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(ABC Local)   Another stunning revelation from the Romero Institute: All-electric vehicles do not need gasoline   (abclocal.go.com) divider line 87
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2548 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 12:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 12:47:02 PM
They may however take down electric grids when everyone comes home at 5 and plugs them in at the same time.

/seriously, we had utilities in areas that we planned to sell the Volt express concern over this
//either electric companies are going to need their shiat together with regard to this or electric cars will have to queue to charge
/so you go home, plug it in and three hours later it is still uncharged and sitting in line when you decide to run to the store, that's going to make them popular
 
2013-01-24 12:47:42 PM
"[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.
 
2013-01-24 12:48:13 PM
Some one grab the smelling salts. This revelation has left me feeling faint.
 
2013-01-24 12:50:18 PM
I would love an electric car, but can one be priced reasonably to the point where it doesn't take 125 years of driving it to offset the high markup with gasoline savings? And would my electric bill skyrocket due constantly recharging it?

/I'm getting 30+ mpg with my 2006 Honda and plan on driving it for several more years. CSB
 
2013-01-24 12:50:22 PM
In some places, they run on coal
 
2013-01-24 12:50:26 PM

spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.


You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.
 
2013-01-24 12:50:27 PM
Keep going, guys. I appreciate the good work our scientists are putting into this but we're just not quite there yet.

What about a car with combination solar panels, charge mechanism and kinetic motion capture? Would that be feasible?
 
2013-01-24 12:51:20 PM
Electric cars make no sense here's this overly simplistic price comparison I can make with a used entry level compactgarble.
 
2013-01-24 12:52:12 PM
Depends on where you're getting the electricity from.

dl.dropbox.com

/In all seriousness tho, electric vehicles just move the demand.
/Need more renewable energy to really score them as a win.
 
2013-01-24 12:55:05 PM
All birds don't fly is another in-depth study on their radar.
 
2013-01-24 12:56:05 PM

ha-ha-guy: They may however take down electric grids when everyone comes home at 5 and plugs them in at the same time.

/seriously, we had utilities in areas that we planned to sell the Volt express concern over this
//either electric companies are going to need their shiat together with regard to this or electric cars will have to queue to charge
/so you go home, plug it in and three hours later it is still uncharged and sitting in line when you decide to run to the store, that's going to make them popular


It's only a problem if lots folks set up fast-charge stations in their homes. Directly plugging in your car to the wall is unnoticable load.
The fast chargers though have much more demand.
 
2013-01-24 12:57:05 PM

Raug the Dwarf: Keep going, guys. I appreciate the good work our scientists are putting into this but we're just not quite there yet.

What about a car with combination solar panels, charge mechanism and kinetic motion capture? Would that be feasible?


Already exists:

1.bp.blogspot.com

To be honest though, the solar roof doesn't provide a meaningful charge. The charge mechanism is the small ICE, and kinetic motion capture would be the brakes, which generate a small amount of power when slowing.
Not particularly quick, 0-60 in the 6 second range, and on the small side interior-space wise, the Karma can substantially reduce your fuel consumption by allowing you to travel 40-ish miles per day on battery power alone. For most people, that means buying a tank of gasoline only every few months, instead of every week.
 
2013-01-24 12:57:34 PM
Great... then demand for gas will fall and prices can go back down again! Then we can all sell our electric cars and buy SUV's again!
 
2013-01-24 12:58:32 PM
What?!?!?
 
2013-01-24 01:01:21 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: In some places, they run on coal


i1151.photobucket.com
Better load up the fire-box for that hill up ahead!
 
2013-01-24 01:02:39 PM

Raug the Dwarf: Keep going, guys. I appreciate the good work our scientists are putting into this but we're just not quite there yet.

What about a car with combination solar panels, charge mechanism and kinetic motion capture? Would that be feasible?


Solar panels on the car wouldn't catch enough sunlight due to the curvature of the body and small area, plus it'd be difficult to maintain optimum sun angle while driving. Plus the energy needed is too great to supply at any instant, that's why the experimental solar powered cars are tiny, lightweight, and look like wings with solar panels. Solar panels on your house + batteries = feasible. Kinetic energy capture (like regenerative braking) can help extend a charge, but if you're thinking windmills on the roof, that can't work due to the increased drag on the car to spin the propeller would take more energy than it wouild give you back.


ha-ha-guy: They may however take down electric grids when everyone comes home at 5 and plugs them in at the same time.

/seriously, we had utilities in areas that we planned to sell the Volt express concern over this
//either electric companies are going to need their shiat together with regard to this or electric cars will have to queue to charge
/so you go home, plug it in and three hours later it is still uncharged and sitting in line when you decide to run to the store, that's going to make them popular


Be sure to stand next to your electric clothes dryer while saying that.

MaudlinMutantMollusk: In some places, they run on coal


Even charging with 100% coal electricity is more efficent than hundreds of thousands of individual gasoline engines. That said, I don't think any electrical grid in the U.S. is 100% coal. In California, it's mostly hydro, nuclear, and natural gas.
 
2013-01-24 01:02:47 PM
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering
toddmpost.files.wordpress.com
I think so brain, but if it uses battries then wouldn't the MPG be infinite?
 
2013-01-24 01:06:57 PM

oldfarthenry: MaudlinMutantMollusk: In some places, they run on coal

[i1151.photobucket.com image 850x561]
Better load up the fire-box for that hill up ahead!


Wat.
www.impactlab.net mind = blown
 
2013-01-24 01:08:23 PM
I've always been curious about how we wound up with the sort of hybrid systems we have right now. If you only run the engine at one idea speed you can do the timing to be maximally efficient rather than the compromise you have in a variable speed engine.
 
2013-01-24 01:12:08 PM
You don't need gasoline in your electric vehicle, but I find nothing spices up a round of golf like keeping a few Molotov cocktails in the cart.
 
2013-01-24 01:12:38 PM
How does this guy still have a job after all these years??
 
2013-01-24 01:13:31 PM

Fark Rye For Many Whores: oldfarthenry: MaudlinMutantMollusk: In some places, they run on coal

[i1151.photobucket.com image 850x561]
Better load up the fire-box for that hill up ahead!

Wat.
[www.impactlab.net image 298x395] mind = blown


Please don't take anymore photos of me during my BMs. Those are quite unflattering.
 
2013-01-24 01:15:34 PM

Fark Rye For Many Whores: oldfarthenry: MaudlinMutantMollusk: In some places, they run on coal

[i1151.photobucket.com image 850x561]
Better load up the fire-box for that hill up ahead!

Wat.
[www.impactlab.net image 298x395] mind = blown


I think North Korean cars are modified to run on burning lumber (i.e. they have a fireplace for an engine).
 
2013-01-24 01:16:34 PM
$41,000 for a Ford Focus Electric?


Aww hell no.
 
2013-01-24 01:18:26 PM
The irony being, with the EPA regs going into effect, meaning we aren't building new powerplants and we are shuttering old ones, in addition to our aging infrastructure, we are already heading up shiat creek, power-wise, without the extra load these will put on. It's gonna be fun to read the headlines about how "nobody saw this coming". I eagerly await the various government agencies shiatting their pants.

/Source: Electrical Engineer Roommate who now works in Utilities
// Also the basic common sense that our governmental agencies will wait until the absolute last second to fix a problem if it costs money, so they can hopefully leave it for someone else to solve
///punt the ball until you can't punt it anymore, crucify the guy that is forced to fix things, punt again
 
2013-01-24 01:21:13 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-24 01:22:13 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.


That's the joke.
 
2013-01-24 01:23:13 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.


So the hell what? People blow $40K on cars all the time.
 
2013-01-24 01:26:46 PM

fireclown: Kraftwerk Orange: You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

So the hell what? People blow $40K on cars all the time.


Not on a Ford Focus, they don't.

/Falls into the "doing something wrong" category.
 
2013-01-24 01:26:49 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.


-whoosh-
 
2013-01-24 01:26:55 PM

fireclown: Kraftwerk Orange: You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

So the hell what? People blow $40K on cars all the time.


Not on a Ford Focus.
 
2013-01-24 01:28:59 PM
What I don't understand is why they limit the range. Add batteries. i know it adds cost and weight, but get the range up to 100 miles +.

Your target audience wants to see a quick return on the expense of the car. It is *not* people d0ing 5-10 miles to work. It is *me*, driving 32 miles each way in a minivan. I currently get about 20 MPG, so with 1280 miles per month (or more, that's just commute) I would be spending $256/month in gasoline. Electricity is cheap here (5c/Kw overnight) So an electric vehicle could save me over $200/month IF they could get the range up.

I drove the volt. It was a nicely built, fun car. But the range (especially here in phoenix) would get me only one way on batteries, the return trip would be gas, the savings maybe only 120/month.

Get the range up and the potential gasoline savings for those with long commutes will buy the cars.
 
2013-01-24 01:29:29 PM

ha-ha-guy: They may however take down electric grids when everyone comes home at 5 and plugs them in at the same time.

/seriously, we had utilities in areas that we planned to sell the Volt express concern over this
//either electric companies are going to need their shiat together with regard to this or electric cars will have to queue to charge
/so you go home, plug it in and three hours later it is still uncharged and sitting in line when you decide to run to the store, that's going to make them popular


Derp. (PDF, scan of magazine article. Online version here but it's lacking the graphs.)

TL;DR: "We can handle it with new billing strategies and rolling upgrades into maintenance we need to do anyway."

The bottom line is the Detroit Edison electric distribution system is able to handle the increased load from the initial fleet of PEV adoption with little investment in infrastructure upgrades. Off-peak vehicle charging (after 11 p.m.) can reduce costs and defer investments in distribution infrastructure upgrades while still allowing vehicles to receive a full charge by morning. It is also possible that incentivizing customers to charge during off-peak hours can be done with time-of-use pricing.

Basically what you're saying is having a large number of people buy air conditioners would crash the utility grid, because that's about the additional load an EV has. Nobody calls the power company when they get a new appliance, why would an EV be any different?
=Smidge=
 
2013-01-24 01:30:18 PM

fireclown: Kraftwerk Orange: You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

So the hell what? People blow $40K on cars all the time.


Not for a car that generally maxes out around $25K. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $15K.

I like electric cars, I'm a big supporter really. But at the moment, they charge an absurd premium over a standard car. There are some cases where the premium isn't that much of a deterrent, as in the Fisker Karma that I posted above, and in the Tesla Model S. Both are very expensive cars, but both can provide an ownership experience (Fisker = style, Tesla = speed) that justifies the cost.
 
2013-01-24 01:33:34 PM

ha-ha-guy: They may however take down electric grids when everyone comes home at 5 and plugs them in at the same time.

/seriously, we had utilities in areas that we planned to sell the Volt express concern over this
//either electric companies are going to need their shiat together with regard to this or electric cars will have to queue to charge
/so you go home, plug it in and three hours later it is still uncharged and sitting in line when you decide to run to the store, that's going to make them popular


Won't most of the load from car charging be at night, when other demand (air conditioning especially) is at its lowest? As it is there's a lot of electric generation capacity that exists purely for the worst-case scenarios (summer afternoons). Some generators are used only 10-30 hours a year. Hell, you could have the cars programmed to discharge power back into the grid during the day, only in cases of extreme load (to limit charge/discharge cycle wear on the battery).
 
2013-01-24 01:34:02 PM
Power grid and infrastructure problems aside I'm left wondering how do pure EVs provide heat into the cabin of the car during the winter?

I have a hybrid and in the winter the gas engine runs more because that's what is producing the heat to keep me warm. A heating coil would drain a battery faster that you can say "Cold enough outside to freeze the balls off a brass monkey".

So how do they do it and still let you get some mileage out of the EV? Or are EVs only for warmer climates?
 
2013-01-24 01:34:23 PM

gunther_bumpass: Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

-whoosh-


I apologize, I took the question too literally. I spend way too much time discussing these things with people who are convinced that there's a huge anti-EV conspiracy, and who actually don't understand the issues of high initial cost, short range, and long recharging times.
 
2013-01-24 01:35:35 PM

gunther_bumpass: Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.

-whoosh-


-whir--whir- -whir- -whir- -whir- -whir- -whir- -whir- -whir- -whir-

FTFFiskar
 
2013-01-24 01:42:07 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: spentmiles: "[The Ford Focus Electric] that Consumer Reports tested costs $41,000, with a range of about 80 miles. A full charge takes less than four hours with a 240-volt charger."

I wish someone could explain to me why electric vehicles have not caught on. They really seem the pinnacle of modern convenience.

You did see that the FFE costs $41,000? That's part of the reason they haven't caught on.


Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.
 
2013-01-24 01:43:54 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Raug the Dwarf: Keep going, guys. I appreciate the good work our scientists are putting into this but we're just not quite there yet.

What about a car with combination solar panels, charge mechanism and kinetic motion capture? Would that be feasible?

Already exists:

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 850x566]

To be honest though, the solar roof doesn't provide a meaningful charge. The charge mechanism is the small ICE, and kinetic motion capture would be the brakes, which generate a small amount of power when slowing.
Not particularly quick, 0-60 in the 6 second range, and on the small side interior-space wise, the Karma can substantially reduce your fuel consumption by allowing you to travel 40-ish miles per day on battery power alone. For most people, that means buying a tank of gasoline only every few months, instead of every week.


There is a car in that picture?

/ yeah, plug it in.
 
2013-01-24 01:44:03 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Not for a car that generally maxes out around $25K. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $15K.


That's a mistake that a lot of people make. Vehicle features don't have to break even financially. Heated seats don't break even. Extra horsepower doesn't break even. Rims don't break even. God knows booty-rattlin' stereos don't break even. You have one because you consider it cool as all get out (which it is), or terribly convenient in that you don't have to gas the thing up.
 
2013-01-24 01:53:58 PM

fireclown: Kraftwerk Orange: Not for a car that generally maxes out around $25K. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $15K.

That's a mistake that a lot of people make. Vehicle features don't have to break even financially. Heated seats don't break even. Extra horsepower doesn't break even. Rims don't break even. God knows booty-rattlin' stereos don't break even. You have one because you consider it cool as all get out (which it is), or terribly convenient in that you don't have to gas the thing up.


Nope that's not a mistake. I pulled out my calculator, and it turns out you can buy a lot of gasoline for $15k
 
2013-01-24 02:00:56 PM
The cost of replacing the coal/oil/Natural gas/Nuclear fired power grid with a Hydrogen/Wind Turbine/Solar Grid would be around 35 Billion a year for 10 years.
The cost of our current base resource price per year for our current Coal/Oil/Natural Gas fired grid is 143 Biillion a year, not including maintainance costs nor pipeline expansion costs or any other major investments (new NG Fracking installations, oil rigs etc.

If we made just 2 years of 35 Billion in Wind/Solar investment in the right way, 111 Billion of this yearly cost (coal) would be removed from the yearly energy generation base cost, and not be replaced.
So without change our current energy cost for 10 years = 1.43 Trillion dollars
10 years with change over to Wind/Solar other components = 350 Billion Dollars.
Other than base upkeep costs, total energy costs from new installations and natural resources = 0

Bonus when completed we begin to have energy surplus reserves equal to 4 years for every year the new completed grid is up.
Plus the expected before replacement is: 50 years for Solar and 75 years for Wind.
Another advantage, is if we invest 10 Billion in Superconductive tech, we can cut the total conversion price to around 150 Billion as we increase our efficiencies by 35 to 40% over those same 10 years.

As for the car tech, as soon as SuperCapacitors become the primary battery component, charge rates should drop to around 80% charge in 20 -25 minutes with the remaining 20% being replinished in an extra hour or two.
Also the installation of the newly developed solar cells onto the car could extened daylight range by 20 percent, or help to the charge the car in 4 hours in a sunny environment or 6 in a cloudy more northerly lattitude.

So while we have some distance to go, we could have most of the problem of energy production on earth solved and completely underground resource free in 10 to 12 years, by just using what we now have on the shelf in a wel;l thought out way.
 
2013-01-24 02:03:16 PM

silverjets: Power grid and infrastructure problems aside I'm left wondering how do pure EVs provide heat into the cabin of the car during the winter?


Can't speak for any others, but the MY2011 and MY2012 Nissan LEAF had simple resistive heaters. Using the heater has a significant impact on range. MY2013 has a heat pump heating system (with a resistive heater backup) which consumes less power for the same heat delivered.


The LEAF also has heated seats and steering wheel to help keep the driver comfortable without fully heating the entire cabin. Pre-heating (running the heater while still plugged in) is also possible and can be controlled remotely... so 10 minutes before you need to leave, use your smartphone to turn on the heat so it's nice and warm before you unplug.


StrikitRich: Don't forget that the 240-volt charger costs an additional $3500 + installation.


Well, that's not true now and I doubt it ever was. Even at its worst the official L2 unit from Nissan was ~$2000 including installation. If you're smart you can send in the L1 charger included with the vehicle for an upgrade for ~$250 and install an appropriate plug where you plan to charge.

I bet whoever was trying to sell you a $3500 charger plus installation probably offered you a great deal on the undercoating too.
=Smidge=
 
2013-01-24 02:08:14 PM
Some people around here are finding out they don't do well in cold weather.
 
2013-01-24 02:10:07 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: fireclown: Kraftwerk Orange: Not for a car that generally maxes out around $25K. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $15K.

That's a mistake that a lot of people make. Vehicle features don't have to break even financially. Heated seats don't break even. Extra horsepower doesn't break even. Rims don't break even. God knows booty-rattlin' stereos don't break even. You have one because you consider it cool as all get out (which it is), or terribly convenient in that you don't have to gas the thing up.

Nope that's not a mistake. I pulled out my calculator, and it turns out you can buy a lot of gasoline for $15k


It's a good thing there are plenty of greater fools out there willing to buy new technologies like this before they become complete cost effective.  Otherwise you would still need a suitcase to care around your laptop and another one for your cell phone.
 
2013-01-24 02:12:49 PM
i586.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-24 02:19:26 PM

Land Ark: It's only a problem if lots folks set up fast-charge stations in their homes. Directly plugging in your car to the wall is unnoticable load.
The fast chargers though have much more demand.


We, or I should say my company at least, generally assumes fast charge is the only way they'll ever catch on as anything other than a glorified golf cart that is a third vehicle. Our metric is it needs to fully recharge in the time it takes the average family to eat dinner. So you drive home, plug it in, eat dinner and it is ready for whatever errands you want to run that night or whatever else you had planned.
 
2013-01-24 02:20:52 PM
The cost of driving my truck to and from work each month @ 60 miles a day (1,200 miles divided by 18 mpg x $3.50 a gallon = $233

The cost of leasing a Nissan LEAF and driving to and from work: $199 lease + $13 for electricity = $212

So, I end up driving a brand new car, don't contribute to polluting the air and have a couple more bucks in my pocket at the end of the month.
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
/bonus, with solar panels at home and work - it's about as clean as transportation gets.
//after incentives, the 2013 LEAF starts at $23,000 out the door. $18,500 in California.
 
2013-01-24 02:22:13 PM

Smidge204: Derp. (PDF, scan of magazine article. Online version here but it's lacking the graphs.)


DTE was not one of the utilities that complained to use about the potential load. The issues came from some SoCal and Dallas-Fort Worth utilities who are seeing high AC loads at the time fast chargers would fire up in the evening.
 
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