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(ESPN)   Cam Cameron agrees that canning Cam Cameron was a "brilliant move"   (espn.go.com) divider line 28
    More: Interesting, Cam Cameron, John Harbaugh, Baltimore Ravens, Jets, Niners, offensive coordinator  
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1364 clicks; posted to Sports » on 24 Jan 2013 at 2:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 02:37:50 PM
Would you describe the move as "canny"?
 
2013-01-24 02:41:04 PM
So, his thumb went the other direction?
 
2013-01-24 02:56:31 PM
Cam's offense is working for the Ravens, while Cam is not. I hope if they win, he gets a ring, he was a part of their first 9 wins
 
2013-01-24 03:03:18 PM

Rhypskallion: Cam's offense is working for the Ravens, while Cam is not. I hope if they win, he gets a ring, he was a part of their first 9 wins


Cam was fine in designing plays. Just not calling them.
 
2013-01-24 03:11:52 PM

Rhypskallion: Cam's offense is working for the Ravens, while Cam is not. I hope if they win, he gets a ring, he was a part of their first 9 wins


Of course he will get a ring.
 
2013-01-24 03:11:55 PM
Cam Cameron's got to be one of the nicest people ever associated with pro football. I'm glad he doesn't coach the Dolphins anymore, though.
 
2013-01-24 03:31:14 PM

keypusher: Cam Cameron's got to be one of the nicest people ever associated with pro football. I'm glad he doesn't coach the Dolphins anymore, though.


He reminds me of Norv. He has a better reputation as a person than as a coach.
 
2013-01-24 04:09:52 PM

davidphogan: keypusher: Cam Cameron's got to be one of the nicest people ever associated with pro football. I'm glad he doesn't coach the Dolphins anymore, though.

He reminds me of Norv. He has a better reputation as a person than as a coach.


I still don't get why Indiana fired him. You're INDIANA. You're not going to start winning Rose Bowls after just a few years of a new coach. Give him time.

/Probably shouldn't have messed with the helmet logo, though.
 
2013-01-24 04:12:13 PM
He's very impressed with this Ray Rice fellow they seemed to have picked up since his firing.
 
2013-01-24 04:31:16 PM

4NSpy: He's very impressed with this Ray Rice fellow they seemed to have picked up since his firing.


He's also not sure when or how it became legal to have Flacco move in the pocket, but thinks it works pretty well.

Also - amazed passes in the MIDDLE OF THE FIELD!?! Insanity!
 
2013-01-24 04:41:43 PM
He was great at drawing up plays, but crappy at calling said plays.
 
2013-01-24 04:42:31 PM

degenerate-afro: Rhypskallion: Cam's offense is working for the Ravens, while Cam is not. I hope if they win, he gets a ring, he was a part of their first 9 wins

Cam was fine in designing plays. Just not calling them.


oels.byu.edu
 
2013-01-24 06:23:53 PM

keypusher: Cam Cameron's got to be one of the nicest people ever associated with pro football. I'm glad he doesn't coach the Dolphins anymore, though.


I don't know that Cameron was ever a good coach, but he certainly didn't have the personel to make much of anything happen. Beck was a total bust, Ginn was a bust, and even if they had a perfect draft he still would have ended up with no more than 3 wins.
 
2013-01-24 07:07:31 PM

MayoSlather: I don't know that Cameron was ever a good coach, but he certainly didn't have the personel to make much of anything happen. Beck was a total bust, Ginn was a bust, and even if they had a perfect draft he still would have ended up with no more than 3 wins.


It's funny you say that since they went 11-5 in 2008.
 
2013-01-24 07:46:34 PM

degenerate-afro: MayoSlather: I don't know that Cameron was ever a good coach, but he certainly didn't have the personel to make much of anything happen. Beck was a total bust, Ginn was a bust, and even if they had a perfect draft he still would have ended up with no more than 3 wins.

It's funny you say that since they went 11-5 in 2008.


Pretty huge difference at QB: Pennington (who played all 16 games, miraculously) v. Lemon/Beck. Also we had Ronnie and Ricky all year in 2008. But yeah, hard not to lay some of the blame for 2007 at Cam's feet.

pro football reference
 
2013-01-24 08:44:19 PM

keypusher: degenerate-afro: MayoSlather: I don't know that Cameron was ever a good coach, but he certainly didn't have the personel to make much of anything happen. Beck was a total bust, Ginn was a bust, and even if they had a perfect draft he still would have ended up with no more than 3 wins.

It's funny you say that since they went 11-5 in 2008.

Pretty huge difference at QB: Pennington (who played all 16 games, miraculously) v. Lemon/Beck. Also we had Ronnie and Ricky all year in 2008. But yeah, hard not to lay some of the blame for 2007 at Cam's feet.

pro football reference


Also, people really seem to ignore this, but for around 2007-2011, virtually everyone who increased their record significantly did so by going from facing any set of divisions to facing the NFC and/or AFC West. In 2008, Miami played both. They went 7-1 against the Wests and 4-4 against everyone else. Not to mention the Patriots lost Brady that year and the Jets had Favre when he went into "oh I'm injured but I'm going to keep playing and f*cking my team over because I HAVE A STREAK DAMMIT!" mode. So that's another two wins (early win against Cassel, late win against injured Favre.

Basically 2007 was "everything that can go wrong goes wrong for the Dolphins" and 2008 was "everything that can go right for the Dolphins goes right."
 
2013-01-24 08:51:42 PM
AFC East

2007 wins: 16, 7, 4, 1 = 28
2008 wins: 11, 11, 9, 7 = 38
2009 wins: 10, 9, 7, 6 = 32

Guess which of those years they caught the down AFC/NFC Wests?

/oddity: apparently the Bengals did get better each year they faced one of the West divisions (7-9, 10-6) vs others (4-11-1, 4-12), but it's not because they faced the West, as they went 1-3 each year against the division they were matched up against
 
2013-01-24 09:33:58 PM
Should've used "concurs."
 
2013-01-25 09:07:29 AM

IAmRight: Basically 2007 was "everything that can go wrong goes wrong for the Dolphins" and 2008 was "everything that can go right for the Dolphins goes right."


This is true, but it did get dull calling every single offensive play right before Cam did.
 
2013-01-25 09:12:24 AM
Cam comes from the school of Norm. Norm comes from the school of Marty. Marty has created his own school called Marty ball.

Playing not to lose will get you beat 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Herm Edwards is another example, but never broke free of it
Tony Dungy was another example in Tampa, but broke free of Marty ball in Indy. Bill Cowher was another good example, after ten years of Marty ball not working he opened up the offense and won a Superbowl for Pitt.

/feel bad for Cleveland, Marty ball has come full circle. It is back home where it all started.
 
2013-01-25 09:17:55 AM

macadamnut: This is true, but it did get dull calling every single offensive play right before Cam did.


Oh yeah, I'm not saying Cam is good, I'm just saying that acting as though the difference was simply the coach is ridiculous.

/I have to go back and point this out often for people when they look at team's improvements in that timeframe - virtually every single time it's a result of going from playing other divisions to playing the Wests or vice-versa
//other example is the Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers thing - people pretend that the Packers got that much worse in Rodgers' first season than they were with Favre - nope, just went from playing the Wests to playing other divisions. And Favre went from playing the Wests to...playing the Wests with the Jets
///though oddly Favre only went 3-5 against the Wests, so I can't really credit their turnaround to that
////much as healthy Pennington was an upgrade over injured awful QBs, healthy Favre was an improvement over injured Pennington and other awful QBs
 
2013-01-25 09:19:57 AM
So it was a good move because it got everyone ELSE to stop sucking.

Right, Cam. Enjoy the show from your living room like the rest of us.
 
2013-01-25 09:43:39 AM

ltdanman44: Cam comes from the school of Norm. Norm comes from the school of Marty. Marty has created his own school called Marty ball.

Playing not to lose will get you beat 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Herm Edwards is another example, but never broke free of it
Tony Dungy was another example in Tampa, but broke free of Marty ball in Indy. Bill Cowher was another good example, after ten years of Marty ball not working he opened up the offense and won a Superbowl for Pitt.

/feel bad for Cleveland, Marty ball has come full circle. It is back home where it all started.



Marty gets a bad rap, but after Saban came & went I was hoping Miami would go after Schottenheimer instead of the guy who had just blown the AFC championship for him.

The critique against Marty was that he got too conservative in the playoffs. What always jumped out at me was that he always got to the playoffs. He rebuilt the Bowns, Chiefs, and Chargers from complete garbage into very consistent contenders in very little time, and would have done with the Redskins if Snyder had wanted a winning team.

When he took over the '84 Browns they were what, 1-8? Two years later the refs had to bend over backwards to get Elway past them and into the SB.

So whatever his faults, you might have to wonder whether Schottenheimer has some understanding of football talent and organization that Cameron, Saban, Sparano, Rex Ryan, and such conspicuously lack.
 
2013-01-25 10:59:50 AM

macadamnut: Two years later the refs had to bend over backwards to get Elway past them and into the SB.


Are you suggesting referees determined the outcome of the 1986 AFC championship game and not the Browns defense?


Elway converting a 3 and 18 is inexcusable. They should have been blitzing there, instead they played Marty ball and dropped 8 in a prevent defense. Elway had all day to find Mark Jackson on a 20 yard pass.

Everyone hails Elway as a hero driving them 98 yards. But that drive had more to do with the Browns Defense playing soft than anything else. This is typical of a Marty Ball defense at work. Hoping the offense will make a mistake instead of attacking with the defense for fear of a big play.
 
2013-01-25 11:13:40 AM

ltdanman44: macadamnut: Two years later the refs had to bend over backwards to get Elway past them and into the SB.

Are you suggesting referees determined the outcome of the 1986 AFC championship game and not the Browns defense?


Elway converting a 3 and 18 is inexcusable. They should have been blitzing there, instead they played Marty ball and dropped 8 in a prevent defense. Elway had all day to find Mark Jackson on a 20 yard pass.

Everyone hails Elway as a hero driving them 98 yards. But that drive had more to do with the Browns Defense playing soft than anything else. This is typical of a Marty Ball defense at work. Hoping the offense will make a mistake instead of attacking with the defense for fear of a big play.



You do make a valid point, and it has been a long time, and I would like to watch that game again, but I know at the time my impression of it was all about crucial phantom encroachment penalties that kept the drive going down in the red zone.

/not a Browns fan at all
//to be fair, I've always hated Elway
///and on any given Sunday in 1986 I was probably stoned
 
2013-01-25 02:00:28 PM

ltdanman44: Cam comes from the school of Norm. Norm comes from the school of Marty. Marty has created his own school called Marty ball.

Playing not to lose will get you beat 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Herm Edwards is another example, but never broke free of it
Tony Dungy was another example in Tampa, but broke free of Marty ball in Indy. Bill Cowher was another good example, after ten years of Marty ball not working he opened up the offense and won a Superbowl for Pitt.

/feel bad for Cleveland, Marty ball has come full circle. It is back home where it all started.


Norm? Who is Norm? Norm Van Brocklin was out of coaching way before Cam Cameron's time.

Cameron's offense is the evolution of the Air Coryell offense that started in San Diego in the 70s. Joe Gibbs took it to Washington and added power running (adopting to his personnel). Ernie Zampese. took it to Dallas. Ernie Zampese taught Norv Turner the offense, and Cameron learned it from Turner. The Coryell offense evolutions have won at least 6 superbowls, and lost at least 2. Mike Martz also learned this offense from Turner. Marty Schottenheimer never used this offense until he hired Cameron in San Diego, preferring more conservative methods earlier in his career. Turner is a brilliant playcaller, he never worked for Marty, or with Marty. He replaced Marty in San Diego. Schottenheimer replaced him in Washington a few years earlier. Al Saunders runs a variation of the Coryell system too.

This offense has never been in Cleveland, except on the visitors side.

When you say Martyball, I assume you mean: 'Run run pass punt'. We all hate that, unless it's the other team doing it, or unless it's working (zero or few punts). That's something teams are forced into, often by bad offensive line play. 'Run run pass punt' is much better than 'Inc Inc Sack Punt', 'sack sack inc punt' or 'Inc Sack turnover'.

If the personnel are great, it's awesome (90s Cowboys, Greatest Rams on Turf). if the personnel are mediocre, it's bad (90s Washington, recent Chargers). If the personnel are above average, than it's up and down (00s Chiefs). If the Browns can actually build a superior roster, it could work.
 
2013-01-25 05:25:17 PM

Rhypskallion: Norm? Who is Norm?


I ment norv turner....
 
2013-01-26 07:11:16 AM

degenerate-afro: MayoSlather: I don't know that Cameron was ever a good coach, but he certainly didn't have the personel to make much of anything happen. Beck was a total bust, Ginn was a bust, and even if they had a perfect draft he still would have ended up with no more than 3 wins.

It's funny you say that since they went 11-5 in 2008.


Yeah, but there were numerous factors to that fluke of a season. They had a cake schedule for one. Number two Brady was injured that allowing the Dolphins to get a meaningful win against the Pats for once. The addition of Chad Pennington who had a great season, they had Ricky Williams back and contributing, and they managed to avoid significant injuries over most of the season.

Hard to argue that season wasn't a fluke considering what followed after.
 
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