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(The Raw Story)   Not news: Catholic hospital chain beats malpractice suit. Irony: By declaring that fetuses aren't people   (rawstory.com) divider line 129
    More: Interesting, hospital system, malpractice suit, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, St. Thomas, fetus, sanctity of life, Kentucky Attorney General, malpractice  
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9225 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 6:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 06:08:31 PM
Well, they're correct. Hypocritical, but correct.
 
2013-01-24 06:15:59 PM
I sincerely hope that comes back to bite them on the ass
 
2013-01-24 06:19:43 PM
Don't worry: by the time the next a 14-year-old rape victim comes in wanting Plan B, not only will a fetus be a person again, a potential zygote will be too.
 
2013-01-24 06:21:23 PM
So, who wants to get a faux religious group up and running protesting them?  You could rake in a whole lot of money from stupid people "running" it.
 
2013-01-24 06:26:02 PM
Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.
 
2013-01-24 06:32:52 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I sincerely hope that comes back to bite them on the ass


What an inhuman fetus with a biteable ass might look like:
psychexfutureheart.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-24 06:34:20 PM

GAT_00: So, who wants to get a faux religious group up and running protesting them?  You could rake in a whole lot of money from stupid people "running" it.


I hear it's more profitable to simply get one up and running, without protesting another.
 
2013-01-24 06:34:20 PM
so it's really not what we say, but what we do

thanks for stickin it to the man Catholics
 
2013-01-24 06:35:09 PM
This will end...poorly.
 
2013-01-24 06:35:53 PM
Meh. Call me when those hypocrites say that gay sex and child molestation is a sin when priests do it.
 
2013-01-24 06:37:19 PM
Vile, hypocritical, shameful, and contrary to the "Good News" by which they claim to live--the Catholic Church is, hopefully, in its death throes.
 
2013-01-24 06:37:28 PM

basemetal: Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.


I'll never serve on a jury because I'll question jury instructions.  Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.
 
2013-01-24 06:38:02 PM

fusillade762: Hypocritical


You can simultaneously believe in the proper application of existing law and believe that the same existing law should be changed in some way. That is not hypocritical.
 
2013-01-24 06:38:36 PM
Hell just called. They need a Zamboni.
 
2013-01-24 06:38:53 PM
Would it be in bad taste to post the "Hahaha, Oh Wow" Tin Tin guy? I really, really want to but seems a bit crass.
 
2013-01-24 06:39:43 PM
True. They are not people, but man are they tasty. A biatchewy, though. Especially the dark meat ones...
 
2013-01-24 06:39:54 PM
The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.
 
2013-01-24 06:40:52 PM

GAT_00: Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.


Yeah.....
 
2013-01-24 06:41:11 PM

TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.


what organization? homeless shelters?
 
2013-01-24 06:41:52 PM

fusillade762: Well, they're correct. Hypocritical, but correct.


theinfosphere.org
 
2013-01-24 06:41:59 PM

basemetal: GAT_00: Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.

Yeah.....


If I was asked if I would ever consider nullification, I'd have to answer yes, and I would be immediately dismissed from the panel.
 
2013-01-24 06:42:38 PM
Hard-on for money > Hard-on for kids > Hard-on for fetuses
 
2013-01-24 06:43:07 PM
There is an Ironic tag, Subby. Just so you know.
 
2013-01-24 06:44:22 PM

Fark Rye For Many Whores: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I sincerely hope that comes back to bite them on the ass

What an inhuman fetus with a biteable ass might look like:
[psychexfutureheart.files.wordpress.com image 600x800]


Do these come in chocolate?

I hate the Republican hospitals.
 
2013-01-24 06:44:35 PM

GAT_00: Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.


That's a fairly naive statement. In some jurisdictions, including mine, juries are specifically instructed not to teach their verdict based on sympathy, bias, etc. Prosecutors love jurors who assume that a defendant was charged with a crime because he is probably guilty, and that if he looks like a bad dude then he probably is. "Thinking for itself" cuts both ways.
 
2013-01-24 06:45:54 PM
I despise the Church as much as the next guy, but I don't see how one could sue in this case. The argument of person or no person aside, this is just an unfortunate death. The Church is not at fault here.
 
2013-01-24 06:47:14 PM
Ahhhh... If there is one thing I just LOVE, it's warm smell of burning hypocrisy in the evening. "Life begins at conception! Or even before conception, so you can't even use birth control! A fetus is ALIVE and a PERSON! Oh, unless it's going to cost us money. Then, you know... fark them. Fetus isn't alive."

So... so beautiful.
 
2013-01-24 06:47:56 PM

TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.


So much this. Legal precedent is already set and the hospital's lawyer motioned based on it. It's not like the hospital held a press conference to announce fetuses are no longer people. But hey, whatever gets you a green light, right, Subs?
 
2013-01-24 06:48:04 PM
I find it hard to be outraged by this.  Just because they don't agree with the law, that's no reason not to use it to one's advantage in court.
 
2013-01-24 06:52:01 PM

unchellmatt: Ahhhh... If there is one thing I just LOVE, it's warm smell of burning hypocrisy in the evening. "Life begins at conception! Or even before conception, so you can't even use birth control! A fetus is ALIVE and a PERSON! Oh, unless it's going to cost us money. Then, you know... fark them. Fetus isn't alive."

So... so beautiful.


it's like a water coloured painting. drawn by the best artist of them all, Jesnus.
 
2013-01-24 06:52:39 PM
Pelham Staples(woman's OBGYN) is the one they want, but they sue the hospital hoping for a payday. There is a double hypocrisy here in that the state(and its adherents)are calling the Catholic Church hypocrites for failing to live up to it's own standards by letting the definition of a fetus remain as a non-person when the state(and its adherents)cry foul whenever the Catholic Church tries to alter the definition(in a legal statist sense)of a fetus to a person.
 
2013-01-24 06:53:04 PM
I wonder if they even mulled this over before running with it.
 
2013-01-24 06:56:13 PM

nekom: I find it hard to be outraged by this.  Just because they don't agree with the law, that's no reason not to use it to one's advantage in court.


Outraged? No. But it does show a certain lack of conviction. If you believe in something, you should believe in it even when it doesn't suit your needs. When you disregard your beliefs just because it is now working against you, that's hypocritical. Smart business sense, but hypocritical.
 
2013-01-24 06:57:10 PM

basemetal: Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.


>>------------------------------>
*
 
2013-01-24 06:57:17 PM

basemetal: Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.


The other article I read said that the OB was on call and didn't answer his page.
 
2013-01-24 07:00:29 PM

Earguy: I wonder if they even mulled this over before running with it.


They did, it is called a cost benefit analysis
 
2013-01-24 07:00:41 PM

kronicfeld: GAT_00: Prosecution never likes a jury that thinks for itself.

That's a fairly naive statement. In some jurisdictions, including mine, juries are specifically instructed not to teach their verdict based on sympathy, bias, etc. Prosecutors love jurors who assume that a defendant was charged with a crime because he is probably guilty, and that if he looks like a bad dude then he probably is. "Thinking for itself" cuts both ways.


I don't think any prosecutor wants a juror who would start a call for nullification.
 
2013-01-24 07:01:03 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Outraged? No. But it does show a certain lack of conviction. If you believe in something, you should believe in it even when it doesn't suit your needs. When you disregard your beliefs just because it is now working against you, that's hypocritical. Smart business sense, but hypocritical.


Of course, the same could be said for the opposite perspective: the Catholic hospital saying, "Well, law, if you're not going to recognize this thing we believe in, then you are just going to have to live with the result coming out against you."
 
2013-01-24 07:01:46 PM

gameshowhost: GAT_00: So, who wants to get a faux religious group up and running protesting them?  You could rake in a whole lot of money from stupid people "running" it.

I hear it's more profitable to simply get one up and running, without protesting another.


This.

My wife won't let me start a religion even when I point out how ridiculously profitable Scientology is.

"You wanta make real money, you gotta start a religion." - L. Ron Hubbard
 
2013-01-24 07:02:12 PM
Worst. Hypocrisy. Ever.

I am pro-choice. I admit to wavering a bit because of the problem of gender disparities caused by sex-selective abortions in some countries and the fact that I have a mild form of Turner's Syndrome, a condition that is often aborted for these days, although there are no cognitive problems associated with it (the main markers are ovarian failure and short stature, i.e. I'm short and can't have kids).

However, I realize that gender selective abortions are not a problem in the United States and, as to the Turner's, I think it is best left between the mother and her Doctor. There are over 7 billion humans on this planet. I'd rather people just got "fixed" rather than abort but contraceptive failure, rape, incest, and severe birth defects happen. Women in those situations should be able to abort, if that is their decision.

I heard a quote by Robert Ingersoll on NPR (interview with Susan Jacoby, author of a new biography of him, The Great Agnostic) about how women are not truly free until they have the power to determine how many children they will have. The mother of the (prospective) child is already here, a person with a life. She takes precedent over the maybe-life.

/end soapbox
 
2013-01-24 07:03:02 PM
A chain of Catholic Hospitals has beaten a malpractice lawsuit by saying that fetuses are not equivalent to human lives. According to the Colorado Independent, in the death of a 31-year-old woman carrying twin fetuses, Catholic Health Initiatives' attorneys argued that in cases of wrongful death, the term "person" only applies to individuals born alive, and not to those who die in utero.

Lori Stodghill was seven months pregnant with twin boys on the day she died. The Independent reported that on New Year's Day 2006 in Cañon City, Colorado, Stodghill was admitted to the Emergency Room at St. Thomas More Hospital complaining of nausea, vomiting and shortness of breath. She lost consciousness as she was being wheeled into an exam room and ER staff were unable to resuscitate her.


You know, i thought that the time was here for me, when i couldn't hate on lawyers and the church anymore than i do now. But i guess i was wrong. It must be nice to point down at the masses and say shiat like "you cant use birth control..because thats MURDER OF A LIVING BEING OF GOD" , but then have your hack lawyers turn around and say that a seven month baby is a fetus. To avoid paying money in a lawsuit. You hide pedophiles that work in the church by moving them around and covering up the incidents, and paying off the victims, telling them to shut up, here is your cash. You tell people that they shouldn't use birth control, because thats a SIN, even when it prevents STD'S that cause death, and unwanted births, esp to those who cant afford another kid. You would rather see them live in abject poverty with nothing, rather than see them use common sense to control the number of kids they have. If they DO use it, you excommunicate them, and in your mind, this sends them to hell automatically. Nice. fark you too. You point fingers at homosexuals and other people who don't share your dogma and buy your bullshiat, and say they are heathens and cannot attend your church, as they are hellbound sinners. So it seems to me, that you change the rules for your own best interest. How can you say on one hand, NO ABORTIONS, and then have your scumbag hacks say that 2 7 month old babies are "fetuses" and not people yet. facepalms. Nice turn around to save your ass money. And that is what this whole thing is about isn't it? Cash, power, and control. i would rather be drug behind a truck naked over gravel before i set foot in your money grubbing idolatrous buildings. Oh, and btw, your "holy" pope is no more holy than the end of my big toe. "God" doesn't talk to him, he is just a man, spewing out the same draconian dogma that they have been vomiting on the people for centuries, and if you are stupid enough to buy his bullshiat, and be controlled by the church, you are a sad example of yet another "sheep" that is incapable of thinking for yourself, and would rather be led around by your wallet than have to think at all about what you believe, or who you're following. fark you church, you're all full of shiat, and out for NO 1.

/end rant.
 
2013-01-24 07:03:14 PM

Azlefty: Earguy: I wonder if they even mulled this over before running with it.

They did, it is called a cost benefit analysis


All of these massive faith based groups have board members... they may have started off as true believers but at the end of the day... it's a business.  And you make business decisions on financial risk.

I swear, if abortions costs $50,000 and you could bill it all to the government... every catholic hospital would be signing up for it.
 
2013-01-24 07:03:22 PM

GAT_00: I don't think any prosecutor wants a juror who would start a call for nullification.


Ah, yes, that thing that exists on internet comment sections and in academic journals. If you think prosecutors spend half a second of their time thinking about that, you are deluded.
 
2013-01-24 07:04:07 PM
Wow, I wonder if the father is going to be in church this Sunday?
 
2013-01-24 07:04:51 PM
NONONO see the lawsuit was going to COST them money.

Protesting against abortions MAKES them money.

See the difference there?
 
2013-01-24 07:08:58 PM

Mutt Farkinov: TheMysteriousStranger: The legal definition of person (which counts in a court of law) and the Catholic theology definition of a person (which count only among Catholics in their private beliefs) are two different things.

So subby, look up equivocation fallacy.

/Yes the human race would be better off without this organization, but if I would point this out if it was convenient for my side, I must do the same when it is not.

So much this. Legal precedent is already set and the hospital's lawyer motioned based on it. It's not like the hospital held a press conference to announce fetuses are no longer people. But hey, whatever gets you a green light, right, Subs?



can the lawyer file a motion like this without explaining it to his/her client and/or against the client's wishes? can the lawyer not be requested by their client to pursue another avenue of defense which may have been less effective but that avoided having to use one that is so grossly counter to catholic teaching? was there a law keeping the church from trying settling the case in order to avoid making such a motion (maybe they did try though, or the insurance company would prevent that one.).

we don't have all the facts here. but it seems that when the law was supposed to be about providing birth control to women, the catholic church threatened all manner of way to stop that, including not complying with the law in a full blown campaign of civil disobedience.  and yet it seems that here they may have too easily adhered to a legal precedent they not only consider immoral but also soul damming because it was convenient.
 
2013-01-24 07:09:44 PM

nekom: I find it hard to be outraged by this.  Just because they don't agree with the law, that's no reason not to use it to one's advantage in court.


Exactly! It's not like the church holds itself up as a moral authority or anything.
 
2013-01-24 07:11:07 PM

feffer: basemetal: Meh, I'll never serve on a jury.  Sounds like the lady died of a pulmonary embolism, the twins died because mom died (while being transported to a treatment room) , the ob doc wasn't around and out of pocket, butthe lady was already in an ER. The ob doc couldn't have gotten there fast enough to do anything anyway. Why is the ob doc at fault.  At some point the ER docs should take command of the situation, and the kids may not have made it anyway.  It's tragic, but sometimes that's not someone's fault.

The other article I read said that the OB was on call and didn't answer his page.


Was a reason given why, no cell service? Out drinking?  Just lazy?

/still didn't have much time to get to the ER once she died and those babies went brain dead
//ER Docs should have called the shots
 
2013-01-24 07:11:25 PM

gameshowhost: GAT_00: So, who wants to get a faux religious group up and running protesting them?  You could rake in a whole lot of money from stupid people "running" it.

I hear it's more profitable to simply get one up and running, without protesting another.


www.able.org

Approves.

Watch out, though, they don't like competition.
 
2013-01-24 07:11:58 PM
Not news: Catholic hospital chain beats malpractice suit. Irony: By declaring that fetuses aren't people

That's okay. Neither are Catholics.
 
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