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(Politico)   Bill Clinton to Democrats: Don't trivialize gun culture   (politico.com) divider line 1115
    More: Advice, Bill Clinton, gun culture, Democrats, GOP House  
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16580 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jan 2013 at 5:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-20 06:21:58 AM

log_jammin: Hetfield: "Gun culture" is a pretty depressing term.

it's slightly better than "cracker culture".


Ha, true.
 
2013-01-20 06:22:54 AM

doglover: They're not just for killing.


Wow. That's some mental gymnastics shiat right there. Silver medal, at least. Yes, guns are for killing. That is their purpose. The fact that you can use them for other things doesn't change their purpose. Managing animals in the wild? Killing them. Target practice? Training for killing. Don't sugar coat it in your mind. At least have the honesty to admit that your little adult toy is supposed to kill stuff, whether you use it to play at killing things or actually kill them. It is a tool designed, made, sold, and used to kill. And one can argue that there is very little wrong with such a tool, but you can't honestly say it is for anything else.
 
2013-01-20 06:24:34 AM

doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.


THIS
 
2013-01-20 06:26:34 AM
doglover,
Wow. That's some mental gymnastics shiat right there. Silver medal, at least. Yes, guns are for killing. That is their purpose. The fact that you can use them for other things doesn't change their purpose. Managing animals in the wild? Killing them. Target practice? Training for killing. Don't sugar coat it in your mind. At least have the honesty to admit that your little adult toy is supposed to kill stuff, whether you use it to play at killing things or actually kill them. It is a tool designed, made, sold, and used to kill. And one can argue that there is very little wrong with such a tool, but you can't honestly say it is for anything else.

A gun without bullets may be pretty useless, but putting holes in paper is plenty different then the emotional or practical reality of putting holes in a person at a random moment in life.
 
2013-01-20 06:26:48 AM
The people I know all terrified about the guvmint taking their guns also tend to be ex-military. Why do they think the current military would suddenly go all fascist if Americans lost their guns?

"Now go round up all those agitators and lock them in camps to get re-edumakated!"

"uh, no, sir."


duh.
 
2013-01-20 06:26:57 AM
FTFA: Obama took 23 executive actions this week to curb gun violence, but his key proposals will need a vote from Congress to become law. With a GOP House unlikely to take up any new gun control measures - and even some Democrats expressing wariness - his only recourse is to make his case directly to the public.

Because the GOP will compromise if the public sides with the left?

BAHAHAHahAHAhahahAHHHAHAhahahAhAHhahahhhaHAHhahahahahahahAHHahaha

Article needs the Satire tag. The GOP wouldn't compromise if Jesus and Zombie St. Reagan, riding dinosaurs, delivered a hand written and signed letter from God, in his own blood and co-signed by Galactus and the WH40k corpse Emperor, telling them to.

The GOP will biatch and moan and generally obstruct any hope of any kind of progress, while Obama and the Democrats offer them increasingly watered down and conciliatory proposals that will finally culminate in something weaker than even the GOP and the NRA's own supporters wanted, and then the GOP will reject even that, all while publicly attacking Obama as a tyrant taking away your freedoms for even suggesting the topic.

Welcome to US politics of the 21st century.
 
2013-01-20 06:27:06 AM
Guns should be treated like cigarettes. Like buying cigarettes, purchasing guns/ammo should be accompanied by warning labels, public campaigns denouncing the culture, and other means that communicate the societal troubles that the gun culture has brings with it.

Right now, guns and violence are excessively glorified. Let's start by not doing that. Maybe there a few sensible regulatory measures that can be enacted, but any thoughts that removing a significant number of guns from the population via direct regulation is completely unrealistic.

It *has* to be done by reducing the demand for them, which can only be done by changing people's perception of guns.
 
2013-01-20 06:28:25 AM

fusillade762: doglover: Saturday Night Special is not an anti gun song. It's an anti cheap ass-nickle plated knock off guns song.

What's an ass-nickle?


farm6.static.flickr.com
 
2013-01-20 06:28:34 AM

pippi longstocking: The likelihood of you needing a gun goes up in proportion to your stupidity and criminal activity, neither ends well.


Know how I know you've never survived a home invasion?
 
2013-01-20 06:29:45 AM

unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS


You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?
 
2013-01-20 06:31:09 AM

doglover: This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.


Would you also vote for, say, segregationists if you thought that was the best way to "keep your guns around"?
 
2013-01-20 06:31:28 AM
Today's Gun Culture has its own magazine.

NSFW-ish
 
2013-01-20 06:31:41 AM
Please Bill, don't ruin the surprise.
Cause this issues going to turn up like a certain blue dress round the next election.

/that in mind: if your working hard to make a world that's gonna suck when a republican gets to be in charge of it, You might want to rethink that.
/Or nevermind. I'm sure nothing bad will come from expanding the nics to include the smallest details of your life and making it publicly accessible.
/Its all in the name of protecting children from terrorists...
 
2013-01-20 06:31:43 AM

phenn: pippi longstocking: The likelihood of you needing a gun goes up in proportion to your stupidity and criminal activity, neither ends well.

Know how I know you've never survived a home invasion?


Why, would it matter?
 
2013-01-20 06:35:50 AM
doglover: This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case

I completely agree. Both sides are bad.

/How do I sign up?
 
2013-01-20 06:39:21 AM

cowgirl toffee: Today's Gun Culture has its own magazine.


ISWYDT
 
2013-01-20 06:39:31 AM

Nuclear Monk: Maybe there a few sensible regulatory measures that can be enacted, but any thoughts that removing a significant number of guns from the population via direct regulation is completely unrealistic.


Sure, but the important thing is that self-serving scumbags can scare gullible rubes with thoughts that someone might remove a significant number of guns from the population via direct regulation.
 
2013-01-20 06:40:33 AM
Also, please read this book. It was written by an old professor of mine. If there are those among you who can't fathom the need for private gun ownership, and want the argument given with scientific rigor, this book is for you.
 
2013-01-20 06:42:53 AM

Lsherm: At this point, I think the gun show loophole has a real shot at getting closed.  As long as the Democrats don't stack a bill with a bunch of other unpopular proposals, it should be relatively easy to make the Republicans look ridiculous if they don't pass it.


The Republicans claimed that Obama was going to seize guns with executive orders, and had the far right whipped into a frenzy about it. Then Obama gave his speech, and his actions turned out to be limited, reasonable, and undoubtedly constitutional. Now Democrats need to do the same thing in the Senate. Come up with a law that only the far right can argue with. Something that will get some Republican votes. I know that the house wouldn't pass such a bill. They won't pass anything that has anything to do with guns. But a reasonable and modest bill with bipartisan support that gets killed by the radical right in the house will give the American people one more reason to throw out the tea party Republicans.

Or has gerrymandering in Republican states made that impossible?
 
2013-01-20 06:47:28 AM

Ilmarinen: unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS

You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?


You're a moron.
 
2013-01-20 06:50:51 AM

Enemabag Jones: A gun without bullets may be pretty useless, but putting holes in paper is plenty different then the emotional or practical reality of putting holes in a person at a random moment in life.


What a tool made for putting holes in paper might look like:
upload.wikimedia.org

What a tool made for killing might look like:
upload.wikimedia.org

It might be worth pointing out that guns made for hunting (for putting food in your fridge) are not the same as those made for killing people.
 
2013-01-20 06:51:19 AM

GAT_00: And?  Nobody declared that Clinton was right about everything.  And if "gun culture" means kids getting killed for supposed freedoms, fark gun culture.


If you RTFA, Clinton isn't saying that the pro-gun folks are right, he's saying that they tend to be single issue voters. Even if 70% of Americans are in favor of more firearm regulations, the 30% that disagree tend to REALLY disagree. Clinton is warning that it will cost Democrats in the senate and the house if they push for new regulation.
 
2013-01-20 06:52:35 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Ilmarinen: unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS

You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?

You're a moron.


Huh? Are you saying Republicans aren't the party of rape and bigotry?
 
2013-01-20 06:53:47 AM

Ilmarinen: unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS

You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?


I wouldn't be voting for rape and bigotry.  I would be voting for the lesser of two evils.  This shiat might be just enough to tip the scales.  Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.
 
2013-01-20 06:56:18 AM

unamused: Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.


Trying not to slam my face through the desk..
 
2013-01-20 07:05:39 AM
Listen to your boy, folks.

Clinton has been down this road. It wasn't pretty.
 
2013-01-20 07:05:49 AM

Alphax: unamused: Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.

Trying not to slam my face through the desk..


It's infuriating that you can't make someone vote the way you want them to, isn't it?
 
2013-01-20 07:06:29 AM
Uncle Tractor,
What a tool made for killing might look like:


You could argue that second tool could could with put holes in a book report, a target, an unknown person in your home at 3am or anybody you don't like on a college campus. That is the tough part.

I would like to see that second tool used to punch holes in a book report, just because.

Any tool you don't know how to use effectively at the moment you need it is pretty useless.
 
2013-01-20 07:06:44 AM

unamused: Alphax: unamused: Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.

Trying not to slam my face through the desk..

It's infuriating that you can't make someone vote the way you want them to, isn't it?


No sane person could type what you did.
 
2013-01-20 07:09:35 AM

GAT_00: Pray 4 Mojo: Remember farkers... "gun nut"... "small penis"... "Rambo fantasy"...

These things you say... they make Bill Clinton sad.

And?  Nobody declared that Clinton was right about everything.  And if "gun culture" means kids getting killed for supposed freedoms, fark gun culture.


Really now...no liberal ever said Clinton was wrong about anything, even when we all KNEW he was lying about something.
 
2013-01-20 07:10:03 AM

Warriors Warriors Warriors: Listen to your boy, folks.

Clinton has been down this road. It wasn't pretty.


pretty? Pretty!?!? It helped Newt become speaker. It was an outright disaster!

The kick in the face was that the assault weapon ban had a sunset, so the entire thing was for nothing.
 
2013-01-20 07:11:46 AM

Ilmarinen: unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS

You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?


It's only 6 AM but you just won the stupidest post of the day, hands down. Congrats, bigot.
 
2013-01-20 07:14:22 AM

Gunther: If you RTFA, Clinton isn't saying that the pro-gun folks are right, he's saying that they tend to be single issue voters. Even if 70% of Americans are in favor of more firearm regulations, the 30% that disagree tend to REALLY disagree. Clinton is warning that it will cost Democrats in the senate and the house if they push for new regulation.


I agree with that somewhat but I also think that gun regulation is more popular now than it was in the 90's since all of this is happening in the aftermath of some pretty tragic shootings which make the ones in the 90's pale by comparison.

I still think it's politicallly costly but it shouldn't cost the Dems as much as it did in the 90s.

unamused: Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.


Well that's a relief. Especially since nothing being proposed is unconstitutional.
 
2013-01-20 07:16:11 AM
These guns are the same, functionally.

i184.photobucket.com

Can someone please explain to me why the one on top one is okay but the bottom one is the boogie man?
 
2013-01-20 07:17:21 AM

gadian: Yes, guns are for killing. That is their purpose


No. Guns accelerate projectiles with expanding gas out of a tube. What you do with the projectiles is up to you.

I like target shooting. It's harmless fun and there's no reason I shouldn't be allowed to have an AR-15 and a banana clip because I've never done anything violent to anyone in my life that wasn't part of a sport and controlled. I've never even shot a squirrel, and god knows that's a common enough rite of passage for children with their first .22 or pellet gun all over PA.

Yes, you can also shoot living things. But that's merely a technicality. There's no mental gymnastics required to say you can shoot other things, because as a lifelong shooter other things are all I've ever shot or thought about shooting.
 
2013-01-20 07:18:15 AM
How many people here have had a few drinks?

I have, and if others, I want to know your drink of choice.

/Red wine.
//Threadjack, because it seems appropriate at the moment.
 
2013-01-20 07:18:24 AM

abhorrent1: These guns are the same, functionally.

[i184.photobucket.com image 502x393]

Can someone please explain to me why the one on top one is okay but the bottom one is the boogie man?


The one on the bottom looks more dangerous.
 
2013-01-20 07:18:43 AM

vernonFL:
Guns are made for moving a small projectile very quickly into  the body of another person in order to incapacitate or kill them.


... you have an interestingly broad definition of "person". Vegan, I take it?
 
2013-01-20 07:23:24 AM

Babwa Wawa: doglover: Guns are made for moving a small projectile very quickly into the body of another person living being in order to incapacitate or kill them.

Does that work for you?


Handguns are, in fact, designed with "persons" in mind. They're intended to provide killing efficiency. You don't hunt deer or ducks with a handgun.
 
2013-01-20 07:23:38 AM

abhorrent1: These guns are the same, functionally.

[i184.photobucket.com image 502x393]

Can someone please explain to me why the one on top one is okay but the bottom one is the boogie man?


The current major point of contention -- by which I mean the one that the reasonable people that are probably going to win the actual policy changes, not the morons like Feinstein who want the stupid one-aspect test AWB uselessness -- is not the gun so much as the magazine. The AR model pictured has a 30-round mag, the other has maybe a 10, probably a 5 or 8.

And by point of contention I mean it's the actual arguable one. Closing the gun-show loophole basically everyone agrees is a good idea, it's like 99% likely to happen, the one-test AWB basically everyone agrees is a stupid idea worth opposing, it's kind of a snowball in hell. Magazine size limits are sort of the part that can go either way without much trouble.
 
2013-01-20 07:25:57 AM

shotglasss: Ilmarinen: unamused: doglover: violentsalvation: The_Sponge: ORLY Slick Willy?  Then maybe you should not have signed that stupid "assault weapons" ban into law back in 1994.

He knows as good as anyone how that crap swayed the midterms. He knows it was a useless law, and it cost them a bunch of (D) seats.

And people will post some Washington Post opinion piece about how that isn't a concern anymore.. Uh huh. Wait and see, you're giving the GOP CPR with every gun control speech.

This is the big thing for me. I HATE the GOP as a rule, but it I will have to vote Republican to keep guns around (and no bolt action .22 long rifles with 5 round magazines aren't the guns I'm talking about) I'll do it. The Democrats only get my vote because they've had slightly better policies for me thus far. This is rapidly becoming not the case.

THIS

You guys would vote for rape and bigotry just to keep your guns?

It's only 6 AM but you just won the stupidest post of the day, hands down. Congrats, bigot.


How is he a bigot again?

I will agree the GOP doesn't endorse Rape per se, they just are very insensitive about it (ie: sex out of wedlock is just as bad as rape, Rape victims never get pregnant, etc.).

And I guess the GOP has turned down the rhetoric it had against Muslims like they did in 2010. That and that stupid law in AZ that got struck down which would've allowed police to stop and question anyone who "looks like an illegal immigrant".

That and the fact that the economy seems to do worse under a Republican than it does under a Democrat, just look at what happened when Bush was President, we had the largest financial crisis since the Great Depression largely because of some deregulation drafted and championed by the GOP back in the 1990's.
 
2013-01-20 07:26:14 AM
abhorrent1,
These guns are the same, functionally.
Can someone please explain to me why the one on top one is okay but the bottom one is the boogie man?


I am game. Granted you can swap out hardware to a greater or lesser degree on either, or just get a mini-14 if you are sick fark that wants to take out a grade school or a movie theater.

Perceptive.
1-One has wood, the other is black and evil.
2-One has a flash hider at the end of the barrel, making it more taticool.

Real:
1-One has a scope indicating it might be for hunting, the other has iron sites making it less useful for hunting. Spray and Pray might mean something to some people.
2-One has smaller magazine indicating it is probably used for hunting, the other has a large magazine making it more capable for battle and more scary in the media after 21 grade school kids just were shot. Please argue the 30 round is useful for hunting.
 
2013-01-20 07:26:25 AM

Alphax: unamused: Alphax: unamused: Clinton is trying to tell you idiots how not to be seen as enemies of the Constitution.

Trying not to slam my face through the desk..

It's infuriating that you can't make someone vote the way you want them to, isn't it?

No sane person could type what you did.


Of course I can.  Pretty much all Americans understand what "...shall not be infringed" actually means, it's just that half of us lie about it.

You demonize the Republicans as rapists and bigots because they fight against abortion and gay marriage.  When you pass your gun ban they are going to return fire by calling you anti-American, pro criminal, pro child rapist, etc.

If the pubbies take the Senate in '14 and the WH in '16, your ban will be overturned along with "Obamacare."
Will the minor woodie you guys get by sticking it to the rubes be enough to risk making that bet?  What about Roe?  There are 4 states down to one clinic we are on the cusp of having an antiabortion state for the first time since the seventies.  And that is with the Dems in charge.  How much will you lose if the pubbies get the throttle back?
How much are you willing to lose?
Eight years of Duhbya didn't teach you; maybe it will take eight of Rick Perry followed by eight of Michelle.
 
2013-01-20 07:27:46 AM

mksmith: You don't hunt deer or ducks with a handgun.


You don't hunt people with them either. They're for target ranges and self defense. But self defense is so rare. I know a man who's owned a handgun of one kind or another for defense for 60 odd years and was a long haul trucker. He's never needed to use it. And violent crime rates were a lot higher back in his day. But our families have hung out and put a lot of holes in milk jugs together.

Guns aren't evil, people are.
 
2013-01-20 07:28:20 AM

unamused: You demonize the Republicans as rapists and bigots because they fight against abortion and gay marriage.  When you pass your gun ban they are going to return fire by calling you anti-American, pro criminal, pro child rapist, etc.


They always say lots of untrue things. That won't change.
 
2013-01-20 07:29:44 AM

abhorrent1: These guns are the same, functionally.

[i184.photobucket.com image 502x393]

Can someone please explain to me why the one on top one is okay but the bottom one is the boogie man?


That top gun is not a Bushmaster .223.

It might be a semi-auto, but it is most definitely not an AR-15 style rifle.

/so how long have you been a journalism student?
 
2013-01-20 07:31:11 AM
Unless you're a milkjug. Then guns are worse than Kim Jung Il and Joseph Stalin sewn together into some kind of two headed mummy monster that hates Capitalists and dissenters.
 
2013-01-20 07:32:00 AM
It's simple... Obama probably knows it is not a good idea politically to just "executive action" the awb or the clip limit, so he threw those to congress so they can be the scapegoats... If it passes, and public emotion is high against it, he can blame the GOP... if it doesn't pass, he still looks good and he can still look like he "tried"... The EAs he did, were moderate and not really much of anything...
 
2013-01-20 07:32:20 AM
Bah, what would Bill Clinton know about winning two presidential elections against opponents who knew what they were doing?
 
2013-01-20 07:32:40 AM
If you are really, really concerned for your your safety, and the safety of your children, vote to ban alcohol.
It kills far more people per year then guns. the media is all about making headlines when a nut case kills a couple of people with a gun (not to trivialize Newtown), but on the same day, a drunk driver can wipe out a family of 5, and only the local news will cover that story.
No one talks about the 'alcohol culture'. Why is that? If I own a gun, somehow Liberals think I'm a crazed monster. But it's cool if I go out drinking with friends.
There is a far, far greater greater chance that I could have one to many drinks, and kill someone with my car, then killing someone with a gun.
 
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