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(Guardian)   The previous ruler traded our antiquities to have railroads built. Give them back, or we don't let your scientists in. Also, we keep the railroads   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 84
    More: Stupid, antiquities, Turkey, culture war, Prime Minister of Turkey, basalts, heritage sites, cultural heritage, excavations  
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7386 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 Jan 2013 at 1:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-22 05:32:33 PM  

red5ish: CigaretteSmokingMan: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 411x350]

Maybe after they give this back to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch.

I think it looks better with the minarets than without.


The exterior design was secondary to the interior. The importance of the building was the then seemingly impossible enclosure of such a large space. You were supposed to be awed when you were inside the house of god, not outside it.

upload.wikimedia.org

This is what makes the Hagia Sophia so important. Look at the section. The ratio of solid to void is impressive to this day. Its a marvel of engineering.

Those scud missles on the outside don't even rate.
 
2013-01-22 05:42:44 PM  

dk47: Based on the way they maintain their national archaeological museum in Istanbul Constantinople, they do not deserve to get this stuff back.

/yes you should go


It had to be done.
 
2013-01-22 06:03:47 PM  

Komplex: msupf: Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.

No, I considered best Korea, but you have to take into account that they are a relatively closed society, whereas the Turkish society is more open to outside information. They willingly choose to ignore the outside information that overwhelms theirs with things like fact. That, in my eyes, makes them worse.

You've never been to China.
or Japan.
or England.
or France.
or Italy.
or Brooklyn.
or Manhattan
or American South.
or Brazil.


Actually, been to all of those places, but thanks for playing.

Here's the fun thing, none of those places have a culture so fragile and easily upset that they made it a crime to say something as simple as "Turkey Sucks". Yes, i know, there are other countries who also had laws like it, but they took it to extremes: insult a turkish national team and at one point you would face serious charges. And I know of no other group that will stand up en masse to this day (or wig out online as a group) like Turks who feel that you have in any way shape or form besmirched their country, culture, or manhood. Fun thing is, they will do the same for an imagined slight against a single Turkish person.

They actually caused a lot of grief as a group at my university years ago because every little slight would be brought to the ombudsman and at one point they tried to sue the school over the content of some of the history courses.
 
2013-01-22 06:06:26 PM  

msupf: Komplex: msupf: Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.

No, I considered best Korea, but you have to take into account that they are a relatively closed society, whereas the Turkish society is more open to outside information. They willingly choose to ignore the outside information that overwhelms theirs with things like fact. That, in my eyes, makes them worse.

You've never been to China.
or Japan.
or England.
or France.
or Italy.
or Brooklyn.
or Manhattan
or American South.
or Brazil.

Actually, been to all of those places, but thanks for playing.

Here's the fun thing, none of those places have a culture so fragile and easily upset that they made it a crime to say something as simple as "Turkey Sucks". Yes, i know, there are other countries who also had laws like it, but they took it to extremes: insult a turkish national team and at one point you would face serious charges. And I know of no other group that will stand up en masse to this day (or wig out online as a group) like Turks who feel that you have in any way shape or form besmirched their country, culture, or manhood. Fun thing is, they will do the same for an imagined slight against a single Turkish person.

They actually caused a lot of grief as a group at my university years ago because every little slight would be brought to the ombudsman and at one point they tried to sue the school over the content of some of the history courses.


But... but... it's a different culllllture!
 
2013-01-22 06:21:13 PM  
Those scud missles on the outside don't even rate.

i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-01-22 06:38:23 PM  

Slaxl: People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.


Don't confuse the leaders of a country with the people who inhabit it. While various groups have conquered what is now Turkey, the bulk of the people fundamentally the same over the last couple of thousand years.

And the current Turkish government is recognized as the legal successor to the Ottoman empire.

That said, the Pergamon altar was still removed from the country illegally by the Germans. The Turks have a better claim to it than the Greeks do to the Elgin Marbles (which were technically legally removed).
 
2013-01-22 06:51:28 PM  

red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"


What else would you do with it?
 
2013-01-22 06:58:17 PM  

Bad_Seed: red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

What else would you do with it?


Let the market decide?
 
2013-01-22 06:59:41 PM  

TheOther: Bad_Seed: red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

What else would you do with it?

Let the market decide?


They're archaeologists, not grave robbers! They weren't doing it for the money.
 
2013-01-22 07:05:19 PM  

msupf: Komplex: msupf: Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.

No, I considered best Korea, but you have to take into account that they are a relatively closed society, whereas the Turkish society is more open to outside information. They willingly choose to ignore the outside information that overwhelms theirs with things like fact. That, in my eyes, makes them worse.

You've never been to China.
or Japan.
or England.
or France.
or Italy.
or Brooklyn.
or Manhattan
or American South.
or Brazil.

Actually, been to all of those places, but thanks for playing.

Here's the fun thing, none of those places have a culture so fragile and easily upset that they made it a crime to say something as simple as "Turkey Sucks". Yes, i know, there are other countries who also had laws like it, but they took it to extremes: insult a turkish national team and at one point you would face serious charges. And I know of no other group that will stand up en masse to this day (or wig out online as a group) like Turks who feel that you have in any way shape or form besmirched their country, culture, or manhood. Fun thing is, they will do the same for an imagined slight against a single Turkish person.

They actually caused a lot of grief as a group at my university years ago because every little slight would be brought to the ombudsman and at one point they tried to sue the school over the content of some of the history courses.


This is all very accurate, thank you for saying it better than I could.

My year in London at school is punctuated by perceived slights against some of the resident Turkish students and the COMPLETELY out of proportion response to them.

It's a shame because some of them could be cool people but there was nothing Turkey ever did that could be construed as a fault. What made it more hilarious was the constant barrage of anti-Americanism that most of us shrugged off and thus were known as a pretty cool group that were welcome anywhere. The Turks quickly got a reputation and only hung out amongst themselves and got it into their heads it was a persecution complex rather than the rest of us being tired of their shiat.
 
2013-01-22 07:07:30 PM  
Don't get me wrong, I love history .... but fark 'em.

It only eats away at their own culture and legacy. If all their stuff is destroyed and gone a hundred years from now, I could really care less. I'll focus and study a people who are interested in showing me their history.
 
jvl
2013-01-22 07:07:49 PM  

PapaChester: Gotta love a country going to cultural war to reclaim artifacts yet is totally willing to flood the excavation sites to create dams.


They should just burn coal instead of building dams. What's the harm in that?
 
2013-01-22 07:21:47 PM  

Bad_Seed: TheOther: Bad_Seed: red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

What else would you do with it?

Let the market decide?

They're archaeologists, not grave robbers! They weren't doing it for the money.


Fame and glory are currencies, too. If Elgin and Schliemann had other full time jobs, good for them. Of course, the British government paid Elgin for his loot.
 
2013-01-22 07:24:44 PM  

Lunchlady: This is all very accurate, thank you for saying it better than I could.

My year in London at school is punctuated by perceived slights against some of the resident Turkish students and the COMPLETELY out of proportion response to them.

It's a shame because some of them could be cool people but there was nothing Turkey ever did that could be construed as a fault. What made it more hilarious was the constant barrage of anti-Americanism that most of us shrugged off and thus were known as a pretty cool group that were welcome anywhere. The Turks quickly got a reputation and only hung out amongst themselves and got it into their heads it was a persecution complex rather than the rest of us being tired of their shiat.



While traveling I've had people of other countries mention some negative history of the United States and ask how I felt about it. I answered that a lot of Americans, like myself, agree that the atrocities of our past are undeniably horrible but I don't personally feel particularly responsible for the crime. I think that mindset is quite prevalent in the United States because ours is a mixed nation of religions, races, cultures, etc.

It's a little difficult to point at a girl of Asian-decent and say it's wrong what her American ancestors did to Indians.
It's a little difficult to point at a Jewish boy and say it's wrong what his American ancestors did during the Salem Witch Trails.
It's a little difficult to point at a boy with Irish-heritage and tell him his American ancestors had no idea what it is to struggle in the United States because he is white.

The rest of the world looks at Americans as mutts. Americans look at the rest of the world and wonder why they don't also want to be a mutt.
 
2013-01-22 07:34:18 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: Lunchlady: This is all very accurate, thank you for saying it better than I could.

My year in London at school is punctuated by perceived slights against some of the resident Turkish students and the COMPLETELY out of proportion response to them.

It's a shame because some of them could be cool people but there was nothing Turkey ever did that could be construed as a fault. What made it more hilarious was the constant barrage of anti-Americanism that most of us shrugged off and thus were known as a pretty cool group that were welcome anywhere. The Turks quickly got a reputation and only hung out amongst themselves and got it into their heads it was a persecution complex rather than the rest of us being tired of their shiat.


While traveling I've had people of other countries mention some negative history of the United States and ask how I felt about it. I answered that a lot of Americans, like myself, agree that the atrocities of our past are undeniably horrible but I don't personally feel particularly responsible for the crime. I think that mindset is quite prevalent in the United States because ours is a mixed nation of religions, races, cultures, etc.

It's a little difficult to point at a girl of Asian-decent and say it's wrong what her American ancestors did to Indians.
It's a little difficult to point at a Jewish boy and say it's wrong what his American ancestors did during the Salem Witch Trails.
It's a little difficult to point at a boy with Irish-heritage and tell him his American ancestors had no idea what it is to struggle in the United States because he is white.

The rest of the world looks at Americans as mutts. Americans look at the rest of the world and wonder why they don't also want to be a mutt.


There was an interesting article on the BBC travel website a while ago that talked about perceptions of America and Americans in general and it raised a good point. Most Europeans don't meet a German and assume they are a Nazi or a Russian and assume they're a communist. But Europeans seem to associate Americans to an absurd degree with its government and culture. Perhaps it's because they see so few of us but they expect us to answer for our wars or our civil rights and also expect us to all own guns (I've had that particular conversation probably 10 times).

Now obviously every culture and traveler has built in prejudices and expectations but Americans by and large are the only ones taken to task for the actions of the government. Maybe it's because we are the dominant cultural touchstone in the world. Maybe it's because of the enormous military we seem to love using. Maybe we deserve it. With that in mind, MOST American travelers don't go on just one trip abroad so seasoned travelers usually know to just shrug it off.
 
2013-01-22 07:53:55 PM  

TheOther: Bad_Seed: TheOther: Bad_Seed: red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

What else would you do with it?

Let the market decide?

They're archaeologists, not grave robbers! They weren't doing it for the money.

Fame and glory are currencies, too. If Elgin and Schliemann had other full time jobs, good for them. Of course, the British government paid Elgin for his loot.


Why would digging crap up make you famous in the first place? For a lot of this stuff to have any value in the first place you need to have some appreciation of ancient art and the civilisations what produced it. Then you need to catalogue it, study it, compare it to other pieces, link it up with textual sources (after you've deciphered and translated those) and essentially write a history of the culture that you're studying. The Ottomans weren't always particularly concerned about the ancient artefacts lying around. They didn't even have a museum until the 1890s, which they founded because they wanted to look modern and sophisticated. Scratching around in the dirt for ancient civilisations was a peculiar Western European obsession, which they locals probably found a bit eccentric. It's only later, when they saw the finished product that they started getting interested, and even then they didn't necessarily have the people trained to do the digs and make sense of the finds.

The Turks were famous for their neglect (and the looting) of their archaeological sites well into the 20th century. It's only recently that they've realised that they can make more money showing off artefacts to tourists instead of ripping them out of the ground and selling them that they've changed their attitude.

Of course, if you control the artefacts, then you can present them in a way that suits your purpose and write the history the way you want it to be written.
 
2013-01-22 08:42:29 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: It only eats away at their own culture and legacy. If all their stuff is destroyed and gone a hundred years from now, I could really care less. I'll focus and study a people who are interested in showing me their history.


Pretty idiotic viewpoint, as there's a hell of a lot to be learned about ancient Greece and Rome by digging in Turkey.

/though the really exciting place to dig in coming decades is Libya, which hasn't been touched since before WWII. Lot of Roman sites there.
 
2013-01-22 09:11:58 PM  
img2-3.timeinc.net
turkey?
 
2013-01-22 09:23:42 PM  
Sure thing, Turkey. Just as soon as you give back Constantinople.
 
2013-01-22 10:10:37 PM  

TheOther: Fame and glory are currencies, too. If Elgin and Schliemann had other full time jobs, good for them. Of course, the British government paid Elgin for his loot.


Schlemann was a multi-millionaire before he got into archeology, and he did more harm than good at the site he called "Troy", digging well past the level he was looking for.

Lord Elgin saw an opportunity and took it. Yes, the British government eventually paid him for the Parthenon sculptures, but only a fraction of what removing and transporting them cost. He died a bankrupt.

/The Parthenon survived intact until the 1400, when the Venetians laid siege to Athens. They hit the building with canon fire, not knowing that it was being used as a powder magazine. It blew up. It was only after that that the Ottomans abandoned it.
 
2013-01-23 12:08:40 AM  

msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.


That's no one's business but the Turks
 
2013-01-23 12:12:16 AM  

JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.


You mean Byzantium?
 
2013-01-23 12:16:18 AM  

LemSkroob: red5ish: CigaretteSmokingMan: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 411x350]

Maybe after they give this back to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch.

I think it looks better with the minarets than without.

The exterior design was secondary to the interior. The importance of the building was the then seemingly impossible enclosure of such a large space. You were supposed to be awed when you were inside the house of god, not outside it.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x383]

This is what makes the Hagia Sophia so important. Look at the section. The ratio of solid to void is impressive to this day. Its a marvel of engineering.

Those scud missles on the outside don't even rate.


For me the true value of Assassin's Creed:Revelations, was learning the geography of a lovely city.
 
2013-01-23 12:49:53 AM  

Fano: JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.

You mean Byzantium?


Constantine didn't conquer Byzantium, it was already part of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire took its name from the city of Byzantium which was in turn renamed Constantinople. The Byzantinines considered themselves Romans right up until up until the Turks demolished Constantinople's walls with cannons, raped the city, defaced the Hagia Sofia, and started calling the city something that sounds like a bowel movement.
 
2013-01-23 03:34:21 AM  
No "It belongs in a museum!"? Fark, I am disapoint.
 
2013-01-23 07:54:17 AM  

JesusJuice: Fano: JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.

You mean Byzantium?

Constantine didn't conquer Byzantium, it was already part of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire took its name from the city of Byzantium which was in turn renamed Constantinople. The Byzantinines considered themselves Romans right up until up until the Turks demolished Constantinople's walls with cannons, raped the city, defaced the Hagia Sofia, and started calling the city something that sounds like a bowel movement.


The Byzantines didn't conquer it, but the Romans did. But if we are to consider the Eastern Roman Empire to be the rightful owner of the city, we come up with a new problem: that empire is gone. We could go back to the Roman Empire whence that came, but it's pretty much gone too. One could argue that the Vatican is the last remnant of the Roman Empire, but while there are probably more inflammatory suggestions than giving a Turkish city to the Vatican, I doubt there are many.

"Giving back Constantinople" is an interesting idea -not one I'd suggest in any event, but interesting- but who remains to give it to?
 
2013-01-23 08:12:07 AM  
Many of the artefacts taken by westerners would not exist now if they were still in Greece/Turkey. They didn't give a shiat about that stuff until quite recently and they realised they could make money from it.
 
2013-01-23 09:54:27 AM  
media.screened.com

Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
 
2013-01-23 12:53:23 PM  

Millennium: JesusJuice: Fano: JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.

You mean Byzantium?

Constantine didn't conquer Byzantium, it was already part of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire took its name from the city of Byzantium which was in turn renamed Constantinople. The Byzantinines considered themselves Romans right up until up until the Turks demolished Constantinople's walls with cannons, raped the city, defaced the Hagia Sofia, and started calling the city something that sounds like a bowel movement.

The Byzantines didn't conquer it, but the Romans did. But if we are to consider the Eastern Roman Empire to be the rightful owner of the city, we come up with a new problem: that empire is gone. We could go back to the Roman Empire whence that came, but it's pretty much gone too. One could argue that the Vatican is the last remnant of the Roman Empire, but while there are probably more inflammatory suggestions than giving a Turkish city to the Vatican, I doubt there are many.


Or even giving a historically Orthodox city to the Catholic Church. Based on what you said, the least controversial option would be to set it up like an Orthodox Vatican under the Patriarch like someone mentioned upthread (I said least controversial, not perfect).
 
2013-01-23 02:46:45 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: Slaxl: People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.

Don't confuse the leaders of a country with the people who inhabit it. While various groups have conquered what is now Turkey, the bulk of the people fundamentally the same over the last couple of thousand years.

And the current Turkish government is recognized as the legal successor to the Ottoman empire.

That said, the Pergamon altar was still removed from the country illegally by the Germans. The Turks have a better claim to it than the Greeks do to the Elgin Marbles (which were technically legally removed).


i172.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-23 03:01:25 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: That said, the Pergamon altar was still removed from the country illegally by the Germans. The Turks have a better claim to it than the Greeks do to the Elgin Marbles


How do the Turks have a claim to something they didn't make? Just because it's on their land? Well the Greeks made the marbles, and it was on their land, though as you say they were legally removed, so they can't have them back, but they are Greek. The Pergamum altar is also Greek. The Greeks have a better claim to it than the Turks. 

All2morrowsparTs: *Pulls Pin; counts to 3*Never tell this to a Jew about Isreal...*Runs!*


Yeah but that's easily countered, since the Jews were there long before the "Palestinians". They just returned to their rightful homeland. I am surprised no one picked that grenade up though, I hope it doesn't explode in my ha... 

phalamir: So, since the US has better facilities, Britain should just turn over every object of any value to the Americans, for the good of posterity? Seems legit


No, that's not even close to anything I said. I said the people of Turkey today aren't related to the people who created the artifacts they want back. It was a gross exaggeration, because while the ruling classes change the average peasantry rarely does, so you could have picked me up on that, but no one did. But I don't see how you get to giving everything to America. Also if your facilities are better... if... then they're not better by a margin wide enough to justify anything like that. In early 2001 Afghanistan should have been confiscated and all Taliban executed for even considering blowing up the statues. That's the level of difference required.
 
2013-01-23 03:06:27 PM  

Slaxl: It was a gross exaggeration, because while the ruling classes change the average peasantry rarely does, so you could have picked me up on that, but no one did.


Actually, thanks to CigaretteSmokingMan boldening the relevant part above I see that someone did indeed picked me up on that point. My apologies, Dwight_Yeast, for missing it first time. Though I do think that successive waves of Arab and Turkic invasions would have done more to the make up of the bulk of the people than say the Normans taking over from the Saxons, your point is, of course, essentially, correct. Lots of commas to emphasise, that.
 
2013-01-23 04:06:08 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: Slaxl: The Turks have a better claim to it than the Greeks do to the Elgin Marbles (which were technically legally removed).


Perhaps not. The document that Elgin received from the Ottomans that allowed him to remove those artifacts went missing very early on. He likely had the OK to pick up things from the ground, but whether his people had permission to loot tombs for burial urns, or erect scaffolding and hack off the metopes and the rest, remains in question.
 
2013-01-23 06:18:20 PM  

LemSkroob: red5ish: CigaretteSmokingMan: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 411x350]

Maybe after they give this back to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch.

I think it looks better with the minarets than without.

The exterior design was secondary to the interior. The importance of the building was the then seemingly impossible enclosure of such a large space. You were supposed to be awed when you were inside the house of god, not outside it.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x383]

This is what makes the Hagia Sophia so important. Look at the section. The ratio of solid to void is impressive to this day. Its a marvel of engineering.

Those scud missles on the outside don't even rate.


i lol'd

/why is fark awesome? this is why; i learn interesting stuff with a bit of snark as a cherry on top
 
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