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(Guardian)   The previous ruler traded our antiquities to have railroads built. Give them back, or we don't let your scientists in. Also, we keep the railroads   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 84
    More: Stupid, antiquities, Turkey, culture war, Prime Minister of Turkey, basalts, heritage sites, cultural heritage, excavations  
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7386 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 Jan 2013 at 1:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-22 12:16:36 PM  
Gotta love a country going to cultural war to reclaim artifacts yet is totally willing to flood the excavation sites to create dams. Classy Turkey, but I never expected much from you anyways.

China much?
 
2013-01-22 12:43:24 PM  
People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.

I've probably missed something and someone out there, but if the Turks came from central Asia and spread west either before or with the Mongol horde then they have as much claim to some of 'their' artifacts as I do.

Same goes for Egypt. You're Arab now, you weren't in the days of the 1st dynasty. Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.
 
2013-01-22 01:50:32 PM  
Seriously, what's your beef, Turkey? Playing chicken with the scientific community just sounds fishy, to me.
 
2013-01-22 01:52:31 PM  
Here's a pic I took of Allianoi, before it was submerged.

i1220.photobucket.com
excavations were ongoing until the very last minute.
(we snuck in through the back, as the ministry of culture and tourism no longer was allowing tourists to visit the site)
 
2013-01-22 01:53:23 PM  

Slaxl: People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.

I've probably missed something and someone out there, but if the Turks came from central Asia and spread west either before or with the Mongol horde then they have as much claim to some of 'their' artifacts as I do.

Same goes for Egypt. You're Arab now, you weren't in the days of the 1st dynasty. Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.


So, since the US has better facilities, Britain should just turn over every object of any value to the Americans, for the good of posterity? Seems legit
 
2013-01-22 02:09:18 PM  
Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.
 
2013-01-22 02:09:40 PM  

Agarista: Here's a pic I took of Allianoi, before it was submerged.

[i1220.photobucket.com image 453x604]
excavations were ongoing until the very last minute.
(we snuck in through the back, as the ministry of culture and tourism no longer was allowing tourists to visit the site)


All things considered, it's not as if it's gone...
 
2013-01-22 02:12:14 PM  

msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.


You may be failing to consider Best Korea.
 
2013-01-22 02:28:14 PM  
This puts a new spin on my plans to visit Turkey. As in, now, probably not.
 
2013-01-22 02:31:38 PM  
Maybe the Europeans need to start talking more about the Armenian genocide?
 
2013-01-22 02:36:30 PM  

Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.


Only Best Korea's leadership are pricks. I've crossed in twice while visiting and the people are nice and have a strong desire to get off the crazy train. Sadly the elite with the control of the military is farking up everything.
 
2013-01-22 02:47:46 PM  
Based on the way they maintain their national archaeological museum in Istanbul, they do not deserve to get this stuff back.

/yes you should go
 
2013-01-22 03:03:06 PM  

Slaxl: Same goes for Egypt. You're Arab now, you weren't in the days of the 1st dynasty. Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.


Having been to Egypt and seen how they treat their sites, I wouldn't want to return anything to them.

Down in the Valley of the Kings. Rare tombs that you can go underground to visit. Stunning. So, I take my camera down and use a really high ASA film and plan to take a couple of shots. So, I do this and next thing, the guard, the guy who is supposed to stop people taking flash photographs tells me I can take a flash photo (this of course comes with a bribe). And not just there but at one of the temples too.
 
2013-01-22 03:04:55 PM  

Agarista: Here's a pic I took of Allianoi, before it was submerged.

[i1220.photobucket.com image 453x604]
excavations were ongoing until the very last minute.
(we snuck in through the back, as the ministry of culture and tourism no longer was allowing tourists to visit the site)


A genuine thank you for sharing that

/No snark
//Love history
 
2013-01-22 03:05:35 PM  
Turkey has been accused of cultural chauvinism and attempting to blackmail some of the world's most important museums in the wake of its demands for the return of thousands of archaeological treasures.

What 'some of the world's most important museums' might look like:

i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-01-22 03:10:15 PM  

Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.


No, I considered best Korea, but you have to take into account that they are a relatively closed society, whereas the Turkish society is more open to outside information. They willingly choose to ignore the outside information that overwhelms theirs with things like fact. That, in my eyes, makes them worse.
 
2013-01-22 03:10:17 PM  
phalamir:
So, since the US has better facilities, Britain should just turn over every object of any value to the Americans, for the good of posterity?

If Britain was doing the same sort of thing to their antiquities, you betcha.

Of course, you seem to be confusing "better facilities" with "doesn't destroy things out of incompetence or spite." A huge chunk of the Islamic world seems to be in the "burn it to the ground or blow it up with explosives" mode versus non-Islamic antiquities in recent years.
 
2013-01-22 03:15:03 PM  

cirby: phalamir:
So, since the US has better facilities, Britain should just turn over every object of any value to the Americans, for the good of posterity?

If Britain was doing the same sort of thing to their antiquities, you betcha.

Of course, you seem to be confusing "better facilities" with "doesn't destroy things out of incompetence or spite." A huge chunk of the Islamic world seems to be in the "burn it to the ground or blow it up with explosives" mode versus non-Islamic antiquities in recent years.


It's because the fundementalist interpretation of the Koranic law against idolatry includes historic objects and places, and the rise of Islamicists spreads this interpretation, hence the iconoclasm.
 
2013-01-22 03:15:39 PM  
Rarrrr!!1 Give us back the things we tried to destroy hundreds of years ago when we killed their owners!
 
2013-01-22 03:23:12 PM  

msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.


www.armenews.com

The Turkish gov't makes Japan look good when it comes to denial of past transgressions. Though I'm not sure what that has to do with antiquities and railroads.
 
2013-01-22 03:26:30 PM  
After all of the recent news about how that region treats its antiquities, and is unable to stop revolutions & theft resulting thereof, cultural destruction of previous inhabitants that don't mesh with current theopolitics, and general assholicity, I say fark them.

fark them with great determination. Part of becoming a civilized member of the world is honoring previous legal agreements. Extorting the return of the artifacts so foreign country will be allowed spend their money to research your own history is pretty weak. I bet they don't even see the situation for what it is--they cannot afford to find out about their history and would rather live in the dark.
 
2013-01-22 03:30:21 PM  
Nothing more that blustering and nationalistic posturing. The ruling caste wants these items back to bolster their own egos and to use as a cheap PR stunt to impress their ignorant and gullible rubes of a populace. Maybe they ought to instead work on joining the rest of the first world in the 21st century and prove that they can behave responsibly with priceless and irreplacable history. Until then they can go fark themselves.
 
2013-01-22 03:33:12 PM  
Can someone here with more historical knowledge give me the tl;dr on the antiquities for rail road trade?
 
2013-01-22 03:35:51 PM  

Slaxl: Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.


Same goes for every country in the world. Maybe not China, but there was plenty of meddling in the outlying areas by Tartars, Muslims (Persian-flavored?), the Japanese - not to mention communism, which wasn't a Chinese tradition until the early-mid 20th Century when they said "OK, we'll give the Germans' theory a shot. Applied correctly, it allows us to more tightly control the population, you say?"

Have you seriously never heard the phrase "winners write the history books"?

// remembering things about China
// admittedly, history is not my thing, Asian history even less so
 
2013-01-22 03:36:57 PM  

msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.


The Armenian student group on campus put up posters commemorating the Genocide with a picture of tomes labelled 1915, 1916, 1918 and a big gap where 1917 should be. The Turkish students riposted with their own poster, which photoshopped another tome into the gap titled Armenian Lies. Classy, I know, but it gets better. This went back and forth in poster form for a while, with the final Turkish offering being, essentially, "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
 
2013-01-22 03:39:59 PM  
That's nobody's business but the Turks.
 
2013-01-22 03:47:43 PM  

Bondith: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

The Armenian student group on campus put up posters commemorating the Genocide with a picture of tomes labelled 1915, 1916, 1918 and a big gap where 1917 should be. The Turkish students riposted with their own poster, which photoshopped another tome into the gap titled Armenian Lies. Classy, I know, but it gets better. This went back and forth in poster form for a while, with the final Turkish offering being, essentially, "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."


It was supposed to be a happy occasion?
 
2013-01-22 03:51:16 PM  
Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.
 
2013-01-22 03:54:38 PM  
Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

I'm sure The Guardian is reporting this issue without any cultural bias. They might feel differently if Stonehenge were in a museum in Ankara.
 
2013-01-22 03:57:18 PM  
if it wasn't for the fine imported & domestic blends of tobacco in Pop's filterless Camels i'd give them all a piece of my mind, tell you what.

/ Pops just loves those Camels
 
2013-01-22 04:00:05 PM  
Bondith:
This went back and forth in poster form for a while, with the final Turkish offering being, essentially, "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."

I remember the great Armenian Genocide Usenet wars, back in 1993 or so.

One of the first big uses of spam robots to try and shut down arguments. Heck, one guy was making thousands of posts (partly automatic, but some he wrote himself), basically making stuff up on the fly, to pretend it didn't happen.

Due to the automatic version, you couldn't even write a post using the word turkey (the bird) without getting a flame-filled response denying the genocide.
 
2013-01-22 04:08:03 PM  

Slaxl: People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.

I've probably missed something and someone out there, but if the Turks came from central Asia and spread west either before or with the Mongol horde then they have as much claim to some of 'their' artifacts as I do.

Same goes for Egypt. You're Arab now, you weren't in the days of the 1st dynasty. Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.


*Pulls Pin; counts to 3*Never tell this to a Jew about Isreal...*Runs!*
 
2013-01-22 04:09:58 PM  

cirby: the great Armenian Genocide Usenet wars


That phrase is going to stick in my head.
 
2013-01-22 04:11:54 PM  

JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.


Well technically Europe gave up Constantinople during the crusades when they started sacing the Byzantine Empire for being "too Oriental."Which, in that time, meant they had stuff to loot.
 
2013-01-22 04:11:57 PM  

red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

I'm sure The Guardian is reporting this issue without any cultural bias. They might feel differently if Stonehenge were in a museum in Ankara.


Really? Then how do you explain this?

The Greeks gave us the Olympics. Let them have their marbles.
 
2013-01-22 04:13:17 PM  

fickenchucker: After all of the recent news about how that region treats its antiquities, and is unable to stop revolutions & theft resulting thereof, cultural destruction of previous inhabitants that don't mesh with current theopolitics, and general assholicity, I say fark them.

fark them with great determination. Part of becoming a civilized member of the world is honoring previous legal agreements. Extorting the return of the artifacts so foreign country will be allowed spend their money to research your own history is pretty weak. I bet they don't even see the situation for what it is--they cannot afford to find out about their history and would rather live in the dark.


Heh...a Prussian museum...or any German...or Western European...lecturing Anatolia on 'civilized'. Funny stuff!
 
2013-01-22 04:14:50 PM  

Cornelius Dribble: red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

I'm sure The Guardian is reporting this issue without any cultural bias. They might feel differently if Stonehenge were in a museum in Ankara.

Really? Then how do you explain this?

The Greeks gave us the Olympics. Let them have their marbles.


When I first visited the British Museum I thought it amusing then sad that nothing in the museum is actually British.
 
2013-01-22 04:17:12 PM  

red5ish: Honestly it would be difficult to differentiate between some archaeologists and grave robbers and looters. "Hey, look at the ancient statue we dug up! It would look great in the British Museum!"

I'm sure The Guardian is reporting this issue without any cultural bias. They might feel differently if Stonehenge were in a museum in Ankara.


They probably would feel differently. Would this make them right? Rules for interpersonal relationships don't often scale to entire societies.
 
2013-01-22 04:23:42 PM  
cirby:
the great Armenian Genocide Usenet wars

red5ish:
That phrase is going to stick in my head.

It's 20 years later, and I still occasionally expect to see posts around Thanksgiving from Serdar Argic and Hasan Mutlu.

/turkey
 
2013-01-22 04:29:58 PM  
I'm sure Turkey is so conscientious of cultural history that they have decided to cede their part of Kurdistan to local control right?

Right?
 
2013-01-22 04:32:03 PM  

msupf: Parkanzky: msupf: Fark Turkey and their people.

I have never, in any of my travels or dealings with people, come across such chauvenism as exists there. You may want to point out "USA USA", but it is nothing compared to the way they act.You want laughable revisionist history, I highly suggest these people for #1 in that.

You may be failing to consider Best Korea.

No, I considered best Korea, but you have to take into account that they are a relatively closed society, whereas the Turkish society is more open to outside information. They willingly choose to ignore the outside information that overwhelms theirs with things like fact. That, in my eyes, makes them worse.


You've never been to China.
or Japan.
or England.
or France.
or Italy.
or Brooklyn.
or Manhattan
or American South.
or Brazil.
 
2013-01-22 04:33:42 PM  

cirby: Bondith:
This went back and forth in poster form for a while, with the final Turkish offering being, essentially, "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."

I remember the great Armenian Genocide Usenet wars, back in 1993 or so.

One of the first big uses of spam robots to try and shut down arguments. Heck, one guy was making thousands of posts (partly automatic, but some he wrote himself), basically making stuff up on the fly, to pretend it didn't happen.

Due to the automatic version, you couldn't even write a post using the word turkey (the bird) without getting a flame-filled response denying the genocide.


I went into one of my usual boardgaming boards back then and apparently the Armenian Genocide Usenet Touring Company was on a roadshow and giving free performances around Usenet. Those folks basically shut the board down with volume until they moved on a cooking board or auto repair board or wherever.
 
2013-01-22 04:37:32 PM  
I'm sure the Ottomans took plenty of stuff home from Greece, the Balkans, and other parts of eastern and south-eastern Europe. let's just call it even.
 
2013-01-22 04:41:17 PM  

All2morrowsparTs: JesusJuice: Europe should agree to give back all the Turkish treasures if Turkey gives back Constantinople.

Well technically Europe gave up Constantinople during the crusades when they started sacing the Byzantine Empire for being "too Oriental."Which, in that time, meant they had stuff to loot.


Constantinople was sacked only once by crusaders in 1203, against the express wishes of the Pope. It was certainly devastating to the Byzantine Empire, which actually ceased to exist for about a half century until Constantinople was retaken. After retaking Constantinople, the Byzantines were able to regain a part of their former glory until Constantinople was conquered by the Turks almost 300 years later.

So, no. Europe did not give up Constantinople during the crusades. Even after Constantinople was sacked by crusaders it was retained by Europe as a crusader state called the Latin Empire.

Either way, my point stands. Turkey has as much right to those artifacts as Europe does to Constantinople.
 
2013-01-22 04:43:01 PM  

Cornelius Dribble: Really? Then how do you explain this?


You present a convincing argument. I retract my statement about The Guardian.

Millennium: Rules for interpersonal relationships don't often scale to entire societies.


I honestly don't know what you are trying to say within the context of this thread.
 
2013-01-22 04:43:48 PM  

phalamir: Slaxl: People really need to get over this whole "they stole our treasures", attitude. That's not what happened, and what's more if you consider how the ancient world looked, the inhabitants of Turkey today share nothing with the creators of some of the stuff they're demanding back. If you go back it's been "Turkish" only since the Seljuks and later Ottomans conquered it from the Byzantines, who were mainly Greek, but they were the Eastern half of the Roman empire, and the Romans conquered it from states that were slightly Hellenic because they were the remnants of Alexander's Macedonian empire, who conquered it from the Persians, who swept across lands that were formerly Hittite.

I've probably missed something and someone out there, but if the Turks came from central Asia and spread west either before or with the Mongol horde then they have as much claim to some of 'their' artifacts as I do.

Same goes for Egypt. You're Arab now, you weren't in the days of the 1st dynasty. Just because you own the land now doesn't give you ownership over the history.

So, since the US has better facilities, Britain should just turn over every object of any value to the Americans, for the good of posterity? Seems legit


Yes, yes they should. It is why we built that great big warehouse for them, although the rumors are that the 14th warehouse will soon be built in China.
 
2013-01-22 04:48:00 PM  

PapaChester: Gotta love a country going to cultural war to reclaim artifacts yet is totally willing to flood the excavation sites to create dams. Classy Turkey, but I never expected much from you anyways.

China much?


It's not about the artifacts. It's about shaking down foreign governments for cash. Permits, infrastructure improvements, etc. - they're looking for foreign governments to pay for improving Turkey's aging infrastructure, and this is pretty much the only leverage they have to do so.

The solution seems simple - stop going to Turkey, stop all digs, stop all aid. Yes, we lose priceless knowledge, but since Turkey's happily destroying that stuff anyway, it makes sense for other countries to preserve that heritage rather than let short-sighted fools, no matter how culturally entitled they are, use or destroy it in a game of what amounts to political extortion. Turkey doesn't give a rat's rancid rectum about the artifacts themselves, or they wouldn't have stomped so many sites into the dirt.
 
2013-01-22 04:49:57 PM  
atomicblonde.files.wordpress.com
Turk Turkleton may have something to say about this.
 
2013-01-22 04:53:16 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

Maybe after they give this back to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch.
 
2013-01-22 05:26:24 PM  

CigaretteSmokingMan: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 411x350]

Maybe after they give this back to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch.


I think it looks better with the minarets than without.
 
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