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(Talking Points Memo)   Fiscal Crisis Round 2: Sequestration. CUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 103
    More: Followup, crisis, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, bully pulpits, House Republicans, political coalition, debt limit, horse trading, public sphere  
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1088 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jan 2013 at 8:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 08:09:11 AM  
Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.
 
2013-01-24 08:18:03 AM  
BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.
 
2013-01-24 08:20:35 AM  
before we get started, let's remember how we got here: republicans holding america hostage over the debt ceiling in 2011. they are 100 percent to blame for this.
 
2013-01-24 08:21:44 AM  

nicholasneko: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.


This.
 
2013-01-24 08:22:01 AM  
So how retarded do you have to be to believe the GOP wants to cut spending while they fight the sequester cuts?
 
2013-01-24 08:22:10 AM  

BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.


Clearly, when you're a troll and don't understand economics, the solution is to drop a derpy comment and leave
 
2013-01-24 08:23:55 AM  

nicholasneko: Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.


We aren't gassing up our car to go to work, we're buying luxury goods. Wealth redistribution and the military have a very low ROI - education, infrastructure, and green energy have a far higher ROI. Guess where we're spending the vast majority of our money.
 
2013-01-24 08:25:27 AM  
As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.
 
2013-01-24 08:25:50 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: So how retarded do you have to be to believe the GOP wants to cut spending while they fight the sequester cuts?


The only cuts they don't want is defense cuts. I think they'll get their Medicare cuts if they accept Defense cuts.

The problem with the sequestration is that it's blind cutting. There isn't a problem with what programs are getting cut under it, it's the fact that there is no worthwhile cuts, it's just "we'll hack this shiat down 15% and call it a day".

Give the DoD an ultimatum to give Congress a cut of 15% but they decide what 15% they feel need to be cut, not the guys who have no idea what the DoD needs/wants

...oh wait, if they did that, then the DoD would get rid of all those Congressional "No, you must have this" projects that they don't want. Fark, you got rid of those and you'd probably get down to 15% anyway
 
2013-01-24 08:26:38 AM  
Financing things with an ROI less than one is bad for an entity. This is a universal truth, and is applicable to everything. It is possible that there are non monetary returns that are more difficult to quantify, but that doesn't change the monetary aspect of the equation. Yet for some reason, we insist on going further and further into debt to finance our safety net and military spending, neither of which have particularly high ROI.
 
2013-01-24 08:27:40 AM  

historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.


try being a student who finished, had a job during the summer and my last semester with the military and getting told that they can't hire you to a career yet because of the hiring freeze.

/gotta hold off on moving out a few more months now
//Really want to kick Congress in the collective gonads until they fix this
 
2013-01-24 08:27:44 AM  

MattStafford: nicholasneko: Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.

We aren't gassing up our car to go to work, we're buying luxury goods. Wealth redistribution and the military have a very low ROI - education, infrastructure, and green energy have a far higher ROI. Guess where we're spending the vast majority of our money.


Holy god, this.

I don't even want to know how much money was spent in the last decade on failed military projects that went nowhere...

Unless someone has a link, then I guess I would read it until I get too depressed.
 
2013-01-24 08:28:23 AM  

historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.


No offense intended, but what makes you thinking joining the military is becoming a productive member of society? What service are you providing in exchange for the tax dollars that would pay your salary? Do you honestly think our actions in the Middle East and soon to be Africa are worthwhile endeavors?
 
2013-01-24 08:31:43 AM  

somedude210: historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.

try being a student who finished, had a job during the summer and my last semester with the military and getting told that they can't hire you to a career yet because of the hiring freeze.

/gotta hold off on moving out a few more months now
//Really want to kick Congress in the collective gonads until they fix this


Well, my academic department was so pleased with my receiving a job offer (first in my entering class to receive one) that they rewarded my efforts by cutting all my funding. Now I have no timeline with this freeze and no funding. My plan at the moment is to just finish editing my dissertation so I can defend it and then plan to move back home to save money.
 
2013-01-24 08:34:43 AM  

MattStafford: historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.

No offense intended, but what makes you thinking joining the military is becoming a productive member of society? What service are you providing in exchange for the tax dollars that would pay your salary? Do you honestly think our actions in the Middle East and soon to be Africa are worthwhile endeavors?


I work in military research at a lab that develops equipment to better the lives of soldiers in the fields.

We're gonna be in a conflict somewhere in the world during most of our lifetimes, might as well make the lives of those who have to fight it a little bit better.

But please, go on about how we don't actually do anything worthwhile because "oooh, you're working for the military-industrial complex!!! OOGA BOOGA"

/not all military stuff is bad
//at least we're not contractors...
 
2013-01-24 08:35:05 AM  

MattStafford: historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.

No offense intended, but what makes you thinking joining the military is becoming a productive member of society? What service are you providing in exchange for the tax dollars that would pay your salary? Do you honestly think our actions in the Middle East and soon to be Africa are worthwhile endeavors?


I would be a civilian historian, a non-combatant, and the job entails locating this nation's Missing in Action so teams can go out and recover their remains, identify them, and return them to the families. My responsibility is to the fallen and the families to bring them closure.
 
2013-01-24 08:35:55 AM  

somedude210: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Clearly, when you're a troll and don't understand economics, the solution is to drop a derpy comment and leave


Sorry, I didn't realize I was dealing with someone who had their GED in economics.
 
2013-01-24 08:35:57 AM  

historynow11: Well, my academic department was so pleased with my receiving a job offer (first in my entering class to receive one) that they rewarded my efforts by cutting all my funding. Now I have no timeline with this freeze and no funding. My plan at the moment is to just finish editing my dissertation so I can defend it and then plan to move back home to save money.


what was the position for?
 
2013-01-24 08:36:34 AM  

nicholasneko: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.


Maybe you should take the bus and try to save a little money.
 
2013-01-24 08:39:26 AM  

BillCo: nicholasneko: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.

Maybe you should take the bus and try to save a little money.


So, you're okay with going into a little less debt in order to work to pay your debt.
 
2013-01-24 08:39:27 AM  

somedude210: I work in military research at a lab that develops equipment to better the lives of soldiers in the fields.

We're gonna be in a conflict somewhere in the world during most of our lifetimes, might as well make the lives of those who have to fight it a little bit better.

But please, go on about how we don't actually do anything worthwhile because "oooh, you're working for the military-industrial complex!!! OOGA BOOGA"


Alright, so you make our soldiers lives better - what service are our soldiers providing to the tax payers? Would we be better off with soldiers with better equipment, or just no soldiers in general?
 
2013-01-24 08:40:42 AM  

MattStafford: No offense intended, but what makes you thinking joining the military is becoming a productive member of society? What service are you providing in exchange for the tax dollars that would pay your salary? Do you honestly think our actions in the Middle East and soon to be Africa are worthwhile endeavors?


Don't like what the government is doing? You can either sit home and biatch about it and accomplish exactly zero, or you can work from within the system to bring about change and have your voice heard.
 
2013-01-24 08:42:14 AM  

historynow11: I would be a civilian historian, a non-combatant, and the job entails locating this nation's Missing in Action so teams can go out and recover their remains, identify them, and return them to the families. My responsibility is to the fallen and the families to bring them closure.


And unfortunately, that job isn't exactly vital to our economic well being. A military is a luxury that a rich country can afford. Your job is a luxury even for countries that have a military. Considering we're suffering a massive budget shortfall, why would we want to spend money searching for the remains of soldiers?
 
2013-01-24 08:42:38 AM  

MattStafford: somedude210: I work in military research at a lab that develops equipment to better the lives of soldiers in the fields.

We're gonna be in a conflict somewhere in the world during most of our lifetimes, might as well make the lives of those who have to fight it a little bit better.

But please, go on about how we don't actually do anything worthwhile because "oooh, you're working for the military-industrial complex!!! OOGA BOOGA"

Alright, so you make our soldiers lives better - what service are our soldiers providing to the tax payers? Would we be better off with soldiers with better equipment, or just no soldiers in general?


defense is necessary. Do we need to cut down on the amount of soldiers? yes, I don't believe we're in a position to be an occupational force anymore. That said, we still need basic defense. If you get rid of the soldiers entirely, then we're gonna have to implement a draft again. You really want that?
 
2013-01-24 08:43:13 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Don't like what the government is doing? You can either sit home and biatch about it and accomplish exactly zero, or you can work from within the system to bring about change and have your voice heard.


Who says I'm not? And how is that relevant to the added value of our military?
 
2013-01-24 08:43:41 AM  

BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.


Seeing that this time you've not threadshiatted and bailed...

Prove that the US is broke.

In debt, yes, but they're broke only as someone with a mortgage is broke.
 
2013-01-24 08:44:34 AM  

BillCo: nicholasneko: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.

Maybe you should take the bus and try to save a little money.


Riding the bus isn't free. Its quite possible putting gas in the car is a cheaper alternative to taking the bus depending on time, distance, and transfers.
 
2013-01-24 08:45:10 AM  

somedude210: defense is necessary. Do we need to cut down on the amount of soldiers? yes, I don't believe we're in a position to be an occupational force anymore. That said, we still need basic defense. If you get rid of the soldiers entirely, then we're gonna have to implement a draft again. You really want that?


We should have enough soldiers for defense. We shouldn't be an empire. The vast majority of MIC jobs are only necessary to support the empire, not for defense. We need to massively cut the military.
 
2013-01-24 08:46:35 AM  

Thats No Moose: In debt, yes, but they're broke only as someone with a mortgage is broke.


People with a mortgage are paying off their debt, not regularly increasing it. Also, people with a mortgage have something to show for their debt - what do we have?
 
2013-01-24 08:47:45 AM  

MattStafford: A military is a luxury that a rich country can afford.


A military is actually part of the reason most rich countries are rich.

Your job is a luxury even for countries that have a military.

This is not a true statement.

Considering we're suffering a massive budget shortfall, why would we want to spend money searching for the remains of soldiers?

Because who would want to join a military that advertises, "Hey don't get yourself blown up out there, because we're just going to leave the little bits laying around"? Don't take care of your people (even in death), and you'll quickly find yourself without much of a military. And while I certainly agree that right now, apart from the shooting Osama part, the running-around-kicking-down-doors-and-smiting-wedding-parties bit isn't exactly doing much to ensure my freedom, and the fact that we seem to be doing sweet fark-all about piracy, a country with no military isn't one I'd care to live in, for much the same reason I wouldn't want to live in a town with no law enforcement.
 
2013-01-24 08:49:20 AM  

MattStafford: And how is that relevant to the added value of our military?


Working with them is a way to bring about the value you desire them to have.
 
2013-01-24 08:50:35 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: And while I certainly agree that right now, apart from the shooting Osama part, the running-around-kicking-down-doors-and-smiting-wedding-parties bit isn't exactly doing much to ensure my freedom, and the fact that we seem to be doing sweet fark-all about piracy, a country with no military isn't one I'd care to live in, for much the same reason I wouldn't want to live in a town with no law enforcement.


This
 
2013-01-24 08:53:31 AM  
Wealth redistribution has little-to-no ROI?


Do you realize what poor people spend their money on?

EVERYTHING. From the very necessary (food/gas/medicine/housing) to the unnecessary (luxury-brand shoes/tvs).

Do you know what rich people spend their money on?

NOTHING. They have everything they need already, so they invest what they get and pay less tax than someone who works for a living.

What we have right now is a toxic combination of disincentives to find work and to hire. Our taxes are lower than that of the truer "socialist" nations, but no one wants to acknowledge that those socialist countries still have well-functioning economies and are doing better than we are at the moment.

Because 25% of their budget doesn't go to defense spending/playing world police while those countries where we are trying to build/install a "democracy" choose to deal with other countries when it comes time to monetize their resources.


If I had a choice between paying for an American kid's food or paying to defend Kabul just so they can sell their oil to China, i'd pay for the American kid's food and let China defend Kabul.
 
2013-01-24 08:55:49 AM  

MattStafford: People with a mortgage are paying off their debt, not regularly increasing it.


Lots of people with mortgages are increasing their debt. Credit cards, car loans... What an odd thing to say.

Also, people with a mortgage have something to show for their debt - what do we have?

Again, odd. Look around.
 
2013-01-24 08:57:02 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: A military is actually part of the reason most rich countries are rich.


Um, what? Maybe prior to the UN, but not anymore. Do you think Germany is doing really well because they have a military, or because they make stuff that people want? What about Scandinavia? The largest standing army is in Best Korea, and I don't see them winning any quality of life competitions.

Prank Call of Cthulhu: This is not a true statement.


Please explain how that isn't a true statement? Do you think the military in poorer countries in the Middle East or Africa have teams devoted to finding MIA remains? Obviously not.

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Because who would want to join a military that advertises, "Hey don't get yourself blown up out there, because we're just going to leave the little bits laying around"? Don't take care of your people (even in death), and you'll quickly find yourself without much of a military. And while I certainly agree that right now, apart from the shooting Osama part, the running-around-kicking-down-doors-and-smiting-wedding-parties bit isn't exactly doing much to ensure my freedom, and the fact that we seem to be doing sweet fark-all about piracy, a country with no military isn't one I'd care to live in, for much the same reason I wouldn't want to live in a town with no law enforcement.


Who the fark cares about how many people we have joining the military? The whole point of this argument is that the military is already too big!

And I'm assuming you live in a town that devotes something like half of all taxes collected to the police? And the police in your town are also positioned in 150 other towns, and every so often invade one of those towns for no real reason? And you think that this makes your town somehow stronger, or safer?
 
2013-01-24 09:00:22 AM  

historynow11: MattStafford: historynow11: As a student finishing up his degree program who received an email last night from the military branch hiring me that they have placed a hiring freeze across the board on all civilians, I would like to see the folks in Congress get their act together so I can take this job and be a productive member of society. Thanks.

No offense intended, but what makes you thinking joining the military is becoming a productive member of society? What service are you providing in exchange for the tax dollars that would pay your salary? Do you honestly think our actions in the Middle East and soon to be Africa are worthwhile endeavors?

I would be a civilian historian, a non-combatant, and the job entails locating this nation's Missing in Action so teams can go out and recover their remains, identify them, and return them to the families. My responsibility is to the fallen and the families to bring them closure.


I also work for the Army as a civilian. You may have to wait for a while, but keep bugging people and you'll get in. Where do they do that kind of work?
 
2013-01-24 09:04:30 AM  

MattStafford: nicholasneko: Well, if you need gas in your car to get to work so you can make money to pay your debt... Then yes, spending more is the answer.

We aren't gassing up our car to go to work, we're buying luxury goods. Wealth redistribution and the military have a very low ROI - education, infrastructure, and green energy have a far higher ROI. Guess where we're spending the vast majority of our money.


The military has a very high ROI. You're not thinking 4th dimension-ally. The ROI isn't high for society of course but for businesses that have contracts. For example, during the height of the Iraq war, the base I was stationed at brought in civilian security to guard the gates and such. Whoever owned that security company made out like bandits. So you see if we invest in the military, there is a trickle down effect on certain American companies.
 
2013-01-24 09:11:25 AM  

WSUCanuck: Wealth redistribution has little-to-no ROI?


Not sure if this post is a troll, but:

Poor people do spend a great deal of money, but that is irrelevant. Consumption does not make our country stronger. Investment does. People spending money on consumer goods is not investment.

Rich people also spend a great deal of money, but that is also irrelevant. I'm specifically talking about welfare and transfer payments financed by debt. I'm entirely for wealth redistribution.

The rest of your argument about the military I agree with - but welfare etc do not have positive ROI.
 
2013-01-24 09:12:16 AM  

MattStafford: Do you think Germany is doing really well because they have a military, or because they make stuff that people want? What about Scandinavia?


But without a military protecting them, would they continue to be successful? Isn't pretty much the entire history of humanity one in which a country decides (a) they like what's next door to them and (b) believes they can conquer those folks relatively easy, and so they skootch on over and start beating on them? Having a military makes (b) less likely. I like having a military. I agree it doesn't need to be as big as it is, but note one of your earlier comments offered zero soldiers as an acceptable alternative. This I disagree with.

The largest standing army is in Best Korea, and I don't see them winning any quality of life competitions.

True, but also not the point. My argument was that with no military protection, you don't have much shot at becoming a successful country. I never argued that a military is the necessary and sufficient condition.

Please explain how that isn't a true statement?

Because it doesn't conform to the facts?

Do you think the military in poorer countries in the Middle East or Africa have teams devoted to finding MIA remains? Obviously not.

They also don't tend to go half-way across the world to fight wars. It's usually right in their back yards. But all the countries with large militaries do indeed have teams devoted to forensic identification of remains.

Who the fark cares about how many people we have joining the military?

I do if zero people join. Which is what would happen if you gave up on recovering MIAs.

The whole point of this argument is that the military is already too big!

I do not disagree.

And I'm assuming you live in a town that devotes something like half of all taxes collected to the police? And the police in your town are also positioned in 150 other towns, and every so often invade one of those towns for no real reason? And you think that this makes your town somehow stronger, or safer?

This does not make a lot of sense.
 
2013-01-24 09:12:32 AM  

Thats No Moose: BillCo: Clearly, when you are broke and in debt, the solution is to spend more money.

In debt, yes, but they're broke only as someone with a mortgage is broke.


Most people with a mortgage don't expect their children to pay it off.
 
2013-01-24 09:13:49 AM  

Crunch61: Lots of people with mortgages are increasing their debt. Credit cards, car loans... What an odd thing to say.


And if that is the case, I'd consider them broke, or at least well on their way to being broke.

Crunch61: Again, odd. Look around.


I'm sorry, what am I looking at? What have the trillions we have spent on the military over the past few years gotten us? What have the trillions we have spent on the elderly gotten us?
 
2013-01-24 09:16:00 AM  

MyEnamine: The military has a very high ROI. You're not thinking 4th dimension-ally. The ROI isn't high for society of course but for businesses that have contracts. For example, during the height of the Iraq war, the base I was stationed at brought in civilian security to guard the gates and such. Whoever owned that security company made out like bandits. So you see if we invest in the military, there is a trickle down effect on certain American companies.


Yeah, at the expense of people paying taxes. That isn't an ROI for the country, it is an ROI for certain companies with contacts in the government. Every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent feeding our kids, and all that jazz. Or every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent at the Apple store. Just because a country is making out doesn't mean we are better off.
 
2013-01-24 09:16:28 AM  

MattStafford: WSUCanuck: Wealth redistribution has little-to-no ROI?

Not sure if this post is a troll, but:

Poor people do spend a great deal of money, but that is irrelevant. Consumption does not make our country stronger. Investment does. People spending money on consumer goods is not investment.

Rich people also spend a great deal of money, but that is also irrelevant. I'm specifically talking about welfare and transfer payments financed by debt. I'm entirely for wealth redistribution.

The rest of your argument about the military I agree with - but welfare etc do not have positive ROI.


Consumption *doesn't* make our economy stronger, but investment does? Investment in what? Investment in companies that *Sell* things?

If nobody's buying, where is the investment opportunity in companies that sell?
 
2013-01-24 09:23:24 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: But without a military protecting them, would they continue to be successful? Isn't pretty much the entire history of humanity one in which a country decides (a) they like what's next door to them and (b) believes they can conquer those folks relatively easy, and so they skootch on over and start beating on them? Having a military makes (b) less likely. I like having a military. I agree it doesn't need to be as big as it is, but note one of your earlier comments offered zero soldiers as an acceptable alternative. This I disagree with.


Which, if you bothered reading what I have written, I immediately clarified saying that I am in favor of a military for strictly defensive purposes.

Prank Call of Cthulhu: But all the countries with large militaries do indeed have teams devoted to forensic identification of remains.


Are you making the argument that North Korea has teams dedicated to teams identifying remains? And you mean that large militaries, the ones that can afford luxuries, are the ones with these teams? And the poor, small militaries do not have these teams? Seems pretty similar to exactly what I was saying.

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I do if zero people join. Which is what would happen if you gave up on recovering MIAs.


Well, that would certainly cause some people to not join, but zero people? I will simply have to not believe you.

All of this said, I have no issue with this being a part of the military. I have an issue with the scope and size of the military. If we reduced our troop size and reach, there would be dramatic drop in the need for teams of that nature. Which is what I'm getting at. We don't need these positions, because we don't need as big of a military as we have. If we operated on the same scale as Germany's military, how often do you think we would have to forensically identify remains?
 
2013-01-24 09:24:31 AM  

MattStafford: Yeah, at the expense of people paying taxes. That isn't an ROI for the country, it is an ROI for certain companies with contacts in the government. Every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent feeding our kids, and all that jazz. Or every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent at the Apple store. Just because a country is making out doesn't mean we are better off.


Yeah but the companies ROI is making us wealthier because those companies donate heavily to Republicans that refuse to budge on the DoD budget. A dollar spent at the Apple store is a dollar that doesn't put 8 cents in the pocket of a Republican politican, who is then poorer.
 
2013-01-24 09:25:34 AM  

MattStafford: historynow11: I would be a civilian historian, a non-combatant, and the job entails locating this nation's Missing in Action so teams can go out and recover their remains, identify them, and return them to the families. My responsibility is to the fallen and the families to bring them closure.

And unfortunately, that job isn't exactly vital to our economic well being. A military is a luxury that a rich country can afford. Your job is a luxury even for countries that have a military. Considering we're suffering a massive budget shortfall, why would we want to spend money searching for the remains of soldiers?


8.5/10; I damn near bit on this one.
 
2013-01-24 09:27:20 AM  

MattStafford: Are you making the argument that North Korea has teams dedicated to teams identifying remains?


No, but they do. In fact they've actually worked with the US on occasion to help find our guys.  http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/27/world/asia/north-korea-mia/index.html
 
2013-01-24 09:29:31 AM  

MattStafford: MyEnamine: The military has a very high ROI. You're not thinking 4th dimension-ally. The ROI isn't high for society of course but for businesses that have contracts. For example, during the height of the Iraq war, the base I was stationed at brought in civilian security to guard the gates and such. Whoever owned that security company made out like bandits. So you see if we invest in the military, there is a trickle down effect on certain American companies.

Yeah, at the expense of people paying taxes. That isn't an ROI for the country, it is an ROI for certain companies with contacts in the government. Every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent feeding our kids, and all that jazz. Or every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent at the Apple store. Just because a country is making out doesn't mean we are better off.


well, without a military, we wouldn't quite exist today. But I see your point about having a cold war sized military for a insurgency world and I'm not saying that we shouldn't cut the number of troops. We do, but there is much more to DoD then boots on the ground and you need to see that too. R&D has helped develop many modern techs that we take for granted now and they started with a military purpose. Like NASA developing tech of astronauts that we have for civilian use, the military research dept. develops many things that the civilians use years afterward.

Look at the internet. We couldn't be having this argument right now if it wasn't for DARPA. and you know what? It's now a civilian thing, has a great deal of commercial effects (we pay $5/month for this fark shiat) and it's almost to the point where we can get it for free, or at least next to nothing. There's your ROI for the military.
 
2013-01-24 09:29:59 AM  

WSUCanuck: Consumption *doesn't* make our economy stronger, but investment does? Investment in what? Investment in companies that *Sell* things?

If nobody's buying, where is the investment opportunity in companies that sell?


Investment in education, transportation, green energy. And yes, companies investing in technology as well. It sounds like the argument that you are making is: We give people money. People spend that money at Apple. Apple invests that money in making new and better products. While there is some merit to that argument, (particularly in this economic climate, where companies aren't investing anything) it still has a very small chance of having a positive ROI. Basically, just imagine what is happening and remove the middle man. If the government borrowed billions of dollars, and bought millions of iPads from Apple and distributed them to the people, would we be better off as a country? Don't forget to include the eventual tax to pay off all those iPads into your equation.
 
2013-01-24 09:33:19 AM  

somedude210: well, without a military, we wouldn't quite exist today. But I see your point about having a cold war sized military for a insurgency world and I'm not saying that we shouldn't cut the number of troops. We do, but there is much more to DoD then boots on the ground and you need to see that too. R&D has helped develop many modern techs that we take for granted now and they started with a military purpose. Like NASA developing tech of astronauts that we have for civilian use, the military research dept. develops many things that the civilians use years afterward.

Look at the internet. We couldn't be having this argument right now if it wasn't for DARPA. and you know what? It's now a civilian thing, has a great deal of commercial effects (we pay $5/month for this fark shiat) and it's almost to the point where we can get it for free, or at least next to nothing. There's your ROI for the military.



I'm fine with the government investing money in advanced R+D, where companies are afraid because the returns aren't guaranteed. I would prefer a prize based system (first person to demonstrate a cost effective method to do X wins a billion dollars, or whatever), but I have no real issue with R+D. That doesn't mean we need to have a trillion dollar military attached to that R+D.
 
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