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(ABC Local)   Another stunning revelation from the Romero Institute: All-electric vehicles do not need gasoline   (abclocal.go.com) divider line 87
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2563 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 12:44 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 02:25:08 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Land Ark: It's only a problem if lots folks set up fast-charge stations in their homes. Directly plugging in your car to the wall is unnoticable load.
The fast chargers though have much more demand.

We, or I should say my company at least, generally assumes fast charge is the only way they'll ever catch on as anything other than a glorified golf cart that is a third vehicle. Our metric is it needs to fully recharge in the time it takes the average family to eat dinner. So you drive home, plug it in, eat dinner and it is ready for whatever errands you want to run that night or whatever else you had planned.


The 2013 LEAF has an onboard 6.6kw level 2 charger - when charging it takes about the same load as your typical clothes dryer. It'll add roughly 25 miles of range for every hour of charging, and fully charge in 4 hours.
 
2013-01-24 02:32:52 PM  

MrSteve007: ha-ha-guy: Land Ark: It's only a problem if lots folks set up fast-charge stations in their homes. Directly plugging in your car to the wall is unnoticable load.
The fast chargers though have much more demand.

We, or I should say my company at least, generally assumes fast charge is the only way they'll ever catch on as anything other than a glorified golf cart that is a third vehicle. Our metric is it needs to fully recharge in the time it takes the average family to eat dinner. So you drive home, plug it in, eat dinner and it is ready for whatever errands you want to run that night or whatever else you had planned.

The 2013 LEAF has an onboard 6.6kw level 2 charger - when charging it takes about the same load as your typical clothes dryer. It'll add roughly 25 miles of range for every hour of charging, and fully charge in 4 hours.


Yes, but we're looking at deploying chargers that go up to 50kW. Although the 400V ones that did 50kw would likely be at commercial charging stations, not home use. The goal is to get it well below 4 hours and that means we'll be pulling a lot more. The Volt also has a 4 hour turn around time on a fast charger, but the next gen is already going to be more powerful (and appearing in Asian/European countries that have more updated grids).
 
2013-01-24 02:44:29 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.


that's the joke.jpg
 
2013-01-24 02:45:03 PM  
I too would be enamored of a horseless carriage, but I fear they shall never be nought but a rich man's toy at such a staggering sum of $1,000. No, my trusty piebald steed will carry me just fine, and without needing to stop and refuel so often. Besides, the local buggy whip manufacturer says that a surcharge increase would be needed if these contraptions become more populous.
 
2013-01-24 02:46:48 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Yes, but we're looking at deploying chargers that go up to 50kW. Although the 400V ones that did 50kw would likely be at commercial charging stations, not home use. The goal is to get it well below 4 hours and that means we'll be pulling a lot more. The Volt also has a 4 hour turn around time on a fast charger, but the next gen is already going to be more powerful (and appearing in Asian/European countries that have more updated grids).


Yeah, somehow I don't foresee $100k 3-phase 480v industrial chargers becoming the norm for home use.

I find it funny that people think that we're going to need fast chargers everywhere, including at home. If you told people that you had a special cord that would refill their cars, so they had full gas tanks every morning, for 1/10th the cost of gas stations, 95% of drivers would say "Wow, I'll never need to go to a gas station again!." Then when you told them that their cars would get topped off with gas when they parked at work or went shopping, 99% of drivers would say that it sounds like a great plan to them.

/has been fine with using only a meager 1,400 watt "trickle charger" for the past 3 weeks.
//110v outlets are damned near everywhere - especially on light poles.
 
2013-01-24 02:55:50 PM  

Smidge204: silverjets: Power grid and infrastructure problems aside I'm left wondering how do pure EVs provide heat into the cabin of the car during the winter?

Can't speak for any others, but the MY2011 and MY2012 Nissan LEAF had simple resistive heaters. Using the heater has a significant impact on range. MY2013 has a heat pump heating system (with a resistive heater backup) which consumes less power for the same heat delivered.


The LEAF also has heated seats and steering wheel to help keep the driver comfortable without fully heating the entire cabin. Pre-heating (running the heater while still plugged in) is also possible and can be controlled remotely... so 10 minutes before you need to leave, use your smartphone to turn on the heat so it's nice and warm before you unplug.


StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.

Well, that's not true now and I doubt it ever was. Even at its worst the official L2 unit from Nissan was ~$2000 including installation. If you're smart you can send in the L1 charger included with the vehicle for an upgrade for ~$250 and install an appropriate plug where you plan to charge.

I bet whoever was trying to sell you a $3500 charger plus installation probably offered you a great deal on the undercoating too.
=Smidge=


$3500 may be high, but $2500 was more realistic before the rebates that brought the price way down. I've read that you can buy a charger from Lowe's for $1000
 
2013-01-24 02:58:02 PM  

MrSteve007: 18 mpg


Well, there's your problem. What the hell were you driving before the Leaf?!
 
2013-01-24 03:02:51 PM  

MrSteve007: Yeah, somehow I don't foresee $100k 3-phase 480v industrial chargers becoming the norm for home use.


Prices drop as you master a technology and produce it in bulk. If we reach a point where we can sell you a Volt and a charger that does a full charge in 75 minutes for the same price as a Toyota with a charger that takes 4 hours, we're going to get more sales due to the fact we offer more for the same price. If the reverse happens, Toyota eats our lunch. It might take ten years, but one day you'll have that in your garage.

/or simply having an affordable two hour charger we can sell as an add on will give us another source of income
 
2013-01-24 03:05:24 PM  

Wadded Beef: I would love an electric car, but can one be priced reasonably to the point where it doesn't take 125 years of driving it to offset the high markup with gasoline savings? And would my electric bill skyrocket due constantly recharging it?


I recently bought a new electric car. The payments are less than what I was spending on gas. Granted, I got a pretty good deal ($8500 after tax rebate). Charging it is pretty cheap (about 2.5 cents per mile). I charge it quite often at the free charger across the road, though.
 
2013-01-24 03:08:24 PM  
Duh, they run on "clean" coal
 
2013-01-24 03:09:38 PM  

StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.


Bullshiat. You can get a level 2 charger from farking Amazon for $900 bucks.
 
2013-01-24 03:16:37 PM  

Oldiron_79: Duh, they run on "clean" coal


Coal is not the least bit clean. But an electric vehicle running off of 100% coal generated electricity is still far cleaner than a gas powered car.
 
2013-01-24 03:17:00 PM  

Hollie Maea: StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.

Bullshiat. You can get a level 2 charger from farking Amazon for $900 bucks.


But what if I don't want to fark Amazon?
 
2013-01-24 03:19:45 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Hollie Maea: StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.

Bullshiat. You can get a level 2 charger from farking Amazon for $900 bucks.

But what if I don't want to fark Amazon?


Everyone wants to fark Amazon.
 
2013-01-24 03:29:18 PM  

Hollie Maea: Everyone wants to fark Amazon.


3.bp.blogspot.com
Damned skippy.
 
2013-01-24 03:54:04 PM  
When they can develop an electric that I can drive from coast to coast (without needing to stop for a recharge any longer, or more often than it takes to refill a gas tank,) I'll buy one.

A pitiful 80 mile range and a 4 hour charge? No thanks.
 
2013-01-24 04:06:29 PM  

MylesHeartVodak: When they can develop an electric that I can drive from coast to coast (without needing to stop for a recharge any longer, or more often than it takes to refill a gas tank,) I'll buy one.


How often do you drive cross-country without stopping for sleep, eating or bathroom breaks?
=Smidge=
 
2013-01-24 04:15:53 PM  

Smidge204: MylesHeartVodak: When they can develop an electric that I can drive from coast to coast (without needing to stop for a recharge any longer, or more often than it takes to refill a gas tank,) I'll buy one.

How often do you drive cross-country without stopping for sleep, eating or bathroom breaks?
=Smidge=


I mean in the same way I do it for a vacation, normally - If I had to stop every 80 miles for a four hour break, it's not feasible. If they could give me 200-300 miles that could be recharged in 10 minutes? Sure.
 
2013-01-24 04:19:40 PM  

Hollie Maea: StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.

Bullshiat. You can get a level 2 charger from farking Amazon for $900 bucks.


I've been contemplating installing this one, which plugs into any 240v outlet, and can be installed and uninstalled by the homeowner.

ecx.images-amazon.com

$3500 + install cost? Lol. Try $1049 for this unit.
 
2013-01-24 04:58:02 PM  

MylesHeartVodak: When they can develop an electric that I can drive from coast to coast (without needing to stop for a recharge any longer, or more often than it takes to refill a gas tank,) I'll buy one.

A pitiful 80 mile range and a 4 hour charge? No thanks.


Then you'll just have to get the Tesla Model S (50,000 after $8500) with its 300 Mile range and its charge time is dependent on charger and capacity:
The roadside Tesla Superchargers can charge about half the battery in 30 minutes, providing up to 150 miles (240 km) worth of range into the models configured with the 85 kWh battery packs.[42] Supercharging is included in all models with the 85 kW·h battery pack, including both Signature limited edition models, the Performance model, and the base model with 85 kW·h). Supercharging will also be included in the base model with the 60 kW·h battery for an extra cost, but it will not be available for the 40 kW·h battery model.[40][42]

A half hour down time to get another 150 miles isn't too bad. Not quite 10 minutes, like your normal car, but it could get you across the country in a relatively close proximity to what a standard car/travel pace could - around 700-750 miles a day.
 
2013-01-24 05:03:03 PM  

Acravius: Then you'll just have to get the Tesla Model S (50,000 after $8500) with its 300 Mile range and its charge time is dependent on charger and capacity:


The base Model S doesn't get "300 mile range". More like 125 real-world. And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any. Providing you have a reservation, because otherwise you'll have to wait until next year.
 
2013-01-24 05:04:36 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Acravius: Then you'll just have to get the Tesla Model S (50,000 after $8500) with its 300 Mile range and its charge time is dependent on charger and capacity:

The base Model S doesn't get "300 mile range". More like 125 real-world. And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any. Providing you have a reservation, because otherwise you'll have to wait until next year.


And as you point out, that base Model S won't be Supercharger capable.
 
2013-01-24 05:19:05 PM  
Well from nothing to buy in 2009 to deliveries to be made in February/March and April of this year for 5000 orders, it certainly is a big jump. Also from 40 to 125 real world travel miles comparing a Leaf to Tesla Model S, and only a 25% cost increase, I'd say it was a decent step in the right direction.

And yes they exist, but they are rare at this point:
The first delivery took place on June 1, 2012, to the first person to place an order, Tesla investor Steve Jurvetson.[64] Deliveries for retail customers in the United States started on June 22, at a special event held at the Tesla Factory in Fremont, California.[3] By September 2012, 359 units had been produced with 253 of those delivered to retail customers.[62] As of 30 November 2012, approximately 1,500 units had been delivered.[65]

The first 1,000 production units correspond to the Signature and Signature Performance limited edition equipped with a 85 kW·h battery pack. The Model S Signature model starts at US$95,400 and the Signature Performance at US$105,400.[10] The base Model S with the 40 kW·h battery pack starts at US$57,400, the model with the 60 kW·h pack increases US$10,000 and the base model with the 85 kW·h pack increases another US$10,000. These prices are before any applicable U.S. federal and local government tax credits and incentives.[40]

On November 29, 2012, Tesla announced an all model price increase of US$2,500 for new reservations, starting January 1, 2013. The company also released pricing for a replacement battery pack pre-paid option. The price of a 40 kWh pack is US$8,000, the price of a 60 kWh pack is US$10,000 , and the 85 kWh pack costs US$12,000.[66]
 
2013-01-24 05:32:54 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: The base Model S doesn't get "300 mile range". More like 125 real-world. And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any. Providing you have a reservation, because otherwise you'll have to wait until next year.


It's most interesting to see how electric car distance vs. charge time/rate breaks down:

2012 LEAF - level I charger = 4 miles for each hour of charging
2012 LEAF - level II charger = 13 miles for each hour of charging
2013 LEAF - level II charger = 20 miles for each hour of charging
2013 Tesla S - level II charger = 32 miles for each hour of charging
2013 Tesla S - dual level II chargers = 64 miles per hour of charging

2012 LEAF - level III charger = 70 miles per 30 minutes of charging
2013 Tesla S - supercharger = 150 miles per 30 minutes of charging
 
2013-01-24 05:38:30 PM  

Acravius: Well from nothing to buy in 2009 to deliveries to be made in February/March and April of this year for 5000 orders, it certainly is a big jump. Also from 40 to 125 real world travel miles comparing a Leaf to Tesla Model S, and only a 25% cost increase, I'd say it was a decent step in the right direction.

And yes they exist, but they are rare at this point:



I think you were responding to me, but I'll point out that Tesla hasn't made any of the $50K Teslas you initially mentioned, yet. They're working through their orders, having built all the 85kwh ($90k+), now they're getting to the 60kwh, but they haven't yet delivered any of the base models.
 
2013-01-24 06:23:33 PM  
Most of the article was fairly legit - you suppose by now Romero just throws in a random troll Fark line for clicks and lulz?
 
2013-01-24 06:36:58 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any.


That's odd. I personally know two people who have them. Actually it's not odd at all, considering that everything else you said is wrong too. Sometimes the explanation is as simple as "you are an uninformed dipshiat".
 
2013-01-24 06:42:27 PM  

Hollie Maea: Kraftwerk Orange: And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any.

That's odd. I personally know two people who have them. Actually it's not odd at all, considering that everything else you said is wrong too. Sometimes the explanation is as simple as "you are an uninformed dipshiat".


When it comes to the base edition Model S, with the 40kw battery, he's right. They haven't started shipping that specific trim yet. It's available "Spring 2013"
 
2013-01-24 06:44:58 PM  

MrSteve007: Hollie Maea: Kraftwerk Orange: And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any.

That's odd. I personally know two people who have them. Actually it's not odd at all, considering that everything else you said is wrong too. Sometimes the explanation is as simple as "you are an uninformed dipshiat".

When it comes to the base edition Model S, with the 40kw battery, he's right. They haven't started shipping that specific trim yet. It's available "Spring 2013"


Yeah, my bad. The initial statement that you could get a 300 mile tesla with super charger for 50,000 was the part that was wrong, so I thought he was responding to all the features originally listed, rather than for some odd reason latching on to the erroneous price.
 
2013-01-24 07:44:16 PM  
Sorry for the mistatements.
However the point I was trying to make was that there are electric options out there that are becoming closer and closer to able to replace conventional combustion engines in terms of performance and endurance, as was the complaint by the person I quoted.

He asked for a 200-300 mile range with a 10 minute charge, and I said it was available at 30 minutes, but in my haste I didn't notice that the price was 92k for the 300 mile option and 67k for the 200 option, instead of the 50k. I also thought that since they had been in production for 6 months, I thought that the base models were for sale, even if they were by reservation. As most high end car makers often custom make their cars when they are ordered, like BMW and others, the reservation just meant that they were custom built as the orders came in.
Oh well hopefully in 2013, their sales goals (of 20K), and their improvements on production both go up beyond 200 a week, and the lower price basic models will reach the road so that the transition from gasoline to full electic can continue to move forward.
 
2013-01-24 10:23:34 PM  
My world has just been shattered. Now I'm wondering if boats need water or not.
 
2013-01-25 12:36:47 AM  
So you build an all-electric car that consumes 253 gallons of diesel to make and you sell it for $34,000.00.

Or you build diesel car that only cost 18 gallons of diesel to make and sells for $18,000.00.

The question I pose is this: Which car will go past fifty thousand miles without having to pay 50% of its original cost in replacement parts?

The only electric car ever brought to market that was actually more efficient than diesel was the EV1.
 
2013-01-25 03:12:30 AM  

prjindigo: So you build an all-electric car that consumes 253 gallons of diesel to make and you sell it for $34,000.00.

Or you build diesel car that only cost 18 gallons of diesel to make and sells for $18,000.00.

The question I pose is this: Which car will go past fifty thousand miles without having to pay 50% of its original cost in replacement parts?

The only electric car ever brought to market that was actually more efficient than diesel was the EV1.


Lol, how much does it cost to drive a diesel 60 miles in the city?

The cost in my $26,000 Leaf: $1.37. That's pretty cheap. What does a gallon or two of diesel cost these days . . .
 
2013-01-25 04:18:55 AM  

pjbreeze: My world has just been shattered. Now I'm wondering if boats need water or not.


To be fair, filling a boat with water is generally counter-productive...


prjindigo: So you build an all-electric car that consumes 253 gallons of diesel to make and you sell it for $34,000.00.

Or you build diesel car that only cost 18 gallons of diesel to make and sells for $18,000.00.



...and where did these magical numbers come from?
=Smidge=
 
2013-01-25 12:21:18 PM  

Hollie Maea: Kraftwerk Orange: And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any.

That's odd. I personally know two people who have them. Actually it's not odd at all, considering that everything else you said is wrong too. Sometimes the explanation is as simple as "you are an uninformed dipshiat".


You know someone with a 40kwh Tesla Model S? I'll admit, from time to time I am misinformed, but Tesla says they won't make any base models until March.

"40 kWh Model S will phase into production in March 2013"

I know this is Fark, and it's standard practice to hurl insults, but I wasn't wrong when I stated Tesla hasn't built any base model (40kwh - $50K) Model S's yet.
 
2013-01-25 12:22:16 PM  

Hollie Maea: MrSteve007: Hollie Maea: Kraftwerk Orange: And you can't buy one yet because they haven't made any.

That's odd. I personally know two people who have them. Actually it's not odd at all, considering that everything else you said is wrong too. Sometimes the explanation is as simple as "you are an uninformed dipshiat".

When it comes to the base edition Model S, with the 40kw battery, he's right. They haven't started shipping that specific trim yet. It's available "Spring 2013"

Yeah, my bad. The initial statement that you could get a 300 mile tesla with super charger for 50,000 was the part that was wrong, so I thought he was responding to all the features originally listed, rather than for some odd reason latching on to the erroneous price.


So, you're the dipshiat then.
 
2013-01-25 02:49:40 PM  

StrikitRich: Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.


You pull that out of your arse?  I just got my quote for installing the 240v charger for my Volt and it was $1600, including the cost of the charger.
 
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