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(Telegraph)   Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 317
    More: Obvious, faiths  
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10482 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jan 2013 at 11:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-22 11:40:29 AM
I've known a few good Christians. My mother is one of them. Christ knows she was about as Christian with me when I was a kid as possible. She had the patience of.....whats his name. And when I went to church as a kid there were some really good Christian people. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't taking any choir boys into the rectory.

I've also known some evil motherfarkers who called themselves Christians. In fact the ratio isn't very encouraging. A few Jehova's Witnesses come to mind as I mentioned in earlier posts. I used to think the Amish were the perfect Christians but I've read articles that they can be assholes too.

The irony is that the Jews who I know (and I work in film film so I know a lot) are the least judgmental and are least likely to try to convert you (frankly they don't want us), even though they just have the Old Testament with the fire and brimstone and genocide and locusts to fall back on. While the supposed Christians (and I'm not saying all but a lot), are the ones who supposedly have all this good shiat from Jesus about love and forgiveness and acceptance of whores and charity and sharing and whores and they're the ones always pushing the fire and brimstone and genocide and locusts. It's a mad house.
 
2013-01-22 11:41:19 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Like my ex-wife who uses the "don't be vain" to justify ballooning up to around 450lbs. In a way she's right. She's not enticing men into lustful thoughts.


On the other hand, sloth and gluttony exhibit terrible stewardship of God's gifts (in this case, plenty of food and a working body).
 
2013-01-22 11:42:08 AM
Well since your neighbor isn't going to heavan because he doesn't worship the right sky dragon, you can kill him with impunity

So its got that going for it.
 
2013-01-22 11:42:36 AM
i1.cpcache.com
 
2013-01-22 11:43:04 AM
Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over

Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
They call it "The Earth" which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right 'cause we behave the same
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black 'n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin' the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
And pretty soon there won't be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
To arms, to arms
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
Not his, not hers but what the hey
The good book says, "It's gotta be that way"
But their book says, "Revenge the crusades"
With whips 'n chains and hand grenades
Two arms, two arms
Have another and another
Our Cod says, "There ain't no other"
Our Cod says, "It's all ok"
Our god says "This is the way"
It says in the book, "Burn and destroy"
And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book and that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, 'cause he can really take care of business
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it's ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
'Cause if we don't do it we ain't "Gwine up to hebbin"
Depending on which book you're using at the time
Can't use theirs, it don't work, it's all lies, gotta use mine
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night, everyday
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following god's orders
Well let's get serious, god knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says, "He made us all to be just like him"
So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
 
2013-01-22 11:43:55 AM
Repeat from 32 AD, 1095 AD, 1492 AD, and 2001 AD
 
2013-01-22 11:44:35 AM

EddieWearsUnderoos: Your sound, rational logic is not welcome here, good sir.

/but I'll subscribe to your newsletter


Yeah... it's a religion thread, so the fact that you could probably repeat this experiment with cities, nationalities, hobbies, or sexual fetishes and get the same result will be ignored.
 
2013-01-22 11:44:37 AM

Cymbal: I don't love anyone unless we are blood related or we swap bodily fluids on a daily basis. Everyone else is just strangers when you get right down to it.


What's your mailing address? I'll start sending you some urine...
 
2013-01-22 11:44:45 AM
Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study
No, according to all of recorded history.


FTFM
 
2013-01-22 11:45:07 AM
Is alcoholism a religion?
 
2013-01-22 11:45:36 AM
I love my 20yo something neighbor when she leaves her bedroom curtains open and the changes in front of the window.
 
2013-01-22 11:45:52 AM

t3knomanser: We are social animals, and we are inherently compassionate and kind to our peers.


No, we have the capability; that does't mean we make the most of it. A lot is made of that eternal question, "Are humans inherently good or bad?" Even setting aside sociopaths, I think the truth is far more depressing than anyone realizes: All humans have the inherent capacity for empathy and cruelty. What makes humans unique is that we use our developed brains to treat empathy like it's a bad thing, and conversely justify cruelty to trigger responses typically evolved for emotional reward. Religion is a useful cudgel, but any combination of demonization, denial and logical fallacy can achieve the same results. There's plenty of evidence of cruelty among other higher mammals, even social ones, but there's a sort of honesty to it. If a gorilla starts making all kinds of noise and tries to appear as large as possible, I know to give him his space. Even rats are capable of altruism, but Orwellian hypocrisy requires humanity.
 
2013-01-22 11:45:56 AM
Does religion help you "Love your neighbour"? No, according to this study all of human history.
 
2013-01-22 11:46:35 AM

skipjack: It's not more honest to ridicule those that disagree with you, it's a response by someone insecure in their own beliefs.


It is very honest to ridicule ridiculous beliefs. The fact that the believers view it as a personal assault and not a statement of fact is unfortunate, but the very definition of "not my problem".
 
2013-01-22 11:46:50 AM

germ78: Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over

Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
They call it "The Earth" which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right 'cause we behave the same
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black 'n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin' the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
And pretty soon there won't be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
I mean it won't blow up and disappear, it'll just look ugly for a thousand years
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
To arms, to arms
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
Not his, not hers but what the hey
The good book says, "It's gotta be that way"
But their book says, "Revenge the crusades"
With whips 'n chains and hand grenades
Two arms, two arms
Have another and another
Our Cod says, "There ain't no other"
Our Cod says, "It's all ok"
Our god says "This is the way"
It says in the book, "Burn and destroy"
And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book and that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, 'cause he can really take care of business
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it's ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
'Cause if we don't do it we ain't "Gwine up to hebbin"
Depending on which book you're using at the time
Can't use theirs, it don't work, it's all lies, gotta use mine
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night, everyday
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following god's orders
Well let's get serious, god knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says, "He made us all to be just like him"
So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side


It's not 1995, and this is not an AOL chat room. Please don't think it's cool to post song lyrics. Never was cool in the first place.
 
2013-01-22 11:47:23 AM

Random Anonymous Blackmail: Is alcoholism a religion?


It often leads to prayer at the altar of the porcelain god.
 
2013-01-22 11:47:27 AM
And this is news to whom?
 
2013-01-22 11:48:21 AM
One of the purposes of religion is to distinguish an in group from out groups.

A religious dictum such as thou shall not kill only applies to the in-group. Cheating or killing foreigners is fine.

This perspective makes certain moral contradictions go away. For example, if you can't kill then how can an in-group impose capital punishment on its members? Easy. Transgressions such as female adultery or disrespect of elders means that the transgressor no longer obeys the religious rules which makes them no longer part of the in group and thus ok to kill.
 
2013-01-22 11:48:57 AM
You folks can keep arguing, but I just wanted to point out the idiocy of the study.

FTFA:
A team of behaviour experts asked a group of Malaysian people with different religious backgrounds to take part in a series of tasks involving sharing money with other participants.
In one task people were given an imaginary sum of money and given the option of sending some to another participant.
They were told that whatever they did not send they would be able to keep but also that the participant could chose to send some of it back - which would then be tripled.
They had to judge how "generous" to be.
Participants included Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and non-religious volunteers
The team noticed that there was little difference between levels of co-operation and generosity when people knew nothing of the other person's beliefs and when they knew that they were of different persuasions.
But when told that the other person shared their religion they were markedly more trusting and generous with the money.


"Team of behavior experts," more likely grad students. And how did Nottingham University Business School find a large group of Malaysian people?

Reporting on studies, psychological or otherwise, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Studies like this generally need to be taken with their own grain of salt. All in all, I doubt it's reflective of reality.
 
2013-01-22 11:49:12 AM

dragonchild: No, we have the capability; that does't mean we make the most of it.


The vast majority of human beings are built with the innate ability to run. Not all of us are going to run marathons or a 4 minute mile, but we can all run. Those that can't run are considered the exceptions, the deviations.

And just because we can run doesn't mean we will (I'll do all sorts of exercises, but I refuse to run).

But we don't need to be taught to run. It's an inherent capacity that comes along with being human.
 
2013-01-22 11:50:06 AM

hstein3: You folks can keep arguing, but I just wanted to point out the idiocy of the study.

FTFA:
A team of behaviour experts asked a group of Malaysian people with different religious backgrounds to take part in a series of tasks involving sharing money with other participants.
In one task people were given an imaginary sum of money and given the option of sending some to another participant.
They were told that whatever they did not send they would be able to keep but also that the participant could chose to send some of it back - which would then be tripled.
They had to judge how "generous" to be.
Participants included Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and non-religious volunteers
The team noticed that there was little difference between levels of co-operation and generosity when people knew nothing of the other person's beliefs and when they knew that they were of different persuasions.
But when told that the other person shared their religion they were markedly more trusting and generous with the money.

"Team of behavior experts," more likely grad students. And how did Nottingham University Business School find a large group of Malaysian people?

Reporting on studies, psychological or otherwise, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Studies like this generally need to be taken with their own grain of salt. All in all, I doubt it's reflective of reality.


Yeah we all know the study is flawed, but we can't let a Fark religion thread go to waste.
 
2013-01-22 11:50:22 AM
Sounds to me like the results of religious leaders instilling their flock with a persecution complex is working as intended.
 
2013-01-22 11:50:38 AM

HairBolus: One of the purposes of religion is to distinguish an in group from out groups.

A religious dictum such as thou shall not kill only applies to the in-group. Cheating or killing foreigners is fine.

This perspective makes certain moral contradictions go away. For example, if you can't kill then how can an in-group impose capital punishment on its members? Easy. Transgressions such as female adultery or disrespect of elders means that the transgressor no longer obeys the religious rules which makes them no longer part of the in group and thus ok to kill.


THIS. CHANGES. EVERYTHING.
 
2013-01-22 11:51:10 AM
i realluy donut geut whuy people keeup adding the letture "U" to wourds... stop it!
 
2013-01-22 11:52:26 AM

My neighbors dislike my ritualistic shouting of


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

And claim it's some kind of noise ordinance violation. Freedom of religious expression, my ass.

KILL MAIM BURN
 
2013-01-22 11:52:28 AM

towatchoverme: miscreant: MonoChango: Maybe.. Just maybe, it depends on the Religion.

Doesn't seem to be what the study found. They even included non-religious in there, and I'd bet everyone is just as likely to fall into this. They were told they had something in common with the other person they were interacting with. That will make people more generous and trusting of the other person. I doubt it even has to be religion. You could probably do this with hobbies and get a similar result.

A big, charbroiled and juicy hunk of THIS, served to everyone in the thread.


I'd assume you're correct. But now do it with nature vs. nurture. See if it works with gender, hair color, shoe size, etc. versus those things like you mentioned which people can choose to be or do on their own.
 
2013-01-22 11:53:02 AM
Ah yes, love everyone. Except the queers. Can't love them. Oh, and the fornicators - they're sinners you know. And that family over there doesn't tithe, so let's not include them. And I heard that guy over there skipped church last week to watch a football game - he's obviously not a true believer. I heard that lady over there voted Democrat - I saw the sticker on her car. She obviously doesn't practice what we preach. Mary is divorced - she doesn't follow god's word, so she's out, too. I heard John's daughter got an abortion when she was 15. That whole family is just nothing but trouble.

Well, I guess the ten of us can just sit here in our smugness and know that we're god's favorites because we do everything we are supposed to.
 
2013-01-22 11:53:48 AM

tbhouston: i realluy donut geut whuy people keeup adding the letture "U" to wourds... stop it!


Since it's actually American english which removed the u from words, and you seem to prefer unchanging spelling, shouldn't you be arguing for the original versions, which included the "U"?
 
2013-01-22 11:53:53 AM

tbhouston: i realluy donut geut whuy people keeup adding the letture "U" to wourds... stop it!


Maybe they are, or want to sound, English?

They may have "invented" the language, but we Americans got it right :)
 
2013-01-22 11:55:07 AM

had98c: But they only do that because they "love" you and want to see you saved as well. Or some kind of bullshiat like that.


When the people of Ramat Bet Shemesh were spitting on little girls and in general making unbelievable asses of themselves, I e-mailed a former rabbi of mine to try and gain some kind of understanding. He's very Orthodox, but nowhere near as much a zealot as those farkwaffles.

I mentioned the concepts of chilul HaShem (causing others to think less of god or his rules is a HUGE no-no in Judaism), the idea that hatred between people is what caused the current Diaspora (as well as the Romans' sacking of Jerusalem and the Temple), and the concept that Jews have long celebrated - that diversity of opinion is a strength, not a weakness ("there are 70 faces of the Torah", says the Talmud).

Anyway, his response was that the zealots see it as a way of maintaining what they have, fearing that the loss of any piece of ground means a loss of the argument - which is, I suppose, why they're "zealots" in the first place. It's a lame, mealy-mouthed response, because it doesn't impart any insight.

And that's the problem. People are dicks. If it wasn't religion, it'd be politics, If it wasn't politics, it'd be sports. If it wasn't sports, it'd be laundry detergents, preferred pets, dick length/vagina depth, number of sharks shot in the face...

Part of the need to feel accepted is the need to define a group by who's not in it. Part of proving oneself to a group may mean attacking those not in it. People are dicks.
 
2013-01-22 11:55:25 AM
I get worried when Fark goes more than 24 hours without a hate speech thread.

Seig heil!
 
2013-01-22 11:56:02 AM

hstein3: You folks can keep arguing, but I just wanted to point out the idiocy of the study.

FTFA:
A team of behaviour experts asked a group of Malaysian people with different religious backgrounds to take part in a series of tasks involving sharing money with other participants.
In one task people were given an imaginary sum of money and given the option of sending some to another participant.
They were told that whatever they did not send they would be able to keep but also that the participant could chose to send some of it back - which would then be tripled.
They had to judge how "generous" to be.
Participants included Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and non-religious volunteers
The team noticed that there was little difference between levels of co-operation and generosity when people knew nothing of the other person's beliefs and when they knew that they were of different persuasions.
But when told that the other person shared their religion they were markedly more trusting and generous with the money.

"Team of behavior experts," more likely grad students. And how did Nottingham University Business School find a large group of Malaysian people?

Reporting on studies, psychological or otherwise, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Studies like this generally need to be taken with their own grain of salt. All in all, I doubt it's reflective of reality.


So we should all keep killing each other in the name of an antiquated form of government that has no basis in reality and was simply made up to explain shiat we haven't figured out yet?

Pretty barbaric if you ask me.
 
2013-01-22 11:57:09 AM

Rapmaster2000: Not according to the footage I've seen.


You knew they were religious because they kept saying, "Oh God, Oh god, oh god," right?

dragonchild: All humans have the inherent capacity for empathy and cruelty. What makes humans unique is that we use our developed brains to treat empathy like it's a bad thing, and conversely justify cruelty to trigger responses typically evolved for emotional reward


That's brilliant. No, no, I'm serious--that fills in some holes in my brain I've been wondering about.

/I only operate from the assumption that everyone I meet has no empathy at all. And I'm not wrong as often as I'd like to be.
 
2013-01-22 11:57:26 AM

Cymbal: It's not 1995, and this is not an AOL chat room. Please don't think it's cool to post song lyrics. Never was cool in the first place.


You know what's even worse? QUOTING THE ENTIRE SONG IN YOUR STUPID REPLY.
 
2013-01-22 11:57:42 AM
Religion is a substitute for ethics, not a component of it.
 
2013-01-22 11:58:09 AM

HairBolus: A religious dictum such as thou shall not kill only applies to the in-group. Cheating or killing foreigners is fine.


[citation needed], as "thou shalt not murder" applies to everyone (in the eyes of Jews, at least). I'd agree that this is true of some rules in some faiths, but as a blanket statement, it's got more holes than Grandma's handmade afghan.

// and there are still various legal ways of killing people while still not violating the commandment
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-22 11:58:34 AM
cryinoutloud:
That's brilliant. No, no, I'm serious--that fills in some holes in my brain I've been wondering about.

/I only operate from the assumption that everyone I meet has no empathy at all. And I'm not wrong as often as I'd like to be.

You're easily right 99.5% of the time. At least.
 
2013-01-22 11:58:59 AM
Love your neighbor? No

Fleece your neighbor? Absolutely. It's what Jesus would do.
 
2013-01-22 11:59:21 AM

hstein3: And how did Nottingham University Business School find a large group of Malaysian people?


If only there was a geographical location where Malaysians congregate. Like, oh, perhaps MALAYSIA?
 
2013-01-22 11:59:24 AM

skipjack: t3knomanser: skipjack: OTOH the ridicule those that disagree with you proverb is in full force.

We could be intellectual cowards, wringing our hands and pretending that all ideas about the world are equally valid and immune to criticism because they might be quite deeply held by people and we wouldn't want to offend them. Or we could heap ridicule on ridiculous beliefs where we find them.

The latter is far more honest.

It's not more honest to ridicule those that disagree with you, it's a response by someone insecure in their own beliefs.


You can't use logic on an illogical person. Ridicule is all that is left.

You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.
 
2013-01-22 11:59:32 AM

Ennuipoet: Ask the Canaanites how religion made for good neighbors, or the Jews, the Gnostics, the Muslims in Spain, the Cathars, the Catholics in England, the Mormons in Missouri. et al how religion makes folks so great neighbors.


You mean Mormons in Illinois, not Missouri.
That all went down in Nauvoo, IL (Founding of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith getting shot, etc. etc.) and then his followers went off to Utah. The remaining non-Mormon sect (calling themselves the REORGANIZED church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints) then went down MO and became less Mormon-y (basically your average protestants), while the Utah branch remained the fun loving no-alchochol-no-caffeine-no-dancing-but-polygomy-is-ok bunch we all know and love today.
 
2013-01-22 11:59:48 AM
miscreant:
Yeah... it's a religion thread, so the fact that you could probably repeat this experiment with cities, nationalities, hobbies, or sexual fetishes and get the same result will be ignored.


Indeed. And it's surprising that the researchers did not allude to that in their paper (or maybe they did and it was left out of the article). If the researchers did ignore it then I would have to question their credibility.
 
2013-01-22 12:00:11 PM
[csb]

When I was young and my family was trying to get out of our badly designed church parking lot, my dad would laugh and point out all the "parking lot rage" that was going in. These people had literally just been inside the church, shaking hands and saying "peace be with you" and now they were ready to kill each other over who is next to leave the parking lot.

I think my father pointing out this blatant hypocrisy set me on the path to atheism. Something I will always thank him for.

[/csb]
 
2013-01-22 12:00:11 PM

umad: You guys are arguing over whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight. We're telling you that it doesn't farking matter, since they're both made up.


Iron Man
 
2013-01-22 12:00:43 PM
Religion is like sports. We always root for our team. Actually, religion is more like European "football," where matches sometimes erupt in deadly violence.

You Europeans and your deadly religions. *shakes head sadly*
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-22 12:01:15 PM

SisterMaryElephant: Love your neighbor? No

Fleece your neighbor? Absolutely. It's what Jesus would do.


Jesus wants you to be successful!
 
2013-01-22 12:01:31 PM

CheekyMonkey: hstein3: And how did Nottingham University Business School find a large group of Malaysian people?

If only there was a geographical location where Malaysians congregate. Like, oh, perhaps MALAYSIA?


IMMA FIRIN MALAYSIA
 
2013-01-22 12:02:18 PM

sxacho: Iron Man


Batman's superpower is that he basically doesn't ever lose, even after you break his spine.
 
2013-01-22 12:02:35 PM
A. Yeah, people are greedy, stupid, selfish, etc. Not news. The question is, are they following the principles of their religion at the time? If not, you're merely judging a sick man for needing a doctor.

B. While we're at it, let's forget about the hospitals, universities, charities, etc. that have been established on behalf of one religion or another.
 
2013-01-22 12:04:46 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Wadded Beef: From what I see with Christianity it's sin Monday through Saturday, Ctrl-Z on Sunday. I'll pass.

My favorite bit is those that think they can "get saved" and then keep right on sinning like nothing changed.

"Oh look at me I took a bath and now all my sins are gone! WHOOHOO! Adultery here I come!"


Actually it's way more complicated (and worse) than that. Catholics think that you can be 'saved' by going to confession and through good works, the born again think it's by just saying it, and the more Calvinist think that what you do or say has nothing to do with you being saved or not. God just..picks at random?

/been a while since I actually studied it, so I might be wrong
 
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