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(Some Guy)   Remember that Huffington Post article about how terrible charter schools are? Yeah, seems they got all the facts and figures wrong. Other than that the story was fine   (michigancapitolconfidential.com) divider line 186
    More: Fail, HuffPost, charter schools, percentiles, CREDO, positive result, TPS  
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10441 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 4:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-24 12:28:55 AM
A NEWS SERVICE FOR THE PEOPLE OF MICHIGAN FROM THE MACKINAC CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY

Newsletter put out by a conservative think tank. Seems legit.
 
2013-01-24 02:01:52 AM
Charter schools and vouchers are proof that education works great when you get to hand pick your students or tell the retarded kids to eat sh**.

/I'm aware that some charter schools produce fantastic results and mostly attribute the lack of derptastic school boards and long term fixed asset costs (like athletic facilities) to success
//I live in a state that does it wrong, hence the bias
///Slashies longer than actual comment!
 
2013-01-24 03:20:51 AM
Dear Subby, The Huffington Post article did not say that charter schools were terrible. It said that, on average, they weren't performing much better than public schools in the same district and in some cases they were performing worse. The study supports that claim.
 
2013-01-24 03:24:34 AM
I'm sort of torn.  I understand that charter schools can be frickin' horrible, but at the same time my kid was incredibly lucky to get into a local charter school that is frankly awesome - it was actually started by parents, and is not for profit, and does a great job.  I love my charter but I can also see how awful they can be.  It's troublesome. I wonder if there is some way to fix charters rather than just outlaw them entirely.
 
2013-01-24 04:01:22 AM
As everyone should already know.

Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics

What don't you understand, subby?
 
2013-01-24 04:20:01 AM
My wrong interpretation is superior to your wrong interpretation!
 
2013-01-24 04:21:32 AM
While I don't like HuffPo I don't trust this source as far as I can throw the apartment building I live in.
 
2013-01-24 04:26:05 AM
Successful charter schools scare liberals because they show how non-union schools can do better by their students. Such schools make parents stand up and take notice and demand more money be spent funding charter schools. That money comes from the state education budget, and non-charter public schools lose that funding. Loss of funding means more union (Democrat) teachers out of a job.

It always comes down to money. It's never about the kids, as far as liberals are concerned.
 
2013-01-24 04:28:35 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Charter schools and vouchers are proof that education works great when you get to hand pick your students or tell the retarded kids to eat sh**.

/I'm aware that some charter schools produce fantastic results and mostly attribute the lack of derptastic school boards and long term fixed asset costs (like athletic facilities) to success
//I live in a state that does it wrong, hence the bias
///Slashies longer than actual comment!


That was sort of my interpretation of things from a lot of different sources.It would be nice if everyone could get a decent education.
 
2013-01-24 04:37:20 AM
I doubt that many of you have actually taught, let alone taught at regular public schools, charter schools, as well as credit recovery schools. I have, although my experience is limited to the dysfunctional state of Utah.

In general, charter schools here are schools of "last resort". Kids who get tossed from their regular public school seek out charter schools. While under the guidance of state regulations, extra money is profit for the founder/owner.

dnrtfa, but charter schools serve a purpose. They provide a chance for students to actually excel in a place that has a specific program that they are interested in. For example, the charter school I taught at had a specific focus on film. The students (at least 30%) were primarily interested in filmography. Charter schools fill voids that public schools do not.

Charter schools must follow most state regulations regarding teacher accreditation, state testing and such (with exceptions), but do provide specific opportunities that some students take advantage of in a good way.

Unfortunately, the majority of students take advantage of the system in the sense that discipline is nearly non-existent (each kid represents whatever state $ amount they are worth - here it is around $2600ish). Again, any extra money goes straight to the person running the damn place. There is not an incentive to toss kids to the curb....keeping in mind that a majority of the kids are there as a place of last resort.

If you are a parent, do your research. Visit, sit in on classes. Some charter schools may be absolute meccas of opportunity. Others, maybe not so much.
 
2013-01-24 04:44:29 AM

Osomatic: I'm sort of torn.  I understand that charter schools can be frickin' horrible, but at the same time my kid was incredibly lucky to get into a local charter school that is frankly awesome - it was actually started by parents, and is not for profit, and does a great job.  I love my charter but I can also see how awful they can be.  It's troublesome. I wonder if there is some way to fix charters rather than just outlaw them entirely.


Look, there are some great charter schools, just like there are some great (insert: public, private, parochial, etc) schools. If you have a child attending a good charter school in an area with bad public schools, I'm sure it's a god-send. But rather than focus our effort on improving charter schools, it makes much more sense to just create real reform for public schools. We don't need more "laboratories of innovation." There are decades of scientific literature addressing how to best teach children that is being systemically ignored. Ignoring a slightly bigger pile of information isn't going to make the problem better.

Charter schools are just ultimately a way for ideologically-driven people to create the sort of system they want rather than the one that most effectively teaches the most kids. Fixing them isn't the answer at all.
 
2013-01-24 04:45:46 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Charter schools and vouchers are proof that education works great when you get to hand pick your students or tell the retarded kids to eat sh**.

/I'm aware that some charter schools produce fantastic results and mostly attribute the lack of derptastic school boards and long term fixed asset costs (like athletic facilities) to success
//I live in a state that does it wrong, hence the bias
///Slashies longer than actual comment!


fyi: there is a major point of confusion between charter schools and private schools. I have met teachers who cannot tell the difference.

Charter school: state funded. The money that would have gone to the regular public school gets funneled to the charter school.

Private $chool: not state funded. Is not required to meet any guidelines in regards to accreditation (think of it as your typical religious school). Does not get state funding.

VOUCHERS are a way to collect taxpayer money and funnel it to private schools. The money you pay in taxes will go to some snowflake who cannot afford some private school, where they can receive whatever education the private school hands out (usually religious indoctrination is part of the program).

Even here in Utah the farktard legislative body passed a voucher program, and the people rose up and overrode that in a referendum ballot. That should tell you how outlandish the voucher concept is....60% or whatever here are Mormon (and a voucher program would have resulted in a whole lot of Mormon indoctrination schools).
 
2013-01-24 04:48:41 AM

fusillade762: A NEWS SERVICE FOR THE PEOPLE OF MICHIGAN FROM THE MACKINAC CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY

Newsletter put out by a conservative think tank. Seems legit.


SO MUCH TIHS!! The Mackinac center is basically fox news/teabaggers of michigan...
 
2013-01-24 04:56:50 AM

ArkAngel: My apartment building went up in flames about two years ago. It happened during a driving snowstorm and the firemen had been up the previous night dealing with a house that exploded. It's things like this that prove them to be heroes.

BTW, here's the pic of me that got sent out on the wire.

[www.baltimoresun.com image 325x510]


Gesundheit.
 
2013-01-24 05:00:29 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Ignoring a slightly bigger pile of information isn't going to make the problem better


But it's so much easier to let parents compete over the 1 or 2 good schools than to make policy changes that improve education for everyone.
 
2013-01-24 05:05:03 AM

profplump: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Ignoring a slightly bigger pile of information isn't going to make the problem better

But it's so much easier to let parents compete over the 1 or 2 good schools than to make policy changes that improve education for everyone.


Maybe, and I know this is going out on a limb here, but maybe, we could follow the educational lead of every other industrialized country on the planet and set education policy at the federal level by experts, rather than letting it be controlled by Mary Sue who ran for local school board when she found out they were telling little Susie about evolution. Crazy thought I know.

/yes, I know federally-elected Republicans would just fark it up.
//this is why we can't have nice things.
 
2013-01-24 05:08:02 AM
Anybody who looks at any news outlet, be it left, right or otherwise, as anything other than a source of entertainment or to see what agenda they're trying to push, deserves to be an uninformed rube.
 
2013-01-24 05:09:28 AM

powhound: VOUCHERS are a way to collect taxpayer money and funnel it to private schools.


What you say is 100% true. But vouchers are also a way for poor families to get their children out of whatever terrible public school the state has provided.

I agree it's not a good long-term plan, or good public policy, or efficient use of state revenues. I even agree that it can be detrimental to education (though if we applied reasonable standards to voucher-eligible schools it doesn't have to be). But it can also be a way to immediately and dramatically increase educational quality; while I would definitely favor other solutions, children currently in need of an education are still being screwed by the existing system, and vouchers can help.
 
2013-01-24 05:11:53 AM
PS. Except for news outlets that agree with my preconceived notions. They tell the unvarnished truth.
 
2013-01-24 05:20:09 AM
powhound:Even here in Utah the farktard legislative body passed a voucher program, and the people rose up and overrode that in a referendum ballot. That should tell you how outlandish the voucher concept is....60% or whatever here are Mormon (and a voucher program would have resulted in a whole lot of Mormon indoctrination schools).

Why did the people reject the idea?
 
2013-01-24 05:28:46 AM
That looks like a very fishy site.
 
2013-01-24 05:31:42 AM
So, this proves beyond a doubt we have been all 100% wrong all these years.
For the sake of the children we should all completely throw in the towel on public education and let the fundies, the money worshipers and any other group with a social agenda take over. because they are so much more "efficient" at it.

See how well we do with a bunch of elementary and secondary versions of "Bob Jones" and "Liberty Colleges".
 
2013-01-24 05:33:11 AM
You man people are still paying to educate their children? I thought they were perfect in every way and only needed self-esteem reinforcement until they turned 18 and then they magically become doctors and lawyers.
 
2013-01-24 05:37:55 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: For the sake of the children we should all completely throw in the towel on public education and let the fundies, the money worshipers and any other group with a social agenda take over. because they are so much more "efficient" at it.


Do it. More jobs for the rest of us.
 
2013-01-24 05:43:27 AM
Did they stress test for the air supply?

sounds scientific if you ask me
 
2013-01-24 05:45:35 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Successful charter schools scare liberals because they show how non-union schools can do better by their students. Such schools make parents stand up and take notice and demand more money be spent funding charter schools. That money comes from the state education budget, and non-charter public schools lose that funding. Loss of funding means more union (Democrat) teachers out of a job.

It always comes down to money. It's never about the kids, as far as liberals are concerned.


Yes, sweetie, it's the liberals who care about making money, private companies will do it for free! And of course we all know that teachers making $40k are bankrupting the country and should have their taxes raised and retirement slashed and medical costs raised, while people making $250k are just barely scraping by, and desperately need their taxes lowered.
 
2013-01-24 05:47:14 AM
Oh yeah -- forgot to ad that stupdieville is awash in a gang rape football team that has the sheriff - county prosecutor and other high profile types not wanting to (Hurt their Children ) theres of coarse)
 
2013-01-24 05:51:37 AM

ghare: while people making $250k are just barely scraping by, and desperately need their taxes lowered.


My sister has told me this with a straight face,her and her husband make over 250k a year,while I was sitting there thinking about how my mom,my fiance and me get by on under 17k a year. She was also living with us for free while buying tons of bullshiat and electronics online constantly. It still pisses me off.
 
2013-01-24 05:52:02 AM
opps== one thread off -- please excuse the outrage
 
2013-01-24 05:53:03 AM
AverageAmericanGuy: Successful charter schools scare liberals because they show how non-union schools can do better by their students. Such schools make parents stand up and take notice and demand more money be spent funding charter schools. That money comes from the state education budget, and non-charter public schools lose that funding. Loss of funding means more union (Democrat) teachers out of a job.

It always comes down to money. It's never about the kids, as far as liberals are concerned.

Fully realizing that you're a troll, can you please explain to me why you think it's more important to me, a godless liberal, that some teachers that I've never met stay in employment rather than my children get the best education possible? really. Please explain to me exactly the machinations that your brain goes through to output your little grogan of a grand conspiracy.
 
2013-01-24 05:54:10 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: profplump: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Ignoring a slightly bigger pile of information isn't going to make the problem better

But it's so much easier to let parents compete over the 1 or 2 good schools than to make policy changes that improve education for everyone.

Maybe, and I know this is going out on a limb here, but maybe, we could follow the educational lead of every other industrialized country on the planet and set education policy at the federal level by experts, rather than letting it be controlled by Mary Sue who ran for local school board when she found out they were telling little Susie about evolution. Crazy thought I know.

but mary sue is both a licensed real estate agent and on the church social committee!
 
2013-01-24 06:06:51 AM
It's Huffington so of course they're going to suck NEA union cock. In other news the sun is coming up in the east this morning.
 
2013-01-24 06:13:29 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Successful charter schools scare liberals because they show how non-union schools can do better by their students. Such schools make parents stand up and take notice and demand more money be spent funding charter schools. That money comes from the state education budget, and non-charter public schools lose that funding. Loss of funding means more union (Democrat) teachers out of a job.

It always comes down to money. It's never about the kids, as far as liberals are concerned.


That isn't an argument, and doesn't address the problems associated with charter schools.
The main problem with them is that they only "work" by filtering out the ineducable students that the public schools are forced to take. This is a serious crticism, and "Liberals don't like them because blah, blah, blah" doesn't answer that criticism - or any other.
Liberals like breathing - don't you think you should consider stopping the practice, since those damn Liberals like it so much?
 
2013-01-24 06:23:35 AM

fusillade762: A NEWS SERVICE FOR THE PEOPLE OF MICHIGAN FROM THE MACKINAC CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY

Newsletter put out by a conservative think tank. Seems legit.


Original article from an organization NAMED AFTER ARIANNA HUFFINGTON sound legit to you?
 
2013-01-24 06:31:33 AM
it was fake, but accurate.

graphics.boston.com
 
2013-01-24 06:33:34 AM
Subby obviously learned reading comprehension from a charter school
 
2013-01-24 06:34:49 AM

profplump: powhound: VOUCHERS are a way to collect taxpayer money and funnel it to private schools.

What you say is 100% true. But vouchers are also a way for poor families to get their children out of whatever terrible public school the state has provided.


Vouchers are a good way for poor families to get their children from a bad public school into some kind of private school if and only if all of the following conditions are met:

The voucher covers enough of the tuition (which they usually don't). Most voucher plans I've seen for South Carolina would knock off ~2 - 3 thousand off bills that reach 5 figures. That'll help someone on a minimum wage job a whole lot.
Private schools actually exist in the poor family's area (good luck if you live out in the rural boonies)
The school has extra seats available (and if they're such a good school, why aren't they already at full capacity?)
The school is willing to accept the child (ever had a discipline problem, learning impaired, or they just don't like you - the fark off)
And the parents can actually get the kid to and from the school without bussing. Which for wage-slave parents (especially those with a long commute to the school, see the boonies point), might be simply impossible.

Vouchers are meant to do one thing and one thing only. To make it slightly less expensive for parents who already have kids in private schools to continue sending their kids to those schools. I remember one article on fark about one of these plans written to apply them only to kids previously in public schools (in Louisiana IIRC). The effect was that the private schools ran classes for the parents on how to register their kid at the public school, pull him out a week later, and use that to get around the restriction.
 
2013-01-24 06:43:23 AM
All this union hate. Yeah, it's farked up that teachers make 125k, only work 25 hours a week, and have no standards they have to meet, but that's no reason to hate teachers.

Oh wait, that's right, the teachers I know work full time and usually take work home while having to meet all these certifications, all while not even breaking 30k.

You people are farking idiots.
 
2013-01-24 06:47:52 AM
i love herpderp education / charter school threads. i pretend each post represents thousands of parents POV and marvel at the stupidity.
 
2013-01-24 06:48:32 AM
Is there any endeavor at all where private enterprise doesn't perform circles around the government? Aside from burning million$ greasing its own wheels, that is. The government has elevated that to an art form.
 
2013-01-24 06:51:01 AM

HAMMERTOE: Is there any endeavor at all where private enterprise doesn't perform circles around the government? Aside from burning million$ greasing its own wheels, that is. The government has elevated that to an art form.


Governance.
 
2013-01-24 06:52:26 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Osomatic: I'm sort of torn.  I understand that charter schools can be frickin' horrible, but at the same time my kid was incredibly lucky to get into a local charter school that is frankly awesome - it was actually started by parents, and is not for profit, and does a great job.  I love my charter but I can also see how awful they can be.  It's troublesome. I wonder if there is some way to fix charters rather than just outlaw them entirely.

Look, there are some great charter schools, just like there are some great (insert: public, private, parochial, etc) schools. If you have a child attending a good charter school in an area with bad public schools, I'm sure it's a god-send. But rather than focus our effort on improving charter schools, it makes much more sense to just create real reform for public schools. We don't need more "laboratories of innovation." There are decades of scientific literature addressing how to best teach children that is being systemically ignored. Ignoring a slightly bigger pile of information isn't going to make the problem better.

Charter schools are just ultimately a way for ideologically-driven people to create the sort of system they want rather than the one that most effectively teaches the most kids. Fixing them isn't the answer at all.


That would be great if public schools weren't so busy putting kids into classrooms that represent distractions to learning to the majority of the class. If you can't maintain a teaching pace that keeps the kids interested because you have to focus so much attention to a few kids, you'll lose them all.
 
2013-01-24 06:59:42 AM

profplump: What you say is 100% true. But vouchers are also a way for poor families to get their children out of whatever terrible public school the state has provided.


Why don't we improve the terrible public school instead? Unless all of the kids move from the public school to the charter, we would still have the problem of the terrible public school.

However, here in MN, charter schools are actually public schools with no tuition. There is a whole "corporate sponsorship" thing that may be a problem. I just looked into it now.

I would be happy with public schools that specialize in certain things. There is a charter school nearby that is a "Math and Science Academy". I may look into that for my son when he is old enough.
 
2013-01-24 07:05:28 AM
My little brother went to a charter school and I was envious of him after it was all said and done. Walked out of the with his private pilots license and a few cysco certifications and now makes a living as a pilot in law enforcement. He excelled there and made awesome grades.

I went to the same high school eight years before him and when I was there it was a public school that was a piece of crap. None of the teachers seemed to give a fack and hardly any extra curriculum to speak of. Glad I was able to get out of that place after a few quarters and move onto a better school.
 
2013-01-24 07:13:25 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Charter schools and vouchers are proof that education works great when you get to hand pick your students or tell the retarded kids to eat sh**.


Go watch "Waiting for Superman"

Most if not all charter schools pick their schools via lottery and 800 parents are all too happy to sit in a Gym for 5 hours and see if their kid is one of the 34 or so that get their name picked.

HAMMERTOE: Is there any endeavor at all where private enterprise doesn't perform circles around the government? Aside from burning million$ greasing its own wheels, that is. The government has elevated that to an art form.


Military, law enforcement, patent law, a fair system of courts - all things that government is actually enumerated to do.

GameSprocket: Why don't we improve the terrible public school instead?


"improve" is the delicate word. To people like the NEA, improve means fatter contracts and pushing more money towards a 120 year old education model


Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Maybe, and I know this is going out on a limb here, but maybe, we could follow the educational lead of every other industrialized country on the planet and set education policy at the federal level by experts,


What is the litmus test for the so-called experts and why should a parent be told where to send their child to school? I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that the people who gave us "no child left behind" are going to be competent enough to run education for millions of kids in tens of thousands of communities around the country. The aggregate of tens of millions of parents making decisions with teachers and administrators at local and state levels is what produces a quality education. Ultimately a kid growing up in Iowa who is destined to work on farm machinery and is damn happy to do it is going to require a different school experience than a kid growing up in Palo Alto, CA.
 
2013-01-24 07:13:36 AM
Also wanted to add that my little brother was not a problem student. My mother had to enter a lottery to send him there, she was concerned with the quality of education at the high school he was suppose to attend, it was known for being subpar. Maybe that varies by state or something but at least here the charter schools are highly sought after due to the better academics and generally outperforming the public schools.
 
2013-01-24 07:13:37 AM
When I was a kid, a bunch of liberal, hippy parents tried to put together a Waldorf/Steiner charter school for kids who couldn't afford to go to private school. I thought that was pretty smart at the time... but then again I was twelve.
 
2013-01-24 07:15:18 AM
FTA: "A CREDO study on Michigan released this week found that 80 percent of charters perform below the 50th percentile of achievement in reading, and 84 percent perform below that threshold in math."

This observation appears on pages 35 and 36 of the study. As the study itself explains, Michigan public charter schools educate more low-income students, who tend to enter school at an academic disadvantage. It comes as no surprise then that most of them would fall below the state average based on raw test scores.


I think it is funny that when Charter School advocates talk about failing public schools point out inner city schools and the pro public school crowd counters by pointing out that there are other factors in inner cities. Now Charter schools are having the same problem and they're using the same response as public school advocates used.

Bottom line, Charter schools were implemented to solve a problem and they didn't solve it. Now they're just a bunch of corporate interests suckling on the taxpayer teat.
 
2013-01-24 07:16:19 AM
Charter schools have about another 10 years before everyone catches on to the scam.
 
2013-01-24 07:18:07 AM
Anytime you take away completely government/union control, liberals cry. News at 11:00.

If the over payed, under worked teachers did their jobs, would be no need for charter schools.
 
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