you'd better get those ideas of protest out of your head before you go too. America might tolerate you bashing it on the Internet, but the Chinese tend to frown on that, assuming you're even able to access web sites that aren't censored and restricted.


Let me clarify my friend here. If you're not bringing anything to the table besides complaints, go.
 
2013-01-27 12:20:06 PM
just to make the thread head for nuclear territory...
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-27 12:21:17 PM

Wayne 985: KangTheMad: Well, I figure that since Fox and friends throw around communist and socialist, around so much, I should explain what those terms mean.

I'm glad you did - just irritated that it even needs to be done.


Yeah...some people think Hitler was left-wing socialist.

//you could argue that since Hitler's party was named the National Socialist Workers Party, he was socialist in name, and you'd be correct. But his policies were very much fascist. He called his party socialist because communism at the time was popular in Germany.
 
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