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(RotoExperts)   Sammy Sosa thinks the Cubs should retire his number, he should be in the MLB HOF, and that he should be president of the Dominican Republic. Sammy, we have an imaginary fake dead girlfriend for you   (rotoexperts.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, Sammy Sosa, Cubs, Major League Baseball, ha-has, Hall of Fames, Dominican Republic, HOF, mlb hof  
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500 clicks; posted to Sports » on 24 Jan 2013 at 10:27 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



37 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-01-24 10:26:45 AM  
Why not retire his number? The Cubs are the Lovable Losers, and Sammy certain qualifies.

He should be in the Hall of Fame. So should Bonds and McGwire and all those PED guys. They actually made baseball interesting. The guys inducted into the HoF weren't exactly farking saints.
 
2013-01-24 10:34:45 AM  

bdub77: Why not retire his number? The Cubs are the Lovable Losers, and Sammy certain qualifies.

He should be in the Hall of Fame. So should Bonds and McGwire and all those PED guys. They actually made baseball interesting. The guys inducted into the HoF weren't exactly farking saints.


Bonds and Clemens were Hall of Fame-caliber players even before they started roiding up. Sosa and McGwire were nothing before the roids, and even with them were nothing more than power hitters. Even with the roids, Sosa still needed a corked bat.
 
2013-01-24 10:37:33 AM  
Link

You're welcome.
 
2013-01-24 10:38:11 AM  
I think Sosa need to be brought back as the clubhouse music director
 
2013-01-24 10:54:19 AM  

NeoCortex42: Sosa and McGwire were nothing before the roids


Ummm...Rookie of the Year, 49 HR as a rookie, six consecutive ASGs to start his career and MVP votes in almost all those years, was nothing?
 
2013-01-24 10:57:01 AM  

astro716: Link

You're welcome.


That is awesome.
 
2013-01-24 11:11:21 AM  

NeoCortex42: McGwire were nothing before the roids


NotSureIfSerious.jpg

/49
 
2013-01-24 11:20:30 AM  

NeoCortex42: Even with the roids, Sosa still needed a corked bat.


You know, what little research has been done suggests that using a corked bat doesn't help at all, and may lower a player's power.

Here's a good place to start. Additionally, mythbusters tackled it in one episode which is worth a watch.
 
2013-01-24 11:22:30 AM  
Que? No se, compadre.

// he's on stronger drugs now, I guess
 
2013-01-24 11:37:54 AM  

DeWayne Mann: NeoCortex42: Even with the roids, Sosa still needed a corked bat.

You know, what little research has been done suggests that using a corked bat doesn't help at all, and may lower a player's power.

Here's a good place to start. Additionally, mythbusters tackled it in one episode which is worth a watch.


Yeah, I've seen studies that look into that. I agree that a corked bat is probably not doing a lot to help a hitter, but I still think it's pretty bad that Sammy decided to use one in an attempt to get an unfair advantage.
 
2013-01-24 11:43:40 AM  

IAmRight: NeoCortex42: Sosa and McGwire were nothing before the roids

Ummm...Rookie of the Year, 49 HR as a rookie, six consecutive ASGs to start his career and MVP votes in almost all those years, was nothing?


digistil: NeoCortex42: McGwire were nothing before the roids

NotSureIfSerious.jpg

/49


Okay, I looked over his page on baseball-reference and I guess I forgot that he started out pretty good even before the roids. I'll admit I was for some reason remembering it completely wrong, probably because he's always mentioned along with Sosa. Looking at Sosa's stats, I don't see any case for him getting into the hall. You can pretty clearly see the transition in his stats from one year to the next where he probably started juicing.
 
2013-01-24 11:46:16 AM  

NeoCortex42: DeWayne Mann: NeoCortex42: Even with the roids, Sosa still needed a corked bat.

You know, what little research has been done suggests that using a corked bat doesn't help at all, and may lower a player's power.

Here's a good place to start. Additionally, mythbusters tackled it in one episode which is worth a watch.

Yeah, I've seen studies that look into that. I agree that a corked bat is probably not doing a lot to help a hitter, but I still think it's pretty bad that Sammy decided to use one in an attempt to get an unfair advantage.


Let's agree for the record: corked bats almost certainly do nothing physical, but could have a psychological effect.

So, with that out of the way: other than the fact that one is illegal while the other is officially endorsed by MLB, what's the difference between a corked bat and Phiten necklace?
 
2013-01-24 11:47:51 AM  
fark this guy
 
2013-01-24 11:52:06 AM  
Why are so many people assuming McGwire wasn't on steroids right from the get-go? Not that Canseco is the most trustworthy source, but he described the bathroom stall sessions in vivid detail.
 
2013-01-24 11:53:26 AM  

Super Chronic: Why are so many people assuming McGwire wasn't on steroids right from the get-go? Not that Canseco is the most trustworthy source, but he described the bathroom stall sessions in vivid detail.


Personally, I assume every player in the game started using steroids in middle school.
 
2013-01-24 11:54:06 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Let's agree for the record: corked bats almost certainly do nothing physical, but could have a psychological effect.


I thought corking might help a contact hitter with bat speed? Isn't that what the Mythbusters found - you can swing the lighter/less dense bat faster, meaning you're more likely to make contact. Won't help you with power (you'll probably lose some), but it'll help a contact hitter.

// why didn't Sosa just give his "BP bat" to Juan Pierre?
 
2013-01-24 12:02:43 PM  

Super Chronic: Why are so many people assuming McGwire wasn't on steroids right from the get-go? Not that Canseco is the most trustworthy source, but he described the bathroom stall sessions in vivid detail.


Because he had a sudden bulk up part way through his career, a la Bonds. Dude didn't look anything special the first few years.

/have loads of McGuire rookies in mint... probably worth nothing these days.
 
2013-01-24 12:06:16 PM  

Dr Dreidel: DeWayne Mann: Let's agree for the record: corked bats almost certainly do nothing physical, but could have a psychological effect.

I thought corking might help a contact hitter with bat speed? Isn't that what the Mythbusters found - you can swing the lighter/less dense bat faster, meaning you're more likely to make contact. Won't help you with power (you'll probably lose some), but it'll help a contact hitter.

// why didn't Sosa just give his "BP bat" to Juan Pierre?


It has roughly the same effect as simply going to a lower bat weight. So if you cork a 32 ounce bat, you'd probably just be better off moving to a 30ounce instead, which would be far less likely to break.

The one POSSIBLE advantage to corking a bat is that it keeps the length. To use the example from above, a 32oz is probably 35 inches long; a 30oz is probably 34". So a corked 32oz might have the same power & speed as a stock 30oz, but with that extra inch.

Of course, that raises all sorts of other questions, like "why not just get a custom 30/35 bat," but, you know how it is.
 
2013-01-24 12:17:54 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Of course, that raises all sorts of other questions, like "why not just get a custom 30/35 bat," but, you know how it is.


I think there are rules about length vs weight. Something like the length in inches must be within X of the bat's weight in oz. So a 34" bat must be between (e.g.) 31 and 37 oz (assuming the delta can't be >3) - so corking takes a legal bat and makes it lighter.

// IIRC, this is part of the reason some bats have a conic section carved out of the top - shaves a few oz off the weight without losing length (or maybe they only do that to bats they sell/donate?)
 
2013-01-24 12:30:52 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I think there are rules about length vs weight. Something like the length in inches must be within X of the bat's weight in oz. So a 34" bat must be between (e.g.) 31 and 37 oz (assuming the delta can't be >3) - so corking takes a legal bat and makes it lighter.

// IIRC, this is part of the reason some bats have a conic section carved out of the top - shaves a few oz off the weight without losing length (or maybe they only do that to bats they sell/donate?)


Well, I can't talk about other leagues, but in MLB there are only two rules worth talking about: 1.10(a)&(b):

(a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2.61 inches in diameter at the
thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of
solid wood.

(b) Cupped Bats. An indentation in the end of the bat up to one inch in depth is
permitted and may be no wider than two inches and no less than one inch in
diameter. The indentation must be free of right angles and may not contain any
foreign substance.


Now, if you're talking about PHYSICAL rules (like "a 28oz 42" bat would look roughly like a chopstick and would probably break just by swinging it"), that's a good point. But I'd guess that if you need to cork to get around those issues, you've probably got other problems as well.

Anyway, I'm headed to class. Don't let them start the Justin Upton thread without me.
 
2013-01-24 12:39:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Well, I can't talk about other leagues,


I was thinking, apparently, of HS leagues. Oh well.

// and the removed conic section helps move the bat's center of gravity toward the handle, producing a more even swing
// thanks, wiki!
 
2013-01-24 12:40:01 PM  

digistil: Super Chronic: Why are so many people assuming McGwire wasn't on steroids right from the get-go? Not that Canseco is the most trustworthy source, but he described the bathroom stall sessions in vivid detail.

Because he had a sudden bulk up part way through his career, a la Bonds. Dude didn't look anything special the first few years.

/have loads of McGuire rookies in mint... probably worth nothing these days.


www.irisemedia.com

The change looks pretty incremental to me. Could easily be the difference between two years of steroids and ten years of steroids.
 
2013-01-24 12:41:49 PM  

Dr Dreidel: DeWayne Mann: Of course, that raises all sorts of other questions, like "why not just get a custom 30/35 bat," but, you know how it is.

I think there are rules about length vs weight. Something like the length in inches must be within X of the bat's weight in oz. So a 34" bat must be between (e.g.) 31 and 37 oz (assuming the delta can't be >3) - so corking takes a legal bat and makes it lighter.

// IIRC, this is part of the reason some bats have a conic section carved out of the top - shaves a few oz off the weight without losing length (or maybe they only do that to bats they sell/donate?)


It's called cupping, and that's exactly the point. It does change the balance though, while corking would change the balance less.
 
2013-01-24 12:57:44 PM  
He is Jesus after all

Some children see Him lily white
the infant Jesus born this night
Some children see Him lily white
with tresses soft and fair

Some children see Him bronzed and brown
the Lord of heav'n to earth come down
Some children see Him bronzed and brown
with dark and heavy hair
( with dark and heavy hair! )


i.huffpost.com
 
2013-01-24 02:23:06 PM  
Sammy, you're more likely to dip below 5% than you are to get to 75%. Be happy you're even on the ballot.
 
2013-01-24 02:29:48 PM  

NeoCortex42: Yeah, I've seen studies that look into that. I agree that a corked bat is probably not doing a lot to help a hitter, but I still think it's pretty bad that Sammy decided to use one in an attempt to get an unfair advantage.


The corked bat never actually got to me much. I know it's weird, but some types of cheating in baseball are more acceptable than others. Gaylord Perry, for example, has a reputation as the lovable, incorrigible scamp and he loaded up the ball so much you needed a hazmat team every time his turn in the rotation came up.

I think it ultimately comes down to how fast you can fix the problem and get back to playing ball, and in some cases, if it even creates an unfair playing environment. A scuffed ball, a corked bat, those take five seconds. Wipe your hands on your pants, get a new bat, and let's play ball. You're stealing signs, well, the other guy ought to have hid them better and he can change the signs besides. The groundskeepers doused the infield or cupped the foul dirt to keep balls in fair territory? Well, the other team can take advantage of that too if they're good enough. You can't tell a guy to wipe his human growth hormone on his pants.
 
2013-01-24 03:08:58 PM  
I'm not sure he has the resume, even ignoring the PEDs.

You have to look at a player's accomplishments in the context of their era. You don't look at a guy from pre-WWI and complain that he didn't hit many homers, because you know the ball was dead, the parks were huge, pitchers could scuff/mangle the ball, etc. Sosa played in an era where all of those factors were in the hitter's favor.

Sosa played in an era where everyone was clubbing tons of homers. And the homers are the only exceptional aspect of his game. He had a slow start, and he was done after age 35. If you look at him relative to his peers, he was among the better RFs of his era, but not a standout.

By bWAR, he's worth about +55 wins over a replacement player, and it's entirely based on offense-- he was a poor defensive RF who only made a cameo in CF. He's 190th all time in OPS+, which accounts for park and era, tied with Keith Hernandez, Moises Alou, Kent Hrbek, Tim Salmon, etc.

If you stack his whole career against other right fielders, he's very comparable to Andre Dawson (in, but shouldn't be), Dwight Evans, Bobby Bonds, Jack Clark, Dave Winfield (in, but borderline), Gary Sheffield, etc. in terms of total value. That's on the fringe, and his failed PED test, corked bat, and other "character clause" dings should be enough to keep him out.
 
2013-01-24 03:14:07 PM  

Gosling: I think it ultimately comes down to how fast you can fix the problem and get back to playing ball, and in some cases, if it even creates an unfair playing environment. A scuffed ball, a corked bat, those take five seconds. Wipe your hands on your pants, get a new bat, and let's play ball. You're stealing signs, well, the other guy ought to have hid them better and he can change the signs besides. The groundskeepers doused the infield or cupped the foul dirt to keep balls in fair territory? Well, the other team can take advantage of that too if they're good enough. You can't tell a guy to wipe his human growth hormone on his pants.


I don't see the bolded part as cheating, as it applies equally to both teams. It's no different than having different amounts of foul territory, a stadium at altitude, different fence distances and heights, adverse temperatures, etc.

Baseball is fairly unique among major sports in how it allows teams to have a "home field" advantage that is physical as well as psychological. The short right-field porch in Yankee Stadium is a simple example-- the Yankees consistently construct their roster to include left-handed sluggers. When they travel to Seattle, however, that's not such a great strategy.  It makes each location a little different, which is fun.
 
2013-01-24 03:26:38 PM  
Having a team retire your number is different from the HOF. The HOF should be based purely on how good you were. Team number retirement is where you can include all the other stuff - how good of a guy he was, how much the fans loved him, etc.

I wouldn't mind of the Cubs stayed away from Sosa because of how he left the team. He just couldn't keep it together for one last game and leave gracefully. He had to be the big star. If he wants to be welcome back to the Cubs organization, he needs to start making apologies and repair his image in Chicago.
 
2013-01-24 04:28:37 PM  
Nice work delaying the Upton thread, everyone. Job well done.

chimp_ninja: I'm not sure he has the resume, even ignoring the PEDs.


I go back and forth on Sosa. His OPS+ is shockingly low, but at his peak...man, what a peak. (Except for '97. What the heck happened then?)

My new favorite HOF evaluation site, hallofstats.com, gives him a 115 rating, which is good enough for their Hall. In terms of RF, that's between Andre Dawson (who, shockingly, is rated at 121) and Dave Winfield (who is at 112), so just about where you said.

To look at it using JAWS, he's the 18th best RF, right between Abreu & Ichiro, and just ahead of Winfield. Dawson is, for some reason, considered a CF by JAWS, but would be right ahead of Sosa.

So, yeah. I'm fine either way.
 
2013-01-24 05:06:48 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Nice work delaying the Upton thread, everyone. Job well done.


Ah crap, my TF sponsorship just expired today. I was gonna be all like "we TFers can tell you what's been greenlit" but alas.

Say, anyone wanna shell out $5 so I can go report back to DeWayne Mann when we're getting an Upton thread?
 
2013-01-24 06:05:45 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Nice work delaying the Upton thread, everyone. Job well done.


We may have reached our weekly quota for offseason baseball threads.
 
2013-01-24 06:58:45 PM  

Gosling: NeoCortex42: Yeah, I've seen studies that look into that. I agree that a corked bat is probably not doing a lot to help a hitter, but I still think it's pretty bad that Sammy decided to use one in an attempt to get an unfair advantage.

The corked bat never actually got to me much. I know it's weird, but some types of cheating in baseball are more acceptable than others. Gaylord Perry, for example, has a reputation as the lovable, incorrigible scamp and he loaded up the ball so much you needed a hazmat team every time his turn in the rotation came up.

I think it ultimately comes down to how fast you can fix the problem and get back to playing ball, and in some cases, if it even creates an unfair playing environment. A scuffed ball, a corked bat, those take five seconds. Wipe your hands on your pants, get a new bat, and let's play ball. You're stealing signs, well, the other guy ought to have hid them better and he can change the signs besides. The groundskeepers doused the infield or cupped the foul dirt to keep balls in fair territory? Well, the other team can take advantage of that too if they're good enough. You can't tell a guy to wipe his human growth hormone on his pants.


I agree with the general idea here, but I also think that it's not just how quickly and easily the problem can be fixed, but when you are doing the work involved. For example: I think corking a bat is worse than scuffing a ball - because when you're actually corking the bat, you're not in plain sight. You're doing it away from the umpires, away from the TV cameras, away from everything. Sure, you're using the illegal bat in front of people, but the work that went into making it illegal was hidden.

When you're scuffing the ball, you're doing it right in front of the umpires, the other team, the entire stadium full of fans (unless you're in MIami), and (nowadays) all the cameras that are zoomed in on your every move. Yes, scuffing can still be a very sublte action that's going to be really hard to catch, but at least it's still in front of people. If you're going to cheat, be a man about it.

/That sounds so much weirder in writing than it does in my head
 
2013-01-24 09:13:05 PM  

Joe_diGriz: DeWayne Mann: Nice work delaying the Upton thread, everyone. Job well done.

We may have reached our weekly quota for offseason baseball threads.


I submitted an Upton thread this morning, so...
 
2013-01-24 09:27:27 PM  
.. but it also looks like we're trying to hijack the latest superfluous Jets thread
 
2013-01-25 01:52:05 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Nice work delaying the Upton thread, everyone. Job well done.

chimp_ninja: I'm not sure he has the resume, even ignoring the PEDs.

I go back and forth on Sosa. His OPS+ is shockingly low, but at his peak...man, what a peak. (Except for '97. What the heck happened then?)


In '97, the entire Cubs team tanked (aside from Grace, only he knew the slumpbuster).


My new favorite HOF evaluation site, hallofstats.com, gives him a 115 rating, which is good enough for their Hall. In terms of RF, that's between Andre Dawson (who, shockingly, is rated at 121) and Dave Winfield (who is at 112), so just about where you said.

To look at it using JAWS, he's the 18th best RF, right between Abreu & Ichiro, and just ahead of Winfield. Dawson is, for some reason, considered a CF by JAWS, but would be right ahead of Sosa.

So, yeah. I'm fine either way.


By sheer numbers, I would put Sosa in. You can say everyone was hitting homers, but he still hit a lot by those standards.

Also, Dawson is now under-rated. I get why SABR stats don't like him, and there were legit holes in his game. But I don't think there was ever an article written that said, "Dawson should take more walks". I don't think his manager or team ever said "work the count more". He did what he was paid to do, and he did it very well.

And that arm...
 
2013-01-25 02:45:36 PM  

bacongood: Also, Dawson is now under-rated. I get why SABR stats don't like him, and there were legit holes in his game. But I don't think there was ever an article written that said, "Dawson should take more walks". I don't think his manager or team ever said "work the count more". He did what he was paid to do, and he did it very well.


His "hole" was "he made tons of outs". He had an OBP of .323 in an era where the league-average was .332. Calling that a "legit hole" is like saying "He was a great pitcher, other than giving up more runs than most pitchers."

bacongood: And that arm...


Sure, but how much does that help on a RF? In his prime, he averaged about 10 assists a year, vs. an average RF who might have 5. Some baserunners probably didn't go first to third or second to home on him. Ichiro has a cannon, and the best estimate on him is that his arm saved maybe 6-7 runs a year (all in) above an average RF.

It's good that Dawson had defensive value, but most of it was tied up in his early career in CF. By the time he went to RF, his knees were shot and he was roughly average overall. (As a simple example, he recorded fewer outs per 9 innings than the average RF, largely because he lacked range.) Being a good but not great defender is helpful to his case, but not enough to make up for the huge flaw in his offensive approach.

Very good player. Shouldn't be in the Hall. Wouldn't be in the Hall if he hadn't come to Chicago.

bacongood: But I don't think there was ever an article written that said, "Dawson should take more walks".


This is more of an indictment of sports journalism than anything, if it was true. That said, I'm sure someone in the baseball media noticed that Dawson was a hacker when he was routinely putting up AVGs in the .250 area.

I don't think his manager or team ever said "work the count more".

Then they were idiots. Heck, I heard that sort of thing in Little League. Swinging at crap out of the strike zone leads to making outs.
 
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