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(NPR)   More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good, and since we don't have a Derek Zoolander to build a center, we must change the reading standards instead of actually identifying and fixing the cause   (npr.org) divider line 416
    More: Fail, Zoolander, high schools, standards, language arts, Harper Lee, 46th state, Malcolm Gladwell  
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10763 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jan 2013 at 9:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-20 08:34:11 PM
What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.
 
2013-01-20 08:48:16 PM
They don't need to read.  They just need to be smart enough to push a button on a machine.
 
2013-01-20 08:48:41 PM

Mentat: What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.


LOL your soopid--YOLO!
 
2013-01-20 08:56:21 PM
F*ck it. They're doomed anyway.

Teach them to make meth. At least they'll learn a trade.
 
2013-01-20 09:09:31 PM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.
 
2013-01-20 09:12:53 PM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


TL; DR.  Chk out my Twitter feed!
 
2013-01-20 09:15:06 PM
Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
www.burningsettlerscabin.com
 
2013-01-20 09:21:17 PM
Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.
 
2013-01-20 09:28:05 PM
ZOMG sux too b them.
 
2013-01-20 09:28:09 PM

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.



Well, they can obviously read the f*cking owner's manual.
 
2013-01-20 09:31:04 PM

Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.


I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.
 
2013-01-20 09:36:41 PM
Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.
 
2013-01-20 09:38:04 PM
Ban guns!
 
2013-01-20 09:38:25 PM

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


These guys wrote in the days when authors were paid by the word.
 
2013-01-20 09:38:29 PM
We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall
 
2013-01-20 09:39:18 PM
I dnt lk this post. amrite? brb my bff.
 
2013-01-20 09:39:25 PM

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


Arghh beat me to it
 
2013-01-20 09:40:16 PM
So that's why people complain about reading subtitles on a movie!
 
2013-01-20 09:40:22 PM

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".
 
2013-01-20 09:40:35 PM

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


I was going to laugh at you for a shiatty troll attempt, but then I figured out that's probably the only sentence you can read or type.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:37 PM
And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:45 PM
You took God out of books!
 
2013-01-20 09:40:46 PM
More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.
 
2013-01-20 09:40:52 PM

amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall


No..if anything, magazines with MORE articles will at least help stop the slide. They need less ads too.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:06 PM

netcentric: Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.


I'm ok with this if it mans are kids can reed good.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:14 PM
I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?
 
2013-01-20 09:41:25 PM
The College Board makes money by telling Americans that their children will fail at life if they don't buy college board courses and materials. I trust them about as much as I trust Pearson and the other test makers.
 
2013-01-20 09:41:53 PM
i.qkme.me 


/oblig
 
2013-01-20 09:42:55 PM

Nuclear Monk: amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.

/there's as much evidence it will improve reading as reducing gun violence afterall

No..if anything, magazines with MORE articles will at least help stop the slide. They need less ads too.


Awesome!
i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-01-20 09:43:39 PM

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


*sigh*
 
2013-01-20 09:46:37 PM

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


I tend to think that there is some value in getting it in to kids' heads that there are things like science and math out there that have a good idea how the universe works, rather than 'magic' or 'god'. Not from the standpoint of wanting to deny them faith, but rather to help keep politicians and religious leaders in check. I fully acknowledge this has been only marginally successful.
 
2013-01-20 09:47:30 PM
I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted
 
2013-01-20 09:48:12 PM

WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*


Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.
 
2013-01-20 09:48:33 PM

WhippingBoy: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.
 
2013-01-20 09:48:52 PM
i rede jus fiyn + mah budz unnerstan mah txtz + sxtz so fukov! lol!
 
2013-01-20 09:49:36 PM
My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems
 
2013-01-20 09:49:44 PM

cyberspacedout: WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*

Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.


Of course it was intentional. That's the joke.
 
2013-01-20 09:50:22 PM

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


Well, we have had half the country continually trying to defund, overtax, and dismantle our public education system because Jebus and 'Merica. So there you go.
 
2013-01-20 09:50:22 PM
Fifty percent of school kids are sub-median. We must lower the standards.

Why doesn't this work?

Let's do it again!
 
2013-01-20 09:50:30 PM
Nuclear Monk:
I tend to think that there is some value in getting it in to kids' heads that there are things like science and math out there that have a good idea how the universe works, rather than 'magic' or 'god'. Not from the standpoint of wanting to deny them faith, but rather to help keep politicians and religious leaders in check. I fully acknowledge this has been only marginally successful.

True.  However when talking about how well a group has learned or can do something, retention and use is more of a key aspect.

By no means do I advocate not exposing, but more I'm of the mind as a society we could do more to make it worthwhile to actually know these things and maintain such knowledge somehow.  Not entirely sure HOW but I can dream eh?
 
2013-01-20 09:50:32 PM

WhippingBoy: You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I've been meaning to finish that novel.  I agree it could be better, but I have such a hard-on for dystopic novels.

Oddly enough, my Canuck wife has never heard of it.
 
2013-01-20 09:51:11 PM

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.
 
2013-01-20 09:51:30 PM

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher


Just let this nugget sink in.
 
2013-01-20 09:53:28 PM

Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.


autocorrect?
 
2013-01-20 09:54:19 PM
To get students to think deeper about a story, for example, Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, a novel with deceptively simple language, is paired with Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece that alleges it is an elitist story.

Will they also teach kids that Malcolm Gladwell is a douche bag who will say anything so he can get people talking about his latest essay?

The downside, however, is that there is only so much time in a school year, and students can't read everything. Certain compromises, like abridging plays by Shakespeare and other storied authors, have to be made.

In the audio version they talk a bit more how they only read a few chapters from "Julius Caesar." What a joke to call that education.
 
2013-01-20 09:54:34 PM
"So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

imageshack.us
 
2013-01-20 09:55:33 PM
couldn't we keep the English classes focused on the fiction classics as always and get the history classes to rely more on primary source material?
 
2013-01-20 09:56:00 PM

doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.


Just finished, relaized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.
 
2013-01-20 09:56:51 PM

RabidJade: Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.

Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.


Of course, parents who do this are labled "helicopter parents" by the school system and other parents. Our culture is so confused right now, and that is by design. If we have really smart kids then the charlatans can't stay in power in religion or politics (I mean Rick Perry is a governor FFS).

You can't sell useless crap if people have critical thinking skills or understand statisitcs.
 
2013-01-20 09:57:15 PM
Bann speeling buks!
 
2013-01-20 09:57:32 PM
Welcome to Sagan's nightmare.

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
2013-01-20 09:57:48 PM

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.


I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...
 
2013-01-20 09:58:19 PM
I s don need no reedin skils. Obama sed he wil pay us fur white mans in justis. Obamah obamah obamah.
 
2013-01-20 09:58:21 PM

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


Don't call me Shirley.
 
2013-01-20 09:59:02 PM

iaazathot: RabidJade: Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.

Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.

Of course, parents who do this are labled "helicopter parents" by the school system and other parents. Our culture is so confused right now, and that is by design. If we have really smart kids then the charlatans can't stay in power in religion or politics (I mean Rick Perry is a governor FFS).

You can't sell useless crap if people have critical thinking skills or understand statisitcs.


Without critical thinking skills, people also tend to smell conspiracy where there's none
 
2013-01-20 09:59:40 PM
No one lowers standards, but developmental rates have not changed, nor has working memory. Further, raising standards without altering the structure of school is quick to place the reform in the growing failed pile...

Babwa Wawa: Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.


Common Core is a shift in standards which helps to build later content on previous standards, reduce excessive standards, and reduce processes for knowledge in standards as well as this split between literature and informational texts; this is not a curriculum itself. CCSS is not a curriculum itself and is actually less prescriptive for curriculum than the vast majority of state standards.
 
2013-01-20 10:00:26 PM

Vodka Zombie: They don't need to read.  They just need to be smart enough to push a button on a machine.


Taco Bell's been using pictures instead of words for quite a while.

And I'm pretty sure their workforce is mostly English majors.

Excuse me while I go weep for the future of our nation.
 
2013-01-20 10:00:56 PM
identifying and fixing the cause


The cause is stupid, and stupid can't be fixed.
 
2013-01-20 10:01:04 PM

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?
 
2013-01-20 10:02:19 PM
wallpapersfor.net
 
2013-01-20 10:02:22 PM
Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth
 
2013-01-20 10:03:45 PM

red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.


It's idiomatic, biatch!
 
2013-01-20 10:03:53 PM

cyberspacedout: WhippingBoy: CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.

*sigh*

Was the grammatical error in the headline not intentionally made? I'd have done it.


I don't rite good, but what, u xpekt, I caint fit inna dam bildin
 
2013-01-20 10:04:24 PM
i.qkme.me
 
2013-01-20 10:04:47 PM
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
 
2013-01-20 10:05:45 PM

enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems


if there were more parents like you we wouldn't have subby links like this one. things will get much worse as the self-involved cell phone baby makers of today do an even worse job with their stinky diaper factories.
 
2013-01-20 10:05:59 PM

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory


I have a suggestion for some light reading reading, speaking of education.
 
2013-01-20 10:06:52 PM
Reading books is a good way to learn grammar and writing. I would not, however, recommend reading newspapers. Seriously, I have no idea when every newspaper in the U.S. decided to stop employing copy editors. I can't even get through an edition of my local newspaper, and the news links I read on Fark are equally poorly-written.
 
2013-01-20 10:07:32 PM
Can't have a first world country with a third world population.
 
2013-01-20 10:08:00 PM

The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?


No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
img689.imageshack.us
 
2013-01-20 10:08:39 PM
Funny. I watched that movie today.
 
2013-01-20 10:08:39 PM
Unionizing teachers has brought us here.
 
2013-01-20 10:11:46 PM
The grammar in that headline is making my eyes bleed.
 
2013-01-20 10:12:55 PM

fnordfocus: red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

It's idiomatic, biatch!


It's grammatically incorrect, biatch.
imageshack.us
We are not Nazis, but when we speak, you listen.
 
2013-01-20 10:15:26 PM
It should be: can't read well.
 
2013-01-20 10:15:48 PM

red5ish: The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?

No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
[img689.imageshack.us image 668x375]


I have a cousin who saw Bigfoot once. That dumbass ain't never gonna be a College President. I told him "You coulda caught bigfoot just by putting a bunch of Unisom in a hamburger". Can you imagine how rich he'd be if he caught Bigfoot? Who doesn't carry a box of Unisom with them when they go camping? What a dumbass!

Oh, Two and half men is on now.
 
2013-01-20 10:16:45 PM

amquelbettamin: We should ban high capacity magazines.


The Economist? National Geographic?
 
2013-01-20 10:17:16 PM
largedon: Welcome to Sagan's nightmare.

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
2013-01-20 10:19:00 PM

WhippingBoy: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

You think you've got it bad? In Canada, we had to read "The Handmaids Tale".


I didn't have to. Yay! The only one I remember reading for sure is To Kill a Mockingbird. I also remember covering hamlet, because they showed us the Mel Gibson movie after we read the play. The rest of whatever I took in HS english has escaped me.

/was in HS in the early 90's
//Fredericton, NB
 
2013-01-20 10:19:04 PM

Phaeon: I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.


True enough: the idea of a Christian theocracy dominating the modern Western world is merely flattering leftist paranoia at a time when, among the religions, Christianity is in retreat and Islam is expanding its influence.
 
2013-01-20 10:20:27 PM

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


Somebody hasn't seen Zoolander...
 
2013-01-20 10:20:33 PM
Read a book, you little shiats. I had to.
 
2013-01-20 10:21:09 PM
I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.
 
2013-01-20 10:21:10 PM
You want to see the problem. Look at home. Look at the asinine rhetoric on internet boards. Kids don't have discussions of real substance at home. Parents are too busy or incapable themselves. We want schools to fix society. Kids' ability to string together an argument that holds water is non-existent.

And by protecting their fragile egos we have taught them that failure is bad! You want your kid to be successful. Teach them to fail. Then teach them it's ok to fail. Teach them that after they fail they try again after having analyzed their first attempt (see first paragraph for the problem with that).
 
2013-01-20 10:22:08 PM
I did a little reading on this and what a relief it is to find that White Children are not doing any worse. Whew.

It seems that adding more minorities to our country and expecting them to perform the same as white kids is causing problems. Especially when you don't want higher education to look too white.

Here's one solution:

Florida Passes Plan For Racially-Based Academic Goals


Then there is that persistant black / white gap.

On average, black students typically score one standard deviation below white students on standardized tests-roughly the difference in performance between the average 4th grader and the average 8th grader. Historically, what has come to be known as the black-white test-score gap has emerged before children enter kindergarten and has tended to widen over time.

And now we find out that Head Start has been a waste of money!


HHS' latest Head Start Impact Study found taxpayers aren't getting a good return on this "investment." According to the congressionally-mandated report, Head Start has little to no impact on cognitive, social-emotional, health, or parenting practices of its participants. In fact, on a few measures, access to the program actually produced negative effects.
The HHS' scientifically-rigorous study tracked 5,000 children who were randomly assigned to either a group receiving Head Start services or a group that did not participate in Head Start. It followed their progression from ages three or four through the end of third grade. The third-grade evaluation is a continuation to HHS' first-grade study, which followed children through the end of first grade.

The first-grade evaluation found that any benefits the children may have accrued while in the Head


So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

This diversity thing is becoming a pain in the ass.
 
2013-01-20 10:22:09 PM
It was my understanding that there would be no child left behind.
 
2013-01-20 10:24:12 PM
There are so many easy ways to circumvent cheating- changing up books to read, making kids write papers in class, oral tests...but apparently, that would be too hard...for the schools.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:01 PM
You mean reading "Twilight" is not all the education kids need? Shocking.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:23 PM

The Southern Dandy: red5ish: The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?

No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
[img689.imageshack.us image 668x375]

I have a cousin who saw Bigfoot once. That dumbass ain't never gonna be a College President. I told him "You coulda caught bigfoot just by putting a bunch of Unisom in a hamburger". Can you imagine how rich he'd be if he caught Bigfoot? Who doesn't carry a box of Unisom with them when they go camping? What a dumbass!

Oh, Two and half men is on now.


Your cousin sounds like a dumbass an a half. You coulda been bazillionaires. There's a lotta good eatin on a bigfoot. Cook em real slow and the meat like to fall right off the bone.
 
2013-01-20 10:25:25 PM

Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.


Hardy's more fun than Dickens anyways, but apparently we don't do fun in school.
 
2013-01-20 10:26:25 PM

SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]


I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.
 
2013-01-20 10:27:09 PM
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

It's all part of the plan
 
2013-01-20 10:29:32 PM
 
2013-01-20 10:30:01 PM

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


t2.gstatic.com
 
2013-01-20 10:32:45 PM

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


How about this one?
static.fjcdn.com
 
2013-01-20 10:34:41 PM

amquelbettamin: StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!

Arghh beat me to it


You're upset you were beaten to a joke that's already been beaten to the ground? Raise your standards.
 
2013-01-20 10:34:45 PM
There's only one thing that will help: ORANGE MOCHA FRAPPUCCINO!
 
2013-01-20 10:36:54 PM

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read.


Have you considered becoming a strict, even frightening, teacher? Fear is a great motivator.
 
2013-01-20 10:39:27 PM
BTW, if you think you hate Mellville, give him one more chance and read "Typee". It is very short, and you'll know by the second chapter if you want to finish it. That book would make an awesome movie if made today, what with the nudity and cannibalism and all.


As far as the reading problem, I once worked on a public awareness program to teach new parents of any class and income level what they could do help their kids achieve better literacy. There are lots of cheap or free little things to do, one of the easiest is to just bring home a newspaper, even a free, days-old copy - and lead them thru the pictures of their choice, reading the captions out loud and discussing the story. Ads, too. Anything. The newspapers and mags can also help teach them to start paying attention to current events at a young age, so they are smart about what's going on in the world. Old magazines are good for this too. You can get the free or dirt cheap at yard sales, thrift stores, and the like. Having reading materials always present, whatever they are, is the important thing. Helping them make flash cards or signs for common household objects also gets the kids familiar with the shapes of words way before preschool. And that's how we learn to read: we learn by associating the shape of letters to sounds, and the shape of words to concepts. That's why you try to use mixed-case letters as much as you can; it makes decoding word shape easier.

Whenever we went to the grocery store, I would put my baby girl on my shoulders and have her read the price numbers out loud to me, then the names of the fruits and veggies and then other things too. We would point to the words and the actual things. Making a game out of killing time shopping made it fun for both of us. You should have seen the old lady in the produce aisle when my three-year-old points and shouts: "Daddy! The bananas are on sale for fifty-five cents a pound!" Then of course you work on numeracy, by slowly adding stuff to the bigass hanging produce scales and watching the numbers roll up.

Of course the number one tool is reading to your child every day, even if it's just from the paper, but reading them bedtime stories is pure gold for both of you. Don't be afraid you're not good enough, or doing it wrong. The kid wants your time most of all. All my kids were several grade levels ahead and able to read when they entered preschool, never mind kindergarten. I was reading Treasure Island and then Homer at age five.
 
2013-01-20 10:40:25 PM
More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good well, and since we don't have a Derek Zoolander to build a center, we must change the reading standards instead of actually identifying and fixing the cause

FTFY
 
2013-01-20 10:41:17 PM

GungFu: Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth


My wife is dyslexic. She's really good at math, and a genius when it comes to chemistry. She barely studied for her exams in school and aced them.

But when she reads, the words and letters tend to jump around. Sometimes even whole lines will get mixed up. She has to double and triple check her work at her job to make sure that she doesn't misread numbers or words; because she usually does on the first read.
 
2013-01-20 10:42:50 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Phaeon: I feel that The Handmaids Tale is useful because it gets referenced a lot on FARK, especially when the article involves the GOP.

True enough: the idea of a Christian theocracy dominating the modern Western world is merely flattering leftist paranoia at a time when, among the religions, Christianity is in retreat and Islam is expanding its influence.


1) I teach the Handmaid's Tale. It is not about a Christian or Jewish theocracy. There is no discussion of Jesus or the Rabbinate in the sociopolitical structure in that novel. In fact the only mention of Christians are Baptists and Quakers and they are rebels fighting against that totalitarian system as reported on the warnews in that novel. It is a composite dystopia that explicitly includes Karl Marx as a "prophet." 2) Christianity is not on the decline. In fact its as vibrant in the Americas (North and South) as ever and is rapidly expanding all over Africa and in the developing world. Put down the political shocksite crap and actually read some scholarly literature on recent global trends in conversion. 3) And yes Islam too is expanding--yet few predominantly Muslim areas (usually rural ones) have anything resembling an Islamic 'theocracy.' The vast majority of the Islamic world is not like Saudi Arabia or the rural parts of Pakistan.
 
2013-01-20 10:43:04 PM

Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.


Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...
 
2013-01-20 10:43:08 PM

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.


Weird.

If I'm around a bunch of books I haven't read, I will eventually pick them up and start reading them. It's completely inevitable. Back in college I think I read every novel in my friends' dorm rooms. But it's the same with everything from magazines to pamphlets. I've never sat staring at a wall in a doctor's office for more than five minutes, even if I hate their choice in magazines. Who would rather watch Trading Spaces?

\Of course now, with pocket computers, I can read what I want instead of Cosmo. Thank God.
 
2013-01-20 10:44:15 PM

jst3p: It was my understanding that there would be no child left behind.


no child will be left behind. However, if we leave them all behind, we're really leaving children behind so it's all good. At least they'll have the company of other morons.
 
2013-01-20 10:44:52 PM

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.


You'll like this.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/275/transcript

1 hour audio, transcripts available. It's about how a school got their students to read.

/sorry it's not hyper linked, fark mobile won't let me.
 
2013-01-20 10:45:18 PM

Vectron: It seems that adding more minorities to our country and expecting them to perform the same as white kids is causing problems.


Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.
 
2013-01-20 10:45:19 PM
But on a serious tip, my mother had us in a "book club" when we were kids (not sure how that worked, exactly, except we got books in the mail) and when we went to school, they had this dealio where we could buy books from some company and again, those books would be delivered to the school in a few weeks. This was the 1970s and '80s.

Don't get me wrong, we watched plenty of TV, but my mother didn't let us do nothing but watch TV. A lot of the time, we could choose to go outside and play or stay inside and entertain ourselves. Turns out, if you're bored enough and have nothing better to do than read, you'll read. I read the fark out of all kinds of books all through school (including high school). Most weren't non-fiction, but they weren't all crap, either. Sounds like a lot of kids today don't have parents who care enough about them to make them do something with their free time besides watch TV, update their Facebook page and text their friends.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:08 PM
I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:13 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...


Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:37 PM
I blame the parents. When I was a kid, I got my ass whipped bloody if I brought home a B. It worked; I went to college on an academic scholarship, where I learned the proper use of the semi-colon.
 
2013-01-20 10:46:45 PM

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


No, but we CAN blame it on video games, if that helps.
 
2013-01-20 10:48:06 PM
We've upped our standards. So, UP YOURS!
 
2013-01-20 10:49:45 PM

DrPainMD: I blame the parents. When I was a kid, I got my ass whipped bloody if I brought home a B. It worked; I went to college on an academic scholarship, where I learned the proper use of the semi-colon.


Yeah, that's what we need. Bring back child abuse.

I don't hit my kids, and my daughter is ahead of grade level in several subjects and getting As. Sorry about your crappy parents.
 
2013-01-20 10:50:33 PM
Hallelujah yes! Add more non-fiction to language arts. Kevin approves totally.
 
2013-01-20 10:51:03 PM
upswingbabynames.com

Pffft, why do the kids need to learn to read?
 
2013-01-20 10:51:04 PM

skullkrusher: couldn't we keep the English classes focused on the fiction classics as always and get the history classes to rely more on primary source material?


Came here to say that.

History classes should include reading some history: some stuff by modern historians and some nonfiction written during the times being studied.

Science classes should also include reading some good popular science literature.
 
2013-01-20 10:51:48 PM

Contribution Corsair: Similar to many sciences and mathematics we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


That's an ironic notion to express with a computer. To rescue the scientists and mathematicians from the future washroom attendants. Someone has to move society forward.
 
2013-01-20 10:52:55 PM

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted


How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.
 
2013-01-20 10:53:34 PM
I understand the problem, parents don't have time to read to their crotch fruit and so reading scores go down. Schools are trying a new curriculum, probably just as doomed as the modern math approach was in the 60s and 70s. Still if anything can get Salinger and Steinbeck out of the classroom, I am good with giving it the old college try. Those two were so depressing that I never wanted to read again. Many other authors wrote about sad and terrible things, but Salinger and Steinbeck made it seem like hope of any kind was pointless. Even decades later I don't find any value to their work.
 
2013-01-20 10:54:09 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...



Facts are racist in our Orwellian PC USofA.
 
2013-01-20 10:54:22 PM

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


And, he probably says "jealous" when he means "envious."
 
2013-01-20 10:55:37 PM

DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.


Aww damn it, I missed it in your last post. Perhaps it was more subtle or maybe it caught me off guard. But this one was over the top and you outed yourself.

Good day.
 
2013-01-20 10:56:26 PM

Mentat: What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.


It is not just reading to them though. We did that, house overflowing with books. I blame too much homework which denies the child the joy of learning and leads to burnout, by 2nd grade in our case. My son uses audio books and dragon dictation because he is such a slow reader and writer.

He has been diagnosed with convergence insuffiency which we paid a fortune to "treat." It probably would have worked had we continued. What a racket!

I wonder about the over use of media on vision but I've never researched it.
 
2013-01-20 10:56:50 PM

jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.


Well, can't they start their own business with a a few million dollars loaned from their parents? Then they can be rich too.
 
2013-01-20 10:57:11 PM
Read at home to your kids BEFORE they start school.

Problem solved.
 
2013-01-20 10:57:54 PM

TwowheelinTim: Contribution Corsair: I have a theory

I have a suggestion for some light reading reading, speaking of education.


I was using the term in the sense of the second method of usage (as in speculation) or conjecture.

As I did not state it was a Theory of X and used it more in the term of a speculation or an unproven assumption my usage was still correct.  See  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
Usage 2, 4, or 6.  You're directing more toward usage 5 I think.
 
2013-01-20 10:58:41 PM

DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.


54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?
 
2013-01-20 10:58:51 PM

limeyfellow: jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.

Well, can't they start their own business with a a few million dollars loaned from their parents? Then they can be rich too.


Or just borrow money from their parents to go to college. Stupid non-whites.
 
2013-01-20 10:59:15 PM
"The idea is that things like Lincoln's second inaugural address and Martin Luther King's letter from the Birmingham jail ... are worthy of close attention," he says. "Not just in a historical context, but also for the interweaving of thought and language."
...
"When they realized how relatively low they were, it was a real wakeup call for them," she says. "We understood at that point that we needed to start challenging the students more."
To get students to think deeper about a story, for example, Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, a novel with deceptively simple language, is paired with Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece that alleges it is an elitist story.

"So the students find that there's a purpose in the reading that may not have been as apparent before," she says.


This isn't a bad idea. I'm not a big fan of non-fiction; it doesn't have the same benefits for a person as fiction does. If they're understanding more of what they read, even if it's less -- improvement?
 
2013-01-20 11:00:25 PM

Kevin72: DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.

54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?


lh6.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-01-20 11:01:46 PM

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.

I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...


Rarely is the question asked, "is our teachers learning?"
 
2013-01-20 11:02:27 PM

Somacandra: 1) I teach the Handmaid's Tale. It is not about a Christian or Jewish theocracy.


It's about a Christian theocracy, my good man. To quote from Wikipedia (which -- however dubious a source it may be -- has never been accused of being too right- wing): "The Handmaid's Tale is set in the near future in the Republic of Gilead, a country formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America. It was founded by a racist, homophobic, Christian nativist, theocratic-organized military coup as an ideologically driven response to the pervasive ecological, physical and social degradation of the country."

Racist, sexist, homophobic... I almost hear a chant forming, don't you? "Hey hey, ho ho..."

"There is no discussion of Jesus or the Rabbinate in the sociopolitical structure in that novel."

By that standard, would you claim that a particular novel could not possibly be anti- Semitic if it contained no reference to the Pentateuch or the Talmud, even if its portrayal of Jews were offensive?

In fact the only mention of Christians are Baptists and Quakers and they are rebels fighting against that totalitarian system as reported on the warnews in that novel.

I do recall this from my reading of the book, and it is greatly to Atwood's credit that she included that reference to Christians who dared to dissent from the theocracy; but that in itself does not disprove that she -- in common with many left- of- centre thinkers in North America -- identified a theocratic dystopia in North America as being Christian in nature.
 
2013-01-20 11:02:52 PM

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.


I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.
 
2013-01-20 11:02:55 PM

meat0918: Read at home to your kids BEFORE they start school.

Problem solved.


This is the most important thing you can do for children. We also "killed our television" shortly after the second one was born and they thank us to this day. Give them time alone in the rooms to dream and play.

The one thing I can say to all parents is if you turned out all right so will your kids. A lot of it is genetic. They will grow out of most of their problems.

and whuppins. Lot and lots of whuppins!

cdn4.blogs.babble.com
 
2013-01-20 11:03:00 PM

Kevin72: DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.

54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?


Well, there's brand selection, all the different varieties (lubed, ribbed, flavored, etc.), and size. Whose alone generally take up the first grading period. When you get to putting them on is when shiat gets real.
 
2013-01-20 11:03:56 PM

doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: doyner: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: /DNRTFA
//teacher

Just let this nugget sink in.

Just finished, relaized realized TFA was talking about standards as in Common Core, and realized my comment was not relevant (though I stand by it).

Head hung, snark deserved, etc. My bad.

I'm just gonna quit right here. I wonder why the quality of education is so bad...

Rarely is the question asked, "is our teachers learning?"


I try to every day. Whether I'm successful is a whole different matter...
 
2013-01-20 11:05:08 PM
This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language. Most high school graduates are never going to read another serious novel again once they leave. They're going to read, at best, op-eds on news websites and maybe the occasional essay. They'll be hearing speeches and structuring arguments in presentations at work. They need to understand how rhetoric works, in addition to being able to pick out useful information from droll informational texts such as instruction manuals. The ones that do read the occasional novel will be reading popular garbage like 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight, things that go so far beyond the realm of intellectualism that to examine them using the same analytic methods that are used to scrutinize classic works of literature is insulting to anyone who has ever hoped to have their writing taken seriously.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question because it's not a frustrating, time-consuming biatch to do so. On top of that, you get to cover more ground, catering to the interests of your actual students instead of ancient English professors who make their living training other people to become the same as them.
 
2013-01-20 11:06:10 PM

jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.



Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between low IQ / thuggery and poverty.
You cling to your beliefs, I will cling to mine.
 
2013-01-20 11:06:36 PM

Somacandra: Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.


Since you apparently have all the statistics close at hand, could you please post the academic test scores of white students in Mississippi alongside those of their black counterparts? Thanks.
 
2013-01-20 11:07:08 PM

Scythed: This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language. Most high school graduates are never going to read another serious novel again once they leave. They're going to read, at best, op-eds on news websites and maybe the occasional essay. They'll be hearing speeches and structuring arguments in presentations at work. They need to understand how rhetoric works, in addition to being able to pick out useful information from droll informational texts such as instruction manuals. The ones that do read the occasional novel will be reading popular garbage like 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight, things that go so far beyond the realm of intellectualism that to examine them using the same analytic methods that are used to scrutinize classic works of literature is insulting to anyone who has ever hoped to have their writing taken seriously.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question becaus ...


tl;dr
you have a Cliff's Notes version of that post?
 
2013-01-20 11:09:26 PM

Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.


But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.
 
2013-01-20 11:09:30 PM

mgshamster: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.

You'll like this.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/275/transcript

1 hour audio, transcripts available. It's about how a school got their students to read.

/sorry it's not hyper linked, fark mobile won't let me.


Thanks for the link, that was a good read. I used to work in a classroom and brought my own books in from home for kids to borrow whenever they wanted. I had over 1000 books in that classroom and the kids read all the time. 

Now I work at a hybrid online/face to face school, and every classroom has computers instead of books (with the exception of mine - but I don't have room for the 1000 I used to have in class). Now I try to find as many online copies of books that I can - most of the stuff that is out of copyright is available for free online. Most of my students never read for pleasure. I can identify the ones that do with the first writing assignment. Good readers make good writers.

red5ish: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read.

Have you considered becoming a strict, even frightening, teacher? Fear is a great motivator.


My students have a healthy respect for me, but I don't think I'd classify myself as frightening. I just don't take any crap. One of the best compliments I ever got was when one student told another student "You tried to LIE to Dr. Kimothy? Are you serious?" The other kids were nodding in agreement, so they must take me pretty seriously.

They know I love them, though. That counts for a lot.
 
2013-01-20 11:11:17 PM
Excellent. The planned meritocracy proceeds apace.
 
2013-01-20 11:11:37 PM
But can they turn left?
 
2013-01-20 11:12:09 PM

Vectron: jst3p: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

Why SIR you sound just like those racists who say that gun violence is not really a problem in the US because, if you subtracted the gun homicides committed by minorities, the firearms murder rate of white Americans would be comparable to that of European countries; and although those people are technically correct they must be failing to take into account.... ah, racism and... ah... er...

Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. Neither are race issues, they are both socio-economic issues.


Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between low IQ / thuggery and poverty.
You cling to your beliefs, I will cling to mine.


Pssst... this guy is talking about you:

...Given these two facts, it seems natural to many people to conclude that the genetic factors that distinguish disadvantaged groups also cause them to score lower on IQ tests. While such an inferential leap may seem reasonable to many (particularly those lacking in education)...

Link
 
2013-01-20 11:12:11 PM
I just want it known, for the record, that I read Catcher in the Rye and it sucked. It was not in any way a life-changing or enlightening experience for me, and I felt robbed of my time once I was done with it. Perhaps that is because I am neither male nor from a wealthy family, and so did not identify with the main character at all.

That said, I am more hopeful about the inclusion of more non-fiction reading in the elementary grades, and not so concerned with high-school material. In high school, the balance tips more to non-fiction anyway, because it shows up in the science and social studies courses that can no longer be avoided or set aside for language arts and math instruction. I don't see literature disappearing from the high school scene.

From my experience (as an upper-elementary teacher), non-fiction is nearly non-existent in the primary grades because science and social studies usually get only minimal coverage, and because fiction is so much easier to teach. Kids love stories, and understand their structure; they can read them, comprehend them, and write their own. Which brings me to my next reason I approve of the new standards...

Kids currently have great difficulty WRITING non-fiction, including articles, summaries, reports, analyses, and so on, because they don't understand them. They don't know their structure, having not been exposed to them in any great way. The hardest thing I have to do as a teacher in writing is to get them to STOP TELLING ME A STORY. Sometimes you just need to communicate information. There is no setting, there are no characters, there is just data and results.
 
2013-01-20 11:13:15 PM

jst3p: Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished.


Even if that were true, there isn't at the same time a strong correlation between being impoverished and being violent... there is abundant empirical evidence to suggest that, for genetic reasons, the descendants of African populations throughout the Western world are more likely to engage in violent crime than their non- black counterparts.
 
2013-01-20 11:13:18 PM
Reminds me of Comiskey Stadium. The White Sox were having a lot of problems packing in the fans to their new stadium. So, to fix the problem they reduced the number of seats (47,098 to 40,615 seats in 2004). Now, they are filling a higher percentage of their seats!
 
2013-01-20 11:14:30 PM

jst3p: Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.

How about this one?
[static.fjcdn.com image 251x251]


[puts on soccer cleats and leaps relentlessly on your piano keys all night]
 
2013-01-20 11:14:48 PM

red5ish: fnordfocus: red5ish: "To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

It's idiomatic, biatch!

It's grammatically incorrect, biatch.
[imageshack.us image 180x180]
We are not Nazis, but when we speak, you listen.


Ugh. I hate grammer nazi's. Their the most annoying of the internet no it all's.
 
2013-01-20 11:16:23 PM
But dey allreddy noes teh deferens betweeeen write and raung spelling.
 
2013-01-20 11:17:39 PM
Kevin72:54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?

Well, that part must be working. I heard that teen pregnancy rates are declining.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/09/fewer-teens-getting-pregnant - having-abortions-study-shows/

/I know, not helping
 
2013-01-20 11:17:55 PM

Kittypie070: SpaceBison: [i.qkme.me image 540x720]

I am so motherf**king sick of that motherf**king image.

No offense, SpaceBison, nothing personal against you at all.

I just hate that thing so gods damned much, no matter why it was created.


Next time do not put your image out on the internet, then no one will use it in a stupid meme!

:-D
 
2013-01-20 11:19:50 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Somacandra: Yes, racists often conveniently mistake a complex of economic class issues for ethnic ones. Schools with predominantly poor whites are not faring any better than poor blacks. See: Mississippi.

Since you apparently have all the statistics close at hand, could you please post the academic test scores of white students in Mississippi alongside those of their black counterparts? Thanks.


65% of white 3rd graders reading a grade level.
42% for blacks

You have to factor in since No Child Left Behind began, many majority black districts have been cheating. Atlanta, Newark and Philadelphia that we know of. So that 42% figure may be inflated.
 
2013-01-20 11:21:23 PM

red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]


My high school graduated a cylinder once. Our science teacher told us about it.
 
2013-01-20 11:23:05 PM

EvilRacistNaziFascist: jst3p: Keep in mind there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished.

Even if that were true, there isn't at the same time a strong correlation between being impoverished and being violent... there is abundant empirical evidence to suggest that, for genetic reasons, the descendants of African populations throughout the Western world are more likely to engage in violent crime than their non- black counterparts.


Even if that were true it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing. Try and keep up dear, we are talking about academic achievement.
 
2013-01-20 11:23:50 PM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]

My high school graduated a cylinder once. Our science teacher told us about it.


this made me laugh. out loud.
 
2013-01-20 11:24:01 PM
Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.
 
2013-01-20 11:28:04 PM
Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?
 
2013-01-20 11:29:13 PM
 
2013-01-20 11:29:19 PM

BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!


What's the point? As these two posts prove, literacy doesn't cure abject stupidity.
 
2013-01-20 11:34:25 PM

Gurlugon: Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?


But that's racist too.

Even in the most liberal city in American a Disproportionate Representation of African American Students in Special Education
 
2013-01-20 11:35:28 PM

Gyrfalcon: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.

I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.

 
2013-01-20 11:38:28 PM
Take away a kids toys and electronics, restrict them to their room for reasonable amounts of time with access to some good books, and they will learn to like it.

Staring at the wall gets old.
 
2013-01-20 11:40:44 PM

Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.


There's this thing called the subjunctive mood. Look it up.

/And try reading a book, while you're at it.
 
2013-01-20 11:40:53 PM

Gyrfalcon: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.

I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.


This school did: Link
 
2013-01-20 11:44:24 PM

Vectron: Gurlugon: Make reasonable accommodations for the fact that at least half of kids should have a football helmet and a dribble cup, strictly academically-speaking?

But that's racist too.

Even in the most liberal city in American a Disproportionate Representation of African American Students in Special Education


Maybe if they didn't say "yo mayne, readin' is fo' whitie" and instead followed their somewhat paler brethren in saying "the only three letters I need'a learn is U, S, and A," they wouldn't be stuck in the back of the short bus.
 
2013-01-20 11:44:57 PM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


The standard is 70/30 across the curriculum. Hopefully the written information presented in every course that is not a language course is overwhelmingly factual, which allows language courses to emphasize fiction. Within language courses, grammar and tips on composition should also be factual, leaving even more room for great and/or relevant literature.
 
2013-01-20 11:52:13 PM

Kimothy: They know I love them, though. That counts for a lot.


Here is a Link for you. Good luck and best wishes.
 
2013-01-20 11:53:22 PM

JasonOfOrillia: Lsherm: Babwa Wawa: but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.

I am all for whatever reduces studying Melville or Dickens.  I read a quite a bit, but for the life of me I can't read anything by those two without feeling like I'm doing work.

These guys wrote in the days when authors were paid by the word.


The worst offender by far was William Make-shiat up as you go along-peace Thackery. Vanity Fair was obnoxiously overwritten.
 
2013-01-21 12:06:31 AM
FTA: "I worry that we are going to find that teachers will teach shorter works, they will spend less time on those classics and they'll tend to orient them more toward topical, relevant concerns,"

That's supposed to be a worry? That students will end up reading things which are topical or relevant? You can't motivate kids to read by assigning Chaucer. You can't even do it anymore by assigning  Catcher in the Rye. No sixteen year old is going to care about Tom Sawyer whitewashing fences or about Holden Caulfiled whining about phonies at his goddamn prep school. If the purpose is to teach them to read, then use material that they might actually be interested in. If the purpose is to motivate an interest in the classics, then show why the classics matter. Assign fiction or non-fiction which they actually might have heard of and can be related to themes in classic literature, or which reference it or was influenced by it. Christ, move from Harry Potter to Tolkien to Beowulf. Virtually no high school student is going to be interested in Dostoevsky without some explanation as to why they ought to care.

He wonders if students who are curious aboutThe Sound and the Fury orThe Brothers Karamazov, for instance, would have a place in this new standard.

*Facepalm*
 
2013-01-21 12:07:31 AM

Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.


This is the correct usage of the word. Link
 
2013-01-21 12:10:51 AM
Wow, is Stormfront down or something? When did this thread turn into a dumping ground of racism?
 
2013-01-21 12:11:01 AM

James F. Campbell: Karma Curmudgeon: Summer Glau's Love Slave:
This thread makes me wish I were illiterate.
I were illiterate.
I were.

There's this thing called the subjunctive mood. Look it up.

/And try reading a book, while you're at it.


Oooooo, failed and burned!
 
2013-01-21 12:16:06 AM

jso2897: BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.

StoPPeRmobile: Ban guns!

What's the point? As these two posts prove, literacy doesn't cure abject stupidity.


But it does cure object stupidity.

I started reading on my phone and now it's a smart phone.
 
2013-01-21 12:18:53 AM
1. Karma Curmudgeon got pwned. I give a twenty percent chance he claims rotsky.

2. For many students high school is too late to get excited about books. If one gets far enough behind then reading becomes a chore and that detracts from any reward of the literature. There really ought to be more remedial classes in high school to be honest. It isn't optimal to graduate kids with a lesser grasp of a subject but making a kid get a C with extra credit bullshiat is doing them no favors.

3. One would think parents would have enough interest in their children's success to keep them up to speed or ahead when it comes to reading.
 
2013-01-21 12:20:24 AM
The fark filter is gonna love this:

Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!
Read a book! Read a book! Read a muh'farkin book!

R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!
R-E-A-D, A, B-O-OAHH-KAYYYYYYYY~!

Not a sports page (what) not a magazine (who)
But a book nubian, a farkin book nubian (YEAHHH~!)
Not a sports page (what) not a magazine (who)
But a book nubian, a farkin book nubian (YEAHHH~!)
Not a sports page, not a magazine
But a book nubian, check this out

More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmania.com/read_a_book_lyrics_bomani_dmite_armah.html
All about Bomani Dmite+Armah: http://www.musictory.com/music/Bomani+Dmite+Armah
 
2013-01-21 12:20:44 AM
lowered standards? I see "Financial Expediency"

*sigh*
 
2013-01-21 12:24:58 AM

enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems


I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:08 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Wow, is Stormfront down or something? When did this thread turn into a dumping ground of racism?


Yeah I was wondering if Sunday night is "don't be ashamed to be a racist!" night now.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:09 AM
The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.
 
2013-01-21 12:28:16 AM
i1125.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-21 12:29:12 AM

notatrollorami: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.


What level of books do you read to them? I know that by the 4th grade my friends and I were reading adult Fiction. Crichton, King, Hemingway, Steinbeck, etc. Granted, (at least I) totally missed the point of some of the Hemingway and Steinbeck until I went back and re-read much later, but these don't strike me as the sort of stuff that you could expect to finish in a reasonable amount of time. At that age don't they benefit more by reading the books themselves?
 
2013-01-21 12:29:14 AM

Smackledorfer: 1. Karma Curmudgeon got pwned. I give a twenty percent chance he claims rotsky.


2:1 he doesn't post again and pretends he isn't reading this thread anymore.
 
2013-01-21 12:29:28 AM

Scythed: This is actually a wonderful, wonderful decision. Things like Shakespeare and Paradise Lost are invaluable contributions to the literary canon and indispensable to those who want a full understanding of the evolution of the English language.

They're also farking worthless and possibly even detrimental to anyone who could not care less about the literary canon or English language.


I know, right? It's not as though important works of literature ever explored complex questions about morality or the human experience that are important for all people, regardless of their day job, right?

Oh wait:

Macbeth makes us wonder about free will and the nature of guilt.

Julius Caesar forces us to ponder choosing between friendship and justice.

Much Ado About Nothing and The Taming of the Shrew aptly demonstrate any number of ways that women get unfairly treated while exploring complicated mechanics of love, courtship, and gendered expectations.

Heck, Henry V (IV,i,1975) even raises and debates the question of the Nuremberg defense a couple of centuries before the Nazis even existed:

"For we know enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes the crime of it out of us. " [There's a good bit more to the scene where this claim is debated].

And Hamlet... well, that's a whole *thing* in itself.

And that's just a sampling of Shakespeare. There's also Twain, Dickens, Homer, Virgil, Dante, Buck, etc. There is, in short, the entire gorram history of mankind's attempts to figure out what exactly it means to be human, with all of the weird and confusing variations and intricacies involved.

So why do we teach them these things? Why do we hand kids, who no longer have the time or attention span to watch a farking movie that's longer than three hours, books written in dusty 18th century English with 300 pages and a plot they can't connect with? They can't be assessed to read it and we know it, that's why we end up teaching and testing them about the plot instead of having them learn and discuss how an author achieves his desired goal through effective use of language, something that is an actual critical thinking skill that they'll be using in real life.

Meanwhile, if you hand them a different two page essay from the New York Times or some magazine every couple days and ask them what words the author uses to get his point across, the students will actually read them and even try to answer your question because it's not a frustrating, time-consuming biatch to do so. On top of that, you get to cover more ground, catering to the interests of your actual students instead of ancient English professors who make their living training other people to become the same as them.


So your solution to "kids have a short attention span" is "let's accommodate that lazy habit" instead of "let's teach them how to focus?" If that were our entire approach to the education of children, nobody would ever learn to read/write/do math in the first place, because when they start it's difficult, and god forbid we should teach our children to work hard to develop a skill, right?

And I call BS on your claim of "they can't connect" to the plots of this stuff... for a number of reasons. That's just the excuse lazy teens use when they don't want to have to do the hard work of sitting down with the same task for more than 30 minutes... particularly if that task forces them to use "muscles" that they don't exercise often.

And why should we care what interests them? I wasn't especially interested in learning how to make a budget, but it turned out to be pretty important, didn't it? The US Tax Code is anything but a "2-page NY Times article" and a GREAT deal more complex. If you're suggesting that teens can't be bothered to read anything longer than 1000 words, we're all screwed once these kids start running the place.

I'm arguing on the internet, so I'm going to stop myself here and leave you with a gem from Flannery O'Connor (a well-regarded author herself) on the subject of teaching literature:

"In other ages the attention of children was held by Homer and Virgil, among others, but by the reverse evolutionary process, that is no longer possible; our children are too stupid now to enter the past imaginatively. No one asks the student if algebra pleases him or if he finds it satisfactory that some French verbs are irregular, but if he prefers Hersey to Hawthorne, his taste must prevail... And if the student finds that this is not to his taste? Well, that is regrettable. Most regrettable. His taste should not be consulted; it is being formed. "
 
2013-01-21 12:31:26 AM

notatrollorami: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.


Is it OK if we grammar nazi you for using a comma when a period or semi-colon should have been used?
 
2013-01-21 12:31:38 AM
They should be reading non-fiction as well as fiction. All high school students should read some of Gore Vidal's essays, for example.
 
2013-01-21 12:31:48 AM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article? Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article. Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.


Wait, you mean we're supposed to read the article about reading?
 
2013-01-21 12:35:21 AM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: [i1125.photobucket.com image 251x251]


I hope no one gets a seizure looking at that.
 
2013-01-21 12:40:18 AM

The One True TheDavid: Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.

But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.


Except the other way around.
 
2013-01-21 12:43:39 AM

CruiserTwelve: More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good

They apparently don't write well either.


My first thoughts,also.
 
2013-01-21 12:44:10 AM
No, miss teacher! Our child is not illiterate. We were married three months before he was born.
 
2013-01-21 12:45:40 AM

Bucky Katt: They should be reading non-fiction as well as fiction. All high school students should read some of Gore Vidal's essays, for example.


A couple of years ago my coworker's high school-aged daughter told me she thought Gore Vidal was a hair stylist.
 
2013-01-21 12:47:11 AM

gregscott: The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.


I would believe in homeschooling as the solution if I believed even 1% of the population of parents is qualified and relied upon to teach up to high school level in ALL of the following subjects:

* Grammar & Spelling
* Literature
* US History
* World History
* Biology
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Trigonometry
* Calculus

In other words, there's no way in hell homeschooling in general* can replace education by professional educators.

I think the only thing homeschooling can be shown to be effective in teaching is that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.

*I'm sure YOUR parents are the 1% that can effectively teach in all of the above subjects.
 
2013-01-21 12:49:44 AM

lamecomedian: Flannery O'Connor


I was with you until you mentioned her. She's not interested in what it means to be human; she's interested in brow-beating anyone who isn't Catholic.
 
2013-01-21 12:51:40 AM

netcentric: Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.


The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.

Link

D.C. public schools are spending more per student than any state in the nation, writing an $18,667 check for each child, to oust New York as the top spender, yet rank at the bottom in results.

Link
 
2013-01-21 12:55:03 AM
So pay teachers more? That will surely improve the kids education.
Maybe go on strike until you get a 20% increase (in salary, not percentage of kids who can read better) over 4 years.
 
2013-01-21 12:56:52 AM
We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up
 
2013-01-21 12:57:36 AM
Access to books, access to books, and access to books again - books they choose themselves and own so that they can return to them and practice. Books they enjoy reading - Pokemon, Captain Underpants, the classics, comics, whatever.

I have spent a good, good chunk of my professional life on this, working with thousands of teachers and probably 30K+ children in very high poverty neighborhoods. They have no books in their homes and their schools lack the resources to give them significant access. When they have the chance to choose their own books and build their own home libraries along with the rest of their classmates, they discover they love reading. Library circulation goes up. Scores go up. They invent the concept of book clubs with their classmates. They read more, get better at it, develop their curiosities and figure out for themselves why education is meaningful. The literacy culture in homes and schools changes. It is incredible to watch.

It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Hi, fark - this is one of my few soapboxes. If anyone's truly interested, send me a line - I've got research out the wazoo.
 
2013-01-21 12:58:02 AM

RCon: The One True TheDavid: Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.

But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.

Except the other way around.


Please...Foucault was a one trick pony who built a career around bastardizing Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals.

Nietzsche is regarded as obscure only because he's read as a philosopher...despite the fact that he wrote his stuff (quite intentionally) as one gigantic middle finger to the institution of philosophy.
 
2013-01-21 12:59:59 AM

James F. Campbell: lamecomedian: Flannery O'Connor

I was with you until you mentioned her. She's not interested in what it means to be human; she's interested in brow-beating anyone who isn't Catholic.


You really need to examine your own bigotry if you expect to grow as a person.
 
2013-01-21 01:01:22 AM

Giltric: So pay teachers more? That will surely improve the kids education.
Maybe go on strike until you get a 20% increase (in salary, not percentage of kids who can read better) over 4 years.


There's always one who feels the need to take cheap shots at the teachers. You seem to be one of the aforementioned lacking in comprehension skills.

If you think that teachers being paid a decent salary with benefits is somehow a bad thing, then perhaps you should excuse yourself from the conversation and find something more productive to do.

You could read one of those book things they've been talking about.
 
2013-01-21 01:02:30 AM

hasty ambush: The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.


Maybe if we better allocated the money:

Education leaders say they want to devote greater funding to low-income students, but within most school districts per-pupil spending is higher at schools with more-advantaged students. Education leaders say they want to focus resources on the core subjects of math, reading, history, and science, but per-pupil spending tends to be much higher for electives, extracurricular activities, and sports. Education leaders say they want to emphasize remedial instruction to help lagging students catch up, but in most school districts per-pupil spending is significantly greater for Advanced Placement (AP) and gifted classes than for remedial ones.
 
2013-01-21 01:05:26 AM
Common Core's annoying as Hell. The only reason we need Common Core is that people dumbed down their classes and lessons, largely because administrators and parents pressured them to do so to improve graduation rates, instead of holding firmly to standards and keeping rigor and letting some of these morons repeat a grade or 4.

How do I know? As a teacher, I have been driven out of one school and had several "serious" discussions with administrators over the low passing rate I have.

What I do know is that the students I have who do the work and pass my class have no problem passing the next year either. I don't care if only a few kids pass, as long as those that pass learn something.

I'm more about skills than content, because with skills, you can teach yourself any content.
 
2013-01-21 01:05:44 AM

gordian: Access to books, access to books, and access to books again - books they choose themselves and own so that they can return to them and practice. Books they enjoy reading - Pokemon, Captain Underpants, the classics, comics, whatever.

I have spent a good, good chunk of my professional life on this, working with thousands of teachers and probably 30K+ children in very high poverty neighborhoods. They have no books in their homes and their schools lack the resources to give them significant access. When they have the chance to choose their own books and build their own home libraries along with the rest of their classmates, they discover they love reading. Library circulation goes up. Scores go up. They invent the concept of book clubs with their classmates. They read more, get better at it, develop their curiosities and figure out for themselves why education is meaningful. The literacy culture in homes and schools changes. It is incredible to watch.

It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Hi, fark - this is one of my few soapboxes. If anyone's truly interested, send me a line - I've got research out the wazoo.


I could adjust my foil hat and speculate that NCLB is, in the long term, a grand social engineering experiment; a social experiment designed to dumb-down and eventually dismantle public education.

That sounds a little crazy, and it might just be a reaction to falling standards and not the other way around.

Maybe I should go back to bed.
 
2013-01-21 01:07:20 AM

gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.


Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.
 
2013-01-21 01:09:27 AM

NewportBarGuy: BravadoGT: Surely there must be a way we can blame this on guns.


Well, they can obviously read the f*cking owner's manual.


Why would you need an owner's manual for SPORTS?
 
2013-01-21 01:09:45 AM

Contribution Corsair: I have a theory on this and English class in general for example.

We don't really have a NEED for anything but the basics in our society as a whole.  There is not really any solid reason to have above a very basic ability to read, write, or even speak for that matter, as most of the common thoughts and ideas we need to communicate within our society have been distilled down to be recognizable or intelligible to the lowest common denominator.

If people are not challenged to develop and learn and maintain a higher level, why will they retain or teach their own children similar skills or even try to reinforce learning a higher level than they use day to day?  Yes, we try to teach it, but what are we doing to make it so that the people USE that knowledge or retain it.  Similar to many sciences and mathematics  we teach it but many people don't LEARN it because...why remember or retain that knowledge if it is never used except by a small fraction of them?


Link

Neil deGrasse Tyson answers that about math. The title is ironic, but it applies to language as well.
 
2013-01-21 01:10:02 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.


I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.
 
2013-01-21 01:10:43 AM
Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.
 
2013-01-21 01:11:59 AM
Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?
 
2013-01-21 01:13:47 AM
Man, NCLB is the closest I ever get to being a conspiracy theorist. Not for social engineering, but if you look at where all the fancy curricula, text books, and test mechanisms come from...you see who's making bucket loads of cash, and who their high-level political and personal connections were in the previous administration...yeah.

I honestly don't think NCLB was malicious, but it's certainly a case of a few companies going 'I have a hammer - hey look at all these little nails in classrooms across the nation I can hit! And for every one - MOOLAH! And so the snowball began to roll.

It makes me sad more than anything. And pissed. Whatever, I'm fighting the good fight and thousands of poor kids get books from it. We'e working on having a larger voice in the conversation.
 
2013-01-21 01:17:56 AM

Amos Quito: We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up


Blow it out your ass.

A) We all want more money (unless you're Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, and even they still have profitable stakes in their respective companies.)

B) Ask any teacher who isn't a complete moron (they're out there... I've worked with them) and they'll tell you it's not that paying teachers more money will lead to better test scores. If more money needs to spent in classrooms, teachers want it spent on supplies, books and other resources. The main arguments for paying teachers more is 1 - to retain the higher-quality teachers by remaining competitive with the suburbs, and 2 - as possessors of Masters Degrees, you need to pay enough to keep qualified people from going where the grass is greener.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:33 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.


Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:38 AM

lamecomedian: So your solution to "kids have a short attention span" is "let's accommodate that lazy habit" instead of "let's teach them how to focus?" If that were our entire approach to the education of children, nobody would ever learn to read/write/do math in the first place, because when they start it's difficult, and god forbid we should teach our children to work hard to develop a skill, right?


The point, I think, is that it doesn't have to be difficult. There are other things that students can read which explore the themes you mentioned without immediately turning them off reading. It's possible to interest students instead of pissing them off.

And I call BS on your claim of "they can't connect" to the plots of this stuff... for a number of reasons. That's just the excuse lazy teens use when they don't want to have to do the hard work of sitting down with the same task for more than 30 minutes... particularly if that task forces them to use "muscles" that they don't exercise often.

Right, and some high schooler somewhere just read the words:

'Tis just:
And it is very much lamented, Brutus,
That you have no such mirrors as will turn
Your hidden worthiness into your eye,
That you might see your shadow. I have heard,
Where many of the best respect in Rome,
Except immortal Caesar, speaking of Brutus
And groaning underneath this age's yoke,
Have wish'd that noble Brutus had his eyes.


...and threw the book across the room.

I can't imagine the utter negligence and cognitive dissonance that must be required to force semi-literate teenagers to read 400 year-old plays while simultaneously b*tching about the fact that they don't like to read. Assign something else. Something that might make them want to read more. Then suggest that what they like to read exists in the first place because of Shakespeare.
 
2013-01-21 01:18:48 AM

pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.


From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
2013-01-21 01:20:14 AM

Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?


My parents had every Time-Life set from 1964 to 1988, including the Vietnam series.  When they moved to their retirement house in 2001, they gave all of them to the local library without asking us kids if we wanted any of them.

We were devastated.
 
2013-01-21 01:21:47 AM

Yugoboy: I'm more about skills than content, because with skills, you can teach yourself any content.


Yep - first thing you have to do is get them interested in turning pages. As soon as they are, one book leads to the next and you go from 'See Spot Run' to 'Sharks are Freakin' Cool Lookit All These Awesome Facts' to cell biology or Anna Karenina or whatnot.
 
2013-01-21 01:21:56 AM

Amos Quito: Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.


Yeah, you would think.

The school my kids go to uses a system where the kids are grouped according to ability. The short description is that there are 5 levels: well below grade level, below grade level, grade level, above grade level, well above grade level. The kids are placed per subject. When it is "math" time or "reading" time or "whatever" time the kids are divided and the teaches are given a group of students who are no more than 2 hops from their level for that subject. This means a teacher is only teaching "well below to at" or "at to well above" or maybe "below to above" but the kids get instruction that is pretty close to their ability and the "fastest" kids don't have to wait for the "slowest" in the entire class.
 
2013-01-21 01:22:15 AM

Bumblefark: pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.

From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.


We're f*cked? I think we've already learned that.
 
2013-01-21 01:23:40 AM

stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush: The U.S. spends more than any other nation on education.
Each year, the United States shells out billions of dollars on education. In 2010, the total annual spending on education was more than $809 billion dollars. That's more than any other industrialized nation, and more than the spending of France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, the U. K., Canada, and Australia combined. The difference is substantial when you look at annual spending per child as well. In the U.S., the average student costs the government about $7,743. The next highest nation is the United Kingdom, with $5,834 per student, a difference of almost $2,000 a year per student. So what do top performing nations like Finland and South Korea spend? Just $5,653 and $3,759 per student, respectively.

Maybe if we better allocated the money:

Education leaders say they want to devote greater funding to low-income students, but within most school districts per-pupil spending is higher at schools with more-advantaged students. Education leaders say they want to focus resources on the core subjects of math, reading, history, and science, but per-pupil spending tends to be much higher for electives, extracurricular activities, and sports. Education leaders say they want to emphasize remedial instruction to help lagging students catch up, but in most school districts per-pupil spending is significantly greater for Advanced Placement (AP) and gifted classes than for remedial ones.


D.C. public schools (Mostly low income) are spending more per student than any state in the nation, writing an $18,667 check for each child, to oust New York as the top spender, yet rank at the bottom in results.

Link

Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, but could also be summer school programs, and are provided by nonprofit, for-profit or other state-approved companies.

But across the nation - and throughout Colorado - most of the poorest students in low-performing schools aren't benefiting.

At Thornton Middle School, for example, 556 students were eligible for free tutoring last year, but just two took part. And at Kepner Middle School in Denver, just 28 students out of 1,046 took advantage of supplemental services provided under the law.

An August study by the federal Government Accountability Office found that just 19 percent of eligible students nationwide participated during the 2004-05 school year.
-



You cannot force them to learn.
 
2013-01-21 01:24:12 AM

Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.


The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.
 
2013-01-21 01:26:14 AM

hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.


Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.
 
2013-01-21 01:26:47 AM
The thing about Common Core, NCLB, and any other reform program that pays attention ONLY to what's happening inside the school building is that the reform is destined to fail - it WON'T succeed.

The biggest problems with the worst schools aren't the teachers, the problems are rooted in dangerous neighborhoods, poor parenting skills (as a result of poor parenting skills for generations back), poverty and a lack of jobs available to those who won't or can't get a higher education. Why should students get a diploma if they're only qualified to fry burgers and mop floors?

Reforms must be holistic and tailored to fit specific environments, or they Will. Not. Work. Won't. Can't.
 
2013-01-21 01:31:09 AM

gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods


It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.
 
2013-01-21 01:34:29 AM

hasty ambush: stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush:
Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, b ...


In my city, a significant number of the Title I tutoring companies had ties to members of the school board. They were run as profit centers and had zero demonstrable impact on student scores, but significant impact on company owners' ability to buy Cadillacs.

And, your information is correct... free tutoring is very often not taken advantage of. The problem is it takes time. Time those kids would be better off using babysitting younger siblings while mom and/or dad work their second job. Time which puts them outside the normal school transportation options, which makes getting home a real problem. And as far as the kids are concerned, it's time away from XBox and Judge Judy.
 
2013-01-21 01:36:38 AM

StrandedInAZ: Reading books is a good way to learn grammar and writing. I would not, however, recommend reading newspapers. Seriously, I have no idea when every newspaper in the U.S. decided to stop employing copy editors. I can't even get through an edition of my local newspaper, and the news links I read on Fark are equally poorly-written.


We used to get extra credit in HS for every mistake we found.

Vectron: So to be honest, I don't think there is an education problem for white kids. The national numbers goes down as their percentage of the population goes down.

This diversity thing is becoming a pain in the ass.


It's not diversity of ethnicity - it's diversity of household income. Poverty, my friend. That's the kicker.
 
2013-01-21 01:37:34 AM

hasty ambush: gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods

It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.


Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.

gordian, your bigotry's showing...
 
2013-01-21 01:40:43 AM
Great...Now kids who enjoy reading will be farked with even more.
 
2013-01-21 01:40:55 AM

hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.


Reading that (very interesting) article, it seems that there are various good reasons why those disadvantaged students are not taking part in the programs, mostly boiling down to either their parents not understanding what's available and their family situation not allowing for it (the kid has to babysit other kids, cook dinner, or work). Affluent families have nannies that take care of all that stuff.

It's not enough to say "Hey, we're offering these programs" when they are, in reality, barely accessible to the people most in need of them.
 
2013-01-21 01:41:02 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.


I find it startling that someone could get into a chem doctoral program and be incompetent in reading, writing and public speaking. They've spent at least 8 years writing structured essays, 4 of them at the college level. It's not a hard skill to learn, thesis, supporting paragraph, use quotes and evidence as support and write commentary around the quotes to demonstrate how they tie into the thesis. Then again it's probably the same problem as with the math and sciences they were able to work the material to pass the tests (and probably do well) but never bothered to learn the material. I always believed that if I understood the material well enough I should be able to demonstrate so on a test, no matter what the test threw at me. I sacrificed the time I could have been going through a dozen old finals re-reading the chapters and doing HW problems instead.

I suppose the problem is getting the students to change how they view the classes and what their goals are. It's also possible that even from early HS they have been taught to work the tests and not to learn the material through SAT prep courses and AP tests. In fact, it's possible they never really learned how to learn material and use that knowledge as opposed to learning how to pass a test. When I got to college I discovered that I didn't know how to study, as I had never been in a position where I had to in any significant way. I can totally see how if I had been taught the bad habits of only trying to pass tests from very early on, I wouldn't know any better and I would never focus on learning the material.

\It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(
 
2013-01-21 01:41:09 AM
when half the voting populace thinks scientific studies are nothing more than a conspiracy to get money, colleges are liberal breeding grounds, and a mainstream candidate for president thinks it's being a snob to say you want all kids to go to college, what do you expect to happen?

These people aren't going home and reading to their kids. they're telling them that intelligence is over rated and only "common sense" matters. They're watching shows on the History channel about ancient aliens and bigfoot and thinking they're learning something from it.
 
2013-01-21 01:41:11 AM

gordian: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.


Well you wouldn't want them to have to "act white" would you. Let them embrace their culture and enjoy their career as welfare recipients which liberals tell them they are entitled. After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.
 
2013-01-21 01:44:12 AM

pxlboy: Bumblefark: pxlboy: Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: It is a game changer, and screw NCLB & the ridiculous depth of standardized testing that now goes on. I'm all for accountability and I don't think anyone was ever harmed by Iowa Basic Skills and such - but you're grinding teachers and their students into the ground with this crap, and one big part of the fix is readily available and incredibly cheap. Books. That they choose. Let them free read, and good things will follow.

Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

\Like I said, loose comparison.

I've heard that education in India is like that. That is, when you value rote memorization over critical thinking and true mastery of the material, you get people who are merely regurgitating rather than creating.

From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

We're f*cked? I think we've already learned that.


I don't think so. I see that (at least from an engineering standpoint) we are still leading everyone else in creating new things and developing new technologies. India may be producing engineers who can do what they are told, and code competently, but not engineers who could develop a project. I think we are better at development, implementation, execution and testing; the whole project cycle. We aren't stuck only being able to follow directions given to us.
 
2013-01-21 01:44:53 AM

hasty ambush: It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.


ESL is a significant part of it, true, but not as much as you think. For some states it might be the kids speaking Español, but certainly not everywhere, and certainly not solely due to illegal immigrants. I counted something like two dozen Asian and Polynesian first-languages being spoken in HI classrooms where my organization has an active branch. Multiply that by however many times you want along the Pacific Coast (especially CA), and then kids speaking African and Eastern European languages sprinkled everywhere.

Look at any place where a school has 70%+ free/reduced lunch eligibility, rural and urban. Dozens of schools are like that in big cities - poverty, at core, is where those numbers are coming from.
 
2013-01-21 01:46:23 AM

Yugoboy: gordian, your bigotry's showing...


Did you think I was hasty ambush? If not, where did you get that?
 
2013-01-21 01:47:07 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.

I find it startling that someone could get into a chem doctoral program and be incompetent in reading, writing and public speaking. They've spent at least 8 years writing structured essays, 4 of them at the college level. It's not a hard skill to learn, thesis, supporting paragraph, use quotes and evidence as support and write commentary around the quotes to demonstrate how they tie into the thesis. Then again it's probably the same problem ...


Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.
 
2013-01-21 01:47:35 AM

Yugoboy: Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.


And the kicker: Those disadvantaged kids are not going to the same schools as those rich kids from the suburbs. The rich draw the district border lines to make sure that their schools only pull other similar kids from their affluent neighborhoods and that those other schools pull disadvantaged kids from poor neighborhoods.

No matter how much I value education and will try to pass on that value to my kid, the fact that I'm not wealthy means she will be going to a school overrun by gangs, composed 95% of english learners, and teachers who aren't qualified enough to hop over to a more affluent district.
 
2013-01-21 01:48:04 AM

log_jammin: when half the voting populace thinks scientific studies are nothing more than a conspiracy to get money, colleges are liberal breeding grounds, and a mainstream candidate for president thinks it's being a snob to say you want all kids to go to college, what do you expect to happen?

These people aren't going home and reading to their kids. they're telling them that intelligence is over rated and only "common sense" matters. They're watching shows on the History channel about ancient aliens and bigfoot and thinking they're learning something from it.


And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.
 
2013-01-21 01:49:29 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: \I find it startling...It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(


It's not so much reading comprehension and those hard skills, more expressing yourself eloquently, speaking extemporaneously, being able to explain your position without sounding like a robot or freezing up during orals or something.

Bummer about the crash! Hope sleep helps tonight.
 
2013-01-21 01:49:32 AM

Yugoboy: hasty ambush: gordian: The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods

It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.

Or by kids whose parents have no reading material in their homes, or kids who aren't getting any sleep because of the gunfire in the neighborhood, or the drunken parent beating the snot out of them or the fact that they arrived at school with a vocabulary 1/4 as rich and full as kids from the suburbs.

gordian, your bigotry's showing...


I am willing to bet most of those homes without reading material have booze, DVD players and xboxes. Plus my point still holds true about ESL students from South of the border being the ones driving down scores in many districts. If stating a fact makes me a bigot so be it.
 
2013-01-21 01:50:14 AM

Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.


you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.
 
2013-01-21 01:50:27 AM

hasty ambush: gordian: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Especially if they've never had reason in their daily lives to believe that education is interesting and meaningful.

Well you wouldn't want them to have to "act white" would you. Let them embrace their culture and enjoy their career as welfare recipients which liberals tell them they are entitled. After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.


Oooh. I get it. Carry on with your bad self.
 
2013-01-21 01:51:01 AM

gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.


Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.
 
2013-01-21 01:52:01 AM

gordian: hasty ambush: It is not as if the scores are really being driven down by all those ESL kids from south of the border.

ESL is a significant part of it, true, but not as much as you think. For some states it might be the kids speaking Español, but certainly not everywhere, and certainly not solely due to illegal immigrants. I counted something like two dozen Asian and Polynesian first-languages being spoken in HI classrooms where my organization has an active branch. Multiply that by however many times you want along the Pacific Coast (especially CA), and then kids speaking African and Eastern European languages sprinkled everywhere.

Look at any place where a school has 70%+ free/reduced lunch eligibility, rural and urban. Dozens of schools are like that in big cities - poverty, at core, is where those numbers are coming from.


Funny how Asians don't seem to have as much of a problem isn't it? Must be a culutral thing.
 
2013-01-21 01:52:19 AM

hasty ambush: After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.


right. The only people who vote for democrats are mooches who don't work. keep telling yourself that.

That little story really helped you guys with the last election.
 
2013-01-21 01:53:35 AM

stiletto_the_wise: hasty ambush: You cannot force them to learn.

Reading that (very interesting) article, it seems that there are various good reasons why those disadvantaged students are not taking part in the programs, mostly boiling down to either their parents not understanding what's available and their family situation not allowing for it (the kid has to babysit other kids, cook dinner, or work). Affluent families have nannies that take care of all that stuff.

It's not enough to say "Hey, we're offering these programs" when they are, in reality, barely accessible to the people most in need of them.


You seemd to have totally ingnored the "not interested" reason for lack of participation.
 
2013-01-21 01:54:02 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.


gods and clods eh?
 
2013-01-21 01:55:54 AM

Bumblefark: Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.


Hmm. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page, because I'm all for that. Maybe the movement called 'critical thinking' doesn't do much for teaching it. I'm all for a certain amount of rote - I went through elementary school at a time when my school was trying out 'new math' of some sort, and the only reason I can easily multiply and divide is because my 4th grade teacher - alone out of ALL teachers at school, as far as I know - had us memorize our times tables apart from the curriculum. So...hurrah for wonky communication. I agree with you.
 
2013-01-21 01:56:04 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: \I find it startling...It's late, I'm tried and I'm aware how poorly I'm expressing my thoughts. =/
\\Crashed on Friday night and haven't been able to sleep more than a couple hours since. b/c my right side is all messed up. =(

It's not so much reading comprehension and those hard skills, more expressing yourself eloquently, speaking extemporaneously, being able to explain your position without sounding like a robot or freezing up during orals or something.

Bummer about the crash! Hope sleep helps tonight.


I think that all comes with having familiarity with the subject matter. Sort of like a deeper understanding of the concepts involved, enough so to be able to use them in creative ways and make spontaneous use of them. It's like they used to say, if you really want to demonstrate you have learned something, teach it to someone else. If they never learned the material in such a way as to have a deep and thorough understanding of it, as opposed to just being able to pass tests on it, they won't be comfortable talking about anything except exactly the concepts and formulas they had drilled into them. They need a level past that where they can take what they have learned and do something new with it, or apply it in novel ways to other things, and in ways that they haven't seen before. I think again it's a matter of having acquired knowledge versus getting good grades.
 
2013-01-21 01:57:59 AM

log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: And they will remain blue-collar slobs.
That doesn't mean that we won't have a white collar community anymore, it just means that only a certain percentage of kids could hope to reach those levels. And let's be honest, we don't have enough white collar jobs for all of them anyways, especially not now that our economy is shifting towards the service sector.

gods and clods eh?


I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.
 
2013-01-21 02:01:05 AM

Amos Quito: We have seen the enemy...

And it wants more money.


/That'll fix 'er up


Amos Quito: Q: When you have a group of elementary school students all holding hands as they walk through the park, how fast can they walk?

A: Only as fast as the slowest student.



What wonderful contributions to the discussion you threadshiatter.
 
2013-01-21 02:01:47 AM

log_jammin: hasty ambush: After all if they became productive taxpayers they might not be voting democrat anymore.

right. The only people who vote for democrats are mooches who don't work. keep telling yourself that.

That little story really helped you guys with the last election.


Just an example of truth costing an election. When the taxpayers find themselves outnumbered that is the result. One side loots the treasury to buy votes with "free stuff" the other offers taxpayers a chance to keep more of their own money.

"He who robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the vote of Paul"

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
 
2013-01-21 02:03:58 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.


i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers. well there is a reason. It's because the right wing in the country has decided it hates education and science.
 
2013-01-21 02:04:31 AM

Bumblefark: gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.

Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.


I was unaware "critical thinking" was a movement that meant 'not thinking'. In my experience it generally meant essay questions instead of regurgitating dates. If I wasn't thinking critically when I answered them, what was I doing?
 
2013-01-21 02:06:29 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: I think that all comes with having familiarity with the subject matter...it's a matter of having acquired knowledge versus getting good grades.


I agree with that, but the profs were actually talking about something else. Often times it was the really intelligent kids who truly knew their stuff who were selling their knowledge short through lack of being able to communicate effectively, especially on the spot. They had the content but were unable to be flexible enough with language to demonstrate the depth of their knowledge.
 
2013-01-21 02:06:31 AM

log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.

i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers. well there is a reason. It's because the right wing in the country has decided it hates education and science.


Yup, because if you educate them, they won't vote for you. So you prevent education from getting the funding it needs, so you have a populace that lacks critical thinking skills so they eventually vote in the same sort of people who proceed to start the cycle again. The GOP has a vested interest in keeping kids dumb.
 
2013-01-21 02:08:09 AM
www.global-air.com

Started in 1965, the ''Head Start'' program doesn't work, has cost taxpayers $180 billion, and should be eliminated. But, politicians think it makes them look good to poor voters, and more money should be thrown at it. (new window)
 
2013-01-21 02:08:10 AM

log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.

i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers.


I refuse to believe, and maybe I'm being blind here, that people of average intellect or even the 20% below average are too stupid to benefit from education. I also don't believe that they won't use an education in their lives simply because they may end up in a job that doesn't require much of one.

Basic logic, understanding the basics of studies referenced by the media, etc are valuable things.
 
2013-01-21 02:08:14 AM

hasty ambush: Just an example of truth costing an election. When the taxpayers find themselves outnumbered that is the result.


Like I said. keep on believing that. Keep thinking only republicans pay taxes or has a job. keep believing something that the tiniest amount of time spent thinking on the subject would show that belief to be false. keep fighting those strawmen in your head. after all, the rest of us out here in reality need a good laugh from time to time.
 
2013-01-21 02:08:33 AM
My Texas education:

M R ducks
M R Not Ducks
O S M R 2 Ducks C M Wings
L I B M R Ducks
C Toad U M R Ducks
 
2013-01-21 02:11:06 AM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


I think I love you.

/favourited
 
2013-01-21 02:11:41 AM

Smackledorfer: I refuse to believe, and maybe I'm being blind here, that people of average intellect or even the 20% below average are too stupid to benefit from education. I also don't believe that they won't use an education in their lives simply because they may end up in a job that doesn't require much of one.

Basic logic, understanding the basics of studies referenced by the media, etc are valuable things.



I agree 100%.
 
2013-01-21 02:14:20 AM

phrawgh: My Texas education:

M R ducks
M R Not Ducks
O S M R 2 Ducks C M Wings
L I B M R Ducks
C Toad U M R Ducks


pi r squared

cornbread r squared, pi r round.
 
2013-01-21 02:17:57 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: I think that all comes with having familiarity with the subject matter...it's a matter of having acquired knowledge versus getting good grades.

I agree with that, but the profs were actually talking about something else. Often times it was the really intelligent kids who truly knew their stuff who were selling their knowledge short through lack of being able to communicate effectively, especially on the spot. They had the content but were unable to be flexible enough with language to demonstrate the depth of their knowledge.


oh. Hmm, are the generally lacking in communication skills or acutely failing just in their field of expertise? I mean to ask are they socially awkward as well? Can they converse comfortably on subjects that interest them, sports, video games, movies, whatever or do they just freeze up when out of their comfort zone?
Are there campus toast masters programs? All the engineers at Cal were required to take a course on technical communication called e190. All engineers had to take it:
"Principles of technical communication: analyzing one's audience; organizing material; developing a clear, economical style; using proper formats and rhetorical strategies for formal technical reports, feasibility studies, abstracts, descriptions and instructions, proposals, letters, and memos. Practice in oral presentations to technical and nontechnical audiences. Sponsoring Department: Engineering Interdisciplinary Studies."

Fortunately I had long before learned how to bullshiat my way out of anything but I had many classmates that benefited from this class. Hell, we even went through Strunk and White. This sounds like what the kids need.
 
2013-01-21 02:18:02 AM

GungFu: Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth


Speaking as a dyslexic... it can be overcome if you care enough (read: if you're stubborn enough) to re-train yourself.

Yes, dyslexia is real. To correct for it, you only need to give a shiat about your own ability to read and write effectively,
 
2013-01-21 02:20:14 AM

Smackledorfer: log_jammin: Uchiha_Cycliste: I'm just saying that having a whole bunch of dumb kids doesn't mean we have no smart kids.

i wasn't implying it does. I'm just saying there is no reason we can't have intelligent and educated blue collar workers.

I refuse to believe, and maybe I'm being blind here, that people of average intellect or even the 20% below average are too stupid to benefit from education. I also don't believe that they won't use an education in their lives simply because they may end up in a job that doesn't require much of one.

Basic logic, understanding the basics of studies referenced by the media, etc are valuable things.


I agree with this too. What we are saying is that the system is failing these kids and that the people (one half anyways) in charge of the system benefit from that failure and hence have little incentive to change things around.
 
2013-01-21 02:20:49 AM
Home schooling is great, right up to the point where your 15 year old goes into the wrong neighborhood and some homie asks him "where you from"? - wrong answer, game over. oh no too bad so sad
 
2013-01-21 02:21:56 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.

you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.


We still teach it. Kids have to pass a written proficiency exam in order to graduate. They are expected to write five coherent paragraphs to pass.

We also require seniors to write a 5-7 page research paper.

Keep in mind, a student that gets a 60% passes. There's a lot of dumbass kids skating by with that D.
 
2013-01-21 02:22:28 AM
Only so long until someone starts outsourcing English language classes to India...
 
2013-01-21 02:23:19 AM

VIDEOWALLART: Home schooling is great, right up to the point where your 15 year old goes into the wrong neighborhood and some homie asks him "where you from"? - wrong answer, game over. oh no too bad so sad


Oh don't worry. I have no doubt that most home schooling families would ever end up in "those" neighborhoods.
 
2013-01-21 02:26:38 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.

you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.


You may have learned it, it doesn't mean everyone else did.

Also, you're only hitting about 50/50 for your long posts based on those rules.  Just for this thread.
 
2013-01-21 02:27:02 AM

Kimothy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.

you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.

We still teach it. Kids have to pass a written proficiency exam in order to graduate. They are expected to write five coherent paragraphs to pass.

We also require seniors to write a 5-7 page research paper.

Keep in mind, a student that gets a 60% passes. There's a lot of dumbass kids skating by with that D.


Good! Lsherm scared me. Also, does this differ state to state? district to district?
 
2013-01-21 02:28:39 AM

Lsherm: Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.

you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.

You may have learned it, it doesn't mean everyone else did.

Also, you're only hitting about 50/50 for your long posts based on those rules.  Just for this thread.


We aren't in a formal setting. I'm just trying to convey ideas, and doing so effectively I would think. Also, I did say I'm quite tired.
 
2013-01-21 02:30:01 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: oh. Hmm, are the generally lacking in communication skills or acutely failing just in their field of expertise? I mean to ask are they socially awkward as well? Can they converse comfortably on subjects that interest them, sports, video games, movies, whatever or do they just freeze up when out of their comfort zone?
Are there campus toast masters programs? All the engineers at Cal were required to take a course on technical communication called e190. All engineers had to take it:
"Principles of technical communication: analyzing one's audience; organizing material; developing a clear, economical style; using proper formats and rhetorical strategies for formal technical reports, feasibility studies, abstracts, descriptions and instructions, proposals, letters, and memos. Practice in oral presentations to technical and nontechnical audiences. Sponsoring Department: Engineering Interdisciplinary Studies."

Fortunately I had long before learned how to bullshiat my way out of anything but I had many classmates that benefited from this class. Hell, we even went through Strunk and White. This sounds like what the kids need.


You got it. I actually slapped myself down from making an analogy to Big Bang Theory in my previous post (and there that goes out the window...DON'T HURT ME I've only seen one or two episodes!) - it's the general lack of communication skills, social awkwardness, and intense navel-gazing into the specialty of their choice that gets them. Nifty sounding course, and Toastmasters would be smart. I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to go about it - in my absolute foolproof anecdote, the Chem Dept head saw significant improvement by having them pick up a good book occasionally and letting others' communication skills soak into their heads to loosen up their own. Research actually supports that, too.
 
2013-01-21 02:33:56 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: oh. Hmm, are the generally lacking in communication skills or acutely failing just in their field of expertise? I mean to ask are they socially awkward as well? Can they converse comfortably on subjects that interest them, sports, video games, movies, whatever or do they just freeze up when out of their comfort zone?
Are there campus toast masters programs? All the engineers at Cal were required to take a course on technical communication called e190. All engineers had to take it:
"Principles of technical communication: analyzing one's audience; organizing material; developing a clear, economical style; using proper formats and rhetorical strategies for formal technical reports, feasibility studies, abstracts, descriptions and instructions, proposals, letters, and memos. Practice in oral presentations to technical and nontechnical audiences. Sponsoring Department: Engineering Interdisciplinary Studies."

Fortunately I had long before learned how to bullshiat my way out of anything but I had many classmates that benefited from this class. Hell, we even went through Strunk and White. This sounds like what the kids need.

You got it. I actually slapped myself down from making an analogy to Big Bang Theory in my previous post (and there that goes out the window...DON'T HURT ME I've only seen one or two episodes!) - it's the general lack of communication skills, social awkwardness, and intense navel-gazing into the specialty of their choice that gets them. Nifty sounding course, and Toastmasters would be smart. I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to go about it - in my absolute foolproof anecdote, the Chem Dept head saw significant improvement by having them pick up a good book occasionally and letting others' communication skills soak into their heads to loosen up their own. Research actually supports that, too.


For what it's worth I've only seen an episode or so myself. I'm glad you guys have a crutch that seems to work. That's a hell of a lot better than just sitting there frustrated and twiddling your thumbs while venting at the quality of kids these days =P
 
2013-01-21 02:36:32 AM

jst3p: Kevin72: DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.

54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?

[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 422x512]


Perhaps, but while that may be the view of most of Faux Knews viewers, reality would tell us that the issue is instead the societal breakdown which is commonplace in the world around us. The gap which was the class war, which has yet to come, has morphed into other aspects of life. If you want to make the issue about the color of a man's skin, then please tell the ... gentleman ... I met at my other place of employment(cigar bar) that his views about the origins of MLKJ day are about as intelligent as the joke he told about having the day off vs. having the week off. Race may play some role in the marks of the students, but much more likely would be the culture in which they are raised. This would be the classic Nature vs. Nurture argument, of which I am a Nurture proponent, being a twin as well(fraternal). Take two normal humans, regardless of skin color, and give them the same upbringing, same education, same opportunities, and despite the differences between the two, they will have much the same outcome of the study and upbringing. While one may study rocks and the way they form for the rest of his life(my cousin), and the other becomes a high-powered executive, managing hundreds if not thousands of employees(cousin's wife), their upbringing was similar to the point of identicality.

/tired, sleep now
//read to as a child
///avid reader today, beyond textbooks, even
 
2013-01-21 02:40:03 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: For what it's worth I've only seen an episode or so myself. I'm glad you guys have a crutch that seems to work. That's a hell of a lot better than just sitting there frustrated and twiddling your thumbs while venting at the quality of kids these days =P


Seriously. And thankfully, I'm only on the outside looking in at that whole world. I was the token crazy 'liberal arts' chick who hung out with the physicists and chemists. Gave me a soft spot for social quirks and ADHD tics, that's for sure.
 
2013-01-21 02:40:13 AM

gordian: Bumblefark: Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.

Hmm. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page, because I'm all for that. Maybe the movement called 'critical thinking' doesn't do much for teaching it. I'm all for a certain amount of rote - I went through elementary school at a time when my school was trying out 'new math' of some sort, and the only reason I can easily multiply and divide is because my 4th grade teacher - alone out of ALL teachers at school, as far as I know - had us memorize our times tables apart from the curriculum. So...hurrah for wonky communication. I agree with you.


The one thing I encouraged of all my students, regardless the subject, was to memorize something. Anything. Milton, Shakespeare, pop song lyrics, the ingredients on the cereal box...it really didn't matter. The point was simply the exercise...learning that learning itself is something that you can get better at, once you learn how it is done.

I had much the same experience, I think. Only, at home, for me. Starting around age 7, my parents had me memorize poetry to recite every Sunday after church. Don't remember athing about my religious upbringing, but can still recite about 30 or so complete poems by heart, 25 years later....and I have no doubt that this exercise gave me the ability to absorb and analyze more information than I would have been capable of otherwise.
 
2013-01-21 02:40:30 AM
And 50 percent of Fark submitters don't submit good. I mean WELL.
 
2013-01-21 02:43:38 AM

log_jammin: VIDEOWALLART: Home schooling is great, right up to the point where your 15 year old goes into the wrong neighborhood and some homie asks him "where you from"? - wrong answer, game over. oh no too bad so sad

Oh don't worry. I have no doubt that most home schooling families would ever end up in "those" neighborhoods.


Oh, how about my neighbor kids from zip code 92339 who need a license for fido? Those are in zip code 92408. Whole different story down in San Berdoo...
 
2013-01-21 02:47:21 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Kimothy: Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Five paragraph essay.

I don't think they teach it anymore.

you've gotta be shiatting me, I graduated HS in 2001 and we were being taught it (In middle school I suppose). Obviously as the papers you write become longer and longer you need more than 5 paragraphs. By the time I graduated high school we were expected to be able to write a 5-10 page essay.

We still teach it. Kids have to pass a written proficiency exam in order to graduate. They are expected to write five coherent paragraphs to pass.

We also require seniors to write a 5-7 page research paper.

Keep in mind, a student that gets a 60% passes. There's a lot of dumbass kids skating by with that D.

Good! Lsherm scared me. Also, does this differ state to state? district to district?


To both of you:  I'm just happy anyone knows what I'm talking about.

Twitter version:  Me :)
 
2013-01-21 02:48:02 AM

Smackledorfer: Bumblefark: gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.

Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.

I was unaware "critical thinking" was a movement that meant 'not thinking'. In my experience it generally meant essay questions instead of regurgitating dates. If I wasn't thinking critically when I answered them, what was I doing?


Yeah....most of my students could not have told you when the "roaring 20s" took place. (We took a vote, once. Most common answer was the 1720s. I'm not exaggerating for comic effect.)

I've read more "critical thinking" essays than I would ever hope to admit.

There's a reason why that phrase is in quotation marks.
 
2013-01-21 02:51:20 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: For what it's worth I've only seen an episode or so myself. I'm glad you guys have a crutch that seems to work. That's a hell of a lot better than just sitting there frustrated and twiddling your thumbs while venting at the quality of kids these days =P

Seriously. And thankfully, I'm only on the outside looking in at that whole world. I was the token crazy 'liberal arts' chick who hung out with the physicists and chemists. Gave me a soft spot for social quirks and ADHD tics, that's for sure.


Heh, I bet they ain't got nothing on some of the electrical engineers I've met and went to school with... geeeez, then again maybe they do.
I guess on the upside, any of the kids you are working with who continue to utterly fail at communicating appropriately can probably find a job somewhere as a lab monkey; who only has to carry out the experiments they are given. It's not as rewarding as creating the experiments, and it's a position generally reserved for MCB undergrads who didn't realize that you *need* to at least have a masters or PHD if you didn't take MCB for pre-med. But it's a way to get by.
 
2013-01-21 02:53:41 AM
ukgovernmentwatch.files.wordpress.com

"I was in Nashville, Tennessee last year. After the show I went to a Waffle House. I'm not proud of it, I was hungry. And I'm alone, I'm eating and I'm reading a book, right? Waitress walks over to me: 'Hey, whatcha readin' for?' Isn't that the weirdest farkin' question you've ever heard? Not what am I reading, but what am I reading FOR? Well, goddamnit, ya stumped me! Why do I read? Well . . . hmmm...I dunno...I guess I read for a lot of reasons and the main one is so I don't end up being a farkin' waffle waitress."
 
2013-01-21 02:55:13 AM

Bumblefark: I had much the same experience, I think. Only, at home, for me. Starting around age 7, my parents had me memorize poetry to recite every Sunday after church. Don't remember athing about my religious upbringing, but can still recite about 30 or so complete poems by heart, 25 years later....and I have no doubt that this exercise gave me the ability to absorb and analyze more information than I would have been capable of otherwise.


I'm favoriting you simply for the awesomeness of having memorized poetry. I really, REALLY wish there was more of that in our lives. School tried with Shakespeare in 6th grade, but all I'm left with is "OUT, damned spot! OUT OUT, I say!"

My grandmother, all 95 years of her, still has a library's worth of poetry memorized from when she was a child. One of our favorite things to do when we hang out is for her to come up with a line from something she can't quite recall, and I'll google it, find the whole piece, and read it out loud.

Damn. I'm gonna go memorize a poem.
 
2013-01-21 02:57:26 AM
there once was a man from Nantucket...
 
2013-01-21 02:58:02 AM

VIDEOWALLART: Oh, how about my neighbor kids from zip code 92339 who need a license for fido?


I don't know. How about them?
 
2013-01-21 02:58:13 AM

log_jammin: hasty ambush: Just an example of truth costing an election. When the taxpayers find themselves outnumbered that is the result.

Like I said. keep on believing that. Keep thinking only republicans pay taxes or has a job. keep believing something that the tiniest amount of time spent thinking on the subject would show that belief to be false. keep fighting those strawmen in your head. after all, the rest of us out here in reality need a good laugh from time to time.


Laugh as the ship sinks you only have your selves to blame. It is no Strawman argument We have more people dependent on government than is healthy for free people or that we can afford. Keep going like we are and you might as well stick a fork in us. We are done as a nation.

More Americans work for the government than in manufacturing, farming, fishing, forestry, mining and utilities combined.

-------------

Record number in government anti-poverty programs

----------------

Record Numbers of People Paying No Income Tax; Over 58 Million


---------------

According to the Congressional Budget Office ) Obama's Buffett Rule will raise $3.2 billion per year. Or what the United States government currently borrows every 17 hours. So in 514 years it will have raised enough additional revenue to pay off the 2011 federal budget deficit. If you want to mark it on your calendar, 514 years is the year 2526.

For what Obama's spending, there aren't enough of them, or us, or "the rich" - and there never will be. There is only one Warren Buffett. He is the third-wealthiest person on the planet. The first is a Mexican, and beyond the reach of the U.S. Treasury. Mr. Buffett is worth $44 billion. If he donated the entire lot to the Government of the United States, they would blow through it within four-and-a-half days. OK, so who's the fourth-richest guy? He's French. And the fifth guy's a Spaniard. No. 6 six is Larry Ellison. He's American, but that loser is only worth $36 billion. So he and Buffett between them could keep the United States Government going for a week. The next-richest American is Christy Walton of Wal-Mart, and she's barely a semi-Buffett. So her $25 billion will see you through a couple of days of the second week. There aren't a lot of other semi-Buffetts, but, if you scrounge around, you can rustle up some hemi-demi-semi-Buffetts: If you confiscate the total wealth of the Forbes 400 richest Americans it comes to $1.5 trillion, which is just a little less than the Obama budget deficit for year


;
 
2013-01-21 03:03:22 AM

Lsherm: Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?

My parents had every Time-Life set from 1964 to 1988, including the Vietnam series.  When they moved to their retirement house in 2001, they gave all of them to the local library without asking us kids if we wanted any of them.

We were devastated.


Aw be shiat :(
 
2013-01-21 03:03:48 AM

DrPainMD: IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted

How is it that the problems have not already been identified? Almost every year there is a new study or "blue ribbon committee" established to look into education reform. And, really, what is there to discover? The reason our kids don't know anything is because they aren't being taught anything. When your curriculum is 30% how-to-use-a-condom, 30% look-how-evil-the-white-man-is and 40% the-government-can-solve-all-your-problems, it doesn't leave any time for the three Rs.


Michael Savage, is this your FARK handle? If so, it's wildly appropriate.
 
2013-01-21 03:05:37 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: I guess on the upside, any of the kids you are working with who continue to utterly fail at communicating appropriately can probably find a job somewhere as a lab monkey; who only has to carry out the experiments they are given. It's not as rewarding as creating the experiments, and it's a position generally reserved for MCB undergrads who didn't realize that you *need* to at least have a masters or PHD if you didn't take MCB for pre-med. But it's a way to get by.


I've known a few who went that route, and seem happy with it. The kids I work with are a good bit younger - all in very high poverty neighborhoods, and range from the itty-bitties who aren't quite sure which end of a book is up, to sullen near-adolescents who only admit to like reading if the girl they have a crush on has a book in her hand. They only WISH they had access to an HS lab, and that only for the potential of making things go boom!
Boom in a good way, not in an 'oh hell, it's another Fark newsflash' sort of way.
 
2013-01-21 03:07:44 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gregscott: The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.

I would believe in homeschooling as the solution if I believed even 1% of the population of parents is qualified and relied upon to teach up to high school level in ALL of the following subjects:

* Grammar & Spelling
* Literature
* US History
* World History
* Biology
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Trigonometry
* Calculus

In other words, there's no way in hell homeschooling in general* can replace education by professional educators.

I think the only thing homeschooling can be shown to be effective in teaching is that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.

*I'm sure YOUR parents are the 1% that can effectively teach in all of the above subjects.


Between my wife and I, we're quite competent in all of the the above areas. We taught our two kids until grades 7 and 9 and they got excellent scores when they attended public schools. But they had already mastered the basics, and more important, had a love for literature, and enjoyed reading, mathematics, science, music, arts, and so on.

Test scores show that home schooled students tend to excel overall, or at least they did back when I was home schooling and following the literature on the subject. BTW, I was certified in Physics and Mathematics Education, and my wife in Home Economics, English, and History and special education, so I definitely know what the "professional" environment is like. I don't knock the teachers, they do the best they can, but the classroom is much less efficient than tutoring, and a student that has been taught to value and pursue an education is virtually guaranteed success. The primary failing of institutionalized learning is that it generally teaches kids to HATE school, and loathe education.
 
2013-01-21 03:13:34 AM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: I guess on the upside, any of the kids you are working with who continue to utterly fail at communicating appropriately can probably find a job somewhere as a lab monkey; who only has to carry out the experiments they are given. It's not as rewarding as creating the experiments, and it's a position generally reserved for MCB undergrads who didn't realize that you *need* to at least have a masters or PHD if you didn't take MCB for pre-med. But it's a way to get by.

I've known a few who went that route, and seem happy with it. The kids I work with are a good bit younger - all in very high poverty neighborhoods, and range from the itty-bitties who aren't quite sure which end of a book is up, to sullen near-adolescents who only admit to like reading if the girl they have a crush on has a book in her hand. They only WISH they had access to an HS lab, and that only for the potential of making things go boom!
Boom in a good way, not in an 'oh hell, it's another Fark newsflash' sort of way.


That's awesome. You're in the 1% in this thread actually doing something about what we are all talking about. Keep it up.

... I miss working with kids sometimes. I've always said that once I'm done being an engineer, I'm gonna go teach.
 
2013-01-21 03:15:43 AM

log_jammin: VIDEOWALLART: Oh, how about my neighbor kids from zip code 92339 who need a license for fido?

I don't know. How about them?


Dumb as a stump, every last one of 'em
 
2013-01-21 03:20:07 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: ... I miss working with kids sometimes. I've always said that once I'm done being an engineer, I'm gonna go teach.


Thanks. I don't get to be in classrooms, but the letters from kids are awesome - still my favorite from ten years ago is:

"Thank you for the books. I love the books. I am trying to learn a stunt - to read a book, and ride a bike at the same time. I can't do it yet."

Closely followed by (in Spanish):

"Thank you for the books. Do you know I've kept them all? They are mine, and no one can take them from me."

Makes staring at Excel spreadsheets all day and dealing with donor reports worthwhile.
 
2013-01-21 03:23:09 AM

hasty ambush: More Americans work for the government than in manufacturing, farming, fishing, forestry, mining and utilities combined.


The Blaze? really? anyway, yes, when companies ship jobs overseas that's what happens. we lose those jobs. not really sure how this means democrats don't work or pay taxes.

hasty ambush: Record number in government anti-poverty programs


huge economic downturn followed by higher numbers of people in anti-poverty programs? you don't say... but again, I'm not really sure how this means democrats don't work or pay taxes.

hasty ambush: Record Numbers of People Paying No Income Tax; Over 58 Million


I like how you went with "number of people" rather than a percentage. according to your link 40% either didn't pay or got it all back. that percentage has been higher many times. still, I'm not really sure how this means democrats don't work or pay taxes.

hasty ambush: According to the Congressional Budget Office


so taxing the rich at a higher rate means democrats don't work or pay taxes?

hasty ambush: We are done as a nation.


Maybe the fantasy land of what you think this nation WAS. but that's about it.
 
2013-01-21 03:23:54 AM

VIDEOWALLART: Dumb as a stump, every last one of 'em


and probably scared of "the darkies" too.
 
2013-01-21 03:29:06 AM

log_jammin: hasty ambush


Dude, why did you even feed his trolly ass?

Just hoist a metal trash can over his head and bang on it with a big steel soup ladle for a minute.
 
2013-01-21 03:31:26 AM
Page 7?
 
2013-01-21 03:31:33 AM

Kittypie070: log_jammin: hasty ambush

Dude, why did you even feed his trolly ass?

Just hoist a metal trash can over his head and bang on it with a big steel soup ladle for a minute.


I like you; you're funny.
 
2013-01-21 03:33:23 AM

Kittypie070: a metal trash


but wouldn't that mean I have to get one from some "poor" person? probably right next to their fancy microwave cooker.
 
2013-01-21 03:36:29 AM

log_jammin: Kittypie070: a metal trash

but wouldn't that mean I have to get one from some "poor" person? probably right next to their fancy microwave cooker.


Fuh?
 
2013-01-21 03:42:56 AM
Does anyone here work with or associate with anyone who can write worth a damn?

Even simple, short, declarative statements in work e-mails are so riddled with spelling, punctuation, and logic errors that it's best to just speak to someone face to face rather than try to figure out the version of English specific to this one e-mail.

Professional people. Educated people. These I find to be the dumbest when it comes to writing and reading.

//Gets made fun of at work for always having a book and a newspaper on my desk.
 
2013-01-21 03:45:43 AM
Sometimes I think there might be more to life than just being really really good looking...
 
2013-01-21 03:52:02 AM

Kittypie070: Fuh?


yeah... I farked that joke up pretty bad didn't i?
 
2013-01-21 03:57:10 AM

EdNortonsTwin: Take away a kids toys and electronics, restrict them to their room for reasonable amounts of time with access to some good books, and they will learn to like it.

Staring at the wall gets old.


I have a couple of young Asian boys in my crawlspace that have become very good readers. I can't wait to see what they are like when they finally come out when they're adults.
 
2013-01-21 04:06:58 AM

log_jammin: Kittypie070: Fuh?

yeah... I farked that joke up pretty bad didn't i?


:D

Don't worry about it.
 
2013-01-21 04:22:35 AM

RabidJade: Proteios1: And people wonder why public education is no longer a sacred cow. They have been failing students on so many levels. It's sad because public education is one of the pillars of. Stable notion nd I can't help but see the connection between our weak public Ed and a faltering nation.

Parents who think teaching their children is someone else's problem and actively stay out of their kid's education until they get a call from the school are just as much to blame for this.


Yeah, this. I send my kids to a private school. It is a Lutheran based school, however I chose it after investigating the local public schools for reasons other than beliefs. Both of my sons are very adept readers. While my youngest was a kindergarten student we were at a party with other families from the classroom. One of the other set of parents remarked how their son could not yet read. I offered to loan them a set of "Bob books" that my son read, probably around age 3, explaining they seemed to help and maybe they could help him improve. They were appreciative but mentioned something along the lines of "We'll give them to him, and see what he does with them".

WTF? What he does with them? Not, "we can try and see if he gets better?"
 
2013-01-21 04:24:38 AM

weasil: I just want it known, for the record, that I read Catcher in the Rye and it sucked. It was not in any way a life-changing or enlightening experience for me, and I felt robbed of my time once I was don with it. Perhaps that is because I am neither male nor from a wealthy family, and so did not identify with the main character at all.


The measure of a book is not how much you like the people it describes.
 
2013-01-21 04:37:54 AM

weasil: Perhaps that is because I am neither male nor from a wealthy family, and so did not identify with the main character at all.


So, you can only enjoy stories about middle class or poor women? What a shame.
 
2013-01-21 05:02:32 AM

EdNortonsTwin: Take away a kids toys and electronics, restrict them to their room for reasonable amounts of time with access to some good books, and they will learn to like it.

Staring at the wall gets old.


Not true. I've tried this. My son ends up playing with his hands/fingers, making whooshing sounds or kapow sounds. He loses himself in his own mind.
 
2013-01-21 05:09:27 AM

ModernLuddite: Does anyone here work with or associate with anyone who can write worth a damn?


I think it's becoming a gay thing.
 
2013-01-21 05:36:34 AM
I read to my nieces and nephews (I haven't kids of my own, that I know of) all the time, just so i won't ever have to read their poorly written Facebook Status Updates.

/so maybe James Joyce wasn't the best choice of authors.
 
2013-01-21 05:39:52 AM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


I always wanted to eat off of the cheerleader what sat in front of me... 's plate.
 
2013-01-21 05:52:54 AM

NewportBarGuy: F*ck it. They're doomed anyway.

Teach them to make meth. At least they'll learn a trade.


Or a cash register.
 
2013-01-21 05:54:02 AM

doyner: netcentric: Yeah.....we're gonna need more taxes.

I'm ok with this if it mans are kids can reed good.


I wsh taxs moneys would go to the things I want 4 the future kids like reed gooding. I mean I don't mnd paing taxs 4 things like this. I hoap the make it bigger for this 1 thing. I call Obama tomorrow and tell him. I think hoap 4 the futr is here. 1 day my kids will reed good as me. that all we can hoap 4 and that all I want.
 
2013-01-21 06:00:07 AM
Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, a novel with deceptively simple language, is paired with Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece that alleges it is an elitist story.

I'm sure it will be impeccably researched and not at all coming to a hip conclusion that he wanted to prove in the first place.
 
2013-01-21 06:00:16 AM
Apparently, many farkers are so terrible at reading comprehension that they don't get references even when the damn reference is explained to them in the same breath.
 
2013-01-21 06:00:34 AM

Kevin72: 54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?


It's working, so shut your mouth before you get condom in it, it's day one for some poor kid.

www.cdc.gov
 
2013-01-21 06:25:44 AM
Even simple, short, declarative statements in work e-mails are so riddled with spelling, punctuation

Hell I just want people that can write subject lines better than "today" or "joe smith"

I blew a gasket at someone that wrote that as a subject line saying "what did he die? Adopt a puppy? Finish that program he was supposed to write?" Thankfully she took that as something to gain from.
 
2013-01-21 06:34:29 AM

IAmTheTagTeamChampions: I'd ask the assembled to weigh in on attempting to identify the problems and raise achievement rather than lower standards, but I feel that type of idea is utterly ridiculous.

/DNRTFA
//teacher
///disgusted


Quit being part of the problem.
 
2013-01-21 06:53:20 AM

jst3p: stiletto_the_wise: Wow, is Stormfront down or something? When did this thread turn into a dumping ground of racism?

Yeah I was wondering if Sunday night is "don't be ashamed to be a racist!" night now.


Whenever there is a Fark thread about some widespread social problem whose cause and solutions are unclear, about half the posters in that therad will simply see it as a opportunity to blame whatever their own ideological peeve may be for that problem.

Reading scores are down, so it must, ineviably mean that:
We are wasting time trying to educate ineducable, inferior minorities.
We are wasting resources trying to educate ineducable, emotional females.
The liberals are screwing up the schools.
The Christians are screwing up the schools.
Video games are making kids stupid.
Illegal aliens, something, something, something.........doesn't matter what.

Fill in the bland with whatever - it's so easy, even a child can do it(and on Fark, they often do).
 
2013-01-21 07:00:29 AM

Madame Ovary: Not true. I've tried this. My son ends up playing with his hands/fingers, making whooshing sounds or kapow sounds. He loses himself in his own mind.


Your son sounds retarded.

/sorry
 
2013-01-21 07:09:11 AM

Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?


Evangelicals prefer to have their people poor and stupid, since it means fuller pews and heavier tithing plates, and politicians took notice that these people tend to shut up and do as they're told.
 
2013-01-21 07:15:31 AM
Lowering the standards = leveling the playing field.
 
2013-01-21 07:42:28 AM

lelio: Even simple, short, declarative statements in work e-mails are so riddled with spelling, punctuation

Hell I just want people that

 who can write subject lines better than "today" or "joe smith"

I blew a gasket at someone that
 who wrote that as a subject line saying "what did he die? Adopt a puppy? Finish that program he was supposed to write?" Thankfully she took that as something to gain from.

FTFY

/I'll let you sort out the punctuation and other assorted errors.
 
2013-01-21 07:42:30 AM

Gyrfalcon: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I turned 31 today and most of my friends don't read. Most people don't read. I do not think this is news from the past 3k years or so.

I'm 48 and many of my friends don't read. Very few of my friends read for pleasure, although more read for information. Guess what: Lots of people dislike reading. It's not something that you can "teach", I don't think. Either you enjoy it very much--and you're like me and have at least 400 books in your house at any one time--or you don't, and seldom buy any kind of book and rarely read any.

I guess you can teach people how to read, and how to spot themes in stories and how to research and whatnot; but you can't really teach kids to like to read. Either they do or they don't. This isn't some new phenomenon. We could be teaching kids how to research and study better, but we'll never teach them to like to read.


I was reading on a fifth grade level when I entered kindergarten, and my parents were so proud.

Today? Long books just bore me. I'm good at reading, but it just doesn't interest me. However, if you put me in front of a computer, or give me a soldering iron and let me at some components, or let me play around with any broken machine, or turn your back on me with a bunch of household chemicals, I do really cool things.

I'm a tinkerer; an engineer. And to me, books basically broadcast what's going to happen, and are pre-constructed worlds, but when I start playing with my toys, I am creating my own world where I don't know what will happen next until I connect that wire, mix that chemical, compile that code, or flick that switch.
 
2013-01-21 07:43:12 AM

de_Selby: [wallpapersfor.net image 850x531]


Television is spelled wrong.  Haha.
 
2013-01-21 07:51:10 AM

The Southern Dandy: red5ish: "So many kids, often as many as 50 percent, graduate high school ... demonstrably not ready for the demands of a first-year college course or job-training program," says David Coleman, president of the College Board, a nonprofit membership organization that administers standardized tests like the SAT.


"To graduate" is a verb, and it can be both transitive and intransitive. A transitive verb takes an object and an intransitive verb doesn't. The school may graduate students (transitive verb) but a student graduates from school (intransitive verb). I can't imagine how the president of the College Board could make this mistake; he sounds illiterate.

[imageshack.us image 400x225]

So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?


YOU'RE NOT YOUR.
 
2013-01-21 07:52:26 AM
We have to lower the bar or they won't be as special as their predecessors.
 
2013-01-21 07:58:43 AM

Babwa Wawa: Am I the only one who finds it ironic that subby couldn't comprehend the contents of the article?   Nobody's changed the standards - in point of fact that's the central tenet of the article.  Reading scores have dropped, and so there is a new curriculum designed to raise them.

What I suspect is happening with reading scores is that it's easier than ever to skip the major works by scoping the Internet for the basic plot and some nuggets to make the teacher think the book has been read.  It's much harder to do that with non-fiction works, critical essays and things of the sort.

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.  I love literature, and believe that critical genres and authors should be introduced universally by the end of high school, but we have a tendency to over-do many of the genres.  I'm also doubtful of its necessity for reading comprehension. For example reading Shakespeare is important, but more than one or two of his works is unnecessary.   High school lit should be like tapas.  Small servings of a wide variety of genres.


330 comments?

This thread should have ended here...
 
2013-01-21 08:02:37 AM
The disconnect between what college professors think is important and what a society needs to function is surprisingly vast. Read 'catcher in the rye' if you WANT to. It's fiction and many people find it pretentious and insipid (in addition to boring and just plain awful).
 
2013-01-21 08:09:42 AM
more picture knowledge is good for stewdents
more pics of big macs and whoppers. make the stewdents know which buttons work on cash register to get food
smart stewdents. they learn drink sizes in american and liters. and coffee cup names.
 
2013-01-21 08:10:05 AM
FTA: "That's the rate of students who, upon graduating high school, must take remedial classes in certain subjects to take college-level courses."

A CSB that might be relevant here:

I was required to take "remedial" English courses when I entered college- despite having scored in the top 5th percentile in the state and the top 10th percentile in the nation for reading and language aptitude on the SAT.

Why was this? Well, in part because- even in high school- most of what I was being taught in terms of paper-writing formats was a decade outmoded (that is: 'no longer used') by the time they were teaching it to me.

The other part? Well, what I don't see anyone mentioning in this article is the conflict of interest an institution (be it a college or a "career training program") receiving a transfer student (be it a transfer from another college or from high school) might have in giving an entering student less courses and coursework to complete.

Colleges get paid by the course, after all. Anyone who's ever moved credits to another college or learning facility knows this, just as well as they know that the translation process for transferring credits is heavily biased by the recipient institution towards forcing the student to take more courses.

Already took that 300 level requirement in Economics for your plan of study in your origin institution? Expect to be forced to take it again after you transfer. Why? Cause if you don't have to take it again, the receiving institution doesn't get paid as much. Expect this to happen at least a half-dozen times or more during your transfer process.

Could it be that at least a few of these classes that are "lost-in-translation" are truly forced on the student again due to a lack of academic merit? Sure. I'd bet you could make that case about 33% of the time (I'm probably being generous here), but the rest is out-and-out bloodsucking, plain and simple. There are no real ways a student may arbitrate this process either, he is entirely at the mercy of whatever the receiving institution decides- right, wrong or indifferent.

Now we return to the matter of a student who is effectively "transferring" from a high school to a college. Do you think that colleges pad that "remedial" requirement of incoming students as a direct consequence of padding their bottom line? If you don't think so, you might not only have been born at night, you may have been born last night.


In the short form, I am not certain that measuring the number of "remedial classes" a student must take upon moving on from high school is at all truly indicative of how "undereducated" or under-prepared they might be upon leaving their origin institution.
 
2013-01-21 08:29:32 AM
More than fifty percent of high school students don't read good, and since we don't have a Derek Zoolander to build a center, we must change the reading standards instead of actually identifying and fixing the cause

Why is this surprising? We take a similar approach with gun violence.
 
2013-01-21 08:32:41 AM
The High Council of Conservative Douchenozzles exchanges glances and nods in silent approval.
 
2013-01-21 08:36:45 AM

red5ish: The Southern Dandy: So....what your saying is ...we don't need to know English good...to become the president of the College Board?

No! What I meant was...oh fark it all. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress.
www.officialmarkdavidson.com

this is my faverit show, lolz

/ow!
//my
///balls!
 
2013-01-21 08:51:35 AM
How else is Elizabeth Wurtzel going to make it into the canon of Western Lit?
 
2013-01-21 08:52:07 AM
"Our youth love luxury. They have bad manners and contempt for authority. They show disrespect for their elders and love idle chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants not the servants of the household. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers"
-- Socrates, 450 B.C.
 
2013-01-21 08:52:33 AM
At what point do we get to raise the bar and turn this thread into a giant recommended reading list, wherein everyone posts their favorite reads?

/end threadjack
 
2013-01-21 08:54:10 AM

Onkel Buck: Lowering the standards = leveling the playing field.


What students like/want = what they need to develop.

/ cinnamon buns and WoW.
 
2013-01-21 08:56:02 AM

The First Four Katy Perry Albums: -- Socrates, 450 B.C.


History is constant and linear?
 
2013-01-21 08:58:01 AM
I don't know all that but can anyone tell me if Ken Follett is acceptable literature or popular garbarge? Inquiring minds want to know...

Actually, I don't care. I can lie to myself all I want, but there's just no way I'm going to read Steinbeck, Shakespeare or Hemmingway if I don't have a diploma on the line to make me do it.
 
2013-01-21 08:58:43 AM
I majored in the first three Harry Potter books and am currently enrolled for my masters in Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.
 
2013-01-21 08:59:33 AM
You may call steampunk a literary genre, but I consider it a way of life.
 
2013-01-21 09:01:49 AM

raatz01: This isn't a bad idea. I'm not a big fan of non-fiction; it doesn't have the same benefits for a person as fiction does. If they're understanding more of what they read, even if it's less -- improvement?


I think it's more mundane than that.  When I was a kid, if I wanted to skip a book, I had to go to the store and buy the Cliff's Notes, or find a friend who had read the book to tell me about it.   Now, plot synopses and effective criticism is accessible on their mobile phones.  So - shocker- kids are reading fewer of their assignments.  I loved reading in HS, but I assure you I would have made full use of the Internet if that meant I could avoid reading stuff I didn't want to read. There are some kids who will use it to avoid reading much at all, and as a result -shocker- they are not performing as well on reading tests.

So I'm gathering the idea of Common Core is to give students reading assignments that are less susceptible to summary and interpretation.  Non-fiction fits the bill.  New Yorker articles like the Gladwell piece cited in the article definitely flexes the comprehension muscle, and not nearly as easy for someone just just head over to wikipedia for a summary of it.  The brilliance of it is that it's literary criticism on top of it all, so it's a double-whammy.

They'll learn them kids whether they want it or not...
 
2013-01-21 09:03:29 AM
Its not the curriculum, although I support modernizing and using books the kids can relate to.

Its the class size. Study after study after study shows over and over that student performance is directly tied to the ratio of teachers to students.

... but fixing that means hiring twice the teachers and doubling the size of schools... and nobody wants to pay for that.

So.. fark you kids. Hope your parents can afford a private education.
 
2013-01-21 09:08:50 AM

Alonjar: Its not the curriculum, although I support modernizing and using books the kids can relate to.

Its the class size. Study after study after study shows over and over that student performance is directly tied to the ratio of teachers to students.

... but fixing that means hiring twice the teachers and doubling the size of schools... and nobody wants to pay for that.

So.. fark you kids. Hope your parents can afford a private education.



Oh, and the average district spends $11k per year on each student. Class sizes are usually 20-30 kids... so you're talking about each class group getting $250,000. Maybe 50 of it goes to the teacher..... where does the rest go?
 
2013-01-21 09:13:59 AM

pedobearapproved: Kevin72: 54 days out of 180 to learn how to use a condom? Really? Really? Each and every year? Really?

It's working, so shut your mouth before you get condom in it, it's day one for some poor kid.

[www.cdc.gov image 550x413]


I am not anti-condom. I think it's great condom education is reducing teen pregnancies. My point was that DrPain was mindlessly regurgitating Michael Savage's bitter and skewed invective.
 
2013-01-21 09:17:05 AM

Maus III: Madame Ovary: Not true. I've tried this. My son ends up playing with his hands/fingers, making whooshing sounds or kapow sounds. He loses himself in his own mind.

Your son sounds retarded.

/sorry


I have one of those too.
 
2013-01-21 09:20:37 AM

neenerist: The First Four Katy Perry Albums: -- Socrates, 450 B.C.

History is constant and linear?


Duh, his point was the opposite, of the universal truths of human nature that were just as true in Socrates' time and place as is today.
 
2013-01-21 09:24:51 AM
Unions are awesome, huh?

The more left people become in this nation, the worse it will get. Can point to graduate degrees in basket weaving, sure, but face it..... libs don't want their snowflakes to be sad, so anything they do is awesome, even if it sucks.

As long as they get self-esteem given to them, all is well.
 
2013-01-21 09:42:00 AM

mgshamster: GungFu: Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth

My wife is dyslexic. She's really good at math, and a genius when it comes to chemistry. She barely studied for her exams in school and aced them.

But when she reads, the words and letters tend to jump around. Sometimes even whole lines will get mixed up. She has to double and triple check her work at her job to make sure that she doesn't misread numbers or words; because she usually does on the first read.


Have her try this, it might be a big help for a brainy dyslexic...
 
2013-01-21 09:48:07 AM

hasty ambush: Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, but could also be summer school programs, and are provided by nonprofit, for-profit or other state-approved companies.

But across the nation - and throughout Colorado - most of the poorest students in low-performing schools aren't benefiting.

At Thornton Middle School, for example, 556 students were eligible for free tutoring last year, but just two took part. And at Kepner Middle School in Denver, just 28 students out of 1,046 took advantage of supplemental services provided under the law.

An August study by the federal Government Accountability Office found that just 19 percent of eligible students nationwide participated during the 2004-05 school year.
-

You cannot force them to learn.


Used to work at a poor Chicago charter school that was required to offer Secondary Educational Services (i.e. after-school tutoring) to our students. The program was a joke..... the list of city approved providers were either companies using the program as a backdoor to try and sell their drill-and-fill test prep or filled with city cronies grateful for the free paycheck. The money wasted was spectacular! If the city had just written us a check we could have used it to pay our good teachers to stay longer and develop curriculum that would engage our student population. Instead we had to blow it on a pseudo free-market approach that was just a money grab for big companies and city-connected cronies.
 
2013-01-21 09:53:07 AM

hasty ambush: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Lame. Even Conservapedia knows that Thomas Jefferson quote is fake.
 
2013-01-21 09:53:44 AM

Arthur Jumbles: hasty ambush: Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, but could also be summer school programs, and are provided by nonprofit, for-profit or other state-approved companies.

But across the nation - and throughout Colorado - most of the poorest students in low-performing schools aren't benefiting.

At Thornton Middle School, for example, 556 students were eligible for free tutoring last year, but just two took part. And at Kepner Middle School in Denver, just 28 students out of 1,046 took advantage of supplemental services provided under the law.

An August study by the federal Government Accountability Office found that just 19 percent of eligible students nationwide participated during the 2004-05 school year.
-

You cannot force them to learn.

Used to work at a poor Chicago charter school that was required to offer Secondary Educational Services (i.e. after-school tutoring) to our students. The program was a joke..... the list of city approved providers were either companies using the program as a backdoor to try and sell their drill-and-fill test prep or filled with city cronies grateful for the free paycheck. The money wasted was spectacular! If the city had just written us a check we could have used it to pay our good teachers to stay longer and develop curriculum that would engage our student population. Instead we had to blow it on a pseudo free-market approach that was just a money grab for big companies and city-connected cronies.


If the teachers were good, why were the kids failing to begin with? Unions would have demanded double digit pay increases, cost probably 10 times more in the long run for no results.
 
2013-01-21 10:07:49 AM

Thunderpipes: Arthur Jumbles: hasty ambush: Offer of free tutoring ignored by families. If a school that gets Title I money - federal grants to benefit economically disadvantaged students - misses those goals three years in a row, it must offer supplemental services to low-income students.

Supplemental services are most often tutoring, but could also be summer school programs, and are provided by nonprofit, for-profit or other state-approved companies.

But across the nation - and throughout Colorado - most of the poorest students in low-performing schools aren't benefiting.

At Thornton Middle School, for example, 556 students were eligible for free tutoring last year, but just two took part. And at Kepner Middle School in Denver, just 28 students out of 1,046 took advantage of supplemental services provided under the law.

An August study by the federal Government Accountability Office found that just 19 percent of eligible students nationwide participated during the 2004-05 school year.
-

You cannot force them to learn.

Used to work at a poor Chicago charter school that was required to offer Secondary Educational Services (i.e. after-school tutoring) to our students. The program was a joke..... the list of city approved providers were either companies using the program as a backdoor to try and sell their drill-and-fill test prep or filled with city cronies grateful for the free paycheck. The money wasted was spectacular! If the city had just written us a check we could have used it to pay our good teachers to stay longer and develop curriculum that would engage our student population. Instead we had to blow it on a pseudo free-market approach that was just a money grab for big companies and city-connected cronies.

If the teachers were good, why were the kids failing to begin with? Unions would have demanded double digit pay increases, cost probably 10 times more in the long run for no results.


Our kids were 90% free and reduced lunch so we automatically had to have the tutoring services, whether we needed the program or not. Plus, as I mentioned, we were a charter school so that cuts out the union talk. While it's true that lots of poor school districts, like Washington DC, spend a ton of money on children most of it is wasted because they don't have the freedom to spend it on programs that would benefit their students. As I mentioned before we had to spend tens of thousands of dollars on an after-school tutoring program that was a joke.... we would have preferred using that money to buy books, use as bonuses for our best teachers, or to fix the school's broken oven so we could start servicing our kids hot food again. But we weren't given that choice so a rick publisher was made a little bit richer and my kids had to eat cold sandwiches.
 
2013-01-21 10:08:16 AM

Mentat: What's there to identify?  Read to your kids when they're young.


In the neo-liberal society, parents have no responsibility for their children. The state will take care of this, citizen.
 
2013-01-21 10:28:14 AM
If the rich people boosting private charter schools have to advance their agenda over failed public schools, then it makes sense to have unrealistic standards for the public schools first, and they've installed these, thanks to the Bush administration.

I wonder whether the charter schools get failing grades? From what I understand of that Chinese woman who's the charter school poster kid, she simply pencil-whips excellence into charter school results, just like the public school teachers in Chicago Rahm Emanuel complains about.


/had great 1-2 grade teachers, when it really counts
//voluntarily read books daily
///Moby Dick is awesome; you're just lazy, stupid or can't get past the phallic-sounding title
 
2013-01-21 10:28:17 AM

Thunderpipes: Unions are awesome, huh?


Yes. Next question.
 
2013-01-21 10:35:15 AM

Bumblefark: Smackledorfer: Bumblefark: gordian: Bumblefark: From what I've seen, the US pretty much stands alone in terms of its demonization of "rote" learning and its celebration of "critical thinking" learning.

It also stands alone in terms of the percentage of its population that thinks that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs.

Draw your own conclusions.

The kids who drive down the scores so much...and often talk about Jesus riding dinosaurs, or commit crimes in poor neighborhoods...aren't given much of a chance to learn to think critically.

Oh, nonsense. The "critical thinking" movement in education came out of the suburban schools, as a paper-thin rationalization for not requiring little middle-class snowflakes to actually learn a damn thing. Having spent the last decade or so as an educator, watching what became of that social experiment, I'm completely comfortable with my conclusion that it was a mistake.

True critical thinking requires intellectual discipline...something that can only be acquired in the first place from (*gasp*) rote learning. Learn the rules; then you can break them. Otherwise, you might tend to confuse *having an opinion* for a genuine intellectual accomplishment.

I was unaware "critical thinking" was a movement that meant 'not thinking'. In my experience it generally meant essay questions instead of regurgitating dates. If I wasn't thinking critically when I answered them, what was I doing?

Yeah....most of my students could not have told you when the "roaring 20s" took place. (We took a vote, once. Most common answer was the 1720s. I'm not exaggerating for comic effect.)

I've read more "critical thinking" essays than I would ever hope to admit.

There's a reason why that phrase is in quotation marks.


Yet you couldn't even answer the question I asked. Instead vomitted an unrelated date at me.
 
2013-01-21 10:40:56 AM

gregscott: stiletto_the_wise: gregscott: The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.

I would believe in homeschooling as the solution if I believed even 1% of the population of parents is qualified and relied upon to teach up to high school level in ALL of the following subjects:

* Grammar & Spelling
* Literature
* US History
* World History
* Biology
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Trigonometry
* Calculus

In other words, there's no way in hell homeschooling in general* can replace education by professional educators.

I think the only thing homeschooling can be shown to be effective in teaching is that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.

*I'm sure YOUR parents are the 1% that can effectively teach in all of the above subjects.

Between my wife and I, we're quite competent in all of the the above areas. We taught our two kids until grades 7 and 9 and they got excellent scores when they attended public schools. But they had already mastered the basics, and more important, had a love for literature, and enjoyed reading, mathematics, science, music, arts, and so on.

Test scores show that home schooled students tend to excel overall, or at least they did back when I was home schooling and following the literature on the subject. BTW, I was certified in Physics and Mathematics Education, and my wife in Home Economics, English, and History and special education, so I definitely know what the "professional" environment is like. I don't knock the teachers, they do the best they can, but the classroom is much less efficient than tutoring, and a student that has been taught to value and pursue an education is virtually guaranteed success. The primary failing of institutionalized learning is that it generally teaches kids to HATE school, and loathe education.


Are you blind or is your post a joke? Because most parents aren't certified in anything.

For all your claimed knowledge you fail at statistics if you think thd homeschooling parents are representative of the greater population. If you don't think that, why discuss how good their kids' test scores are in support of your 'everyone should homeschool' argument?
 
2013-01-21 10:48:44 AM

iron de havilland: largedon: Welcome to Sagan's nightmare.

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark


This.
 
2013-01-21 11:01:41 AM

enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems


I am blessed/cursed with a photographic memory (tested and verified) which prevents me from being able to enjoy a book more than once. As a kid I had read and committed to memory all that was worth reading in our small town library for children of the age of 8 years and younger, so I moved onto the "Young Adult" sections. By the age of 9 I had memorized all of those they had as well, and my reading comprehension and speed was incredible. I was sailing through a copy of "The Hobbit" in a matter of 5 hours (including the appendices) and I completed the average "Hardy Boys" book in about two hours or less.

At the ripe young age of 10 I discovered Kurt Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle, Sirens of Titan), Edward Abbey (Black Sun), and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. This opened up a whole new literary world for me, a world I devoured greedily. My parents were more than happy to explain the concepts in the novels I read and go into lengthy discussions about the ideas and themes in each book. These discussions served as teaching opportunities for my parents, and as bonding opportunities for us as a family.
Now, 16 years later, I am still reading prolifically and still (for the most part) unable to read any books more than once. As a side effect I am constantly searching for books I have not read yet and my friends and family call me the "Walking Encyclopedia" because of the facts and figures I have absorbed.

I find myself utterly depressed at the discovery of people my age who have read very little, preferring instead to "watch the movie" as if that is a substitute for the original work. You are doing your child a great service by instilling a love of literary works into her. If this nation had more parents like you then maybe we would have less of these violent misguided young people running wild in our society, acting out a real-life "Lord of the flies".

/keep up the good work.
//know any good reads?
 
2013-01-21 11:15:09 AM
I'm not American, but damn this was heartbreaking to watch...

newsroom.unl.edu
 
2013-01-21 11:19:14 AM

Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.


If the parents didn't distill a love of reading in kids at a young age, and they don't care now, you have an uphill battle my friend.

I would suggest that you should start my asking the students what THEY want to read and the only requirement be that it's a book. At this point even Twilight is an option (as much as it pains me to admit it)*.

I would start assigning writing reports as well to get them into a research frame of mind, give them a vague topic and have them pick the rest.

For example, My favorite English teacher had gave us 2 of my favorite assignments: Pick a Human Rights Abuse and Pick an "American Idol". You'd be surprised at how passionate kids can get over stuff like this.

I would definitely stick with books using modern language and throw out many of the "Classics" for now. Depending on age and maturity I would suggest Less than Zero, Fight Club, the Invisible Man, etc.

Anything on the "top 100 most censored books" is great IF you mention the fact to them, use the teenager's rebellious streak to your advantage. In fact, another favorite high school assignment of mine was where we went through the censored book list, read one of the books, and wrote a report discussing why it was censored and whether or not it should be, again very fun.

Encourage debates whenever you can, give the kid's the reader's digest version of Socrates, Plato, Freud, Jung, etc. Use current events for persuasive essays and encourage debate, get them engaged and interested. For example, I would assign a persuasive essays on gun censorship, it doesn't which side you pick as long as you reason well.

TL;DR: IMHO, the problem with English class is that there's an overemphasis on "classics" that are written in an entirely different language than today, make it hard to read for youngsters and many tune out. Also, overemphasis on grammar exercises and readings that where boring and tame. Push the envelope and engage them.

/Catcher in the Rye can go to hell
 
2013-01-21 11:55:55 AM

The One True TheDavid: Babwa Wawa:

I'm not sure what Common Core is, but a 70/30 mix of non-fiction to fiction is not a terrible thing, in my opinion.  The ability to digest complex written ideas is of primary importance.

But not Foucault or Nietzsche: the former is over-rated, the latter willfully obscure.


Oh God, someone else found Foucault obtuse as well.
 
2013-01-21 12:03:48 PM

neomunk: mgshamster: GungFu: Crap at reading and spelling?

There's an excuse for that.

You can call it dyslexia. Happy now? You're not dumb as fark and don't try, you have dyslexia. It's not your fault. It's not your fault....

Is dyslexia just a myth?
Dyslexia: a big, expensive myth

My wife is dyslexic. She's really good at math, and a genius when it comes to chemistry. She barely studied for her exams in school and aced them.

But when she reads, the words and letters tend to jump around. Sometimes even whole lines will get mixed up. She has to double and triple check her work at her job to make sure that she doesn't misread numbers or words; because she usually does on the first read.

Have her try this, it might be a big help for a brainy dyslexic...


Thank you. I'll let her know about it.
 
2013-01-21 12:07:54 PM

Kevin72: neenerist: The First Four Katy Perry Albums: -- Socrates, 450 B.C.

History is constant and linear?

Duh, his point was the opposite, of the universal truths of human nature that were just as true in Socrates' time and place as is today.


Ah, I get it. Not 'constant and linear', but 'universal'. Are you a product of the educational system under discussion?
 
2013-01-21 12:34:31 PM
-- quote

Between my wife and I, we're quite competent in all of the the above areas. We taught our two kids until grades 7 and 9 and they got excellent scores when they attended public schools. But they had already mastered the basics, and more important, had a love for literature, and enjoyed reading, mathematics, science, music, arts, and so on.

Test scores show that home schooled students tend to excel overall, or at least they did back when I was home schooling and following the literature on the subject. BTW, I was certified in Physics and Mathematics Education, and my wife in Home Economics, English, and History and special education, so I definitely know what the "professional" environment is like. I don't knock the teachers, they do the best they can, but the classroom is much less efficient than tutoring, and a student that has been taught to value and pursue an education is virtually guaranteed success. The primary failing of institutionalized learning is that it generally teaches kids to HATE school, and loathe education.

Are you blind or is your post a joke? Because most parents aren't certified in anything.

-- unquote

For all your claimed knowledge you fail at statistics if you think that homeschooling parents are representative of the greater population. If you don't think that, why discuss how good their kids' test scores are in support of your 'everyone should homeschool' argument?

I did mention that home schooled kids text scores are better than kids from public schools.
Those parents indeed are NOT certified in those areas. But their kids test scores surpass those of the certified professionals. My wife and I founded home school coop groups in Texas and Georgia, mainly as a way to help provide larger social groups where that was helpful. But we also helped in curriculum development and customization, and I assure you that the parents we knew did a fine job, in general, at devising a very strong curriculum.

Here's a citation from wikipedia backing up the assertion that home schools in 2008 did better than public, regardless of parents not generally being certified:

A study conducted in 2008 found that 11,739 homeschooled students, on average, scored 37 percentile points above public school students on standardized achievement tests.[26] This is consistent with the Rudner study (1999). However, Rudner has said that these same students in public school may have scored just as well because of the dedicated parents they had.[27] The Ray study also found that homeschooled students who had a certified teacher as a parent scored one percentile lower than homeschooled students who did not have a certified teacher as a parent.[26]

Note that having a certified home school parent is not necessarily an advantage.

My wife and I used a curriculum that was a hybrid of traditional tutorial methods and the "unschooling" philosophy of John Holt and others who were influential in non-traditional methods at the time. But our kids enjoyed Charles Dickens, for example, and lots of other classical English literature, as well as more modern literature.

One powerful two advantages of home school are that when something isn't working, you can try something else, until you find something that does work. Sometimes, that's just doing something else for a while. You can iteratively customize your curriculum to the student. Institutional teachers dream of the luxury of individualized instruction of this sort.

I'm not so a fan of some popular modern home school methods, which tend to be an electronic analog of a "workbook" approach, with canned lessons that everybody follows on their computer in sequence. One problem with that approach is that parents tend to be uninvolved, and assume that the computer will do the job. This undoes most of the advantages mentioned above, and kids can easily devise ways to be lazy and avoid doing the work, because the parents are trying to run the kids on remote.

Anyway, you've failed at statistics because you have cited none, whereas, I have provided the the source of current statistics, via the wikipedia article. Look them up, and educate yourself. It still works when you are an adult.
 
2013-01-21 12:50:13 PM

gregscott: One powerful two advantages


Did you accidentally the whole thing?

gregscott: of home school are that when something isn't working, you can try something else, until you find something that does work.


You can do that in public school too. Helps a good deal when you actually take responsibility for your loinspawn, no matter what institution of education they happen to be in.

gregscott: Here's a citation from wikipedia


Something you learn in late K-8: citations include sources- or they aren't citations at all. In this case, it would be exceedingly helpful if you provided a link or the URL of the wikipedia document you speak of.

You don't. If this is representative of your ability to write academic papers at the most basic level (a skill you will need in higher education, I promise you), you'd fail horribly at it. I shudder to consider whomever you're passing this on to.

gregscott: Anyway, you've failed at statistics because you have cited none


Technically, neither have you.

gregscott: whereas, I have provided the the source of current statistics, via the wikipedia article.


No, you haven't provided a source. Your source is "the wikipedia article". You haven't even given "the wikipedia article" an actual title here. If I provided a source to any professor as "the encyclopedia article", they'd flunk me. And they'd be right to do so.

gregscott: Look them up, and educate yourself. It still works when you are an adult.


Are you sure about that?
 
2013-01-21 01:10:53 PM
Yes, I accidentally the whole thing. I've typed since 1967, and have maintained a consistent 20wpm with poor accuracy. And sometimes I typo, because I have better things to do than proofread carefully. Fark is not a formal academic journal, in case you haven't noticed.

Yes, public schooling only works well, generally, when it is a supplement to an educational framework provided by a parent. In other words, home schooling is essential, public school is supplemental.

My citations weren't APA standard, no, but they were made available. Deal with it.

You're right, I haven't provided the statistics, but rather conceptual links too them that any competent person could easily find, if they cared.

In your case, perhaps not.

Absolutely sure. I'm formally educated in teaching. I'm primarily self taught in 2 other careers including a wide variety of computer programming and database languages, and am a pretty good self taught nature photographer. I'm in the middle of renovation my own bathroom, from subfloor, to plumbing, to cabinet and shower and tile installation. I can fix my car too. So yeah, I know a lot of things that I did not learn in a classroom.

See some of my photography at gregscott.artistwebsites.com and gregscott.com. Yes, some of my hand-written old school html is malformed. So what.
 
2013-01-21 01:19:22 PM

gregscott: My citations weren't APA standard, no, but they were made available.


Not APA standard? These wouldn't pass the old Footnotes and Biblography method either.

Once again, say it with me: Citations, include SOURCES.

Book or article, Page number (sometimes paragraph)- a way to find the cited text within the document being referred to. If these are not present, then I may as well be reading something you typed yourself.

A URL would do here. Or failing that, even a damn title to the article you're "citing" here so I could google the damn thing myself. Do you have any idea how many "the wikipedia articles" there are?

gregscott: Deal with it.


Deal with this:

F*

See me after class, greggscott.

And if this represents the quality of your teaching, your students are probably doing just as well.

Just had to double-down on that derp, didn'tcha?
 
2013-01-21 01:26:53 PM

gregscott: I did mention that home schooled kids text scores are better than kids from public schools.


Yes, you did mention that. The point I was making is that perhaps those home-schooled kids are better not merely because of home schooling, but because the type of parent who CHOOSES to home school, like yourself, has more dedication and education than the average parent. It isn't your lack of citation, it is your apparent lack of ability to look beyond the most basic of information provided by the facts you put forth. I know correlation is not causation is a little overused, but for all your appeals to your own brilliance in your posts you seem to require a reminder of just what 3rd variables are.

Those parents without a good base knowledge and teaching capacity, or time, shouldn't be home schooling. Of course, neither should they be relying on the public education system for everything and abdicate all responsibility.

There are an awful lot of people I know who shouldn't be home-schooling (and by that I mean pulling their kids from public school and teaching them at home instead). And while our current education system is certainly in need of repair, I don't think you are thinking your solution to the problem all the way through.

shiat, look at what politicians get away with. They outright lie about science, distort math as best they can, and seemingly do their best to avoid logic and reason in their campaigns altogether. These people get away with it by and large because of an ignorant and apathetic populace. Just how well do you think that populace's kids will be doing after a couple generations of home-schooling?

No, I think we need to stick with public schools and fix it. Kudos to your family for having the resources and know-how to surpass it, but I don't see the average family being capable of that. All a nation-wide shift to homeschooling would accomplish is reducing social mobility. The families that are already behind will become more behind and more locked in as a permanent underclass.
 
2013-01-21 01:33:14 PM

gregscott: However, Rudner has said that these same students in public school may have scored just as well because of the dedicated parents they had.


Oh I left a bit out. Did you read your study?

gregscott: Anyway, you've failed at statistics because you have cited none, whereas, I have provided the the source of current statistics


You do know statistics is about much more than merely citing a study and then running away with yourself as though it is absolute proof right?

Finally, try to at least rise above the level of my 7 year old cousin who reverses the time order of things to make his point when he gets into trouble and says he did X because his brother did Y when his brother clearly did Y after he did X.

Me: You fail statistics.
You: Nuh uh, here is a wiki. You fail statistics because I provided a source which I will call a statistic after you made your claim. So now I will mock you for not having a source before I did, haha!


Come on, even you have to admit that's a pretty weak argument.
 
2013-01-21 01:48:04 PM

stiletto_the_wise: gregscott: The article is an excellent example of a failed system failing to correct itself, and while outlining the problem, the article offers no effective solution. This is why you should home school, if you care about your kids and their education. Because nobody knows your kids like you do, and (gasp) nobody cares about them like you do. And the professionals can't do the job as well as you can.

I would believe in homeschooling as the solution if I believed even 1% of the population of parents is qualified and relied upon to teach up to high school level in ALL of the following subjects:

* Grammar & Spelling
* Literature
* US History
* World History
* Biology
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Trigonometry
* Calculus

In other words, there's no way in hell homeschooling in general* can replace education by professional educators.

I think the only thing homeschooling can be shown to be effective in teaching is that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.

*I'm sure YOUR parents are the 1% that can effectively teach in all of the above subjects.


In highschool I had professional educators that had masters degrees in the subjects they were teaching. And I also had "pro-fresh-and-all" teachers that had a couple of courses in the subjects they were teaching and putting me in the room with the book

I think the only thing a decently educated and dedicated parent might not be able to read ahead and teach the kid is a foreign language. After all text books teaching all those subjects ARE WRITTEN TO EXPLAIN THOSE CONCEPTS TO CHILDREN. And while you or I might not be dedicated enough to do these things, some parents are because they want what's best for their kid and don't need 7 hours of publicly funded babysitting.

Also speaking of Jesus dinosaur walking. if you didn't know the majority of American states still have some stupid law that limits teaching evolution. Usually it's a lot sneakier than you think, they will teach evolution but won't teach the core concepts that support it and turn out to be very important in doing a lot of careers that don't involve pushing a button over or bringing someone food.

and yeah some parents are crazy and want their kids to learn weirdo religious concepts instead of things that will help them in college and life, but that parent is still teaching their kids some things because they are concerned with the welfare of their child and it's much better than the parent who just doesn't care and expects the state to do an amazing job teaching their kid and are shocked when their little pill-head/paint huffer/pot head/drunk/Wow addicted/ADHD snowflake scores a 10 on the SAT.
 
2013-01-21 01:48:13 PM

shortymac: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.

If the parents didn't distill a love of reading in kids at a young age, and they don't care now, you have an uphill battle my friend.

I would suggest that you should start my asking the students what THEY want to read and the only requirement be that it's a book. At this point even Twilight is an option (as much as it pains me to admit it)*.

I would start assigning writing reports as well to get them into a research frame of mind, give them a vague topic and have them pick the rest.

For example, My favorite English teacher had gave us 2 of my favorite assignments: Pick a Human Rights Abuse and Pick an "American Idol". You'd be surprised at how passionate kids can get over stuff like this.

I would definitely stick with books using modern language and throw out many of the "Classics" for now. Depending on age and maturity I would suggest Less than Zero, Fight Club, the Invisible Man, etc.

Anything on the "top 100 most censored books" is great IF you mention the fact to them, use the teenager's rebellious streak to your advantage. In fact, another favorite high school assignment of mine was where we went through the censored book ...


This is why kids write loose instead of lose, ur instead of you're, teh, and all the other garbage.
 
2013-01-21 02:03:38 PM

gordian: Uchiha_Cycliste: Not to mention you get to a point where you are no longer teaching the material, you are teaching how to pass a test on the material A substantial difference, and a situation where you can't reasonably expect the kids to really absorb or remember the stuff they are tested on. In a very loose way I'd compare it to math, engineering and physics at the college level, you had a bunch of kids that would scour the class archives for tons of old tests, and study them over and over again hoping to see some of the problems and a bunch of kids who studied the material and went back over homeworks trying to learn the material. Now, while the first group of kids probably got better grades, a few years down the road the second group of kids are the ones who will still remember what was taught. I was in the second group, and my grades reflected that, but grades don't matter anymore and I remember a lot of what I was taught.

Interesting comparison to math. I'll use that. I've actually had a bunch of chem professors tell me the biggest problem with kids coming into the doctoral program is that they're horrible at speaking off the cuff about their projects, can't present well and can't find reasonable ways to write about them. One department head even told me that she tells her worst offenders to head to the bookstore and find some novel they'll enjoy - it helps. You gotta be a good reader to do any of it.

And exactly - teaching to the test is a horrible way to learn anything except for how to pass the next test.


This reminds me of my MBA Project Management class. 2 older gentlemen are doing a PowerPoint presentation and it's horrible. The PowerPoint has super tiny font and it's over-stuffed with details and the speaker is droning on and on.

A few slides in the professor stops them and says "You're engineers, aren't you?" YUP.
 
2013-01-21 02:03:51 PM

neenerist: Kevin72: neenerist: The First Four Katy Perry Albums: -- Socrates, 450 B.C.

History is constant and linear?

Duh, his point was the opposite, of the universal truths of human nature that were just as true in Socrates' time and place as is today.

Ah, I get it. Not 'constant and linear', but 'universal'. Are you a product of the educational system under discussion?


Duh, no. The system in question is for now and for the future. Where did you get your education, Mars? What is your point? You make no sense. Original Poster's idea was clear as a bell.
 
2013-01-21 02:05:44 PM

gregscott: You're right, I haven't provided the statistics, but rather conceptual links too them that any competent person could easily find, if they cared.


There are so many things wrong with this one sentence, I hardly know where to begin.

gregscott: too


Ease up on the O-key. Okay?

gregscott: but rather conceptual links


The word "link" implies a genuine, observable connection between two things. Adding a fifty-cent adjective in front of the four-letter word does not make what you're saying a reality. Sorta like "concept cars" is generally a term for cars that don't really exist either.

A hypertext link (also known as a URL, or Universal Resource Locator) is the most direct form of link one can provide on the internet. Clicking it brings me right to the document in question. Wikipedia articles are even further subdivided by hypertext anchors bringing one to specific paragraphs within the document- so you have the opportunity- as the person referring me to a given Wikipedia article- to get very specific here...

gregscott: that any competent person could easily find, if they cared.


...if you cared.

So, again referring us back to the I'm-the-Teacher-and-You're-the-Student analogy, just you try and tell your teacher that your paper doesn't deserve an F because the fact that the teacher never took the time to flip arbitrarily through every volume of the encyclopedia at the library until they found the citation you never gave a source for is just due to the fact that they're "lazy" and is in no way your own failure to obey very basic academic rules about writing papers.

See how your teacher takes that particular bit of advice. Now express this reaction in a resulting letter grade.

Copypasting a URL for a webpage you're on takes, maybe ten seconds. Tops. Hell, giving the title of a book or article you're referring someone to seems like so much common sense that doesn't even require any tech-savvy to figure out.

Who's the lazy one here again?
 
2013-01-21 02:10:26 PM

VIDEOWALLART: Home schooling is great, right up to the point where your 15 year old goes into the wrong neighborhood and some homie asks him "where you from"? - wrong answer, game over. oh no too bad so sad


You're right. Dying in the wrong part of town was the worst part of my homeschooling experience.
 
2013-01-21 02:25:40 PM

Thunderpipes: shortymac: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.

If the parents didn't distill a love of reading in kids at a young age, and they don't care now, you have an uphill battle my friend.

I would suggest that you should start my asking the students what THEY want to read and the only requirement be that it's a book. At this point even Twilight is an option (as much as it pains me to admit it)*.

I would start assigning writing reports as well to get them into a research frame of mind, give them a vague topic and have them pick the rest.

For example, My favorite English teacher had gave us 2 of my favorite assignments: Pick a Human Rights Abuse and Pick an "American Idol". You'd be surprised at how passionate kids can get over stuff like this.

I would definitely stick with books using modern language and throw out many of the "Classics" for now. Depending on age and maturity I would suggest Less than Zero, Fight Club, the Invisible Man, etc.

Anything on the "top 100 most censored books" is great IF you mention the fact to them, use the teenager's rebellious streak to your advantage. In fact, another favorite high school assignment of mine was where we went through the cen ...


Thunderpipes, you can't teach Algebra if they don't understand Addition.

Should his kids be farther along? Yes. However, if the children do not have a good foundation they can't continue to improve.

Even Twilight can be used for "enlightened" discussion, some topics I would do if I had a class read it would be:

What is the difference between love and lust?
Are werewolves an analogy for puberty?
Comparing Romeo and Juliet to Twilight (book 2 is basically a rip-off of)
Man versus his nature (Vampires controlling their "urges")
Abortion debate
Abusive relationships

That's from a horrible book.
 
2013-01-21 02:34:43 PM

SkunkWerks: FTA: "That's the rate of students who, upon graduating high school, must take remedial classes in certain subjects to take college-level courses."

A CSB that might be relevant here:

I was required to take "remedial" English courses when I entered college- despite having scored in the top 5th percentile in the state and the top 10th percentile in the nation for reading and language aptitude on the SAT.

Why was this? Well, in part because- even in high school- most of what I was being taught in terms of paper-writing formats was a decade outmoded (that is: 'no longer used') by the time they were teaching it to me.


I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses. Your conclusion is flawed.
 
2013-01-21 02:35:51 PM

shortymac: Kimothy: I'm almost at the point where I would pay my students to read. They don't read anything except the Internet. When I assign books, articles, poems, or anything written, all I hear is how difficult it is to read the  whole thing.

I've tried everything, too. Graphic novels, traditional novels, young adult, performance poetry (YouTube has some great poetry slam performances), you name it. I'm constantly wracking my brain to find stuff my kids will actually read. It's extremely frustrating. And sadly, more often than not, parents will tell me their child doesn't have time/can't/won't/whatever read, rather than trying to get them to read.

Not to mention the opportunities to cheat because of the Internet.

But yeah, blame the teachers. We've changed SO much since I was in school - when people actually would read.

//Get off my lawn.

If the parents didn't distill a love of reading in kids at a young age, and they don't care now, you have an uphill battle my friend.

I would suggest that you should start my asking the students what THEY want to read and the only requirement be that it's a book. At this point even Twilight is an option (as much as it pains me to admit it)*.

I would start assigning writing reports as well to get them into a research frame of mind, give them a vague topic and have them pick the rest.

For example, My favorite English teacher had gave us 2 of my favorite assignments: Pick a Human Rights Abuse and Pick an "American Idol". You'd be surprised at how passionate kids can get over stuff like this.

I would definitely stick with books using modern language and throw out many of the "Classics" for now. Depending on age and maturity I would suggest Less than Zero, Fight Club, the Invisible Man, etc.

Anything on the "top 100 most censored books" is great IF you mention the fact to them, use the teenager's rebellious streak to your advantage. In fact, another favorite high school assignment of mine was where we went through the censored book ...


I should note that the American Idol essay wasn't referencing the show, it was picking a famous person and explaining why they are an Idol.

We did the essay and watched the movie "Reversal of Fortune".
 
2013-01-21 02:41:23 PM

jst3p: SkunkWerks: FTA: "That's the rate of students who, upon graduating high school, must take remedial classes in certain subjects to take college-level courses."

A CSB that might be relevant here:

I was required to take "remedial" English courses when I entered college- despite having scored in the top 5th percentile in the state and the top 10th percentile in the nation for reading and language aptitude on the SAT.

Why was this? Well, in part because- even in high school- most of what I was being taught in terms of paper-writing formats was a decade outmoded (that is: 'no longer used') by the time they were teaching it to me.

I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses. Your conclusion is flawed.


My college forced everyone to take a remedial English, supposedly to "update" them but it's all for money, unless you transferred from another place.
 
2013-01-21 02:45:10 PM

jst3p: I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses.


I would think that scoring in the top 5th percentile statewide and the top 10th percentile nationwide for Reading/Language on the SAT would be relevant here- particularly since the people making the quoted observation administer the SAT.

Must be my bad. Or, yanno, your reading comprehension is flawed.

Either way, carry on.
 
2013-01-21 02:57:22 PM

SkunkWerks: gregscott: My citations weren't APA standard, no, but they were made available.

Not APA standard? These wouldn't pass the old Footnotes and Biblography method either.

Once again, say it with me: Citations, include SOURCES.

Book or article, Page number (sometimes paragraph)- a way to find the cited text within the document being referred to. If these are not present, then I may as well be reading something you typed yourself.

A URL would do here. Or failing that, even a damn title to the article you're "citing" here so I could google the damn thing myself. Do you have any idea how many "the wikipedia articles" there are?

gregscott: Deal with it.

Deal with this:

F*

See me after class, greggscott.

And if this represents the quality of your teaching, your students are probably doing just as well.

Just had to double-down on that derp, didn'tcha?


Double down on the derp?

It takes two seconds to go from his link to the source material, or to actually google it.

He looks right and you look like a whiny nitpicker.
 
2013-01-21 03:00:29 PM
Bring back Goosebumps books! That'll solve the problem, 90s style.
 
2013-01-21 03:10:00 PM

SkunkWerks: jst3p: I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses.

I would think that scoring in the top 5th percentile statewide and the top 10th percentile nationwide for Reading/Language on the SAT would be relevant here- particularly since the people making the quoted observation administer the SAT.

Must be my bad. Or, yanno, your reading comprehension is flawed.

Either way, carry on.


Not really.

Many schools use placement tests especially if you don't have great grades. They are distinct from statewide tests or the sat's.

If you had good grades, the scores you claimed to have and no placement tests to hose up and were still forced into remedial college classes you likely went to a shiatty school.
 
2013-01-21 03:21:42 PM

liam76: He looks right and you look like a whiny nitpicker.


You look, well...

img.photobucket.com

...and seemingly have no intention of improving that situation from back when I marked you as such.

liam76: Not really.


See above.
 
2013-01-21 03:24:43 PM

Cpl.D: Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?


Evangelicals prefer to have their people poor and stupid, since it means fuller pews and heavier tithing plates, and politicians took notice that these people tend to shut up and do as they're told.


*sigh*

Then Sagan's anticipated nightmare is coming true and we are headed for another age of superstition.

:(
 
2013-01-21 03:29:52 PM

washington-babylon: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I am blessed/cursed with a photographic memory (tested and verified) which prevents me from being able to enjoy a book more than once. As a kid I had read and committed to memory all that was worth reading in our small town library for children of the age of 8 years and younger, so I moved onto the "Young Adult" sections. By the age of 9 I had memorized all of those they had as well, and my reading comprehension and speed was incredible. I was sailing through a copy of "The Hobbit" in a matter of 5 hours (including the appendices) and I completed the average "Hardy Boys" book in about two hours or less.

At the ripe young age of 10 I discovered Kurt Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle, Sirens of Titan), Edward Abbey (Black Sun), and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. This opened up a whole new literary world for me, a world I devoured greedily. My parents were more than happy to explain the concepts in the novels I read and go into lengthy discussions about the ideas and themes in each book. These discussions served as teaching opportunities for my parents, and as bonding opportunities for us as a family.
Now, 16 years later, I am still reading prolifically and still (for the most part) unable to read any books more than once. As a side effect I am constantly searching for books I have not read yet and my friends and family call me the "Walking Encyclopedia" because of the facts and figures I have absorbed.

I find myself utterly depressed at the discovery of people my age who have read very little, preferring instead to "watch the movie" as if that is a substitute for the original work. You are doing your child a great service by instilling a love of literary works into her. If this nation had more parents like you then maybe we would have less of these violent misguided young people running wild in our society, acting out a real-life "Lord of the flies".

/keep up the good work.
//know any good reads?


Being and Time - Heidegger
 
2013-01-21 03:33:00 PM

SkunkWerks: liam76: He looks right and you look like a whiny nitpicker.

You look, well...

[img.photobucket.com image 141x60]

...and seemingly have no intention of improving that situation from back when I marked you as such.liam76: Not really.

See above.


Nice of you to clip out what I wrote and rely on your own fark tag. Really strong argument.

Too bad you are still wrong, still look like a nitpicker who is too lazy/stupid to use google, and the only question that remains is if you bombed on college placement tests, did poorly in high school English or went to a shiatty school?
 
2013-01-21 03:41:50 PM

liam76: Nice of you


Yes. I am nice. Thanks.

Look man, if you want to go that route, I'll tell you the same thing I told Greggo here:

In the wonderful world of academics, the burden to supply sources is on you, the person making the claim. As a student, the burden to give sources for citations is also on you.

If you really think that telling your teacher that the fact that they didn't want to look through the book stacks at the library at random to find the citation you didn't "trouble yourself" to give a source for is a sure-fire way to not get dropped a few letter grades, by all means, you go right ahead and do that.

The "laziness" argument cuts both ways, and tends to score you- the student- no points with your teacher when leveled against them. I'd have thought that- as the teaching paragon that HeyGreg claims to be- he might have known this without having to be told. Then again, I'd have figured he would have known what a citation was (all of it's components) without having to be told.


I guess this is all just part of the "new standard" right?

liam76: Too bad you are still


img.photobucket.com

Yes, yes it is too bad you still are. Better luck next time, seventy-six liams.
 
2013-01-21 03:45:24 PM

washington-babylon: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I am blessed/cursed with a photographic memory (tested and verified) which prevents me from being able to enjoy a book more than once. As a kid I had read and committed to memory all that was worth reading in our small town library for children of the age of 8 years and younger, so I moved onto the "Young Adult" sections. By the age of 9 I had memorized all of those they had as well, and my reading comprehension and speed was incredible. I was sailing through a copy of "The Hobbit" in a matter of 5 hours (including the appendices) and I completed the average "Hardy Boys" book in about two hours or less.

At the ripe young age of 10 I discovered Kurt Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle, Sirens of Titan), Edward Abbey (Black Sun), and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. This opened up a whole new literary world for me, a world I devoured greedily. My parents were more than happy to explain the concepts in the novels I read and go into lengthy discussions about the ideas and themes in each book. These discussions served as teaching opportunities for my parents, and as bonding opportunities for us as a family.
Now, 16 years later, I am still reading prolifically and still (for the most part) unable to read any books more than once. As a side effect I am constantly searching for books I have not read yet and my friends and family call me the "Walking Encyclopedia" because of the facts and figures I have absorbed.

I find myself utterly depressed at the discovery of people my age who have read very little, preferring instead to "watch the movie" as if that is a substitute for the original work. You are doing your child a great service by instilling a love of literary works into her. If this nation had more parents like you then maybe we would have less o ...


I get utterly depressed as well and I can't image the horror of being functionally illiterate.

I do usability testing for some computer programs my Hospital creates to make sure the questions and results are understandable.

One of our participants was functionally illiterate, I could tell that she was reading the paragraph but she couldn't comprehend it. It was the look of complete frustration and confusion, I almost cried for her.
 
2013-01-21 03:46:45 PM

DrPainMD: notatrollorami: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I read to my 12 year old daughter and my eight year old son every night and will continue to do so until they move out or beg me to stop. For now they still love it and look forward to it. When their friends sleep over we read anyway and they join in. All but one have really enjoyed it.

Be expressive, do voices when possible. People love to be read to. My wife listens in at times.

////Don't try to grammar nazi me on the second to last sentence.

Is it OK if we grammar nazi you for using a comma when a period or semi-colon should have been used?


Absolutely. I have no problem being corrected when I am actually wrong.
 
2013-01-21 03:50:41 PM

liam76: SkunkWerks: jst3p: I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses.

I would think that scoring in the top 5th percentile statewide and the top 10th percentile nationwide for Reading/Language on the SAT would be relevant here- particularly since the people making the quoted observation administer the SAT.

Must be my bad. Or, yanno, your reading comprehension is flawed.

Either way, carry on.

Not really.

Many schools use placement tests especially if you don't have great grades. They are distinct from statewide tests or the sat's.

If you had good grades, the scores you claimed to have and no placement tests to hose up and were still forced into remedial college classes you likely went to a shiatty school.


Yeah, I am curious Skunk, what school did you attend?
 
2013-01-21 03:52:15 PM

SkunkWerks: liam76: He looks right and you look like a whiny nitpicker.

You look, well...



...and seemingly have no intention of improving that situation from back when I marked you as such.liam76: Not really.

See above.


OH YEAH LIAM WELL I AM DEFENSIVE INSECURE AND VICIOUS TOO.

Seriously, SkunkWerks?
 
2013-01-21 03:54:00 PM

SkunkWerks: liam76: Nice of you

Yes. I am nice. Thanks.

Look man, if you want to go that route, I'll tell you the same thing I told Greggo here:

In the wonderful world of academics, the burden to supply sources is on you, the person making the claim. As a student, the burden to give sources for citations is also on you.


There is your problem you are confusing academics with Fark.

Actually, given your ease with tossing out insults it is pretty clear you know this isn't "academics" or are you dumb enough to think that is acceptable there), and lends weight to my belief you are nitpicking because you know you are wrong.


SkunkWerks: If you really think that telling your teacher that the fact that they didn't want to look through the book stacks at the library at random to find the citation you didn't "trouble yourself" to give a source for is a sure-fire way to not get dropped a few letter grades, by all means, you go right ahead and do that.


Nobody thinks that, but keep up with strawmen to keep hiding the fact you were too lazy/stupid to do a 10 second google search.


SkunkWerks: Yes, yes it is too bad you still are. Better luck next time, seventy-six liams


I take that as a compliment coming from such a stupendous failure like you.
 
2013-01-21 03:59:37 PM

Kittypie070: Those Time-Life books from the 70's were awesome. We had a not quite full set and I read the hell out of them.

I wish I had the Indiana Jones Washington DC warehouse FULL of sets of those to just give away to every damn school in the States. Multiple sets.

Every goddamned household should have a set of those books.

When I was a kid damn near every one of my relative's houses had a set of some kind of encyclopedias, it was like THE THING TO HAVE.

The hell happened to that concept?


The Internet, the Kindle, and the iPad.

As a child, we had two sets of encyclopedias - one sort of junior set, and one Britannica, along with the year books.  A massive dictionary sat in our foyer on a pedestal that would be typically used for a family bible. Loved 'em all.  And with my family's income, it was a burden to procure them.  My mom was obnoxious, nosy and judgmental (but we loved her).  She loved to go off with stuff like "Did you see their house?  Not a book to be found,"  To a certain extent, she was right - the priority a family put on education and knowledge was pretty much on display to everyone you invited into your home.

You can't really do that now. About the only printed references I have for my kids are  Timelines of History and some science books that have concepts that are difficult to convey outside of printed form.  I spend time with my kids teaching them to use search tools with an eye to surface the results they need, properly select their sources, and evaluate their quality.  We don't have a lot of books around the house, but our collection of ebooks would crowd out most houses if they were all physical books.  My kids are far better off in terms of access to information and written entertainment than I was.
 
2013-01-21 04:06:06 PM

shortymac: jst3p: SkunkWerks: FTA: "That's the rate of students who, upon graduating high school, must take remedial classes in certain subjects to take college-level courses."

A CSB that might be relevant here:

I was required to take "remedial" English courses when I entered college- despite having scored in the top 5th percentile in the state and the top 10th percentile in the nation for reading and language aptitude on the SAT.

Why was this? Well, in part because- even in high school- most of what I was being taught in terms of paper-writing formats was a decade outmoded (that is: 'no longer used') by the time they were teaching it to me.

I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses. Your conclusion is flawed.

My college forced everyone to take a remedial English, supposedly to "update" them but it's all for money, unless you transferred from another place.


What school? Was this a statewide requirement or one imposed by the school? Genuinely curious.
 
2013-01-21 04:15:16 PM

shortymac: washington-babylon: enry: My daughter is 10 and her mother still reads to her every night. They went to B&N today to get books and I'm constantly getting notices from the library about her soon-to-be-overdue books.

/yeah yeah, first world problems

I am blessed/cursed with a photographic memory (tested and verified) which prevents me from being able to enjoy a book more than once. As a kid I had read and committed to memory all that was worth reading in our small town library for children of the age of 8 years and younger, so I moved onto the "Young Adult" sections. By the age of 9 I had memorized all of those they had as well, and my reading comprehension and speed was incredible. I was sailing through a copy of "The Hobbit" in a matter of 5 hours (including the appendices) and I completed the average "Hardy Boys" book in about two hours or less.

At the ripe young age of 10 I discovered Kurt Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle, Sirens of Titan), Edward Abbey (Black Sun), and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. This opened up a whole new literary world for me, a world I devoured greedily. My parents were more than happy to explain the concepts in the novels I read and go into lengthy discussions about the ideas and themes in each book. These discussions served as teaching opportunities for my parents, and as bonding opportunities for us as a family.
Now, 16 years later, I am still reading prolifically and still (for the most part) unable to read any books more than once. As a side effect I am constantly searching for books I have not read yet and my friends and family call me the "Walking Encyclopedia" because of the facts and figures I have absorbed.

I find myself utterly depressed at the discovery of people my age who have read very little, preferring instead to "watch the movie" as if that is a substitute for the original work. You are doing your child a great service by instilling a love of literary works into her. If this nation had more parents like you then maybe ...


Jeez, it's awfully dusty in here.
/sniffle
 
2013-01-21 05:01:32 PM
I dropped out of 8th grade because I got the living shiat beaten out of me by about a dozen kids on the bus home on the last day before Xmas vacation started. That capped it right there.

Fast-forwarding through getting in trouble and meeting a juvenile cpourt psychiatrist who thought I was brilliant, I dropped out of college at age 14 to pursue sex & drugs & rock-n-roll.

Somehow at age 16.5 I managed to get a GED on the first try with no prep, but I still have very little formal education -- and my self-education is based on what's fun and doesn't include much science or math.

But I read very well. It helps that my father started teaching how to read before kindergarten: over the summer I was 6 I read all the Curious George books, saw the rest of the Children's section was no better, and started reading the Bible because it was there. Then when I was 10 this one teacher liked giving me IQ and scholastic tests: my IQ varied depending on whatever such things depend on but my reading scores were consistently past the high end of the tests he could get to give me, i.e. past 12th grade.

Draw your own conclusions about the applicability of anything in this post to this thread and the article it refers to.

Oh. Nietzsche isn't exactly obscure so much as demanding a deeper and broader intelligence than most people who read Nietzsche can manage and more patience with his inconsistencies than one should need, while Foucault's only worthwhile books are Madness and Civilization and Discipline and Punish. They both have a tendency to be too damn precious, except that Nietzsche comes out and says "I am so brilliant!" but Foucault just baffles with bullshiat -- especially when he gets all meta-theoretical on us.

And Nietzsche is wrong about Pauline Christianity being a "Jewish plot," indeed he has it backwards: Paulinism is a "plot" to use the Gentiles against the Jews, including the remnants of Jesus' disciples, for not recognizing what a great prophet the ranter from Tarsus was. Paul and Muhammad have that in common, except that the former plagiarized up a Greek mystery religion while the latter stayed closer to the original sources and fashioned a quasi-Jewish missionary sect. Most converts to Islam from the Peoples of the Book have been from the various Christian and Persian faiths, not from any form of Judaism; if any other religion could be characterized as "the Jews' revenge on the Gentiles" it would be Islam, which remains essentially "Semitic" and monotheistic despite the inevitable bastardizations. (For one thing one cannot truly worship the God of Abraham and not circumcise their men or refrain from eating pork.)

And no, this comment is neither coherent nor cogent. Sometimes even self-proclaimed geniuses have bad days.

I'm sorry, what was this thread about again?
 
2013-01-21 05:05:54 PM
Lol public schools
 
2013-01-21 05:41:34 PM

jst3p: shortymac: jst3p: SkunkWerks: FTA: "That's the rate of students who, upon graduating high school, must take remedial classes in certain subjects to take college-level courses."

A CSB that might be relevant here:

I was required to take "remedial" English courses when I entered college- despite having scored in the top 5th percentile in the state and the top 10th percentile in the nation for reading and language aptitude on the SAT.

Why was this? Well, in part because- even in high school- most of what I was being taught in terms of paper-writing formats was a decade outmoded (that is: 'no longer used') by the time they were teaching it to me.

I graduated in 1992 and took placement tests for college last year. I scored high enough to not require remedial English courses. Your conclusion is flawed.

My college forced everyone to take a remedial English, supposedly to "update" them but it's all for money, unless you transferred from another place.

What school? Was this a statewide requirement or one imposed by the school? Genuinely curious.


Imposed by school for me, it was a community college. I did that for my first 2 years to save money, I didn't discover this until a buddy of mine dropped-out his first year of college and transferred to the community to get his act together and set up a meeting with a transfer counselor after he had taken the "placement tests".
 
2013-01-21 05:53:19 PM

The One True TheDavid: I dropped out of 8th grade because I got the living shiat beaten out of me by about a dozen kids on the bus home on the last day before Xmas vacation started. That capped it right there.

Fast-forwarding through getting in trouble and meeting a juvenile cpourt psychiatrist who thought I was brilliant, I dropped out of college at age 14 to pursue sex & drugs & rock-n-roll.

Somehow at age 16.5 I managed to get a GED on the first try with no prep, but I still have very little formal education -- and my self-education is based on what's fun and doesn't include much science or math.

But I read very well. It helps that my father started teaching how to read before kindergarten: over the summer I was 6 I read all the Curious George books, saw the rest of the Children's section was no better, and started reading the Bible because it was there. Then when I was 10 this one teacher liked giving me IQ and scholastic tests: my IQ varied depending on whatever such things depend on but my reading scores were consistently past the high end of the tests he could get to give me, i.e. past 12th grade.

Draw your own conclusions about the applicability of anything in this post to this thread and the article it refers to.

Oh. Nietzsche isn't exactly obscure so much as demanding a deeper and broader intelligence than most people who read Nietzsche can manage and more patience with his inconsistencies than one should need, while Foucault's only worthwhile books are Madness and Civilization and Discipline and Punish. They both have a tendency to be too damn precious, except that Nietzsche comes out and says "I am so brilliant!" but Foucault just baffles with bullshiat -- especially when he gets all meta-theoretical on us.

And Nietzsche is wrong about Pauline Christianity being a "Jewish plot," indeed he has it backwards: Paulinism is a "plot" to use the Gentiles against the Jews, including the remnants of Jesus' disciples, for not recognizing what a great prophet the ranter from Tarsus ...


Now I feel MUCH MUCH better about not figuring out Foucault in 12th grade AP class, I was reading one of this books and just got a headache, it seemed to just talk and say farking nothing.

I remember him going on about some German words and their meanings and going "WTF does this have anything to do with the rest of the book?"

/Can't remember which one
//The only interesting part I remember is when he talks about the panopticon (may be confusing Foucault with another book)
///Considered going the "Get GED at 16 and head off to college" route but luckily I went to a magnet high school and had awesome teachers
 
2013-01-21 11:47:06 PM

DrPainMD: /I'll let you sort out the punctuation and other assorted errors.


Thanks, there's an extra dime for you if you do while I come up with the ideas.

BTW, this seems to say that "who" and "that" are fair game:

Jean Yates says in her book, "The Ins and Outs of Prepositions":
The people that ...


So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
2013-01-21 11:55:20 PM

lelio: DrPainMD: /I'll let you sort out the punctuation and other assorted errors.

Thanks, there's an extra dime for you if you do while I come up with the ideas.

BTW, this seems to say that "who" and "that" are fair game:

Jean Yates says in her book, "The Ins and Outs of Prepositions":
The people that ...

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.


So, improper English has become so common that some now consider it to be proper? I keep forgetting that Idiocracy was a documentary. Sorry.
 
2013-01-22 01:22:32 AM

DrPainMD: So, improper English has become so common that some now consider it to be proper? I keep forgetting that Idiocracy was a documentary. Sorry.


I bet you're a hit at parties. And if you think Idiocracy was about grammar then you missed the point.
 
2013-01-22 01:37:08 AM
The reason so many American kids suck at school is because they have been taught Reading, Riting, and Rithmetic! Stop teaching the 3 Rs and start teaching WAR!

:-D
 
2013-01-22 01:56:49 AM

DrPainMD: lelio: DrPainMD: /I'll let you sort out the punctuation and other assorted errors.

Thanks, there's an extra dime for you if you do while I come up with the ideas.

BTW, this seems to say that "who" and "that" are fair game:

Jean Yates says in her book, "The Ins and Outs of Prepositions":
The people that ...

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

So, improper English has become so common that some now consider it to be proper? I keep forgetting that Idiocracy was a documentary. Sorry.


I'm torrenting that right now. Will wonders never cease?!
 
2013-01-22 02:44:29 AM
The funny part is that so many people are suggesting so many different methodologies to solve this overall dilemma. But, the fact remains that the United States is not even remotely close to being the number one ranked school system in the world, let alone even one through five...

So, it would make far more sense to actually just send a scientific team to the top ranked countries, possibly with a group of our "top tiered" teachers through every grade range (possibly including teachers from almost every background imaginable, i.e. Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Atheists, Low-Income, High-Income, Fat, Skinny, Sick, Healthy, with children, without children, with adopted children, corporal punishment, non-corporal punishment, high IQ, low IQ...basically a large swath of our American landscape that represents our culture and societal vistas--as a whole. While the scientists would look for the very issues we're discussing here and in all of these higher educational systems they will determine what it is exactly that allows them to obviously progress more easily and much further than we do with our current educational system.

Then they can present it to the teacher's conference, were they can disseminate the information. The scientists before hand may wish to have a list of questions for the conference to answer; but the answers should provide them with a fairly average take on what a typical American would want to do with this knowledge, but with a teacher's insight and opinion which is very valuable/ Getting the ideas from some actual students might be good, but who they choose may be a harder decision. Also, who they pick for the teachers to help their research doesn't necessarily need to be an averaged-out and balanced, culturally and societally speaking, group of individuals. This truly would be a group of people picked to help, of course, but it may be true that many in the group truly are holding back the study due to their own inadequacies and even their prejudices... It may be more helpful, from the start (or to create a second group), to create a teacher's group with advanced capabilities in their own abilities to learn and their own I.Q., those that show advanced methodologies in teaching their students that are successful...at any grade level, teachers that have capacities to teach courses in very indoctrinated ways (teaching math more like an art or music course or English like a visual field), and finally getting together the best and the brightest of every field no matter their culture or societal background. BUT, they must remember that the children and young adults are the key in this, not their "glory" or self-fulfilling prophecies they may feel the urge to complete... They must also realize that as many have talked about on here that the United States academic system is broken; let me say that one more time, "The United States Academic System is Broken!"..., it needs an overhaul . . .

This is why we are looking at other countries, the ones that are doing it RIGHT!!!

Beyond this, yes things in the home environment need to change... For one thing, children should NEVER backtalk to a teacher or show disrespect (unless said teacher is someone that actually needs to be fired, the sure, fine go ahead--mouthing off may in fact raise awareness to what IS actually happening). School really should be a place of semi-reverence; not to the point that "life" has been stripped from it--but, you should show the same amount of respect to that building as you would your own front-room and respect and attention that you give your parents. But, I'm telling this to the wrong crowd. BUT, all of these changes, each one, start in the home. Not at school, but at HOME and with the parents! But, as other places have noticed we really don't give children enough time to be, children! The NUMBER ONE educational country in the world does exactly THIS! Kids must be kids...

Anyway, the studies we would do will be great and everything and we really can learn a lot from them. BUT, first and foremost the scientists and teachers involved must realize that the conventional system of learning, especially that used here in the United States, is worthless (atleast as time moves forward and the subject material is becoming more advanced...).

In this day and age we must learn to relearn, to expand our horizons and in this process create a new process of learning that is more fair to our students. One that recognizes the MANY ways of learning, from visual, audio, text, and hands-on... We must replace our jaded, dated system, to something more fair and balanced. But we really have to be introspective about ourselves and learn that if we have to teach via fear (spanking) then something is wrong, with you, your child, or the system. I got the corporal punishment treatment too (though it was used ONCE, for a very good reason), but psychologically speaking it is a tool that is based off of the inducement of fear... It works, but it's far better if you can get your child to see "eye-to-eye" with you, and get them to change on a fundamental change and more importantly...learn and grow.

Anyway, the U.S. must do something drastic to change our failing schools. It isn't the teachers OR the students, it is a fundamental error in how the school system is constructed from the ground up and what it teaches you, when and at what time--also how the children are treated AND how the teachers are treated...

//long
 
2013-01-22 08:00:40 AM
Jesus was a space alien.
 
2013-01-22 08:09:08 AM

kceaton: The funny part is that so many people are suggesting so many different methodologies to solve this overall dilemma. But, the fact remains that the United States is not even remotely close to being the number one ranked school system in the world, let alone even one through five...


Well, we don't have a school system.  We have thousands of school systems.  It's awesome for those with abundant resources, reasonably good for those with enough resources to move to a good school system, average for those in the middle class strata, and pretty bad for the rest of the population.

It very much mirrors our health care system which resembles less of a system and more of a market.

There will never be one "good" school system for the US.  Kids going to an upper middle class school where the majority of parents are at least interested, if not actively involved in their education need very different things than an impoverished school where the majority of parents are at least uninterested, if not actively abusive.
 
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