If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Telegraph)   Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 83
    More: Obvious, faiths  
•       •       •

10481 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jan 2013 at 11:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2013-01-22 10:37:35 AM
7 votes:
Wait.  You mean the most simple and easy to follow doctrines like being kind to one another, turning the other cheek, not showboating your righteousness, not judging, etc. etc., are often ignored?  Who would have thunk it?
2013-01-22 11:40:29 AM
5 votes:
I've known a few good Christians. My mother is one of them. Christ knows she was about as Christian with me when I was a kid as possible. She had the patience of.....whats his name. And when I went to church as a kid there were some really good Christian people. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't taking any choir boys into the rectory.

I've also known some evil motherfarkers who called themselves Christians. In fact the ratio isn't very encouraging. A few Jehova's Witnesses come to mind as I mentioned in earlier posts. I used to think the Amish were the perfect Christians but I've read articles that they can be assholes too.

The irony is that the Jews who I know (and I work in film film so I know a lot) are the least judgmental and are least likely to try to convert you (frankly they don't want us), even though they just have the Old Testament with the fire and brimstone and genocide and locusts to fall back on. While the supposed Christians (and I'm not saying all but a lot), are the ones who supposedly have all this good shiat from Jesus about love and forgiveness and acceptance of whores and charity and sharing and whores and they're the ones always pushing the fire and brimstone and genocide and locusts. It's a mad house.
2013-01-22 11:48:21 AM
4 votes:
One of the purposes of religion is to distinguish an in group from out groups.

A religious dictum such as thou shall not kill only applies to the in-group. Cheating or killing foreigners is fine.

This perspective makes certain moral contradictions go away. For example, if you can't kill then how can an in-group impose capital punishment on its members? Easy. Transgressions such as female adultery or disrespect of elders means that the transgressor no longer obeys the religious rules which makes them no longer part of the in group and thus ok to kill.
2013-01-22 12:18:04 PM
3 votes:
Religion should be classified as a mental illness.
2013-01-22 12:12:30 PM
3 votes:

skipjack: umad:

You can't use logic on an illogical person. Ridicule is all that is left.

You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.

If ridicule is all you have left, then you haven't communicated effectively. That you feel you need to use ridicule says more about you than the person you're ridiculing.


People have been communicating effectively since people have existed. There is a saying that goes "You can lead a horse to water, but he may burn you at the stake for it", or something like that.

Religious people are actively choosing to believe in pure nonsense, without any regard to the facts. You even have a code word for when you are doing this. It is "faith".
2013-01-22 11:59:24 AM
3 votes:

skipjack: t3knomanser: skipjack: OTOH the ridicule those that disagree with you proverb is in full force.

We could be intellectual cowards, wringing our hands and pretending that all ideas about the world are equally valid and immune to criticism because they might be quite deeply held by people and we wouldn't want to offend them. Or we could heap ridicule on ridiculous beliefs where we find them.

The latter is far more honest.

It's not more honest to ridicule those that disagree with you, it's a response by someone insecure in their own beliefs.


You can't use logic on an illogical person. Ridicule is all that is left.

You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.
2013-01-22 11:57:42 AM
3 votes:
Religion is a substitute for ethics, not a component of it.
2013-01-22 11:57:26 AM
3 votes:

Cymbal: It's not 1995, and this is not an AOL chat room. Please don't think it's cool to post song lyrics. Never was cool in the first place.


You know what's even worse? QUOTING THE ENTIRE SONG IN YOUR STUPID REPLY.
2013-01-22 11:24:52 AM
3 votes:
Oh please. Next you'll be telling us that capitalism is the belief that there is something noble and sacred about allowing the ruthless, opportunisitic fortunate barely restrained tyranny over the less ruthless, the less opportunistic and the less fortunate.
2013-01-22 11:23:09 AM
3 votes:
From what I see with Christianity it's sin Monday through Saturday, Ctrl-Z on Sunday. I'll pass.
2013-01-22 02:41:22 PM
2 votes:
The major beef I have with all religions is the CONVICTION required. Really? You and your group of friends figured out the entire Universe already?

The arrogance and audacity it takes to 'know' one group is the best, and to hell with the rest is disgusting.
2013-01-22 01:53:21 PM
2 votes:

Rich Cream: Like shooting fish in a barrel today.

/throws all the little ones back.


Have you ever actually tried to shoot a fish in a barrel? It isn't as easy as it sounds due to the refraction of the light. You would know that if you knew science.
2013-01-22 01:46:38 PM
2 votes:

Rich Cream: I drunk what: the whole thing is made up, they are all myths, only science is real

You only believe in science. It's not tangible either.


First: IDW is a religious ... he is intentionally misrepresenting non-religious people to yank your chain.

Second: Nobody "believes" in science. Many of us feel that it is the best method for understanding our universe and the objects inside of it. Science only ever offers possible answers and, with these answers, science also provides the evidence that supports these answers.

It is religion that claims to know for sure and offers zero evidence to support these claims.
2013-01-22 01:07:31 PM
2 votes:

genner: Your looking at it the wrong way.
This study also proves that being an atheist doesn't make you a better person.


Atheism isn't a moral position.
2013-01-22 12:17:10 PM
2 votes:

skipjack:

If ridicule is all you have left, then you haven't communicated effectively. That you feel you need to use ridicule says more about you than the person you're ridiculing.


Oh horseshiat. Ridicule is a very efficient way to indicate that something isn't worth a serious response. It goes back as far as human language.

Stop cowering behind fake rules of etiquette. Nobody is fooled.
2013-01-22 12:09:10 PM
2 votes:
Does religion help you "Love Kill your neighbour"? NoYes, according to this study several thousands of years of human history

/also correct
2013-01-22 12:00:11 PM
2 votes:
[csb]

When I was young and my family was trying to get out of our badly designed church parking lot, my dad would laugh and point out all the "parking lot rage" that was going in. These people had literally just been inside the church, shaking hands and saying "peace be with you" and now they were ready to kill each other over who is next to leave the parking lot.

I think my father pointing out this blatant hypocrisy set me on the path to atheism. Something I will always thank him for.

[/csb]
2013-01-22 11:46:50 AM
2 votes:

germ78: Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over

Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
They call it "The Earth" which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right 'cause we behave the same
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black 'n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin' the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
And pretty soon there won't be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
To arms, to arms
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
Not his, not hers but what the hey
The good book says, "It's gotta be that way"
But their book says, "Revenge the crusades"
With whips 'n chains and hand grenades
Two arms, two arms
Have another and another
Our Cod says, "There ain't no other"
Our Cod says, "It's all ok"
Our god says "This is the way"
It says in the book, "Burn and destroy"
And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book and that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, 'cause he can really take care of business
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it's ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
'Cause if we don't do it we ain't "Gwine up to hebbin"
Depending on which book you're using at the time
Can't use theirs, it don't work, it's all lies, gotta use mine
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night, everyday
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following god's orders
Well let's get serious, god knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says, "He made us all to be just like him"
So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side


It's not 1995, and this is not an AOL chat room. Please don't think it's cool to post song lyrics. Never was cool in the first place.
2013-01-22 11:30:33 AM
2 votes:

MonoChango: Maybe.. Just maybe, it depends on the Religion.


images.sodahead.com
2013-01-22 11:30:10 AM
2 votes:

MonoChango: Maybe.. Just maybe, it depends on the Religion.


Doesn't seem to be what the study found. They even included non-religious in there, and I'd bet everyone is just as likely to fall into this. They were told they had something in common with the other person they were interacting with. That will make people more generous and trusting of the other person. I doubt it even has to be religion. You could probably do this with hobbies and get a similar result.
2013-01-22 11:24:56 AM
2 votes:

skipjack: OTOH the ridicule those that disagree with you proverb is in full force.


We could be intellectual cowards, wringing our hands and pretending that all ideas about the world are equally valid and immune to criticism because they might be quite deeply held by people and we wouldn't want to offend them. Or we could heap ridicule on ridiculous beliefs where we find them.

The latter is far more honest.
2013-01-22 10:31:06 AM
2 votes:
If my estranged sister is any indication, my guess would be, "no."
2013-01-22 05:25:25 PM
1 votes:
fc00.deviantart.net

My devotion to my god (pictured above) has no negative or adverse affects upon any of my neighbors save for Penny the Peasant four houses down.

/Burninatingly Hot
2013-01-22 04:04:05 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: And ridiculing someone who is paranoid helps how? It will accomplish at least one thing and that is further entrenchment.


This, from a guy who still can't seem to distinguish "ridicule" from "being worthy of ridicule" and "having only ridicule at one's disposal".

Just because one engages in ridicule doesn't mean (or even imply) that they have nothing else. And even so, ridicule is a hell of a lot more than what you're bringing. Which (so far) is "nothing".

Well, a little platitude and passive/aggressive condescension, but that still amounts to pretty much "nothing".
2013-01-22 03:23:39 PM
1 votes:
You mean a book that is okay with slavery, teaches that gays are evil and women should shut the fark up isn't the best thing to encourage loving behavior?

who'd a thunk it?
2013-01-22 03:23:02 PM
1 votes:

Space_Poet: but I feel your tactic is just trying to paint me as a hypocrite


His tactic is to endlessly ask questions to parade you around by the nose. There is no other goal.
2013-01-22 02:27:27 PM
1 votes:

latenite: The Big Bang is an example. Many scientists hope to explain how something came to be from nothing without the existence of God, but can't do it at this time. Science of the gaps.


Wow ... this might be the most concise misunderstanding of science I've ever seen. Bravo.

You understand that the following is true:

- atheism has nothing to do with the big bang theory

- many religious people believe the big bang theory is a well supported theory and may be true

- science has absolutely nothing to do with god(s) - it is simply a method of discovery

- science is 100% about explaining the gaps (just like religion) - the difference being that science uses independently verified evidence

- to say science "can't do it at this time" doesn't make sense. You can say that you feel that a scientific theory, like the big bang theory, lacks sufficient evidence to convince you that it is correct at this time. Of course, you should probably look at the evidence and make sure you have enough background in the field to understand it before you make this claim.
2013-01-22 02:03:00 PM
1 votes:

Seraphym: I don't want to detract from the derp in this derptastic thread, but as hstein3 pointed out:

"A team of behaviour experts asked a group of Malaysian people with different religious backgrounds to take part in a series of tasks involving sharing money with other participants" means this study is only valid within Malaysian culture of Malaysians actually living in Malaysia, and that's assuming their selection pool was large enough and spread enough across Malaysian culture to even accurately reflect that.

I find it amusing, though, that they are purporting to convey these results from a small, very insular culture in the South Pacific to the entire world. This is how to lie with statistics - don't understand them in the first place, and them report them to a bunch of other people who don't understand them either.

Classic.


On the other hand, there is another recent article showing much the same thing across 3 studies using quite a diverse sample. If you're interested, the citation is below, as well as a description of their samples across the three studies.

Saslow, L. R., Willer, R., Feinberg, M., Piff, P. K., Clark, K., Keltner, D., & Saturn, S. R. (2012). My brother's keeper? Compassion predicts generosity more among less religious individuals. Social Psychological and Personality Science.

Description of samples:
Study 1: 1337 adults in the US - 1076 white, 158 black, 103 other.
Study 2: 101 adults recruited through Amazon's Mechanical Turk - sample included 78 European Americans, 8 Asian Americans, 6 African Americans, the rest other or mixed ethnicity.
Study 3: 210 college students - 64 European/European American, 97 Asian/Asian American, the rest mixed, other, or did not report ethnicity.

In fact, the results of the Saslow et al. article I just mentioned are so similar to those described in TFA that based on the headline that's the study I thought it was about.

While I understand the general criticism against inductive reasoning, one must also make sure that other work on this question either (a) has not been done or (b) has been done and found null results before launching off into a quite casual dismissal of the results of a single study. As it stands, other research (e.g. what I just cited) has found much the same general conclusion from a different cultural background. More to the point, though, is that even from this single study we could theoretically posit that it doesn't matter what cultural background they come from if religious dogmas are supposed to be (as adherents claim) invariant. That is to say, if Christianity or Islam or Hinduism or whatever contributes to people behaving in a moral way, it should do so regardless of if the Christian/Muslim/Hindu is from Malaysia or the US or India or wherever. To dismiss it in the way several people in the thread - yourself included - have is to then say that religion (whichever flavor you like) works differently than has been pushed by every ardent religious supporter, i.e. that the values and virtues of religion X supersede any cultural baggage in making people good, upstanding, moral, whatever (the converse for negative attributes is also true, that religion supersedes cultural baggage in making people xenophobic, racist, authoritarian, etc.).

My biggest complaint about all this is that I cannot find the actual article to review it. I've found a couple of press releases discussing it (almost verbatim from this one) but not the actual published (or pre-print of the) study. There is nothing to let me know how to find it except that a Dr. Robert Hoffmann is a co-author. His own website at Nottingham University isn't much help either. The closest I can find is a reference to a working paper titled "Religious biases in cooperation" where they found that "[k]nowledge of co-player's same religious affiliation raises cooperation. Religiosity and religious fundamentalism do not affect contributions independently, but enhance the religious ingroup effect" from a sample of Malaysians. And the citation for where I got that information is:

Hoffmann, R.(2012). The Experimental Economics of Religion. Journal of Economic Surveys. doi: 10.1111/j.1467-6419.2011.00716.x

But still, I want the actual damn paper.
2013-01-22 01:57:34 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: Incorrect. I don't have to ridicule someone in order to note that their idea is ridiculous. For instance, I don't have to ridicule you for your ridiculous notion that people aren't allowed ridicule that which you think is deserving. I can just point out the many people that have, the greatest being, IMHO, Mark Twain.



Actually, it was your argument that ridicule isn't the proper response to ridiculous ideas. I was arguing the exact opposite. If you're going to argue that I'm wrong you're going to have to start by getting which of us is arguing what correct first. I also didn't say you HAD to, only that there was nothing wrong with it and that it is indeed a good response to a ridiculous (root word: ridicule) idea.

So as I was saying, when you treat a ridiculous idea as a serious one - instead of ridiculing it as is perfectly proper - you give the idea false merit. Some ideas ARE ridiculous - which literally means worthy of ridicule. For instance, if I tried to sell you on any of the Abrahamic religions - but changed the names so you thought I was just inventing a new one - the details would be so blatantly stupid that you simply could not take me seriously. You'd laugh in my face. But because religion in general has had a few thousand years without serious challenges (other then one religion competing against another of course) these same idiotic, dumbshiat, "ideas" have attained a level of legitimacy that allows them to dictate to the people who write our laws and lead our country.
2013-01-22 01:54:38 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: jso2897:
How does one criticize a paranoid without making them feel that they are being "ridiculed", or "persecuted"?
Or should people with paranoid belief systems be held above criticism?
if I were to opine that the world is a behavioral lab being run by invisible unicorns who live on the other side of the Moon, would those who pointed out that the belief is ridiculous be somehow "intellectually insecure"?
It is not "ridicule' to point out that that which is ridiculous, is, in fact, ridiculous. Ridiculous things are ridiculous due to their own ridiculous natures - not to the external observations of those with the wit to perceive that they are ridiculous.
You are trying to make up your own, arbitrary rules of human social intercourse - and they don't apply in the real world. Leave the "fair and balanced" delusion to the Faux News crowd - it fails in actual reality.

Pointing out something is ridiculous and ridiculing someone are not the same thing. Your premise is built on your misunderstanding of the original point.

People will continue to use ridicule, it's not something I would encourage because there have been very few situations of ridicule that aren't meant to make the ridiculer* feel better about what they believe and by extension themselves, by tearing into the ridiculee*. Engage in it all you want, but your intellectual prowess isn't as strong as you think if that's all you can bring to the table.

/*I make up words for fun.


Yeah - but the problem is that the paranoid mentality perceives anything that isn't 100% agreement as persecution and/or ridicule - and the more bizarre and absurd people's beliefs are, the more likely they are to be that way. So while you are right that there is little percentage in deliberately "ridiculing' people, there are many cases where avoiding the perception that one is engaging in ridicule would require one either to lie or remain silent.
2013-01-22 01:42:57 PM
1 votes:

jso2897: Rich Cream: I drunk what: Rich Cream: Well, if we're talking about what he-said-He-said then let's get back to the original "quote" and not some made-up thing.

the whole thing is made up, they are all myths, only science is real


You only believe in science. It's not tangible either.

Tell that to the elderly residents of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.


Or look at the damn cell phone in his pocket.
2013-01-22 01:41:35 PM
1 votes:

jso2897:
How does one criticize a paranoid without making them feel that they are being "ridiculed", or "persecuted"?
Or should people with paranoid belief systems be held above criticism?
if I were to opine that the world is a behavioral lab being run by invisible unicorns who live on the other side of the Moon, would those who pointed out that the belief is ridiculous be somehow "intellectually insecure"?
It is not "ridicule' to point out that that which is ridiculous, is, in fact, ridiculous. Ridiculous things are ridiculous due to their own ridiculous natures - not to the external observations of those with the wit to perceive that they are ridiculous.
You are trying to make up your own, arbitrary rules of human social intercourse - and they don't apply in the real world. Leave the "fair and balanced" delusion to the Faux News crowd - it fails in actual reality.


Pointing out something is ridiculous and ridiculing someone are not the same thing. Your premise is built on your misunderstanding of the original point.

People will continue to use ridicule, it's not something I would encourage because there have been very few situations of ridicule that aren't meant to make the ridiculer* feel better about what they believe and by extension themselves, by tearing into the ridiculee*. Engage in it all you want, but your intellectual prowess isn't as strong as you think if that's all you can bring to the table.

/*I make up words for fun.
2013-01-22 01:37:16 PM
1 votes:

Rich Cream: I drunk what: Rich Cream: Well, if we're talking about what he-said-He-said then let's get back to the original "quote" and not some made-up thing.

the whole thing is made up, they are all myths, only science is real


You only believe in science. It's not tangible either.


Tell that to the elderly residents of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
2013-01-22 01:35:46 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: Communication is key. For instance, a smart gentlemen once said "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." and also said "religion poisons everything". Both statements are used universally by many atheists yet the second statement was spoken without proper evidence, and faithfully believed by many.


Perhaps it was spoken without simultaneously stating evidence, but that doesn't mean that the evidence for the veracity of the statement is not plentiful.

Frankly, this is a situation where another oft-spoken phrase is apropos:

"It goes without saying".
2013-01-22 01:23:30 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: punkhippie:
Oh horseshiat. Ridicule is a very efficient way to indicate that something isn't worth a serious response. It goes back as far as human language.

Stop cowering behind fake rules of etiquette. Nobody is fooled.

I've used ridicule many times, and I'll use it in the future, but doesn't make it right or effective and I've done more harm than good IMHO. It's those life lessons you learn, then forget and repeat. I


How does one criticize a paranoid without making them feel that they are being "ridiculed", or "persecuted"?
Or should people with paranoid belief systems be held above criticism?
if I were to opine that the world is a behavioral lab being run by invisible unicorns who live on the other side of the Moon, would those who pointed out that the belief is ridiculous be somehow "intellectually insecure"?
It is not "ridicule' to point out that that which is ridiculous, is, in fact, ridiculous. Ridiculous things are ridiculous due to their own ridiculous natures - not to the external observations of those with the wit to perceive that they are ridiculous.
You are trying to make up your own, arbitrary rules of human social intercourse - and they don't apply in the real world. Leave the "fair and balanced" delusion to the Faux News crowd - it fails in actual reality.
2013-01-22 01:18:46 PM
1 votes:
My parents believe that they are religious because they go to church. I swear they truly believe that there's a chart somewhere that will indicate they are OK to enter heaven because they were in the 98% percentile. Meanwhile after church, they go to a restaurant for breakfast and treat the server and staff like servants and tip 5% because they 'never really get go service there'. Yea religion!
2013-01-22 01:17:13 PM
1 votes:
Religion is used to justify why the person hates their neighbor so much.

Besides, those who distrust completely, are distrustful themselves.
2013-01-22 01:15:33 PM
1 votes:

latenite: Almea Tarrant: latenite: A. Yeah, people are greedy, stupid, selfish, etc. Not news. The question is, are they following the principles of their religion at the time? If not, you're merely judging a sick man for needing a doctor.

B. While we're at it, let's forget about the hospitals, universities, charities, etc. that have been established on behalf of one religion or another.

Interesting point on A. My counterpoint is that as religion is basically supposed to provide tenets by which to live you life, if people "need the doctor" a lot, then the system altogether probably isn't too healthy.

And for a balanced argument, including B. would make it necessary to include:

C. All the wars, murders, torture, and brainwashing that have occurred in the name of one religion or another.

How much health care a person needs has more to do with how sick the person is rather than the quality of the health care.

Also, I mentioned (B.) because all I see posted in regards to religion is (C.). But how much sense does it make to judge God based on the faults of His followers in the first place?


No one is judging God. We are judging religion. Which is a human invention, and thus extremely fallible. All your misdirection does is show us all how illogical your argument is.
2013-01-22 01:15:16 PM
1 votes:
walk the middle path.
live and let live.
leave it better than you found it.
do no harm.
2013-01-22 01:14:03 PM
1 votes:

fickenchucker: ...and I was kidding about Islamian--I know it's Muslim.


Or if they're laid-back and genuinely nice atheists, I wouldn't really care. I'm not much into evangelizing a belief system anymore or finding reasons to be annoyed at everyone.
2013-01-22 01:11:58 PM
1 votes:

skipjack: umad:

You can't use logic on an illogical person. Ridicule is all that is left.

You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.

If ridicule is all you have left, then you haven't communicated effectively. That you feel you need to use ridicule says more about you than the person you're ridiculing.



This is simply untrue. What you're relying on here is false equivalence. Not all ideas are of equal merit or value. Some are simply ridiculous and if you do not treat them as ridiculous (note the root of the word "ridiculous") you lend them the veneer of legitimacy that they do not deserve.

Take religions for example. People treat them VERY seriously, even though they pretty much all are absolutely, hilariously, ridiculously, idiotic when you break them down in to what people are actually asking you to believe as fact. But because religions went virtually unchallenged for millenia (and are still seen as valuable tools to control and harvest wealth from masses of people) by non-believers these ancient myths run many, many, many peoples' lives around the world. We even have lawmakers who want to put their religious beliefs and teachings in to LAW! It's insane, but that's what you get when you're not allowed to ridicule that which is deserving of it.

But if I told you today to believe me when I said that everyone has an invisible thing called a "wathan" which carries our mind magically and was gifted to us by a mysterious creator with magic powers who saw all and was judging us all from his home in the sky. That this creator and his cohorts promised us an eternal life after we die so long as we agree to follow the rules.... Well you'd laugh at me, because what I was describing would sound like some kind of fantasy novel - which it is. That's a very broad description of Riverworld by Philip Jose Farmer. But change "wathan" to "soul" and that's also the "Abrahamic" religions too. Riverworld was penned in a time that you wouldn't necessarily get stoned to death for questioning it, so it hasn't had a few thousand years to be mistaken as fact and go unchallenged until it has a comfy nest in a place between our unconcious and societal acceptance. That's the difference between fantasy we believe as fact and fantasy we still understand is fantasy.
2013-01-22 01:03:51 PM
1 votes:

Fast Moon: The article seems to indicate that your religion functions like, and has essentially the same effect on your behavior as, "team colors".


which is why you see so much of the big tent CHRISTIANITY... inclusive of anything that has 'jesus' in it... protestant, catholic, mormon, JW, 7thday adventist... all one big happy christian family (ignore the differences between us... we're all CHRISTIANS) it makes their 'team' look bigger than the 'other team'... but if the non-christian religion were gone they'd go back to hating and killing each other... the same way the muslims are with their various sects... if there is an 'other' religion to hate/kill then they are all kind of one big happy group... but take away the 'outsiders'... and they'll happily return to killing each other for obscure divergences from scripture or whether or not god wants you to shave and get a haircut... or not.
2013-01-22 12:59:17 PM
1 votes:
The two worst problems I've had in the last year were because of the two most devout Christians I've been unfortunate enough to have to deal with this year. Both did everything they could to ruin my life because I wasn't one of them. And I am one of the nicest guys you've ever met, did absolutely nothing to provoke them. They just didn't like that I was "different" and therefore should be marginalized and eliminated.

I take the Buddhist approach to religion, if they are good people then who am I to care what God they worship? Unfortunately I usually find that they aren't really good people, just people with such poor morals that they need a God club to join to feel as if they are worthy human beings and since people like me, who need no threats to be good aren't part of their club then I must be a threat.

/There are close to 5000 human made Gods throughout the ages
//if there is a God, humans could not understand it and therefore should concentrate on living the best life they can
///I don't trust man, and man invented the Gods that he commands you to worship, if you can't see the problem with that...
2013-01-22 12:32:47 PM
1 votes:

enry: Smeggy Smurf: Wadded Beef: From what I see with Christianity it's sin Monday through Saturday, Ctrl-Z on Sunday. I'll pass.

My favorite bit is those that think they can "get saved" and then keep right on sinning like nothing changed.

"Oh look at me I took a bath and now all my sins are gone! WHOOHOO! Adultery here I come!"

Actually it's way more complicated (and worse) than that. Catholics think that you can be 'saved' by going to confession and through good works, the born again think it's by just saying it, and the more Calvinist think that what you do or say has nothing to do with you being saved or not. God just..picks at random?

/been a while since I actually studied it, so I might be wrong


My personal experiences include my neighbors ("good," Sunday-Church-goin-folk), who would tell me some right-wing BS such as Obama is horrible, how expanding health care is "awful" and how the Iraq War is more than justified despite the previous administration's outright lies to trick the public into supporting it -- almost making George Orwell shoot up from his grave shouting "NAILED IT!"

"Would Jesus espouse ANY of these views?" I would ask them. From there I got mealy-mouthed crap about how 'Merica needs protecting, Supply-Side-Jesus, etc. I didn't even want to KNOW their views on gay people.

Everyone's mileage may vary, but I'm pretty convinced that it's some flat-out hate, disguised as 'love thy neighbor', for society other than those who look/think like they do.
2013-01-22 12:19:55 PM
1 votes:

Farking Canuck: [csb]

When I was young and my family was trying to get out of our badly designed church parking lot, my dad would laugh and point out all the "parking lot rage" that was going in. These people had literally just been inside the church, shaking hands and saying "peace be with you" and now they were ready to kill each other over who is next to leave the parking lot.

I think my father pointing out this blatant hypocrisy set me on the path to atheism. Something I will always thank him for.

[/csb]


Had the exact same experience. That and the fact that the people who gave the most to the church (these lists were printed and distributed every six months) were customarily seated in the front rows at each service they attended. Not joking, this actually happened. I was raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school through 12th grade, but in religion class would often be sent to the principal's office for arguing with the nuns over religious dogma that I disagreed with.
Was probably just a smartass little prick that knew enough to really get them pissed, but the incongruities bothered me enough that I never went back to church, and never will.
Hypocrisy, cant abide by it, wont have it.
2013-01-22 12:19:42 PM
1 votes:
religion helps people justify anti-social behavior.
2013-01-22 12:13:28 PM
1 votes:

latenite: A. Yeah, people are greedy, stupid, selfish, etc. Not news. The question is, are they following the principles of their religion at the time? If not, you're merely judging a sick man for needing a doctor.

B. While we're at it, let's forget about the hospitals, universities, charities, etc. that have been established on behalf of one religion or another.


When the number of people who use their faith as an excuse to shiat on others FAR outweigh the number of people who are truly pious, religion has failed. You know why it failed and will continue to fail? Because religion is a human invention with extreme fallibility.
2013-01-22 12:10:43 PM
1 votes:
When "love thy neighbor" was written, your neighbor most likely looked, acted, and believed a lot like you.
2013-01-22 12:08:45 PM
1 votes:
I'll add that one of the good things about my church is I meet and interact with a fairly diverse group of people on every end of the political spectrum that I wouldn't normally deal with. Almost none of them were in the same professional or social circles I was in.

Since I'm kinda forced to deal with them on a weekly basis, I think my tolerance and understanding of others has actually gone up.

I'm not going to call the study BS, because a sample size of 1 does not allow me to call BS, and I know there's religions out there that pretty much demand you cut off anyone who doesn't share your faith.
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-22 12:08:00 PM
1 votes:

latenite: A. Yeah, people are greedy, stupid, selfish, etc. Not news. The question is, are they following the principles of their religion at the time? If not, you're merely judging a sick man for needing a doctor.


To take a cue from your writing here, the fact the many of the pseudo-Christians believe openly that health care is "not a right" and are often openly fine with a person dying because they don't have money to pay a hospital answers your question here. There is nothing more anti-Christian or against the bible's teaching than being okay with the death of a person for want of money to pay a doctor. However this is what the loud "Christian" contingent believes and often says on a day-to-day basis.
2013-01-22 12:02:35 PM
1 votes:
A. Yeah, people are greedy, stupid, selfish, etc. Not news. The question is, are they following the principles of their religion at the time? If not, you're merely judging a sick man for needing a doctor.

B. While we're at it, let's forget about the hospitals, universities, charities, etc. that have been established on behalf of one religion or another.
2013-01-22 12:00:11 PM
1 votes:

umad: You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.


Iron Man
2013-01-22 11:59:32 AM
1 votes:

Ennuipoet: Ask the Canaanites how religion made for good neighbors, or the Jews, the Gnostics, the Muslims in Spain, the Cathars, the Catholics in England, the Mormons in Missouri. et al how religion makes folks so great neighbors.


You mean Mormons in Illinois, not Missouri.
That all went down in Nauvoo, IL (Founding of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith getting shot, etc. etc.) and then his followers went off to Utah. The remaining non-Mormon sect (calling themselves the REORGANIZED church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints) then went down MO and became less Mormon-y (basically your average protestants), while the Utah branch remained the fun loving no-alchochol-no-caffeine-no-dancing-but-polygomy-is-ok bunch we all know and love today.
2013-01-22 11:58:59 AM
1 votes:
Love your neighbor? No

Fleece your neighbor? Absolutely. It's what Jesus would do.
2013-01-22 11:53:53 AM
1 votes:

tbhouston: i realluy donut geut whuy people keeup adding the letture "U" to wourds... stop it!


Maybe they are, or want to sound, English?

They may have "invented" the language, but we Americans got it right :)
2013-01-22 11:53:02 AM
1 votes:
Ah yes, love everyone. Except the queers. Can't love them. Oh, and the fornicators - they're sinners you know. And that family over there doesn't tithe, so let's not include them. And I heard that guy over there skipped church last week to watch a football game - he's obviously not a true believer. I heard that lady over there voted Democrat - I saw the sticker on her car. She obviously doesn't practice what we preach. Mary is divorced - she doesn't follow god's word, so she's out, too. I heard John's daughter got an abortion when she was 15. That whole family is just nothing but trouble.

Well, I guess the ten of us can just sit here in our smugness and know that we're god's favorites because we do everything we are supposed to.
2013-01-22 11:52:26 AM
1 votes:

My neighbors dislike my ritualistic shouting of


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

And claim it's some kind of noise ordinance violation. Freedom of religious expression, my ass.

KILL MAIM BURN
2013-01-22 11:45:56 AM
1 votes:
Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study all of human history.
2013-01-22 11:45:52 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: We are social animals, and we are inherently compassionate and kind to our peers.


No, we have the capability; that does't mean we make the most of it. A lot is made of that eternal question, "Are humans inherently good or bad?" Even setting aside sociopaths, I think the truth is far more depressing than anyone realizes: All humans have the inherent capacity for empathy and cruelty. What makes humans unique is that we use our developed brains to treat empathy like it's a bad thing, and conversely justify cruelty to trigger responses typically evolved for emotional reward. Religion is a useful cudgel, but any combination of demonization, denial and logical fallacy can achieve the same results. There's plenty of evidence of cruelty among other higher mammals, even social ones, but there's a sort of honesty to it. If a gorilla starts making all kinds of noise and tries to appear as large as possible, I know to give him his space. Even rats are capable of altruism, but Orwellian hypocrisy requires humanity.
2013-01-22 11:44:45 AM
1 votes:
Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study
No, according to all of recorded history.


FTFM
2013-01-22 11:42:36 AM
1 votes:
i1.cpcache.com
2013-01-22 11:39:56 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: skipjack: OTOH the ridicule those that disagree with you proverb is in full force.

We could be intellectual cowards, wringing our hands and pretending that all ideas about the world are equally valid and immune to criticism because they might be quite deeply held by people and we wouldn't want to offend them. Or we could heap ridicule on ridiculous beliefs where we find them.

The latter is far more honest.


It's not more honest to ridicule those that disagree with you, it's a response by someone insecure in their own beliefs.
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-22 11:39:54 AM
1 votes:

incendi: UberDave: ou mean the most simple and easy to follow doctrines like being kind to one another, turning the other cheek, not showboating your righteousness, not judging, etc. etc., are often ignored?

Simple, yes. Easy to follow, not so much.

But yes, it seems many Christians are much more concerned with  other people's sinfulness while ignoring one of the central tenets of Jesus's teachings: "Don't be an asshole."


This is so true. Jesus also cared about the poor and the outcast which is polar opposite to what many churches are teaching. Like the "mega Churches" in the South. "God want's you to be successful!"... and give more money to the church so the pastor can get a new Rolls.
2013-01-22 11:39:04 AM
1 votes:
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!


Alalalalalalalalalalalalalalala

BOOM!
2013-01-22 11:36:58 AM
1 votes:

UberDave: ou mean the most simple and easy to follow doctrines like being kind to one another, turning the other cheek, not showboating your righteousness, not judging, etc. etc., are often ignored?


Simple, yes. Easy to follow, not so much.

But yes, it seems many Christians are much more concerned with  other people's sinfulness while ignoring one of the central tenets of Jesus's teachings: "Don't be an asshole."
2013-01-22 11:36:26 AM
1 votes:

mgshamster: The number 7 and the letter Q!: Any system that teaches good morals can help a person love their neighbor. The operative word here is "can". There are jerks of every stripe and sect. A jerk who says he believes in a god is still a jerk. A jerk who does not believe in a god is still a jerk.

In my case, my religious upbringing helped me. I was lucky enough not to be raised by jerks, and to grow up with a truly loving minister (he was a leftover hippie who took Jesus' command to love incredibly seriously. He was awesome).

By your own words, it wasn't your religious upbringing that helped you, it was that you are simply not a jerk. Or possibly that you were raised by people who are not jerks. But the religious aspect has nothing to do with it.


I wouldn't say that it had nothing to do with it. I would say that it was a great context for learning what I learned. I don't think it's the only context where a person could learn it, though.
2013-01-22 11:35:58 AM
1 votes:
I don't love anyone unless we are blood related or we swap bodily fluids on a daily basis. Everyone else is just strangers when you get right down to it.
2013-01-22 11:35:25 AM
1 votes:
My pappy used to say "follow the money" about EVERYTHING in life. Roads, schools, businesses, newspapers, milk, canned goods, religion--freakin' everything. He said money explains all human behavior.

But he was right. Money is the root of the hate throughout history. Every religion may want to do its version of the most good, but knows deep down you need money to do it, so they tribalize their thought processes to keep their flocks in line--and donating money.

I've always taught my kids we're Catholic because that's how I was raised and I'm not really in the mood to learn a new set of rules. But if they want to go Lutheran or something else that's not an outright cult (like Scientology) they won't get any weird family fighting from me.

The theatrical and made-up procedural rules is what gets people bent out of joint against each other, and all of them should be classified as ethnic & historical traditions, rather than edicts from God justifying the smiting (or just snottiness) towards one's neighbors.
2013-01-22 11:32:39 AM
1 votes:

miscreant: MonoChango: Maybe.. Just maybe, it depends on the Religion.

Doesn't seem to be what the study found. They even included non-religious in there, and I'd bet everyone is just as likely to fall into this. They were told they had something in common with the other person they were interacting with. That will make people more generous and trusting of the other person. I doubt it even has to be religion. You could probably do this with hobbies and get a similar result.


A big, charbroiled and juicy hunk of THIS, served to everyone in the thread.
2013-01-22 11:29:32 AM
1 votes:

The number 7 and the letter Q!: Any system that teaches good morals can help a person love their neighbor. The operative word here is "can". There are jerks of every stripe and sect. A jerk who says he believes in a god is still a jerk. A jerk who does not believe in a god is still a jerk.

In my case, my religious upbringing helped me. I was lucky enough not to be raised by jerks, and to grow up with a truly loving minister (he was a leftover hippie who took Jesus' command to love incredibly seriously. He was awesome).


By your own words, it wasn't your religious upbringing that helped you, it was that you are simply not a jerk. Or possibly that you were raised by people who are not jerks. But the religious aspect has nothing to do with it.
2013-01-22 11:28:08 AM
1 votes:

The number 7 and the letter Q!: Any system that teaches good morals can help a person love their neighbor


I sincerely doubt that pro-social behavior is something that can be learned. I think that human beings, by and large, instinctively engage in pro-social behaviors. There are inherent conflicts with our limitations in that regard (we're great in societies of 20ish people, we start failing in societies of thousands, and it gets all farked up when you try and build a society of millions), but that's not because we need to learn to "love our neighbor". We simply need to recognize that these strangers are our neighbor.

We are social animals, and we are inherently compassionate and kind to our peers. Those that are not are deviants, and I do not believe that education fixes it- it's a biological issue that must be treated.
2013-01-22 11:26:44 AM
1 votes:

Citrate1007: Most people just use religion to justify their own inner demons to themselves.


This is my brother. I had to work on my shiat for years to become any kind of a decent person......he found religion. Now he's both confused and still has inner demons.
2013-01-22 11:26:42 AM
1 votes:

Wadded Beef: From what I see with Christianity it's sin Monday through Saturday, Ctrl-Z on Sunday. I'll pass.


My favorite bit is those that think they can "get saved" and then keep right on sinning like nothing changed.

"Oh look at me I took a bath and now all my sins are gone! WHOOHOO! Adultery here I come!"
2013-01-22 11:25:37 AM
1 votes:
Religion helps with loving your neighbor...providing that your neighbor believes in the same deity that you do.
2013-01-22 11:25:05 AM
1 votes:
Any system that teaches good morals can help a person love their neighbor. The operative word here is "can". There are jerks of every stripe and sect. A jerk who says he believes in a god is still a jerk. A jerk who does not believe in a god is still a jerk.

In my case, my religious upbringing helped me. I was lucky enough not to be raised by jerks, and to grow up with a truly loving minister (he was a leftover hippie who took Jesus' command to love incredibly seriously. He was awesome).
2013-01-22 11:21:45 AM
1 votes:
It helps you hate them for being different and not as good as you.
2013-01-22 11:21:09 AM
1 votes:

Citrate1007: Most people just use religion to justify their own inner demons to themselves.


Like my ex-wife who uses the "don't be vain" to justify ballooning up to around 450lbs. In a way she's right. She's not enticing men into lustful thoughts.
2013-01-22 11:20:50 AM
1 votes:
Religion still seems like a great reason to kill your neighbor.
2013-01-22 11:17:43 AM
1 votes:
Most people just use religion to justify their own inner demons to themselves.
2013-01-22 11:13:22 AM
1 votes:
I believe that the study was done in earnest, and maybe it is instructive that a lot of people are hypocrites.

I spent a lot of time reading different religious texts and found a lot in those different texts to inspire me. When my focus was on that, I believe that my general attitude toward others was better than when it had been a while. It took my focus off of me and onto principles that I consider more universal. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing in itself.
2013-01-22 11:03:30 AM
1 votes:
I didn't follow "love your neighbor like you love yourself" cause I didn't want to have to start jerking them off too.
2013-01-22 11:01:36 AM
1 votes:
religion does not make people more kind or trusting

But it sure makes them credulous.
2013-01-22 10:51:49 AM
1 votes:
Ask the Canaanites how religion made for good neighbors, or the Jews, the Gnostics, the Muslims in Spain, the Cathars, the Catholics in England, the Mormons in Missouri. et al how religion makes folks so great neighbors.
 
Displayed 83 of 83 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report