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(Today)   Bioethicist claims obesity can be reduced by shaming fat people instead of embracing them, because your arms just aren't long enough   (todayhealth.today.com) divider line 518
    More: Unlikely, bioethics, NYU Langone Medical Center, Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, peer pressures, obesity  
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5192 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 9:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-25 11:58:41 AM  

PsiChick: Phinn: PsiChick: Tell you what. You want to fattie-shame? Okay--just tell Fark the name of one of your medical issues. We'll comment on it as we see fit. Sounds fair to me.

Overeating is not a medical issue. Neither is smoking.

They can cause medical issues. But those self-abusive behaviors are not medical problems. They're just bad habits.

A) Okay. Tell Fark the name of one of your bad habits. Don't tell me you don't pick your nose, drive while on a cell phone...hell, driving while on a cell phone is probably  more dangerous than being fat.

B) There's this amazing thing called 'science' that actually discovered multiple factors in obesity...several decades ago. You might want to catch up sometime. One of the most fascinating finds is that some research suggests obese people are metabolizing the same foodstuffs in completely different ways--if you give two people a hamburger, one will put on weight, but the other will basically shrug it off, because the one putting on weight is metabolizing almost all of it as fat instead of metabolizing the proportional amounts of various nutrients. That's why some overweight people are also suffering from malnutrition.


One hamburger does not make a person obese. The obese person eats 5, claims they only eat one, and then blames metabolism.

Calories in v calories out. End of story.
 
2013-01-25 12:00:30 PM  
Smackledorfer: "This might be some of the worst advice I've ever read. You should have dropped this troll-bomb at the start of the thread."

Go on, dipshiat. Tell me how sensible eating of things other than crap and moderate aerobic exercise is terrible advice. Or, rather, why don't you just come out and tell us which wacky for-profit diet book or program you are pushing as an alternative? "Spend yourself thin" perhaps?

Don't eat processed food. Don't eat high fat food (as this will start a pavlovian cycle that will keep you eating - disagree? again, try eating just 5 chips). Start conservatively, but build up to regular sustained aerobic exercize - ideally at least 40 minutes to an hour every other day.

only on the internet could I be called a troll for such advice. but, go on - tell us what you're selling.
 
2013-01-25 12:08:25 PM  

Thunderpipes: One hamburger does not make a person obese. The obese person eats 5, claims they only eat one, and then blames metabolism.

Calories in v calories out. End of story.


Go google define:example.
 
2013-01-25 12:53:02 PM  

Graffito: It's just that I've never met an obese person who was not aware that he or she was obese and who did not hate themselves for it. I don't see how telling them that they are disgusting will do anything other than make me look like an ass.


I agree, but is there anything that we could do to help? Perhaps amend healthcare so that 'obese' is considered a medical condition worthy of treatment, and payment for, by healthcare?

Maybe even as low as 'overweight'. By the time somebody is morbidly obese, their exercise options are generally limited, there's already large amounts of damage/medical conditions, etc...

It's a lot cheaper if you can successfully intervene earlier.
 
2013-01-25 01:33:50 PM  
Firethorn: I agree, but is there anything that we could do to help? Perhaps amend healthcare so that 'obese' is considered a medical condition worthy of treatment, and payment for, by healthcare?

Close, but what we were looking for, Johnny, is "institute a national health system" so that the goal of keeping people healthy is in line with the relevant financial incentives and that preventative care and sound professional medical advice is readily available to all.

But, you know, we can't, say the morans, beause of illegal immigants. You know, the kind that consume about 0,01% of the resources of britain's NHS.
 
2013-01-25 01:45:25 PM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: Smackledorfer: "This might be some of the worst advice I've ever read. You should have dropped this troll-bomb at the start of the thread."

Go on, dipshiat. Tell me how sensible eating of things other than crap and moderate aerobic exercise is terrible advice. Or, rather, why don't you just come out and tell us which wacky for-profit diet book or program you are pushing as an alternative? "Spend yourself thin" perhaps?

Don't eat processed food. Don't eat high fat food (as this will start a pavlovian cycle that will keep you eating - disagree? again, try eating just 5 chips). Start conservatively, but build up to regular sustained aerobic exercize - ideally at least 40 minutes to an hour every other day.

only on the internet could I be called a troll for such advice. but, go on - tell us what you're selling.


Don't eat fat is stupid advice. Most fats are healthy for you. While processed food is bad, fat from meats is healthy. If you want to talk about addictions fat isn't the source of those, it's sugar.

Running is a high impact low calorie burn activity for people in bad shape. Also, running aside, people in bad shape they will see better improvement through intervals than picking one speed and holding it. They should be doing a variety of exercises so that each muscle group (not to mention joints - we are talking about the obese here) has more recovery time between workouts. That means a variety of cardio, a variety of intensity, and weight training (both strength training and circuit training are good).

Your suggestion was pretty much "eat more sugar, break your legs".
 
2013-01-25 02:14:05 PM  

Smackledorfer: Bomb Head Mohammed: Smackledorfer: "This might be some of the worst advice I've ever read. You should have dropped this troll-bomb at the start of the thread."

Go on, dipshiat. Tell me how sensible eating of things other than crap and moderate aerobic exercise is terrible advice. Or, rather, why don't you just come out and tell us which wacky for-profit diet book or program you are pushing as an alternative? "Spend yourself thin" perhaps?

Don't eat processed food. Don't eat high fat food (as this will start a pavlovian cycle that will keep you eating - disagree? again, try eating just 5 chips). Start conservatively, but build up to regular sustained aerobic exercize - ideally at least 40 minutes to an hour every other day.

only on the internet could I be called a troll for such advice. but, go on - tell us what you're selling.

Don't eat fat is stupid advice. Most fats are healthy for you. While processed food is bad, fat from meats is healthy. If you want to talk about addictions fat isn't the source of those, it's sugar.

Running is a high impact low calorie burn activity for people in bad shape. Also, running aside, people in bad shape they will see better improvement through intervals than picking one speed and holding it. They should be doing a variety of exercises so that each muscle group (not to mention joints - we are talking about the obese here) has more recovery time between workouts. That means a variety of cardio, a variety of intensity, and weight training (both strength training and circuit training are good).

Your suggestion was pretty much "eat more sugar, break your legs".


He said don't eat "high fat" foods.

"Do you listen, or do you wait to talk?"
 
2013-01-25 02:59:50 PM  

spacelord321: He said don't eat "high fat" foods.


Why wouldn't you eat high-fat foods if fats are healthy and filling?

You can eat "high fat" foods without eating a "high fat diet" and no, contrary to his claim, it isn't fats in food that give you cravings to go back and scarf more down.

He also mentioned chips as an example. Guess what makes up less than half the caloric content of most chips? Fat. Guess what makes up more than half? Carbs.

But sure, it's the fat that gives you the addiction response and the false hunger from blood sugar spiking.
 
2013-01-25 03:23:46 PM  

Smackledorfer: spacelord321: He said don't eat "high fat" foods.

Why wouldn't you eat high-fat foods if fats are healthy and filling?

You can eat "high fat" foods without eating a "high fat diet" and no, contrary to his claim, it isn't fats in food that give you cravings to go back and scarf more down.

He also mentioned chips as an example. Guess what makes up less than half the caloric content of most chips? Fat. Guess what makes up more than half? Carbs.

But sure, it's the fat that gives you the addiction response and the false hunger from blood sugar spiking.


He talked about sugars in an earlier post, I believe. And fats do create a craving for more fats. We are learning more and more everyday about healthier diets for humans but we are still quite ignorant. I can find conflicting reports for everything mentioned in this thread so far.

From my personal reading and experience I have come to one definative conclusion: cut processed foods for healthier living. Life feeds on life. The closer it is to living, the better your body can metabolize it.
 
2013-01-25 03:47:41 PM  
If being unable to eat only "five chips" is your best example of a so-called fat addiction, you need to think again.

Chips are made of potatoes. That is the very worst, fat-producing food you can eat because they might as well be made out of refined sugar. The calories come mainly from the oil, yes, but it is the sugar that triggers the insulin, which drives the process of forming body fat. The only thing worse is HFCS.

Fatty foods that contain little sugar are fine. Olive oil, avocados, meat, even some of the tastier cheeses.

They satiate, which means that by eating them, it's infinitely easier to stop eating when you've had enough calories.
 
2013-01-25 04:19:17 PM  
Phinn: If being unable to eat only "five chips" is your best example of a so-called fat addiction, you need to think again.
Chips are made of potatoes..

Chips are made of potatoes in the same way a drinking glass is made of sand. The process of making a chip (or a french fry) is basically one where the starch is replaced with fat. The more "chip" or "fry" like a piece of food is, the less potato is contains.

The fact that some idiot here interpreted my "Don't eat processed foods and fat-heavy foods and get moderate exercize" as "pig out on sugar and break your legs" has opened my eyes as to the crazy alternate universe that some people live in. I can't help but wonder if whoever would write that do so as an excuse for their own failings or is it that they're just that dumb.

I'm not saying "eat sugar." I'm saying "don't eat crap and don't eat foods that contain too much / unnecessary fat to put you on the fat-salt-saliva cycle" However, I think if you look closely what you will find is that people who "eat sugar" are those who are eating FAT INFUSED FOODS. Very few people get fat just by eating, say, bag after bag of skittles - most people would get sick after a short time. What there needs to be is an agent that makes you *keep coming back* to the sugar to make it dangerous. In the case of Coca Cola, that factor is caffeine. In most of the real types of food that get people fat, it's fat that makes you salivate, most of which is very present in processed foods even where you wont expect it. Oreos are a good example - if it were just the sugar, you'd give up after a few just because you'd be nauseous from the sugar rush - you dont see people eating smarties nonstop. But it's the fat that keeps you coming back - in the case of oreos, in the white where you kind of do expect it and in the cookie, where many don't.

Consider ramen noodles. Cheap packaged ones are fried and contain a massive amount of fat. Fresh ones are not and contain almost no fat at all. After you eat a bowl of ramen with fresh noodles and a reasonable stock, you are satisfied but not hungy. After you eat a bowl of instant ramen, you want more. More or less equal salt in both cases (though the instant will have more).

Don't believe me? Try switching to healthy "dry" (non-fatty) foods for a short while. You'll find it very difficult to do as you will feel hungry as your body will not satisfy your fat craving. But then, after a few days, it goes away.

But, you know, you can sit here arguing about it, or you can stop eating crap and start getting moderate aerobic exercize--EVEN IF THIS MEANS WALKING. That this would be controversial in any way hints at the extremely large amounts of disinformation and biased information out there, which may be why so many americans are confused and fat.

Now pardon me, I'm off for my run (26 minutes and all that).
 
2013-01-25 04:24:20 PM  
It's diet and exercise. It doesn't matter so much what you eat as long as you're not eating too much, especially too much junk food.

For truly obese people, just getting moving is key. Although I don't agree with everything that Bomb Head said, I certainly don't think sprints are the answer. If you're at twice your optimal weight, you're not going to sprint anywhere. Any exercise requires gradual build up.

There's truths on both sides. Not all people have the same metabolism. Most (emphasis on MOST) fat people eat too much crap and don't move enough. Myself included. I had a physical yesterday and was 425 and I'm 6'2". Based on most charts I should be under 196. Based on my build I think I'm pretty good at 210. I'm not sprinting anywhere and all sprinting would do is discourage me and maybe cause a heart attack.

Two weeks ago I stopped putting sugar in my coffee and my craving for sugar has decreased. Regardless of how I got here I'm the only one who can fix me. All the other fat people can only be fixed by themselves. They have to want it enough to turn off the TV and get off the couch. The times I've had dramatic weight loss it's because I cut back on what I was eating and exercised (either summer yard work job, swimming, or something else). More time moving means less time sitting around and eating out of boredom. More time moving means more muscle development which means that every move burns more calories because more muscles are doing it.

For me though sugar seems to be the key. When I was on Weight Watchers (and lost about 80 pounds) I crammed as much sugar into my diet as I could and constantly looking forward to my next fix. I think if I can cut out most sugar (coffee, cookies, cake/icing, etc.) the I think I'll have an easier time.
 
2013-01-25 04:28:19 PM  
Oh, and sleep. It's hard to say "no" to a treat or get up and move if you haven't had a good night of sleep. That's one of the issues I have, both apnea (which is being treated) and staying up too late watching TV, snacking, and making posts on FARK.
 
2013-01-25 06:00:00 PM  

spacelord321: 1. stop eating fats, especially fats from processed food and ground meats.


Okay, going by your latter posts, I think you need to rephrase this to 'avoid high salt processed food'. There are plenty of low-fat foods loaded with salt that will do the salivation thing, and there are low salt high fat foods that don't.

Personally, I've had greater success simply avoiding sugar, especially corn syrup, and recognizing that when eating salty foods I'm going to need to drink a lot of water.

And when I say 'sugar', I mean added sugar - I'll eat apples, oranges, banannas, etc... I'm talking about things like soda, candy, etc... Anything with natural sugars in it should still have the fiber present - IE most juices are DQ'd as the fiber has been removed. 1 orange is more filling and a whole heck of a lot fewer calories than 1 cup of OJ.

2. run without rewarding yourself.

I violate this as well. I use a exercise machine. Not a treadmill, an elliptical trainer. Then again, weather forecast for tomorrow is -50F. I reach a steady heart rate of about ~164, have a total exercise period of 62 minutes including the machine's automatic 2 minute cooldown, and burn 800-850 calories during that period(I'm aware that despite displaying individual calories, it's only an estimate).

Part of the reason for doing this is that if I run too much I get knee pain. I'd like to avoid having to replace the suckers.

Some exercise notes from me:
1. Any exercise is good during the day. I work in the basement, I go to the bathroom on the 2nd floor simply for the extra work.
2. Elevated heart rate exercise is even better
3. You need at least 20 minutes of elevated heart rate in your target zone* a day to improve. Oddly enough, this can be spread throughout the day in sessions as short as a minute each. Just be aware that the timer doesn't start until your heart is actually in the zone - warm up periods don't count.
4. You have a fat burn and a cardio zone - fat burn is basically what you can keep up all day long. Cardio, if done long enough, WILL make you tired. Cardio will burn fat as well, and faster than fat burn. But unless you're in an unusual situation, cardio WILL get you sweaty.
*May take some work to find your zone. I'm a touch high for my age.
5. Anaerobic exercise; where you exceed the cardio level and head closer to your max heart rate, is unsustainable pretty much by definition. It's mostly useful for increasing your max capacity. Aerobic exercise will let you work out longer, Anaerobic will let you work out harder. I always try to go anaerobic for the last couple minutes. I'll be approaching 190 when cooldown begins.
6. Strength training: Building your muscles not only lets you work out at a higher level; muscle takes more calories just to maintain than fat. If you build more muscle you burn more calories even at rest.  It takes a mix: Generally I try to push my cardio enough that it doubles as light strength training, and switch muscle groups enough that my weight lifting counts as at least fat burn level aerobic.
 
2013-01-25 06:29:24 PM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: Close, but what we were looking for, Johnny, is "institute a national health system" so that the goal of keeping people healthy is in line with the relevant financial incentives and that preventative care and sound professional medical advice is readily available to all.


I'd love that; however I didn't want to derail the argument.

Phinn: The calories come mainly from the oil, yes, but it is the sugar that triggers the insulin, which drives the process of forming body fat. The only thing worse is HFCS.


Just to verify the facts:
Lay's Classic & Ruffles Original potato chips: 160 cal serving, 90 from fat. 15g Carbs, 10 grams of fat, 2g protein.
Surprisingly, it has useful amounts of Vitamin E, C, B6, Niacin, Phosphorus, Thiamin and Magnesium.

Some of the problem is the massive amount of salt.

spacelord321: From my personal reading and experience I have come to one definative conclusion: cut processed foods for healthier living. Life feeds on life. The closer it is to living, the better your body can metabolize it.


I think it's actually closer to the opposite. Your body evolved having to put quite a bit of effort into getting enough nutrition from the food - thus we're programmed to go after easily digestible stuff. Sugars, for example. Problem: Modern food is TOO digestible, which tends to lead to over-eating, badly optimized hunger responses - we crave sugar because it's easy to digest; but our bodies didn't evolve with the idea that we'd actually be able to get as much of it as we can today. Much, much higher amounts of physical work, etc...
 
2013-01-25 06:31:29 PM  

Zelron: For truly obese people, just getting moving is key. Although I don't agree with everything that Bomb Head said, I certainly don't think sprints are the answer. If you're at twice your optimal weight, you're not going to sprint anywhere. Any exercise requires gradual build up.

There's truths on both sides. Not all people have the same metabolism. Most (emphasis on MOST) fat people eat too much crap and don't move enough. Myself included. I had a physical yesterday and was 425 and I'm 6'2". Based on most charts I should be under 196. Based on my build I think I'm pretty good at 210. I'm not sprinting anywhere and all sprinting would do is discourage me and maybe cause a heart attack.


Yes, of course -- at 425, sprinting is not recommended. You do need to get to the point where running at 60-70% of your maximum speed for 15 seconds is not life threatening.

That caveat, however, does not mean that nutrition and fitness is somehow a grand, impenetrable mystery that is inscrutable to the investigations of science.

Fat is stored in the presence of insulin.

The body needs dietary calories in order to have something to turn into fat, of course. But the trigger -- the signal to your millions of cells -- comes from insulin, which is secreted in response to dietary carbohydrates. The greater the calorie intake, the more raw material your body has available to store as fat, but the message to store those excess calories as fat (instead of just passing them through the body unused) comes from insulin.

That's why it's possible to experience "rabbit starvation." People with no food source other than rabbits, even though they get enough calories, can starve if that's all they have to eat. The aggregate caloric intake is sufficient, but the body will not convert the calories to body fat because there aren't enough sugars to stimulate any insulin (and converting the dietary proteins to sugars is too inefficient).

So, the key to reducing one's body fat is to (a) consume roughly the correct number of calories your body needs to function, and (b) limit your carb intake.

That way, even if you eat a moderately excessive number of calories, they will not be converted to body fat.

Eating vegetables for your carbs is a great way to never eat too many carbs. They are just too low-density to ever stimulate much insulin.

But at 425 pounds, your insulin sensitivity (in trillions of cells) is extremely low. Cutting carbs too low at first will cause a low blood glucose spike that will feel awful, and may be harmful. So, you have to wean off of them gradually.
 
2013-01-25 06:53:20 PM  

Phinn: That's why it's possible to experience "rabbit starvation." People with no food source other than rabbits, even though they get enough calories, can starve if that's all they have to eat. The aggregate caloric intake is sufficient, but the body will not convert the calories to body fat because there aren't enough sugars to stimulate any insulin (and converting the dietary proteins to sugars is too inefficient).


Thus how the Atkins diet works. Though I'd like to see a link showing you can literally starve to death that way.

But at 425 pounds, your insulin sensitivity (in trillions of cells) is extremely low. Cutting carbs too low at first will cause a low blood glucose spike that will feel awful, and may be harmful. So, you have to wean off of them gradually.

Don't I know it. Good way to lose weight though.
 
2013-01-26 10:07:41 PM  
 
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