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(Forbes)   Bob Lutz writes article on why he fixed Fisker's design for them   (forbes.com) divider line 41
    More: Spiffy, Fisker, gasoline engines, Fisker Karma, Chevrolet Volt, plug-in hybrids, sedans  
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2961 clicks; posted to Business » on 24 Jan 2013 at 3:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 02:22:43 PM  
He's cutting out the best part.

www.shoppingblog.com
 
2013-01-24 03:21:14 PM  
After a few dozen sales to Hollywood enviro-stars, reality sets in: the vast majority of high-end luxury sedan buyers want V-8 power. Fisker, electric with a small gasoline-engine generator, had effectively addressed only a sliver of the potential market for his magnificent car.

Lutz is cool and all but this is farking idiotic. The stock Fisker Karma has something around 400 horsepower, which even in this day and age is "V-8 power".
 
2013-01-24 04:03:12 PM  

Jackson Herring: After a few dozen sales to Hollywood enviro-stars, reality sets in: the vast majority of high-end luxury sedan buyers want V-8 power. Fisker, electric with a small gasoline-engine generator, had effectively addressed only a sliver of the potential market for his magnificent car.

Lutz is cool and all but this is farking idiotic. The stock Fisker Karma has something around 400 horsepower, which even in this day and age is "V-8 power".


Yes but did you read the whole thing? By taking out the 1400 pounds of batter you actually have a supercar from a performance perspective. He's building a 4 door Vette supercar. There is, has been, and always will be a market for that kind of excess.
 
2013-01-24 04:09:08 PM  
Bob Lutz? Let me guess, add a V-12 that gets 8 mpg, 3000lb towing capactiy, 33 inch tires and a truck bed?

Haven't read the article yet but this is the same guy who, while at GM denied global warming and said any minute gas prices were going to plummet and GM should just double down on Trucks and SUV's
 
2013-01-24 04:09:13 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: He's cutting out the best part.


ICWYDT

. The article is self promoting cliche and cultural marginalizing trollery. And from the midwest! Who knew bigotry could be a useful marketing tool?! Besides just about every Michigan Republican organizer, George Wallace, Wisconsin GOPrs und alles. Am I leaving anyone out?

Great for Lutz and anybody that buys the car though, so there's that...
 
2013-01-24 04:10:26 PM  
"I love the styling, which is why I bought it. Gawd, I wish it had a big V-8 under the hood. I could care less about that electric drive."

static2.businessinsider.com
 
2013-01-24 04:24:43 PM  
So they turned it into a CTS-V basically. That's cool and all Bob, but the Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi already play in that pond. Bob is cool, he was a big mover in making the CTS-V happen and it was a blast designing that car, but he is a bit one trick in that he floats from company to company making supercars.

If you want to turn the performance world on its head, make the Fisker idea work. Full on instant torque thanks to the electric motor and then a nice beefy gas engine to ensure the car accelerates cleanly up to 200 mph.

Personally I find myself wondering if the way to do it for the first generation is to just ditch the majority of the batteries. One electric motor on each wheel for AWD. Have the batteries or a capacitor to store enough energy to power the generation for the few seconds it takes a direct injected V6 or V8 to reach full output. After that power the electric motors solely by converting the gasoline engine's power to electric current.

Get that much of the vehicle up and working for generation one and put up some performance results, race it, etc. Meanwhile use the money from sales to work on lighter and cheaper batteries. There is so much performance engineering you could do just by having an AWD rig where each wheel can hit max torque instantly. For now focus on tuning the hell out of the car, worry about the batteries once the battery technology has gotten better.

/plus you can work on making the electric motors and generator weigh less to help with performance as well
 
2013-01-24 04:49:43 PM  
So does his company get to keep the tax credits?
 
2013-01-24 04:49:48 PM  

brandent: By taking out the 1400 pounds of batter


Sounds like what one of my old GFs did to me.

Over time, of course.
 
2013-01-24 04:51:03 PM  
I've been a fan of the Fisker Karma for quite a while, and I'm very happy to see this variant.

Buy the eco-friendly Karma, or buy the pavement-wrinkling Destino - either way, have fun!
 
2013-01-24 04:52:19 PM  

Jackson Herring: After a few dozen sales to Hollywood enviro-stars, reality sets in: the vast majority of high-end luxury sedan buyers want V-8 power. Fisker, electric with a small gasoline-engine generator, had effectively addressed only a sliver of the potential market for his magnificent car.

Lutz is cool and all but this is farking idiotic. The stock Fisker Karma has something around 400 horsepower, which even in this day and age is "V-8 power".


The bigger problem is the weight of the battery.

The Karma weighs over 5000lbs, the Destino around 3750. That's a huge weight reduction, based simply on dumping the battery.
 
2013-01-24 04:58:45 PM  

ha-ha-guy: /plus you can work on making the electric motors and generator weigh less to help with performance as well


I agree. This car manufacturer all or nothing mindset is getting old. But people are stupid. Look at the BMW Activehybrids, I think it's a great idea, similar to yours, but some folks seem confused about them. Maybe take the hybrid branding out of their names?
 
RJB
2013-01-24 05:00:21 PM  

rtaylor92: Bob Lutz? Let me guess, add a V-12 that gets 8 mpg, 3000lb towing capactiy, 33 inch tires and a truck bed?

Haven't read the article yet but this is the same guy who, while at GM denied global warming and said any minute gas prices were going to plummet and GM should just double down on Trucks and SUV's


If you're interested, which it sounds like you are, his book Car Guys vs. Bean Counters from a couple years ago was a really interesting insider view of GM's problems. They knew they were falling behind, and they brought him in to turn things around. His stories are really enlightening: GM's designers ignored market research reports, arrogantly assuming they knew what consumers wanted better than consumers did, which led to memorable design failures like the Aztek and Envoy XUV. GM's parts suppliers would ignore orders that demanded higher quality, as they knew whatever crap they gave, GM would use. Of course the account is biased, but it takes a long time to change such a culture of failure.

To your point, yes, in the 2000s, trucks sold well, and GM sold their share. But Lutz has long advocated electric cars, higher efficiency, and - uniquely among auto executives - higher gas taxes. He started his career at Ford in Europe and saw the good smaller-car designs and high-quality infrastructure that gas taxes led to. He skewers CAFE rules in the US.

Overall, he may be a lot of bluster, but he knows what consumers want, and he finds ways to deliver it.
 
2013-01-24 05:09:36 PM  
Make them all, the the market sort out the winners
 
2013-01-24 05:10:31 PM  
Walking near Ann Arbor's airport, I know when he's going for a flight. (He's got a jet fighter trainer. Not subtle at a general-aviation airport.)
 
2013-01-24 05:13:36 PM  

midigod: brandent: By taking out the 1400 pounds of batter

Sounds like what one of my old GFs did to me.

Over time, of course.


ok BATTERY. Or is that what you did to her?
 
2013-01-24 05:25:07 PM  

rtaylor92: Bob Lutz? Let me guess, add a V-12 that gets 8 mpg, 3000lb towing capactiy, 33 inch tires and a truck bed?

Haven't read the article yet but this is the same guy who, while at GM denied global warming and said any minute gas prices were going to plummet and GM should just double down on Trucks and SUV's


But then he changed his mind. PBS had an excellent documentary where he has now completely shifted gears. He's a big champion of electric cars now and changed positions on global warming.
 
2013-01-24 05:30:38 PM  
FTFA: I've regularly heard this refrain from affluent customers who had succumbed to the aesthetic lure of the Karma, arguably the prettiest 4-door sedan ever

If he thinks the Fisker is pretty, it's no wonder GM builds such ugly assed cars.
 
2013-01-24 05:45:30 PM  
Ok. Every car he does this with is another sale Fisker can use to keep making plug-in series hybrids.
 
2013-01-24 06:11:53 PM  
I'f rather drive an electric Humvee than I would a gas powered Fisker.
 
2013-01-24 06:34:44 PM  
So let me get this straight: His answer to 'Why are you putting a gas-guzzling engine into what is supposed to be an electric, earth-friendly vehicle?' is 'Because we think it is going to make us a shiatload of money.'?
 
2013-01-24 06:42:10 PM  

brandent: rtaylor92: Bob Lutz? Let me guess, add a V-12 that gets 8 mpg, 3000lb towing capactiy, 33 inch tires and a truck bed?

Haven't read the article yet but this is the same guy who, while at GM denied global warming and said any minute gas prices were going to plummet and GM should just double down on Trucks and SUV's

But then he changed his mind. PBS had an excellent documentary where he has now completely shifted gears. He's a big champion of electric cars now and changed positions on global warming.


Really? Please enlighten me. All my googling just brings up the same old "Bob Lutz says global warming is a crock of shiat" and similar anti-hybrid quotes.
 
2013-01-24 07:10:14 PM  
Soooo.... basically Bob Lutz is too stupid to buy a car he actually wants? Is that the "point" of this retarded, meandering article?

I never thought Bob Lutz was terribly bright to begin with and the disastrous collapse of GM in 2008 offered a hell of a lot of evidence, but this pretty well confirmed my suspicions for good.

/ I consider the Monaro/GTO and Cadillac 16 concept his "stopped watch" moments.
 
2013-01-24 07:33:04 PM  

Alphakronik: I'f rather drive an electric Humvee than I would a gas powered Fisker.


Maybe you can buy the electric systems he takes out of the Fiskers, some Humvees and start your own car company.
 
2013-01-24 09:27:34 PM  

ha-ha-guy: /plus you can work on making the electric motors and generator weigh less to help with performance as well


The motors and generators aren't nearly as heavy as the battery.  The problem is that without some kind of battery you'll be wasting energy for no good reason.  If you have an engine and a generator big enough to provide for heavy acceleration then you end up with an electric vehicle that sucks up as much gas as a regular car but with extra weight.  Use a battery to store energy for when you really need it and you can get away with a much smaller gasoline powerplant, which is the whole idea to begin with.
 
2013-01-24 09:30:06 PM  
www.ksitetv.com

Cameron: Hey, a hybrid? What happened to your gas guzzler?
Dutch: Going green, Broheim. Yeah, I saw this intense movie about how we're killing our planet.
Cameron: "An Inconvenient Truth."
Dutch: "Water World." Yeah, the great Kevin Costner plays this fish dude. Really opened my eyes. So... I bought this puppy. Then I ripped out all that electric crap, dropped in an ass-ton of ponies. Well, I got a Michael Bolton. Giddyap!
 
2013-01-24 09:33:26 PM  
Obviously...

He did it for the lutz.
 
2013-01-24 10:05:59 PM  

ha-ha-guy: So they turned it into a CTS-V basically. That's cool and all Bob, but the Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi already play in that pond.


this is not in that pond.

this is aimed at the Aston Martin Rapide, Mercedes S-Class AMG, Porsche Panamera Turbo S, and Bentley Continental sedan.
 
2013-01-24 10:06:07 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Walking near Ann Arbor's airport, I know when he's going for a flight. (He's got a jet fighter trainer. Not subtle at a general-aviation airport.)


That being said, Lutz was a fighter pilot for the USMC...a trainer is a pretty big step down for him.
 
2013-01-24 10:45:58 PM  
Give me the same amount of money , and I will convert the Fisker to an electric only version that will beat the holy living shiat out of his prissy little corvette engine.
 
2013-01-24 11:38:28 PM  

dumbobruni: ha-ha-guy: So they turned it into a CTS-V basically. That's cool and all Bob, but the Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi already play in that pond.

this is not in that pond.

this is aimed at the Aston Martin Rapide, Mercedes S-Class AMG, Porsche Panamera Turbo S, and Bentley Continental sedan.


Exactly. He basically said 'hey they built $180,000 car except it's a brick and they only charge $100,000 for it, how about we change that'. He never claimed it would have mass appeal. Just appeal to people with ridiculous amounts of money who want unreasonable amounts of power. And in the end if Fisker can sell a few hundred shells to him, then that helps bring the Fisker back to life too.
 
2013-01-24 11:47:39 PM  

brandent: dumbobruni: ha-ha-guy: So they turned it into a CTS-V basically. That's cool and all Bob, but the Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi already play in that pond.

this is not in that pond.

this is aimed at the Aston Martin Rapide, Mercedes S-Class AMG, Porsche Panamera Turbo S, and Bentley Continental sedan.

Exactly. He basically said 'hey they built $180,000 car except it's a brick and they only charge $100,000 for it, how about we change that'. He never claimed it would have mass appeal. Just appeal to people with ridiculous amounts of money who want unreasonable amounts of power. And in the end if Fisker can sell a few hundred shells to him, then that helps bring the Fisker back to life too.


Yeah might as well complain about Hennessey building the Venom out of a Lotus.
 
2013-01-25 06:06:22 AM  
The car is too pretty to be a hybrid? What?
 
2013-01-25 06:53:47 AM  
www.itatennis.com

Lutz old school (obscure?)
 
2013-01-25 07:17:30 AM  

Hollie Maea: Give me the same amount of money , and I will convert the Fisker to an electric only version that will beat the holy living shiat out of his prissy little corvette engine.


I'm sure you will. Now you calm down and take a seat over there, the doctors will be with you in a moment.
 
2013-01-25 07:21:41 AM  
That's some high-end douchebaggery.
 
2013-01-25 08:24:11 AM  
The Karma doesn't need any help in being hotter than it is. Like on fire hot though.
 
2013-01-25 08:59:50 AM  

RJB: rtaylor92: Bob Lutz? Let me guess, add a V-12 that gets 8 mpg, 3000lb towing capactiy, 33 inch tires and a truck bed?

Haven't read the article yet but this is the same guy who, while at GM denied global warming and said any minute gas prices were going to plummet and GM should just double down on Trucks and SUV's

If you're interested, which it sounds like you are, his book Car Guys vs. Bean Counters from a couple years ago was a really interesting insider view of GM's problems. They knew they were falling behind, and they brought him in to turn things around. His stories are really enlightening: GM's designers ignored market research reports, arrogantly assuming they knew what consumers wanted better than consumers did, which led to memorable design failures like the Aztek and Envoy XUV. GM's parts suppliers would ignore orders that demanded higher quality, as they knew whatever crap they gave, GM would use. Of course the account is biased, but it takes a long time to change such a culture of failure.

To your point, yes, in the 2000s, trucks sold well, and GM sold their share. But Lutz has long advocated electric cars, higher efficiency, and - uniquely among auto executives - higher gas taxes. He started his career at Ford in Europe and saw the good smaller-car designs and high-quality infrastructure that gas taxes led to. He skewers CAFE rules in the US.

Overall, he may be a lot of bluster, but he knows what consumers want, and he finds ways to deliver it.


That sounds like a pretty big whitewash of his influence at GM. I remember a 60 minutes interview with the guy around 2006-2007 where he just kept insisting the future was in trucks and Hummers. The fact that GM needed to be bailed out and they had to run an ad campaign shortly after he left that basically said "sorry we f'd up America" is pretty damning of his legacy, despite what story he wants to tell.
 
2013-01-25 09:22:53 AM  

jaybeezey: Hollie Maea: Give me the same amount of money , and I will convert the Fisker to an electric only version that will beat the holy living shiat out of his prissy little corvette engine.

I'm sure you will. Now you calm down and take a seat over there, the doctors will be with you in a moment.


Seriously, it wouldn't be hard. String together four warp9 motors that can be switched series to parallel. Control with dual Zilla2k controllers, and a 35kwh lithium polymer pack. 1500hp, with three electric "gear" settings. The hardest part would be finding a driveshaft that wouldn't snap like a toothpick and tires that wouldn't vaporize.
 
2013-01-25 09:52:06 AM  
Here's a local guy with half the setup I described going against a Dodge Challenger with a nitrous kit. Link

But yeah, I'm the crazy one, not the guy raving about "tofu eaters".
 
2013-01-25 02:26:26 PM  
i didnt think Lutz had a car.

static.tvfanatic.com
 
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