If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Raw Story)   Not news: Catholic hospital chain beats malpractice suit. Irony: By declaring that fetuses aren't people   (rawstory.com) divider line 129
    More: Interesting, hospital system, malpractice suit, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, St. Thomas, fetus, sanctity of life, Kentucky Attorney General, malpractice  
•       •       •

9234 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 6:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



129 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-01-24 07:12:42 PM  

netizencain: I swear, if abortions costs $50,000 and you could bill it all to the government... every catholic hospital would be signing up for it.


No doubt Custom Italian duds and Pope Mobiles are expensive
 
2013-01-24 07:13:22 PM  

kronicfeld: GAT_00: I don't think any prosecutor wants a juror who would start a call for nullification.

Ah, yes, that thing that exists on internet comment sections and in academic journals. If you think prosecutors spend half a second of their time thinking about that, you are deluded.


Then I want to get on a jury and fark it up.  Well, if it's deserved to fark up at any rate.
 
2013-01-24 07:14:45 PM  
 
2013-01-24 07:14:50 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I sincerely hope that comes back to bite them on the ass


This.
 
2013-01-24 07:17:52 PM  
geoffreview.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-24 07:18:05 PM  
Their hypocrisy truly knows no bounds
cdn.fd.uproxx.com
Approves
 
2013-01-24 07:18:45 PM  
Dnrtfa. I assume profit prevailed over principles?
 
2013-01-24 07:19:32 PM  

kronicfeld: fusillade762: Hypocritical

You can simultaneously believe in the proper application of existing law and believe that the same existing law should be changed in some way. That is not hypocritical.


Well, in the Catholic Church's case, they very much advocate violating the law (not providing contraception coverage, etc.), as their position on the issue is essentially that God's law specifically trumps man's law on the issue of life.

That said, unless the Catholic Church is actually running the medical malpractice insurance company (which there's no indication of), then its really not up to them to determine the defense in this case. The insurance company, who would be paying out any judgment, supplies the attorneys and mounts the defense. The insured party does NOT get final say in their own defense in these cases.
 
2013-01-24 07:23:34 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

They see me pope-in', they hatin'
 
2013-01-24 07:24:44 PM  

TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.


the Church perfected beer making, wine making, and even developed the champagne cork which made it possible to bottle that stuff. They also preserved a significant portion of Classical knowledge. They also gave us catholic school girl uniforms. They really haven't done much for us lately... but not many institutions have contributed that much to mankind.
 
2013-01-24 07:26:48 PM  

ashinmytomatoes: Worst. Hypocrisy. Ever.

I am pro-choice. I admit to wavering a bit because of the problem of gender disparities caused by sex-selective abortions in some countries and the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome, a condition that is often aborted for these days, although there are no cognitive problems associated with it (the main markers are ovarian failure and short stature, i.e. I'm short and can't have kids).


I literally have a book open in front of me and was reading about Turner's Syndrome when I took a break to read this thread and saw your post. Weird.
 
2013-01-24 07:28:54 PM  

kbronsito: Mutt Farkinov: TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.

So much this. Legal precedent is already set and the hospital's lawyer motioned based on it. It's not like the hospital held a press conference to announce fetuses are no longer people. But hey, whatever gets you a green light, right, Subs?


can the lawyer file a motion like this without explaining it to his/her client and/or against the client's wishes? can the lawyer not be requested by their client to pursue another avenue of defense which may have been less effective but that avoided having to use one that is so grossly counter to catholic teaching? was there a law keeping the church from trying settling the case in order to avoid making such a motion (maybe they did try though, or the insurance company would prevent that one.).

we don't have all the facts here. but it seems that when the law was supposed to be about providing birth control to women, the catholic church threatened all manner of way to stop that, including not complying with the law in a full blown campaign of civil disobedience.  and yet it seems that here they may have too easily adhered to a legal precedent they not only consider immoral but also soul damming because it was convenient.


I admit ignorance of this particular hospital's admin system, but I would posit that they have a lawyer on retainer or staff who doesn't have the archbishop looking over his/her shoulder, but rather is expected to represent the interests of the hospital. Whatever the case, subby's article uses what is ostensibly the defense lawyer's quote, then says it was the Catholic church's idea. It's a biased, trolling article and a biased, trolling headline that mod bait for an easy green light.

/not catholic
//not like this is the first time trolling headline was approved
///subby should have also put "hot pics of mom" in he headline.
 
2013-01-24 07:29:43 PM  
Gee, it's almost like their primary concern is money and not the "sanctity of life". It's like they're aware of numbers five or something.
 
2013-01-24 07:32:07 PM  

BigLuca: ashinmytomatoes: Worst. Hypocrisy. Ever.

I am pro-choice. I admit to wavering a bit because of the problem of gender disparities caused by sex-selective abortions in some countries and the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome, a condition that is often aborted for these days, although there are no cognitive problems associated with it (the main markers are ovarian failure and short stature, i.e. I'm short and can't have kids).


I literally have a book open in front of me and was reading about Turner's Syndrome when I took a break to read this thread and saw your post. Weird.


Cool coincidence. That book is on my to-read list, definitely.
 
2013-01-24 07:33:37 PM  

fusillade762: gameshowhost: GAT_00: So, who wants to get a faux religious group up and running protesting them?  You could rake in a whole lot of money from stupid people "running" it.

I hear it's more profitable to simply get one up and running, without protesting another.

[www.able.org image 400x521]

Approves.

Watch out, though, they don't like competition.


Great audio interview here with the author of a book about those wacky Xenu-worshippers. I learned about the real appeal of the Co$ to the sincere and unsuspecting.
 
2013-01-24 07:33:58 PM  

kronicfeld: fusillade762: Hypocritical

You can simultaneously believe in the proper application of existing law and believe that the same existing law should be changed in some way. That is not hypocritical.


That's what I kind of got from the story. They have a lawyer. He pointed out what the law actually states. It doesn't mean they believe it should be that way. It is an ironic circumstance, but not a hypocritical decision (by the lawyer).
 
2013-01-24 07:34:44 PM  

Cpl.D: Gee, it's almost like their primary concern is money and not the "sanctity of life". It's like they're aware of numbers five or something.


take five

BigLuca: ashinmytomatoes: Worst. Hypocrisy. Ever.

I am pro-choice. I admit to wavering a bit because of the problem of gender disparities caused by sex-selective abortions in some countries and the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome, a condition that is often aborted for these days, although there are no cognitive problems associated with it (the main markers are ovarian failure and short stature, i.e. I'm short and can't have kids).


I literally have a book open in front of me and was reading about Turner's Syndrome when I took a break to read this thread and saw your post. Weird.


X marks the spot. of ghayness
 
2013-01-24 07:38:30 PM  

Smgth: Ok, few hate religion more then I, HOWEVER, this is not "The Catholic Church". This a 'Catholic Organization', who, like any business, will drop an pretense towards ethics like a blazing hot fetus the SECOND it might become inconvenient (read cost money).

/The Catholic Church would take AT LEAST several more seconds to throw unborn babies into the fire if it became expedient.
//They certainly had no problem consigning unbaptized babies to hell for hundreds and hundreds of years until THAT wasn't gaining them points with enough relig-idiots.


Good point
 
2013-01-24 07:39:59 PM  

ashinmytomatoes: the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome


Mild form? Either you're X0 on your 23 chromosome "pair" or not, correct? It's a binary condition as far as I know. I'm sure some of those affected aren't quite so short or have as prominent shield chest and neck webs, but are there mild forms?

No snark, genuinely curious. Got a relative with Turner's.

/I imagine I knew this at some point, but it was years ago
 
2013-01-24 07:44:29 PM  
Abortion is only wrong when someone else is doing it. Duh.
 
2013-01-24 07:44:41 PM  

fusillade762: Well, they're correct. Hypocritical, but correct.


Catholics hypocritical? Do tell!

Seriously, can we get past this whole "it's a friggin' person the second your spunk leaves your balls" and "it's a child until it stains the maxi-pad" silliness?
 
2013-01-24 07:45:29 PM  

Occam's Disposable Razor: pair" or not, correct? It's a binary condition as far as I know. I'm sure some of those affected aren't quite so short or have as prominent shield chest and neck webs, but are there mild forms?

No snark, genuinely curious. Got a relative with Turne


Well, because it is a syndrome, different people are affected differently and can have different issues. For example, I am 4'11'' and don't have any major heart or kidney issues and don't have a webbed neck. I do have hypothyroidism, which is common with Turner's, but so does every other woman in my family. I have a good friend who is only 4'7''. She doesn't have the heart issues either.
 
2013-01-24 07:45:54 PM  

Charlie Chingas: True. They are not people, but man are they tasty. A biatchewy, though. Especially the dark meat ones...


Do they taste like scrambled eggs?
 
2013-01-24 07:46:45 PM  

Fark Rye For Many Whores: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I sincerely hope that comes back to bite them on the ass

What an inhuman fetus with a biteable ass might look like:
[psychexfutureheart.files.wordpress.com image 600x800]


Are those peppermint flavored, and do they come with a little hammer? Because, seriously, I can see a new Valentine's Day tradition there...
 
2013-01-24 07:47:23 PM  

kronicfeld: Of course, the same could be said for the opposite perspective: the Catholic hospital saying, "Well, law, if you're not going to recognize this thing we believe in, then you are just going to have to live with the result coming out against you."


That doesn't sound like moral or religious conviction. It sounds like financial expedience. How about this one: "Well, of course we're against the murder of millions of innocent lives, but hey, you Nazi's are the law around here...so..."
 
2013-01-24 07:48:11 PM  
Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him. - Mark 12:17

They gave the baby back to God and kept the money for themselves.

www.explosm.net
No harm, no foul.
 
2013-01-24 07:50:15 PM  

ashinmytomatoes: Occam's Disposable Razor: pair" or not, correct? It's a binary condition as far as I know. I'm sure some of those affected aren't quite so short or have as prominent shield chest and neck webs, but are there mild forms?

No snark, genuinely curious. Got a relative with Turne

Well, because it is a syndrome, different people are affected differently and can have different issues. For example, I am 4'11'' and don't have any major heart or kidney issues and don't have a webbed neck. I do have hypothyroidism, which is common with Turner's, but so does every other woman in my family. I have a good friend who is only 4'7''. She doesn't have the heart issues either.


images1.nick.com
 
2013-01-24 07:53:39 PM  
The hospital should have followed the code of ethics from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, lawsuits be damned, and without hearing from the obstetrician. None of the Catholic institutions involved showed any serious motivation towards protecting unborn persons, going so far as to deny care to seven month old fetuses for fear of a lawsuit. However, they were so highly motivated to protect themselves and their own assets that they engaged in open hypocrisy in order to actually *avoid* valuing those lives.
 
2013-01-24 07:56:22 PM  

GAT_00: basemetal: Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.

I'll never serve on a jury because I'll question jury instructions.  Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.


I know what you mean. I've been at jury selection and I've never been picked. And it has always been the prosecutor who kicks me out.
 
2013-01-24 07:58:17 PM  

TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.


Except, you know, for the whole "trying to make those two equal" thing. Or the "refusing to obey the law when it conflicts with our private beliefs" thing.
 
2013-01-24 07:59:24 PM  

Occam's Disposable Razor: ashinmytomatoes: the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome

Mild form? Either you're X0 on your 23 chromosome "pair" or not, correct? It's a binary condition as far as I know. I'm sure some of those affected aren't quite so short or have as prominent shield chest and neck webs, but are there mild forms?

No snark, genuinely curious. Got a relative with Turner's.

/I imagine I knew this at some point, but it was years ago


I'm pretty sure you can have a partial deletion in one arm of the chromosome that is still considered Turner's.
 
2013-01-24 08:01:39 PM  

unchellmatt: Ahhhh... If there is one thing I just LOVE, it's warm smell of burning hypocrisy in the evening. "Life begins at conception! Or even before conception, so you can't even use birth control! A fetus is ALIVE and a PERSON! Oh, unless it's going to cost us money. Then, you know... fark them. Fetus isn't alive."


I'm really confused. I was told that every sperm is sacred.  What am I supposed to believe now? I really need a man in Rome to explain this to me.
 
2013-01-24 08:06:28 PM  
So, now that these statements by church lawyers and doctors are on record, can they be used in future proceedings as precedent and witness testimony when fighting for Roe v. Wade type cases?
 
2013-01-24 08:13:03 PM  
This woman was 400lbs AND a nurse. She should have known that her pregnancy was a high risk pregnancy. http://www.westword.com/2013-01-24/news/catholic-church-is-a-fetus-a-p erson/

She and her husband should have discussed the worst case scenario and possible outcomes for her and for their twins.

This isn't about the Catholic church. This is about a woman who should have known about and discussed her high risk pregnancy with her husband.
 
2013-01-24 08:14:30 PM  
A copy of this article should be posted in front of abortion clinics for all of the protesters to read. Maybe, if they still have one or two free thinking brain cells left it will give them something to think about.
 
2013-01-24 08:15:07 PM  

GAT_00: If I was asked if I would ever consider nullification, I'd have to answer yes, and I would be immediately dismissed from the panel.


Do they ask that? That would mean mentioning it, and other potential jurors might ask what "nullification" is, and then they've opened a cat of worms they would rather leave sealed.
 
2013-01-24 08:18:33 PM  

nekom: I find it hard to be outraged by this.  Just because they don't agree with the law, that's no reason not to use it to one's advantage in court.


That's what a lawyer would say. But the church should have considered what its enemies can do with this precedent.
 
2013-01-24 08:22:03 PM  

kronicfeld: ArcadianRefugee: Outraged? No. But it does show a certain lack of conviction. If you believe in something, you should believe in it even when it doesn't suit your needs. When you disregard your beliefs just because it is now working against you, that's hypocritical. Smart business sense, but hypocritical.

Of course, the same could be said for the opposite perspective: the Catholic hospital saying, "Well, law man who lost his wife and unborn children, if you're someone else is not going to recognize this thing we believe in, then you are just going to have to live with the result coming out against you."


/ftfy
 
2013-01-24 08:23:18 PM  

Crocoduck: I despise the Church as much as the next guy, but I don't see how one could sue in this case. The argument of person or no person aside, this is just an unfortunate death. The Church is not at fault here.


Of course not. If they'd actually said that, I'd have sympathy for them. But  this is disgusting, since it's the same hospital chain refusing to dispense even birth control meds. When religion starts screwing people over, the law should come down on it like a farking hammer.
 
2013-01-24 08:24:38 PM  
www.arkcode.com

What would you expect from an evil organization with a Nazi as its leader?
 
2013-01-24 08:42:10 PM  
Faith is well and good, as long as it doesn't cost us money.
 
2013-01-24 08:44:47 PM  

Zoomaster: [www.arkcode.com image 534x422]

What would you expect from an evil organization with a Nazi as its leader?


Solution: No Germans who were teenagers during the Nazi regime shall be allowed to lead an organization in their life time.
 
2013-01-24 08:49:15 PM  
I think the irony meter just exploded.

Guys, I think Rob may need an ambulance. The dial is in his eye socket.
 
2013-01-24 08:50:21 PM  

Zoomaster: [www.arkcode.com image 534x422]

What would you expect from an evil organization with a Nazi as its leader?


I'm not very strong in this area of Germany during World War II, but during the later years weren't ALL teenage boys expected to, if not forced to be part of the Hitler Youth to defend the fatherland against the Allies?
 
2013-01-24 09:03:45 PM  

Smgth: Ok, few hate religion more then I, HOWEVER, this is not "The Catholic Church". This a 'Catholic Organization', who, like any business, will drop an pretense towards ethics like a blazing hot fetus the SECOND it might become inconvenient (read cost money).

/The Catholic Church would take AT LEAST several more seconds to throw unborn babies into the fire if it became expedient.
//They certainly had no problem consigning unbaptized babies to hell for hundreds and hundreds of years until THAT wasn't gaining them points with enough relig-idiots.


So... as a 'Catholic Organization' and not the church itself, they should have no problem allowing for hormonal birth control to be covered under their employee insurance benefits. Cool.
 
2013-01-24 09:20:36 PM  

CandidCallie: This woman was 400lbs AND a nurse


I am a horrible person, I felt kind of sad until I learned she was a fat ass who would have fat ass kids
 
2013-01-24 09:23:47 PM  
I technically work for CHI, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2013-01-24 09:28:31 PM  

mgshamster: Solution: No Germans who were teenagers during the Nazi regime shall be allowed to lead an organization in their life time.


Yeah, how about we just start with "no Nazi Popes." There's almost no real Nazis left. You made one these so-evil-they-just-won't-die assholes Pope ferchrissakes?

If Jesus was real, he'd snatch up some ropes and horsewhip the religion out of ol' Ratzinger. Probably empty that Vatican Bank, too.
 
2013-01-24 09:28:45 PM  

JadedRaverLA: kronicfeld: fusillade762: Hypocritical

You can simultaneously believe in the proper application of existing law and believe that the same existing law should be changed in some way. That is not hypocritical.

Well, in the Catholic Church's case, they very much advocate violating the law (not providing contraception coverage, etc.), as their position on the issue is essentially that God's law specifically trumps man's law on the issue of life.

That said, unless the Catholic Church is actually running the medical malpractice insurance company (which there's no indication of), then its really not up to them to determine the defense in this case. The insurance company, who would be paying out any judgment, supplies the attorneys and mounts the defense. The insured party does NOT get final say in their own defense in these cases.


So, a third party malpractice insurance is able to disregard a Catholic teaching in favor of industry and legal standards, but if a third party health insurance does the same, its socialism and evil and a violation of the Churches 1st amendment right. Got it.
 
2013-01-24 09:29:14 PM  

BronyMedic: Zoomaster: [www.arkcode.com image 534x422]

What would you expect from an evil organization with a Nazi as its leader?

I'm not very strong in this area of Germany during World War II, but during the later years weren't ALL teenage boys expected to, if not forced to be part of the Hitler Youth to defend the fatherland against the Allies?


=======================

There is reason to think that Ratzinger has been less than fully candid about his past.
During much of the Nazi era, Joseph Ratzinger lived with his family in Traunstein, Germany, a small and staunchly Catholic town between Munich and Salzburg. During World War I there was a prisoner-of-war camp located here where, ironically, Adolf Hitler worked between December 1918 and March 1919. The town is located near the region of Austria which Hitler came from.
Resistance to the Nazis was dangerous and difficult, but not impossible. Elizabeth Lohner, a Traunstein resident whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, has been quoted as saying, "It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others. The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice."
A few hundred yards away from the Ratzingers' house, a family hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter who shot himself rather than be captured again. The SS regularly searched local homes for resistance members, so the Ratzingers couldn't have not known about resistance efforts.
Although many German Catholic leaders were willing to work with the Nazis, many individual Catholics and Catholic priests resisted as best they could, refusing to cooperate with a political regime they regarded as anti-Catholic at best and the embodiment of evil at worst.
Joseph Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth in 1941. Millions of Germans were in a position similar to that of Joseph Ratzinger and his family, so why spend so much time focusing on him? Because he is no longer merely Joseph Ratzinger, or even a Catholic Cardinal - he is now Pope Benedict XVI. None of the other Germans who joined the Hitler Youth, were part of the military in Nazi Germany, lived near a concentration camp, and watched Jews being rounded up for death camps has ever become pope.
The pope is supposed to be the successor of Peter, leader of the Christian Church, and symbol of unity for all Christendom. The past actions - or inactions - of such a person matter a great deal if anyone is going to treat him as any sort of moral authority.
Ratzinger's recollections of his youth in Nazi Germany makes it seem as though all the problems, violence, and hatred existed outside his local community. There is no recognition that resistance to the Nazis existed - or was needed - just outside his door.
 
Displayed 50 of 129 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report