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(CBC)   Chief Theresa Spence to end hunger strike, with photo that says maybe the strike never started   (cbc.ca) divider line 68
    More: Obvious, Chief Theresa Spence, First Nations, New Democrats, Parliament Hill  
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11641 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2013 at 3:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-24 10:21:36 AM  
4 votes:
rustypouch:
Even so, it's hard to have sympathy for people who've been given tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money, can't say where it went, and then claim we're not giving them enough.

You don't have to have sympathy for the chiefs. I think some of them really are trying to make things better for the average Native... and some of them are just self-serving. Just don't lose sight of who this debate is really about: the kids trapped in poverty and abuse, the people living in substandard housing in terrible weather, with limited access to education and social services. Conditions on some Native reserves are truly appalling, and no, the status quo is not making that better. But governmental micro-managing the federal resources given to Natives is patronizing and robs them of hard-won sovereignty. And legislatively stripping them of their treaty rights for the benefit of foreign investment and resources development will not help them either. It's about fleecing them, yet again.

With Harper now operating unilaterally with a Parliamentary majority, I think Idle No More isn't just fighting for their rights... they're fighting for ALL Canadians who are sick of a government that does what it wants for the benefit of a privileged elite, and the greater good be damned.
2013-01-24 08:53:39 AM  
3 votes:
Dramatic lack of weight loss aside, I'd really like to know where the $90 million that the government gave her went while her people were freezing to death in tents made out of plastic bags!!
2013-01-24 05:52:03 PM  
2 votes:
If anyone is interested how our FN groups settle there differences, I offer this: Federal Court of Canada

here. Female inuit discriminated by Inuit leadership.
here. Counsel arguments over control of assests.
here. Female denied membership.
here. Band right to be consulted by Feds.

And those are just from Dec 2012.
Yes, I'm an FCC junkie. I've read everything from 2012. It is depressing to see how many FN bands take each other to court to solve issues like "who is really the Chief?", Counsellor discipline, voting results, fraud etc.
It really speaks to me that FN bands will never consolidate to meaningfully present their problems to the Canadian people.
Sad situation.
Back to the topic. Spence was a disaster to the cause of FN peoples.
2013-01-24 01:12:06 PM  
2 votes:
Injun? Really? Fark you. Go be a racist @sshole somewere else.Those names are a legacy of european census takers and residential schools.

Residential schools in Canada were not something that existed solely in the distant past. The last ones in BC only closed 30 or so years ago. The children who attended these schools were often subject to violent physical and sexual abuse. They didn't learn their culture, their language, but more importantly, they did not develop normal relationships with adults. As adults, they didn't know how to be parents. \

Yes, many of them are alcoholics, abuse drugs, and each other. Typical behaviour for victims of childhood abuse. And like other victims of childhood abuse, they often become abusers themselves. the difference here is the sheer number who became victims, and went on to victimize the next generation, who then passed it along. Add to that the lack of economic opportunity, not just for First Nations people on isolated reserves, but also those near population centres,along with the sort of endemic racism in evidence on this board, and they have very little opportunity to break the cycle.

Yes, there is often corruption among reserve governments. Elections are bought, there is rampant cronyism and nepotism. But as long as they stay quiet, the federal government, who is supposed to be looking out for the best interests of all First Nations people, not just the chiefs, looks the other way.The feds do not care, unless it hits the news, whereupon they look like they are taking action, at least until the cameras go away.

Yes, they need to find a way forward. A place must be made for them, if only in respect of the treaties signed. They weren't treated like a conquered people because they weren't conquered. They signed treaties, between nations. They trusted to the government and the crown (especially the crown) to see to their best interests as they gave way before the settlers. However, since the government and the crown didn't give a fark as long as they were out of the way, they were left to rot. The First Nations lived up to their side of the treaties. They signed the treaties, fought our wars, The government and crown did not, and ever since the First Nations been expecting us to the do the right thing. And we keep failing.

I don't think the treaty system serves their best interests, and never really did. They need to regain their culture, but as part of modern Canadian society. To do that is going to take a lot of healing, and a rebuilding of trust.
2013-01-24 12:52:28 PM  
2 votes:

kvinesknows: rattchett: kvinesknows: rattchett: That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't.

bullshiat.

name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am

Poor housing, poor water, lack of consolation with respect to use of their traditional lands.

the traditional lands thing is utter bullshiat. they need not be consulted because it is not their land and it never was.

poor housing? hey.. quit destroying the houses that are built and you will have enough stock to have everyone in a nice house.

Poor water? dont steal the parts from the machines and sell them. dont misuse funds meant for safe operation of the water systems and the water systems will keep working fine. Dont say "we dont have to follow water quality guidelines because we set our own rules" and more importantly// DONT DUMP YOUR SEWER before the water intake just so that you can siphon money off for your own pockets.


Aboriginal people have an aboriginal right to use Crown lands. If the crown does something to impact aboriginal use aboriginal users are entitled to consultation.

As far as the other two point-the Crown owes a fiduciary duty to aboriginal people to act in their best interest. That includes insuring their needs with respect to housing and clean water are met. The Crown does not get to ignore the plight of aboriginal people by blaming corrupt chiefs or band counsels.
2013-01-24 12:23:47 PM  
2 votes:
No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.
2013-01-24 11:22:22 AM  
2 votes:

GlobalStrategic MapleSyrup Reserve: No, you've established your point. We'd better act now if we want to stop Wolseley and kick MacDonald out of office.


You asked why Natives shouldn't feel betrayed. We gave you a record of betrayals. How many times do you have to be lied to before you get suspicious?

We aren't guilty for the sins of our fathers and they aren't trying to exact revenge for that. They want our government to finally stop acting towards them like some kind of subhuman children unworthy of consultation or cooperation and I say it's about time we owned up to our obligations and respected our roommates.
2013-01-24 11:15:09 AM  
2 votes:

kvinesknows: rattchett: That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't.

bullshiat.

name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am


I have two.

1. We signed treaties agreeing to take care of the people who helped us settle this land if they agreed to behave and follow our Crown's laws. We then went ahead and tried to genocide them by abducting their children and sending them to re-education camps to literally beat the red out of them. The program was such a "success" that the oral history and traditions of many of these groups were lost to time, and the kids who went to these schools didn't fit into either culture. You can guess how many of them grew into successful, responsible adults and parents.

2. When WW1, WW2 and Korea happened, Natives showed up in respectable numbers to fight for this country and its King/Queen despite owing allegiance to neither. As thanks, we denied them the benefits we extended to white veterans for no defensible reason.

This isn't about special treatment or getting something for nothing. This is about us keeping our word and respecting these people's rights to self-determination and subsistence in whatever way of life fits them. Building a pipeline through their land (well, the shiatty part of our land that we sent them to and let them call their own even though they aren't allowed to claim title or sell it) without even consulting them is pretty high-handed and they're right to be pissed off.

The problem with Spence is that she's fragmenting the INM message and providing an easy target for critics because of her flaws. Ad homs against her are taken by the press to be successful attacks against the Native movement as a whole, because one person totally represents a few hundred bands /rolleye


gsnfl: Maybe she dined on the 80 million dollars worth of missing receipts....

long story only found on CBC.


Because missing receipts automatically mean fraud and nepotism is totally avoidable in a town of a few hundred people. There's probably graft, it might even be above the baseline for a white city, but to hold up her dishonesty as the root cause of all the problems on this rez is disingenuous. It also doesn't explain how a lot of other such places are basically third-world camps on snow instead of sand.

Also, there would be a housing crisis in Attawapiskat even if all of the money the government sent was spent only on housing instead of all of the other things to do with running the rez. Life in the North is farking expensive.

The Natives do bear some of the blame here for the way money has been managed, no question, but we caused a lot of this problem and we're not doing a hell of a lot to solve it. The idea to send in government inspectors to pore over their books and take financial control is basically just re-colonizing the rez so of course they aren't going to agree to that.
2013-01-24 10:54:33 AM  
2 votes:

kvinesknows: name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am


1) On June 11 and 20, 1981, the Quebec Provincial Police conducted controversial raids on the reserve to stop the Mi'gmaq from asserting their control over their native fishery. Federal Indian Affairs Minister John Munro was among those critical of the manner in which the Quebec government and provincial minister Lucien Lessard had acted. All convictions resulting from the arrests were eventually overturned.[1]

2) The system was designed as an immersion program: in many schools, children were prohibited from (and sometimes punished for) speaking their own languages or practicing their own faiths. In the 20th century, former students of the schools have claimed that officials and teachers had practiced cultural genocide and ethnocide. Because of the relatively isolated nature of the schools, there was an elevated rate of physical and sexual abuse. Corporal punishment was often justified by a belief that it was the only way to "save souls", "civilize" the savage, or punish runaways who, if they became injured or died in their efforts to return home, would leave the school legally responsible for whatever befell them.

3) Living conditions for Indigenous people in the prairie regions deteriorated quickly. Between 1875 and 1885, settlers and hunters of European descent contributed to hunting the North American Bison almost to extinction; the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway brought large numbers of European settlers west who encroached on former Indigenous territory. European Canadians established governments, police forces, and courts of law with different foundations than indigenous practices. Various epidemics continued to devastate Indigenous communities. All of these factors had a profound effect on Indigenous people, particularly those from the plains who had relied heavily on bison for food and clothing. Most of those nations that agreed to treaties had negotiated for a guarantee of food and help to begin farming.[70] Just as the bison disappeared (the last Canadian hunt was in 1879), Lieutenant-Governor Edgar Dewdney cut rations to indigenous people in an attempt to reduce government costs. Between 1880 and 1885, approximately 3,000 Indigenous people starved to death in the North-Western Territory/Northwest Territories.[70]

Should I continue?
2013-01-24 10:17:54 AM  
2 votes:

Discordulator: The timing of the report leaking was suspect, at 3 days before her meeting the pm. Her moving the meeting with the pm was also suspect, as the pm wanted to meet about 3 days after the report was already due to be released to the public.


1) Chief Spence received the Deloitte report in August. She had plenty of time to come up with some explanation as to where at least some of the money went. The fact that she couldn't come up with anything speaks to her incompetence.

2) The government was required to release the report publicly, which they did with only a few days to spare. Even if they had released the report in August, it wouldn't have changed any of the facts surrounding the audit.

3) Let's say your town's mayor came to you and said, "We don't have any documentation on about 80% of our purchases. But everything's above board, you can trust me on that." Would you be willing to take his/her word for it?

A lot of people who rightly take Harper to task for being less than transparent seem to be letting Chief Spence off the hook. So far, the only rationale I can find for that is 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
2013-01-24 10:09:08 AM  
2 votes:

rattchett: That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't.


bullshiat.

name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am
2013-01-24 09:57:06 AM  
2 votes:

No Such Agency: rickane58: randomjsa: Never have quite understood hunger strikes.

You're going to refuse to eat until such a time that your demands are met? Torturing yourself to death slowly. That will show em.

They're actually a quite effective way of getting the public opinion on your side.

The CBC report this morning said "Spence does not seem to have public opinion on her side; only blah blah % of Canadians say they believe her actions will result in meaningful change" or something like that. Not that they didn't sympathize, mind you, just that they didn't believe it'd generate positive results.

Claiming a "moral victory" against a weasel like Harper isn't difficult. He's always wrong. It's a lot harder to force him to back down from something his party has decided to do.


Yep. Harper's a slimy little thing, and there's almost nothing he's done in office that I agree with. I'd side with whoever he's against, just on principle.

Even so, it's hard to have sympathy for people who've been given tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money, can't say where it went, and then claim we're not giving them enough.
2013-01-24 09:23:53 AM  
2 votes:

gsnfl: Maybe she dined on the 80 million dollars worth of missing receipts....

long story only found on CBC.


Yeah, the stupid thing about that talking point is it keeps coming up even though no one understands that there are *no accounting firms on their native reserve*. It's not like Deloitte or some major firm is going to open offices in a village of a few hundred. When they asked the government to help bring in accountants to handle bookeeping, they refused unless they also got to control how the money was spent. So, they either spent millions building business infrastructure to get accountants (which $80 million requires a lot of accountants to track properly), or on their own people and let the bookeeping get a bit sloppy.

The only thing I don't fully understand is how people think she's sitting on millions of dollars herself. If the government and tax authorities don't even think she stole money (if they did she'd be up on charges, not getting random political accusations), and she's starving herself to get more services (not more *money*, but more infrastructure & services), why wouldn't she just fake her own death and fark off to some foreign tropical island for the rest of her life? Rich people don't make choices like this.
2013-01-24 09:05:01 AM  
2 votes:
Most of us are getting a wee bit tired of the moaning by the natives. Spence started her strike as a ploy to deflect an ongoing scandal in her own town. She and her counsellors squandered millions of taxpayer dollars on unessential and non-traceable spending. She lived comfortably while most of her people lived in shacks.
There is no difference between between one group of humans and another. If you have the means of getting fat  and receiving money, you will not share it with others in your same group.
Greed and a "me first" attitude crosses all ethnic and socio-economic bounds, whether your a Canadian bank executive or a Chief of an Indian band.
Most Canadians have sympathy for the native Canadians situation, but after giving them land, support and billions of unearned money, most of their complaints fall on deaf ears.
2013-01-24 06:55:58 AM  
2 votes:
Her hunger strike actually worked. It began a movement which brought First Nations' concerns back to the front burner. I usually can't stand extremists, but in this case I supported her. Our government is the most arrogant, heartless, and power hungry we've ever had. I loved seeing them get egg on their face.
2013-01-24 06:54:41 AM  
2 votes:
I am still trying to figure out if she's for real or not.

That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't. And things are only going to heat up more when lawsuits by non-status Indians and Metis start hitting the courts.

The result will be a fair number of non aboriginal Canadians getting pissed off by what they perceive as a select segment of the population getting a free ride, without recognizing that Canada, which is a perpetual person, made a deal and that the deal is permanent -- there is no sunset clause.

Breaking the treaties would result in the aboriginal people being treated as conquered and Canada being a conqueror. Which does not fit into the Canadian psyche.
2013-01-24 08:03:15 PM  
1 votes:
So i grew up in a rural community in north alberta and we are close to a few reserves...

Wholy Whorls of crap the corruption and poverty in those communities is terrible. They dont have flush toilets. Well -- the chiefs and their friends do but most people don't. The communities are run down. They build new houses all the time but the residents treat it like shiat and after 5 years the building is worthy of being condemned. The substance abuse is out of control. One of my coworkers fired a native guy for doing a spike of heroin right on the job site. We cant give our native based crews black electrical tape because they chew it to get high. They spray lysol on bread and eat it. I have had to supply crews of native workers with their gear at 8AM and they reeked of mouthwash. Not booze. Mouthwash.

The government can only do so much to help them without being accused of assimilation attempting to subvert their cultural independence. So... What is there to do? I know a good few people who moved off the reserve and wont let natives on their property. --- And these guys are native themselves. They all say sort of the same thing. They are culturally obligated to share with their family. They cant be successful living on the reserve because they don't own their own property and their scuzz of the earth family members bleed them dry like to many ticks on an old moose. -- If they help one person out before they know it they will have a house filled with drug addicted 4th cousins and half brothers who just treat it like a free ride.

Whats to be done? My boss is dark -- like she looks full native. She cant get status. Her boss is a blue eyed white guy and he has his card. Its farked up. Part of the farked up thing about it is (contrary to what many seem to belive) There is not a white conservative guy in the FN office denying or approving people based on some evil subversive metric. More likely someone in their family has a beef with your family and its all about power. Some of the reserves really seem to be run like fiefdoms. Patronage is the currency of the reserve. You scratch my back i'll scratch yours.

The Idle No More movement is just a way for rich chiefs to drum up support for themselves and obscure the real issues. Its a way to take focus off local government and paint the federal government as the author of their misery.

Bah.
2013-01-24 07:15:41 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: the traditional lands thing is utter bullshiat. they need not be consulted because it is not their land and it never was.


Wow you're stupid.

*ignore*
2013-01-24 05:29:49 PM  
1 votes:

FTDA: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

This. My Dad was of German decent. My mother was a Cherokee; not half, not a quarter, but a full blooded Cherokee. That makes me a, "half breed." I don't know much about my Native culture or which tribe she was from because she died when I was young and my father didn't stay in touch with her family. I suppose I could have applied for what some people call, "Indian Money," or gotten grants for school but I didn't. I was raised boot strappy, served in the Army after high school and made my own way through college. Everything I have, I worked for.


you should still check it out, so your kids can know their history if nothing else
2013-01-24 05:26:25 PM  
1 votes:

FTDA: kvinesknows: FTDA: hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?

Wilma Mankiller would like a word with you. FYI, squaw is how you say b*tch or c*nt to a Native American woman.

/not being preachy, just being informative.

LOL.. my wife considers squaw even worse then biatch. but not as bad as coont.. at least based on how angry she gets. ( crazy indians )

There's one in every Teepee.


Actually, three. One on the buffalo hide, one on the deer hide, and the most valuable one on the hippopotamus hide.
2013-01-24 05:24:48 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?

yeah.. thats a HUGE misconception. Its not always paid for.. AND when it is.. well quite frankly there is alot of favourtism involved. Its not a huge bottomless bucket of money for education. Its limited.


Or maybe your father was non-native, or you are non-status/off the reserve? The Indian Act is not only paternalistic, it's sexist, too. It is also regularly gamed in this fashion in order to secure the status of the status.

For the record, it's why I have dual citizenship despite not having been born in my father's country of birth. My mother's country of birth didn't factor in. The situation is analogous to "Native Dad, not bad, native mum, white scum".
2013-01-24 05:20:05 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: FTDA: hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?

Wilma Mankiller would like a word with you. FYI, squaw is how you say b*tch or c*nt to a Native American woman.

/not being preachy, just being informative.

LOL.. my wife considers squaw even worse then biatch. but not as bad as coont.. at least based on how angry she gets. ( crazy indians )


There's one in every Teepee.
2013-01-24 05:09:49 PM  
1 votes:

ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?


Probably for the same reason I did. Pride, and taking the high road and the feeling of accomplishment that comes along with it.
2013-01-24 05:02:03 PM  
1 votes:

Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.


This. My Dad was of German decent. My mother was a Cherokee; not half, not a quarter, but a full blooded Cherokee. That makes me a, "half breed." I don't know much about my Native culture or which tribe she was from because she died when I was young and my father didn't stay in touch with her family. I suppose I could have applied for what some people call, "Indian Money," or gotten grants for school but I didn't. I was raised boot strappy, served in the Army after high school and made my own way through college. Everything I have, I worked for.
2013-01-24 04:23:30 PM  
1 votes:

FTDA: hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?

Wilma Mankiller would like a word with you. FYI, squaw is how you say b*tch or c*nt to a Native American woman.

/not being preachy, just being informative.


LOL.. my wife considers squaw even worse then biatch. but not as bad as coont.. at least based on how angry she gets. ( crazy indians )
2013-01-24 04:15:19 PM  
1 votes:

hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?


Wilma Mankiller would like a word with you. FYI, squaw is how you say b*tch or c*nt to a Native American woman.

/not being preachy, just being informative.
2013-01-24 03:40:47 PM  
1 votes:
I am native and my aunt was killed at a residential school and the death was covered up, and my mom was a victim of horrible abuse there, which eventually help lead to her death , so I am not getting a kick out of these replies.
2013-01-24 03:14:40 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: rattchett: kvinesknows: you guys REALLY need to read the treaties, not just what someone tells you they mean.. but actually read them

Actually, I studied aboriginal law.

goodie for you.

Study the treaties. read the words, not what you want the words to be


The treaties are interpreted by the courts and that is what I am relying upon. What, aside from your interpretation of the treaties, are you relying on to come to the conclusions you have? Have you read aboriginal law decisions of the SCC? What cases are you relying upon to form your decision?
2013-01-24 03:03:53 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: you guys REALLY need to read the treaties, not just what someone tells you they mean.. but actually read them


Actually, I studied aboriginal law.
2013-01-24 02:49:43 PM  
1 votes:

rattchett: kvinesknows: ahh ... see now you are bringing BC into it. THATS an entirely different matter. ( seriously) and one of the reasons so many things get confused in regards to treaty rights and responsibilities.

The duty to consult, and in the case of an established right (or a strong prima facie right) accommodate, is not unique to BC. It is a duty of government in dealing with aboriginal people and their rights. It is rooted in the treaties, the Charter and the Crown's honour. The decisions i cited are just the most recent recognition of the Crown's duty to govern with regard to how land use will affect aboriginal interests.


Yes. The Charter takes precedence over all other Canadian law. Then comes First Nations Treaties. Then International Treaties, then the rest of federal law. The government cannot sign an international agreement if it violates any First Nations treaty.
2013-01-24 02:10:40 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: rattchett: Aboriginal people have an aboriginal right to use Crown lands. If the crown does something to impact aboriginal use aboriginal users are entitled to consultation.

nope.. you are wrong


See:

Council of the Haida Nation v. British Columbia; and
Taku River Tlingit First Nation v. Minister of Forests.

Also see:

Clarifying the Role and Responsibilities for Aboriginal Consultation and Accommodation Within DND/CF
By LCdr Ken Osborne DND/CFLA LAS

where the author states:

... the Court recognized that the duty of governments to consult with, and where appropriate, to accommodate the interests of Aboriginal peoples can arise before claims of aboriginal rights and title are determined. The source of this duty, the Court noted, is the "honour of the Crown".

and

As a practical consequence, these decisions are forcing the Crown to be proactive in its consideration of the "aboriginal perspective" when evaluating the potential affects of its land use decisions.
2013-01-24 02:03:35 PM  
1 votes:

ObscureNameHere: kvinesknows: ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?

yeah.. thats a HUGE misconception. Its not always paid for.. AND when it is.. well quite frankly there is alot of favourtism involved. Its not a huge bottomless bucket of money for education. Its limited.

Thanks for the somewhat more civil response that certain other folks....

I had thought the tuition funding was automatically available from the government for native students to use. So yes, it is a misconception that I had, as I was not aware of the complicating factors.


yeah.... MANY ( if not most ) if you dont live on reserve.. you are NOT getting funding.
IF its between you and someone with a relative on council.. you are NOT getting funding
if they just dont like you. you are NOT getting funding.

if you are going to take a course they dont like... you are not Getting funding.
2013-01-24 02:02:41 PM  
1 votes:

GlobalStrategic MapleSyrup Reserve:
About that, I never asked. I am native, a Chippewa, though I live away from the reserve. In my own experience the Canadian and Ontario governments are TOO cooperative with native affairs. The result is a culture that feel they are all victims and deserve everything the government will give them and more. Growing up among people who cry out about abusing the environment then smash empties on the sides of roads and dump trash on their own property you get to learn the hypocrisy a lot of people carry. There's always an upset that their rights are being stomped all over but when the government gets involved many become uncooperative. They just want to be given something or for funding to go to the band office to be given to them. As long as there is a sense of victory in the end. It's something I never wish to be a part of but would do whatever I can to help repair. The first step in my mind is for white guilters to stop encouraging an entire culture to claim they're being victimized, it's bad enough their families have already saddled them with it.


Very interesting! On our side of the fence we blame this excessive cooperation (or tolerance of bullshiat) on the way we handled Dudley George.

Honest question, would it be possible for Whitebread Honkeyhat to go to a rez and talk to some ordinary people about stuff? I'm stupendously uneducated when it comes to What Natives Think and how things are, but at the same time their home is not a petting zoo.
2013-01-24 02:00:42 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?

yeah.. thats a HUGE misconception. Its not always paid for.. AND when it is.. well quite frankly there is alot of favourtism involved. Its not a huge bottomless bucket of money for education. Its limited.


Thanks for the somewhat more civil response that certain other folks....

I had thought the tuition funding was automatically available from the government for native students to use. So yes, it is a misconception that I had, as I was not aware of the complicating factors.
2013-01-24 01:57:16 PM  
1 votes:

rustypouch: Mystery Vortex: ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?

Because it wasn't an option. What part of that was hard to understand?

Very few bands provide funding for education. Even fewer provide anywhere near enough to get through programs.

It seems to me that the funding comes from direct from federal sources, with the band just taking care of administration. http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100033682/1100100033683#fina

You seem bitter about paying your own way, treated the same way the rest of us are...


again.. its a limited pool of funding.
2013-01-24 01:54:15 PM  
1 votes:

rustypouch: Mystery Vortex: ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?

Because it wasn't an option. What part of that was hard to understand?

Very few bands provide funding for education. Even fewer provide anywhere near enough to get through programs.

It seems to me that the funding comes from direct from federal sources, with the band just taking care of administration. http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100033682/1100100033683#fina

You seem bitter about paying your own way, treated the same way the rest of us are...


Being alternately thought of as "one of the good Indians" and "that prick he must get everything for free" would make me sound like that too.
2013-01-24 01:36:17 PM  
1 votes:

ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?


yeah.. thats a HUGE misconception. Its not always paid for.. AND when it is.. well quite frankly there is alot of favourtism involved. Its not a huge bottomless bucket of money for education. Its limited.
2013-01-24 01:32:31 PM  
1 votes:

ObscureNameHere: Mystery Vortex: No matter what you think of Spence, the outpouring of racist attitudes and ignorance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm First Nations. I've never gotten anything for free from anyone. I worked and paid my way through college, work full time now, pay all my taxes, and have to pay for hunting and fishing licenses. So does every other native person I know. All this "natives get all the handouts" bullshiat is government propaganda to make us look like uneducated layabouts and make them look like the heroes who keep being taken advantage of.

fark all you racist shiatbags. People like you are the reason why Idle No More is a thing.

Not trolling, honest question on the bolded bit above: why did you pay for college if having it paid for was an option?


Because it wasn't an option. What part of that was hard to understand?

Very few bands provide funding for education. Even fewer provide anywhere near enough to get through programs.
2013-01-24 12:52:40 PM  
1 votes:
She is a disgrace to Native Americans everywhere. After she receives FREE HEALTH CARE for a SELF INDUCED CONDITION, she'll head back to her well heated, insulated house and have a steak and potato dinner with wine, while her people freeze and go hungry.

I wish someone woulda shot this chick right in the box.
2013-01-24 12:47:04 PM  
1 votes:

SuperNinjaToad: Forget her weight.. I'm far more disappointed that she looks like a typical middle Republican woman. She doesn't look Injun and sure as heck doesn;t have an injun sounding name! WTF?


umm spence is a very injun name.. at least here in Canada. and she looks plenty indian for her tribe. (hint different tribes look very different because they are completely different)
2013-01-24 12:46:28 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: Flakeloaf: So you deny that systematic marginalization and genocide are in any way responsible for the problems they have today,

1 100% deny it. GROW UP YOU LAZY farkWADS


So those lazy indians just need to pull harder on their moccasinstraps. Man I'm gonna enjoy this website without reading your crap.
2013-01-24 12:39:05 PM  
1 votes:

SuperNinjaToad: Forget her weight.. I'm far more disappointed that she looks like a typical middle Republican woman. She doesn't look Injun and sure as heck doesn;t have an injun sounding name! WTF?


fark you too ignorant asshole. Native people aren't all brown with a hook nose and straight black hair. Do you realize there's been 600 years of intermixing with Europeans? Check out Metis people sometime. A lot of them look white.

"Injuns"? Go die.
2013-01-24 12:29:49 PM  
1 votes:

rattchett: kvinesknows: rattchett: That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't.

bullshiat.

name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am

Poor housing, poor water, lack of consolation with respect to use of their traditional lands.


Consolation should read consultation.
2013-01-24 12:28:01 PM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: rattchett: That said, aboriginal people in Canada have legitimate reasons to feel betrayed by the gov't.

bullshiat.

name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am


Poor housing, poor water, lack of consolation with respect to use of their traditional lands.
2013-01-24 12:10:27 PM  
1 votes:

indarwinsshadow: I grew up with First Nations people.


*nod* I taught at a reservation school for a while, and know many people who were directly impacted by some of the atrocities I brought up earlier. They're good people. But it doesn't take long to start seeing signs of the long term damage that all of that bullshiat has done to them. And the suicide rate in that community is so out of proportion with the rest of the local population, it's staggering.
2013-01-24 12:05:30 PM  
1 votes:

indarwinsshadow: 3) Nonsense. That's 140 years ago. FN where not even recognized as "people" by the gov't of the day.


Thank you for admitting that First Nations folk have little reason to trust the federal government, for reasons both recent and historical; a government who at one time didn't even recognize them as people. I can see that this was hard for you.

kvinesknows: k. get back to me when you do have something current.


Your admission of 'got nothin' ' is similarly noted.
2013-01-24 11:56:20 AM  
1 votes:
Calmer now. Let me just say it bugs me when people go off on what they think they know, and the realities of life on reserves and how FN people are treated. I grew up with First Nations people. You just do if you're anywhere north of Sudbury, and again I have first hand knowledge... They're like everyone else. There's good and bad people. Unfortunately, there's way to much abuse of children by a disproportionate number of first nations people's. There's also too much drug and alcohol abuse to be easily explained away by "loss of culture or identity". It's nonsense. It's an easy excuse to say "I like to get high and screw my kids" It's f*cking horrible. I'm not saying all reserves are bad. Sure, there's lot of good reserves. But, a small percentage of reserves are destroying the reputation of reserves and FN people across Canada. Theft is theft after all. Stealing from your own people is the lowest. Spence is a sh*t bag from the evidence I've read about.
Idle No More is something different and should be getting a lot more attention. I don't agree with the tactics being used (blocking highways, threatening to blow up pipelines). That's terrorism and shouldn't be tolerated. I do agree with their complaints that they're getting a raw deal from the gov't. Spence has co-opted the movement for her own aims.


....re-read my post and it's rambling but I guess I'm still pissed off.
2013-01-24 11:54:19 AM  
1 votes:

kvinesknows: so.... nothing current? k. get back to me when you do have something current.


So you deny that systematic marginalization and genocide are in any way responsible for the problems they have today, and that the Native governments shouldn't feel in any way trepidatious about trusing the Crown's government to manage their mutual affairs responsibly? Because I'm pretty sure a Chief who suggests that would be turfed out on his arse.
2013-01-24 11:26:45 AM  
1 votes:

MooseUpNorth: kvinesknows: name three reasons you feel are legitimate. I will refute them. You better be prepared with facts because I sure as hell am

1) On June 11 and 20, 1981, the Quebec Provincial Police conducted controversial raids on the reserve to stop the Mi'gmaq from asserting their control over their native fishery. Federal Indian Affairs Minister John Munro was among those critical of the manner in which the Quebec government and provincial minister Lucien Lessard had acted. All convictions resulting from the arrests were eventually overturned.[1]

2) The system was designed as an immersion program: in many schools, children were prohibited from (and sometimes punished for) speaking their own languages or practicing their own faiths. In the 20th century, former students of the schools have claimed that officials and teachers had practiced cultural genocide and ethnocide. Because of the relatively isolated nature of the schools, there was an elevated rate of physical and sexual abuse. Corporal punishment was often justified by a belief that it was the only way to "save souls", "civilize" the savage, or punish runaways who, if they became injured or died in their efforts to return home, would leave the school legally responsible for whatever befell them.

3) Living conditions for Indigenous people in the prairie regions deteriorated quickly. Between 1875 and 1885, settlers and hunters of European descent contributed to hunting the North American Bison almost to extinction; the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway brought large numbers of European settlers west who encroached on former Indigenous territory. European Canadians established governments, police forces, and courts of law with different foundations than indigenous practices. Various epidemics continued to devastate Indigenous communities. All of these factors had a profound effect on Indigenous people, particularly those from the plains who had relied heavily on bison for food and clothing. Most of t ...


please do..

going to mention ANYTHING AT ALL THAT IS CURRENT?
2013-01-24 11:15:17 AM  
1 votes:
Just a terrible toxic situation.

1) I agree with pretty much everything Spence is asking for: better funding for schools, a re-examination of the omnibus environment-gutting bills, changes to the Indian Act, etc.

2) I dislike Harper's government intensely, but what is he supposed to do when faced with a hunger strike? If she wants to be treated as a Head of State, she shouldn't pull media stunts. That being said, I can see why so many First Nations feel that negotiations have failed.

3) Hoo boy is there a lot of racism and misconception. First Nations do pay tax. They really do. And Canada has no business unilaterally abandoning treaties in order to grab more natural resources from Native land.

4) That being said, it's not racist to wonder at where all the money is going. I'd expect any municipality to be held accountable. And while we all want conditions on reserves to improve, it's pretty clear that just increasing the money isn't going to make a long-term difference.

5) What is the long-term future of somewhere like Attawapiskat, which is a dying community completely subsidized by artificial injections of federal money? No school, no jobs, no future. But if you suggest leaving and getting jobs in the cities, there are a large number of Natives who see that - understandably - as a threat to their culture because of the terrible history of residential schools and other abuse that happened last time integration was suggested.
2013-01-24 11:05:52 AM  
1 votes:
I hate that biatch. I mean seriously hate her and her f*cking mafia family bullshiat. She's done more harm to first nations rights in Canada then Harris ever did. She's a f*cking thief. She stole millions from her reserve, pocketed the money and then went on this bullsh*t race card blame game when she got caught. It pisses me off how cheated the people of the reserve, and how she clouded the issue of her theft by saying everyone else was to blame for the fact she's a thief. Did I mention how much I loathe this biatch?
2013-01-24 11:01:56 AM  
1 votes:

rattchett: Breaking the treaties would result in the aboriginal people being treated as conquered and Canada being a conqueror. Which does not fit into the Canadian psyche.


But that is how it should have been handled from the start....back when the British pushed them off of their lands. Canada wouldn't have half as many problems now if the Indians and the French (Quebec) were treated like a conquered people by the British and integrated into society or wiped out. Like every other nation did for 1000s of years before. You think when the Romans/Greeks/Syrians/Mongols/Egyptians/Persians conquered a land they made deals with the previous occupants that future generations would be bound to?

Hate me if you want but I have no sympathy for the plight of the Indians. They get government handouts, don't pay any tax, and get free post-secondary education but choose to live in run down communities and blame everyone but themselves. If the government was giving me money and free education you can sure as hell bet I'd move my ass out of the squalor and get at least a Masters degree.
2013-01-24 10:15:05 AM  
1 votes:

MayContainHorseGluten: complete misconceptions and nonsense.


yeah.. complete miconceptions by THEM.. like that they own the land and that there is a 123 trillion dollar account that is set aside for the indians that the government refuses to give them and steals all the interest from and that yeah you know what. you wont listen because your mind is already made up
2013-01-24 09:59:53 AM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: Never have quite understood hunger strikes.

You're going to refuse to eat until such a time that your demands are met? Torturing yourself to death slowly. That will show em.


It requires something called empathy on the part of people seeing the starving person. Evidently that's something you're not familiar with.
2013-01-24 09:51:05 AM  
1 votes:

rickane58: randomjsa: Never have quite understood hunger strikes.

You're going to refuse to eat until such a time that your demands are met? Torturing yourself to death slowly. That will show em.

They're actually a quite effective way of getting the public opinion on your side.


The CBC report this morning said "Spence does not seem to have public opinion on her side; only blah blah % of Canadians say they believe her actions will result in meaningful change" or something like that. Not that they didn't sympathize, mind you, just that they didn't believe it'd generate positive results.

Claiming a "moral victory" against a weasel like Harper isn't difficult. He's always wrong. It's a lot harder to force him to back down from something his party has decided to do.
2013-01-24 09:45:50 AM  
1 votes:
My support for the natives outweighs my support for the government, but only by a hair. They're protesting treaty issues and changes to environmental laws and have very little reason to trust the feds.

But no matter what party controlled the federal government, they've simply responded by paying off their corrupt leaders to look the other way for decades. That the leaders wasted all the money they were given with no accounting was the biggest non-secret for years and the government never gave a flying fark because there was no political will. Meanwhile, some have managed to make it, but lots are still stuck in a nasty cycle of fail that is only going to be solved with years of therapy, support and services, NOT money.

Remember, it takes two to keep a dysfunctional relationship going, there's always an enabler.
2013-01-24 09:43:24 AM  
1 votes:

MayContainHorseGluten: gsnfl: Maybe she dined on the 80 million dollars worth of missing receipts....

long story only found on CBC.

Yeah, the stupid thing about that talking point is it keeps coming up even though no one understands that there are *no accounting firms on their native reserve*. It's not like Deloitte or some major firm is going to open offices in a village of a few hundred. When they asked the government to help bring in accountants to handle bookeeping, they refused unless they also got to control how the money was spent. So, they either spent millions building business infrastructure to get accountants (which $80 million requires a lot of accountants to track properly), or on their own people and let the bookeeping get a bit sloppy.

The only thing I don't fully understand is how people think she's sitting on millions of dollars herself. If the government and tax authorities don't even think she stole money (if they did she'd be up on charges, not getting random political accusations), and she's starving herself to get more services (not more *money*, but more infrastructure & services), why wouldn't she just fake her own death and fark off to some foreign tropical island for the rest of her life? Rich people don't make choices like this.


The report is a good read. The conclusion was that while no overt theft was found there were enough irregularities to recommend a forensic audit.

The timing of the report leaking was suspect, at 3 days before her meeting the pm. Her moving the meeting with the pm was also suspect, as the pm wanted to meet about 3 days after the report was already due to be released to the public.
2013-01-24 09:38:56 AM  
1 votes:

MayContainHorseGluten: Discordulator: hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?

Yeah. If this sort of thing keeps up the next thing you know there could be a black president!

It's also a surprisingly common feeling among Canadians. They're more racist then you know. But only about natives. Black people they like, since they have a history of saving them from Americans (underground railroad). But in even Canada's most liberal news sites (CBC, for example) are loaded with racist rhetoric and complete misconceptions and nonsense.


I'm Canadian metis. Get to see a lot of it firsthand. Sadly, there is a similar attitude here that I have seen among half-blacks in the states. Too white for black, too black for white.

So I get it from both natives and whites.

/Not so csb
2013-01-24 09:34:32 AM  
1 votes:

oldfarthenry: Dramatic lack of weight loss aside, I'd really like to know where the $90 million that the government gave her went while her people were freezing to death in tents made out of plastic bags!!


This.
2013-01-24 09:14:39 AM  
1 votes:

Discordulator: hasty ambush: How can squaw be an Indian Chief?

Yeah. If this sort of thing keeps up the next thing you know there could be a black president!


It's also a surprisingly common feeling among Canadians. They're more racist then you know. But only about natives. Black people they like, since they have a history of saving them from Americans (underground railroad). But in even Canada's most liberal news sites (CBC, for example) are loaded with racist rhetoric and complete misconceptions and nonsense.
2013-01-24 09:11:14 AM  
1 votes:

jtown: [southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com image 480x360]

I'm allegedly 1/32 Penobscot so I'm allowed to call Shenanigans on white-looking Indians.


Dude, some native peoples in Canada are white-skinned. They're in the north. Northerners don't exactly get a ton of sunlight.
2013-01-24 08:08:33 AM  
1 votes:
Stubby, I've fasted for slightly more than four weeks, IV liquids only, in early 2001. It's not quite as big a deal people assume it is.
2013-01-24 05:22:43 AM  
1 votes:
How come Jesus gets industrial disease?
2013-01-24 04:22:26 AM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: Never have quite understood hunger strikes.

You're going to refuse to eat until such a time that your demands are met? Torturing yourself to death slowly. That will show em.


This and
this should explain it.
2013-01-24 04:19:13 AM  
1 votes:
I'm calling shenanigans. Consuming nothing but fish broth and tea since the second week of December and just ending now, she'd look like Ghandi, unless she started out at like 300 pounds.
2013-01-24 04:11:32 AM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: Never have quite understood hunger strikes.

You're going to refuse to eat until such a time that your demands are met? Torturing yourself to death slowly. That will show em.


They're actually a quite effective way of getting the public opinion on your side.
2013-01-24 04:08:21 AM  
1 votes:
southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com

I'm allegedly 1/32 Penobscot so I'm allowed to call Shenanigans on white-looking Indians.
2013-01-24 03:57:04 AM  
1 votes:
Liquids only diet, it says.

Bacon milkshakes count as liquid?
 
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