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(Log Cabin Democrat)   Christians are being persecuted in Arkansas again. Religious groups told they cannot preach during lunch at public schools any longer   (thecabin.net) divider line 249
    More: Asinine, Ayn Rand, religious denomination, Freedom From Religion Foundation, New Life Church, middle schools, elementary schools  
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3439 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jan 2013 at 6:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-19 04:08:17 PM
Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"
 
2013-01-19 04:21:48 PM
It's kinda weird that preachers feel the need to keep in touch with these kids off church hours.
 
2013-01-19 04:24:53 PM
If only these children had more guns, they wouldn't need preachers to criticize them.
 
2013-01-19 04:34:27 PM
www.bible-researcher.com

Welcome to 0bama's America, comrades
 
2013-01-19 04:39:52 PM
Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.
 
2013-01-19 04:47:56 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-19 04:51:52 PM
 I would be PISSED if I found out some God-bothers were harassing my little girl during lunch at school.
 
2013-01-19 04:56:32 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.
 
2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM
Those poor, poor persecuted Christians.  I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.
 
2013-01-19 05:08:41 PM
Odds that I'll hear more about this later on facebook?
Hugh.
 
2013-01-19 05:14:08 PM
Who would want to endure raucous proselytizing and tasteless gruel simultaneously?
 
2013-01-19 05:14:43 PM

SilentStrider: Odds that I'll hear more about this later on facebook?
Hugh.


"IF YOU DON'T SHARE THIS YOU HATE JESUS!"
 
2013-01-19 05:14:53 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


Well, that's nice.
 
2013-01-19 05:17:31 PM

Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.


That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.
 
2013-01-19 05:22:43 PM

SkinnyHead: That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


Incomplete analysis. There is no speech being exercised by the students in this instance. Further, the issue of the school's power to regulate who can enter the campus during school hours (such as an adult) was not addressed - which is quite broad.
 
2013-01-19 05:33:37 PM
Do like in Mesa, AZ. The kids go across the street to the Mormon seminary. It's one of their scheduled class periods; a break where  they can leave campus.

Otherwise I want evolution lectured upon in Sunday school each week.
 
2013-01-19 05:35:19 PM

SkinnyHead: A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


i would agree with this. however, when i was in high school, i remember campus crusade for christ (or whatever) sitting down at our lunch tables uninvited and proselytizing. one guy even told me i was going to hell. now that's bullshiat. of course, this was 1987, so hopefully that sort of god-bullying doesn't still go on in public schools.
 
2013-01-19 05:40:16 PM

Solon Isonomia: Incomplete analysis.


Yes, it was a SkinnyHead post.  Now punch yourself for quoting one of the most known trolls and taking it seriously.
 
2013-01-19 05:44:04 PM

GAT_00: Solon Isonomia: Incomplete analysis.

Yes, it was a SkinnyHead post.  Now punch yourself for quoting one of the most known trolls and taking it seriously.


He wants to play GED in law, I'm game for now. Shiat, I'm not even refuting, I'm just pointing out the holes in the argument. Dude needs to step up his game, plus it might lead to a genuine discussion w/others.
 
2013-01-19 05:51:53 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


Indeed. If this was ANY religion besides Christianity being allowed exclusive access to children during the school day people would FLIP THE F*CK OUT.
 
2013-01-19 05:54:11 PM

fusillade762: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"

Indeed. If this was ANY religion besides Christianity being allowed exclusive access to children during the school day people would FLIP THE F*CK OUT.


To steal from one of my favorite professors, a certain element of our population would like to pretend that Section 3 of Article VI of the Constitution doesn't exist.
 
2013-01-19 06:01:20 PM
If the school allows invited guests to visit students for lunch, there's no problem with religious representatives visiting students whose parents invited them. However, if those guests try to speak to children other than those by whom they were invited, that's a problem, not even because of religion. Would any parent want any adult not employed by the school to approach their children? What if instead of "Have you heard the good news?" the question is "Do you like gladiator movies?" or "Have you ever seen a grown man naked?"
 
2013-01-19 06:04:14 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


Well, it's a good thing you're not Supreme Court Justice SkinnyHead, otherwise your opinion - which is factually incomplete - would mean something.
 
2013-01-19 06:08:14 PM

Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

Incomplete analysis. There is no speech being exercised by the students in this instance. Further, the issue of the school's power to regulate who can enter the campus during school hours (such as an adult) was not addressed - which is quite broad.


I'll try to do better.  I believe that right of free speech covers the discussion between the student and visitor.  The school's power to regulate who can enter the campus during school hours is addressed by the fact that the school has a policy that allows friends and family to visit students who consent to receive them.  Under that policy, pastors have been allowed to visit.

The only objection to these visits came from FFRF, which is a group that is hostile to religion.  Mere hostility to religion is not a valid reason to prohibit religious speech.  That's considered viewpoint discrimination. Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 US 98 (2001)

FlashHarry: SkinnyHead: A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

i would agree with this. however, when i was in high school, i remember campus crusade for christ (or whatever) sitting down at our lunch tables uninvited and proselytizing. one guy even told me i was going to hell. now that's bullshiat. of course, this was 1987, so hopefully that sort of god-bullying doesn't still go on in public schools.


We agree on that.  If these pastors are doing anything like that, then they're abusing the limited public forum and should be asked to leave.
 
2013-01-19 06:08:15 PM

BronyMedic: Well, it's a good thing you're not Supreme Court Justice SkinnyHead, otherwise your opinion - which is factually incomplete - would mean something.


Forget facts, it's incomplete in a legal sense. Like I said, if he wants to go down that line of thought he needs to step up his game. Someone as well known as him should have some standards.
 
2013-01-19 06:16:22 PM
Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.
 
2013-01-19 06:16:28 PM
Wait...WTH am I reading in this thread?  Is Skinnyhead engaging in a reasoned (though admittedly characteristically wrong) legal debate?

I feel dirty.
 
2013-01-19 06:17:47 PM

SkinnyHead: We agree on that. If these pastors are doing anything like that, then they're abusing the limited public forum and should be asked to leave.


Their is no reason for them to be there besides proselytizing. That is the stated goal of Christianity--go forth and spread the word.

I'm sure your cool with Muslims coming in just to chat with students.
 
2013-01-19 06:24:53 PM

SkinnyHead: I'll try to do better.  I believe that right of free speech covers the discussion between the student and visitor.  The school's power to regulate who can enter the campus during school hours is addressed by the fact that the school has a policy that allows friends and family to visit students who consent to receive them.  Under that policy, pastors have been allowed to visit.


Again, that's an incomplete, if not incorrect, analysis. You're making a freedom of association argument, not a speech argument, by limiting yourself to interaction between the requesting student and pastor. If the student was pronouncing his views (religious or otherwise) to others, then that would be free speech. If the pastor was pronouncing his views (religious or otherwise) to others, then that would be free speech as well. Moreover, the school also has the power to limit visitors in a much more restrictive fashion that you've laid out in a way that does not violate either speech or association rights, not to mention free exercise and establishment.

The only objection to these visits came from FFRF, which is a group that is hostile to religion.  Mere hostility to religion is not a valid reason to prohibit religious speech.  That's considered viewpoint discrimination. Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 US 98 (2001)

Good, you're moving to authority - unfortunately, you're citing only dicta and the authority is factually distinguishable.  Milford involved an after-hours program and a religion-specific regulation. In this case, you're dealing with visitors during school hours, thus the "limited public forum" situation does not apply. Further,  Milford cites three specific cases where establishment clause was violated because religious activities occurred - two of which were during school sponsored events (football game and graduation) and the other was during school hours (prohibition of evolution being taught in class). If you want to use  Milford, you need to explain why constitutional protections of free speech, association, or expression should be expanded and the establishment clause's protection should be decreased in light of  Milford and the relevant cases cited by the court.
 
2013-01-19 06:27:42 PM

Howie Spankowitz: Wait...WTH am I reading in this thread?  Is Skinnyhead engaging in a reasoned (though admittedly characteristically wrong) legal debate?

I feel dirty.


Like I said, he needs to step up his game if he wants to bring the GED in law out. Trolling or not, occasionally there are valid arguments that can be made by either side and it can be fun to find out what they are.
 
2013-01-19 06:27:47 PM

TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.


Parents of our elementary school students are known to stop by to have lunch with their kids on occasion.
 
2013-01-19 06:33:32 PM

Howie Spankowitz: Wait...WTH am I reading in this thread?  Is Skinnyhead engaging in a reasoned (though admittedly characteristically wrong) legal debate?

I feel dirty.


Reading those posts I'm tempted to ask WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH SKINNYHEAD?!?
 
2013-01-19 06:34:26 PM
i1079.photobucket.com
"Nothing outside you can give you any place.  You needn't look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where in your time and your body can they be?"
 
2013-01-19 06:43:07 PM

BiblioTech: TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.

Parents of our elementary school students are known to stop by to have lunch with their kids on occasion.


Wow, talk about separation anxiety.
They can't make it 6 hours without seeing each other?
I would have hated that, because lunch time was spark one up time, not family reunion time.
 
2013-01-19 06:51:17 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


nah, just troll them by bringing someone to advocate for literal interpretation of the bible, you know stonings, making sure any teacher on their period has to leave the city walls, etc...
 
2013-01-19 06:51:49 PM

TommyymmoT: BiblioTech: TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.

Parents of our elementary school students are known to stop by to have lunch with their kids on occasion.

Wow, talk about separation anxiety.
They can't make it 6 hours without seeing each other?
I would have hated that, because lunch time was spark one up time, not family reunion time.


Smoking during lunch? Man, you went to one tough elementary school.
 
2013-01-19 06:59:43 PM
now now, I'm sure the parents and school would have no problem if muslims came to the school to preach.

right?
 
2013-01-19 07:01:45 PM
Thanks, Obama.
 
2013-01-19 07:03:11 PM

Spanky_McFarksalot: now now, I'm sure the parents and school would have no problem if muslims came to the school to preach.

right?


Hare Krishnas would be even better.
 
2013-01-19 07:04:38 PM
No no no this is brilliant. The preachers can be heavily armed and--pew pew pew!--gun down any liberal Muslim murderers.
 
2013-01-19 07:06:58 PM

Solon Isonomia: Good, you're moving to authority - unfortunately, you're citing only dicta and the authority is factually distinguishable. Milford involved an after-hours program and a religion-specific regulation. In this case, you're dealing with visitors during school hours, thus the "limited public forum" situation does not apply. Further, Milford cites three specific cases where establishment clause was violated because religious activities occurred - two of which were during school sponsored events (football game and graduation) and the other was during school hours (prohibition of evolution being taught in class). If you want to use Milford, you need to explain why constitutional protections of free speech, association, or expression should be expanded and the establishment clause's protection should be decreased in light of Milford and the relevant cases cited by the court.


On the issue of whether lunch hour visitation constitutes a limited public forum, I would cite Prince v. Jacoby, 303 F.3d 1074, 1090-1091 (9th Cir.2002) as a case the recognized a "limited public forum" during school hours for purposes of free speech analysis, within the meaning of Good News Club v. Millford.

Prince v. Jacoby also answers the Establishment Clause concerns (1092-1094.)  "Like the Good News Club, the World Changers seek nothing more than to be treated neutrally and given access to speak about the same topics as other groups. Id. There is no question that requiring that the School District grant religious groups access to the ASB forum would ensure neutrality."  (1092)
 
2013-01-19 07:09:25 PM
Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me


Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4
 
2013-01-19 07:10:07 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


Sweet! I'm going to visit one of their high schools and share with all my good friends there the glory and power of Cybele. It's all good time, drinking and partying and self-castration - the kids will love it
 
2013-01-19 07:11:32 PM
This is the creepiest thing I've read in quite some time. Why would they be visiting at school? It's school. And just how much church does somebody need? And what school kid actually would want this? Can anybody visit kids at school then? When I was in school it would be creepy to have people visiting like this. School was for school.
 
2013-01-19 07:13:40 PM
No, they need to be told about "Bob" and the Miracle of $1. If Sister Suzie the Floozie and Sister Mary Squared showed up to tell them about the Saucers of the Sex Goddesses and the Land of Eternal Squirt, why, those kids would get right with Jehovah-1, the Aliens Space Brain Who came again and again to JUSTIFY their sins, praise Dobbs!
Pass that bowl of 'Frop around and take out the Buckets of Pils! We'll have us a good old fashioned down-home DEVIVAL ! YEEE HAWWW!
 
2013-01-19 07:15:26 PM

Kittypie070: Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4


I'm a-pickin' and a-grinnin'!
 
2013-01-19 07:15:27 PM
come here Kid, I want to discuss the doctrine of the Church of the Holy Robot Head with you!
 
2013-01-19 07:19:44 PM
Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.
 
2013-01-19 07:20:00 PM
pacmanchart.jpg
 
2013-01-19 07:20:24 PM

Solon Isonomia: BronyMedic: Well, it's a good thing you're not Supreme Court Justice SkinnyHead, otherwise your opinion - which is factually incomplete - would mean something.

Forget facts, it's incomplete in a legal sense. Like I said, if he wants to go down that line of thought he needs to step up his game. Someone as well known as him should have some standards.


Are people selling Fark accounts on e-Bay now? WTF? No one whose been on Fark for more than a day should have Skinnyhead and Standards in the same post...unless standards is modified with none, low, or the like.
 
2013-01-19 07:20:45 PM
Good this type of prayer at school is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

/i have no desire to live in a Christan version of a theocracy.
 
2013-01-19 07:22:11 PM

grimlock1972: Good this type of prayer at school is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

/i have no desire to live in a Christan version of a theocracy.


despite the lack of details of what's happening, you feel comfortable making that declaration huh?
 
2013-01-19 07:24:23 PM
My sophomore year of high school I lost all my friends to a church, what little I had in the way of friends, 3 boys and 2 girls. One girl convinced her boyfriend to go, he convinced 1 of the other guys then the other to go over the course of a month. I politely refused, not really grasping what was happening till it was too late. Five weeks after it had all started they all told me that they could hang out with me any more and see my soul damned, then they got a lot less polite about it. I was pretty much a pariah until my Junior year when I started hanging out with the stoners, who honestly couldn't given a fark if I was in church or not.

Probably should have just shot myself at the beginning of my freshman year and saved myself the 4 year headache.
 
2013-01-19 07:24:32 PM
"They are just supporting kids who go to their church," Clements said. "They are not trying to recruit other kids."

Umm, sorry. Unless they are there to participate in a comparative religion course, they shouldn't even be on campus. They can support the kids who go to their church at their farkin' church, FFS!
 
2013-01-19 07:24:44 PM

SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: Good, you're moving to authority - unfortunately, you're citing only dicta and the authority is factually distinguishable. Milford involved an after-hours program and a religion-specific regulation. In this case, you're dealing with visitors during school hours, thus the "limited public forum" situation does not apply. Further, Milford cites three specific cases where establishment clause was violated because religious activities occurred - two of which were during school sponsored events (football game and graduation) and the other was during school hours (prohibition of evolution being taught in class). If you want to use Milford, you need to explain why constitutional protections of free speech, association, or expression should be expanded and the establishment clause's protection should be decreased in light of Milford and the relevant cases cited by the court.

On the issue of whether lunch hour visitation constitutes a limited public forum, I would cite Prince v. Jacoby, 303 F.3d 1074, 1090-1091 (9th Cir.2002) as a case the recognized a "limited public forum" during school hours for purposes of free speech analysis, within the meaning of Good News Club v. Millford.

Prince v. Jacoby also answers the Establishment Clause concerns (1092-1094.)  "Like the Good News Club, the World Changers seek nothing more than to be treated neutrally and given access to speak about the same topics as other groups. Id. There is no question that requiring that the School District grant religious groups access to the ASB forum would ensure neutrality."  (1092)

Prince v. Jacoby

deals with the Equal Access Act, which covers secondary schools which receive federal money. this is an elementary school. further, the EAA only covers school activities that are not directed by outside parties...in this case, the religious groups are from outside the student body.
 
2013-01-19 07:26:02 PM

SkinnyHead: On the issue of whether lunch hour visitation constitutes a limited public forum, I would cite Prince v. Jacoby, 303 F.3d 1074, 1090-1091 (9th Cir.2002) as a case the recognized a "limited public forum" during school hours for purposes of free speech analysis, within the meaning of Good News Club v. Millford.


Better, but bear in mind you're relying on a single court's authority - try to spread out your sources lest someone sandbags you with a standard followed by four other circuits. You're also running into some of the same problems as before - you're citing something that can be distinguished on factual grounds.  Prince involved student led groups and a broad policy by the school to allow access to groups, thus creating a limited public forum. In the school in the article, you have informal visitors in the lunch room without an explicit mention of a similar policy. Citing  Prince is a step in one direction, but you need to articulate what  Prince stands for, how it applies to this particular case, and how supports your argument to expand the constitutional protection.

Prince v. Jacoby also answers the Establishment Clause concerns (1092-1094.)  "Like the Good News Club, the World Changers seek nothing more than to be treated neutrally and given access to speak about the same topics as other groups. Id. There is no question that requiring that the School District grant religious groups access to the ASB forum would ensure neutrality."  (1092)

Again, the quoted text directly references the ASB (Associated Student Body) club policy - the facts at hand in this article do not necessarily discuss such a policy. You need to apply the rule articulated in  Prince to the situation at hand to make your point. Sometimes it's akin to arguing from analogy, but that's a fast way to explain it. You're finding the authority, but you're not using it properly. To use an analogy, you're holding a gun and are throwing it like a rock instead of firing it. The later takes time and skill, but is much more effective and productive.
 
2013-01-19 07:29:31 PM

shamanwest: Solon Isonomia: BronyMedic: Well, it's a good thing you're not Supreme Court Justice SkinnyHead, otherwise your opinion - which is factually incomplete - would mean something.

Forget facts, it's incomplete in a legal sense. Like I said, if he wants to go down that line of thought he needs to step up his game. Someone as well known as him should have some standards.

Are people selling Fark accounts on e-Bay now? WTF? No one whose been on Fark for more than a day should have Skinnyhead and Standards in the same post...unless standards is modified with none, low, or the like.


Eh, it's a way to kill a Saturday afternoon/evening... and sometimes, just sometimes, when you see someone do something offensive you get fed up and want to at least see them do the offensive activity  well.
 
2013-01-19 07:30:17 PM

Apos: Who would want to endure raucous proselytizing and tasteless gruel simultaneously?


And on the flip side, do they really imagine the kids are even listening to them drone on and on while they shovel down their lunches and hurry out to recess?
 
2013-01-19 07:31:32 PM
Good for the FFRF.
 
2013-01-19 07:32:30 PM

Solon Isonomia: shamanwest: Solon Isonomia: BronyMedic: Well, it's a good thing you're not Supreme Court Justice SkinnyHead, otherwise your opinion - which is factually incomplete - would mean something.

Forget facts, it's incomplete in a legal sense. Like I said, if he wants to go down that line of thought he needs to step up his game. Someone as well known as him should have some standards.

Are people selling Fark accounts on e-Bay now? WTF? No one whose been on Fark for more than a day should have Skinnyhead and Standards in the same post...unless standards is modified with none, low, or the like.

Eh, it's a way to kill a Saturday afternoon/evening... and sometimes, just sometimes, when you see someone do something offensive you get fed up and want to at least see them do the offensive activity  well.


That's what I Can Haz Cheeseburger is for. :) Honestly, you'd get better conversation from Bevets.
 
2013-01-19 07:35:55 PM
lh6.ggpht.com
 
2013-01-19 07:36:34 PM
Oh great, the douche with a GED in trolling is here.
 
2013-01-19 07:38:22 PM

Darth_Lukecash: weird


Reminds me of some of the behavior Sandusky was accused of before his ass got tossed in jail.
 
2013-01-19 07:39:01 PM

SilentStrider: Hugh.


WTF?

I typed huge. I know I did.
 
2013-01-19 07:39:22 PM
Pastor misses his former lover? Why else he would want to go there?
 
2013-01-19 07:39:59 PM
goddammit.

HIGH, not HUGE.

Brain not working. Caffeine no longer helping. Nap time.
 
2013-01-19 07:41:06 PM

shamanwest: That's what I Can Haz Cheeseburger is for. :) Honestly, you'd get better conversation from Bevets.


True, but the guy is putting some actual effort in this time and I've had a vain hope for seven years that maybe real discussion can come from others observing the exchange and start said real discussion on the side.
 
2013-01-19 07:41:58 PM
Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?
 
2013-01-19 07:45:40 PM

GAT_00: Solon Isonomia: Incomplete analysis.

Yes, it was a SkinnyHead post.  Now punch yourself for quoting one of the most known trolls and taking it seriously.


It's not a troll if he believes it.

He's being somewhat Reasonable. Using actual cases.

The problem is that the 1st amendment specifically says the government cannot establish any religion. So no preaching is allowed. However, if the school allows visits then they should limit it to only family or allow it for others.
 
2013-01-19 07:46:34 PM

fusillade762: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"

Indeed. If this was ANY religion besides Christianity being allowed exclusive access to children during the school day people would FLIP THE F*CK OUT.



There is a United States Congressman currently flipping his lid about a post-secondary school using a $627 grant to buy some books about Islam. You just can't make this shiat up.
 
2013-01-19 07:47:09 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?



Because overbearing pompous Christians feel entitled to their way in everything.
 
2013-01-19 07:47:13 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


And why are religious folks so insecure that they can't go a week without going to the young people in their church and proselytize, especially in a school setting where all the other children are forced to be in the same room? Go to their house after school, fer fark's sake. If religion was true, you'd only have to teach it once, and it would be self-evident from that point on.

School probably needs to rethink their policy regarding all visitors. Seems their just asking for trouble.
 
2013-01-19 07:49:25 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


There's certainly no requirement nor is it very common. The better question is, why to religious idiots keep pushing things to the point where they have to be addressed in such a manner?
 
2013-01-19 07:49:31 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


Invite some Pastafarians. Cafeteria probably has mac n' cheese on any given day. They could call it communion.
 
2013-01-19 07:49:47 PM
If it's truly as the school district describes it -- that these are visits from the brainwasher to the children authorized by parents, with equal open access to other visitors -- there's no violation. It's no different than the little mind-victims gathering around the flag-pole to pray away their sense of reason before it develops.
 
2013-01-19 07:50:45 PM
Seems that this could be solved by opening up the lunch discussions to all religions and non-religious views.

If the school can't agree to do that, then they should not allow it at all.
 
2013-01-19 07:54:06 PM

Darth_Lukecash: GAT_00: Solon Isonomia: Incomplete analysis.

Yes, it was a SkinnyHead post.  Now punch yourself for quoting one of the most known trolls and taking it seriously.

It's not a troll if he believes it.

He's being somewhat Reasonable. Using actual cases.

The problem is that the 1st amendment specifically says the government cannot establish any religion. So no preaching is allowed. However, if the school allows visits then they should limit it to only family or allow it for others.


That's the real trick, isn't it? Schools become limited public forums in certain situations which creates a whole mess of which element of the First Amendment overrides the other elements. Me, I think there's a real discussion in where the visitors are allowed to be. Do you limit them to the lunchroom? The main office? Only when escorted?
 
2013-01-19 07:54:13 PM
What kind of person wants to go down to a school to hang around with kids they're not related to during lunch? It's pretty creepy.
 
2013-01-19 07:54:39 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


Because equal and opposite reaction.
 
2013-01-19 07:55:33 PM
Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.
 
2013-01-19 07:57:46 PM

skullkrusher: grimlock1972: Good this type of prayer at school is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

/i have no desire to live in a Christan version of a theocracy.

despite the lack of details of what's happening, you feel comfortable making that declaration huh?


Irrelevant period. Whatever this individual's intentions or motives are it is a privilege that can be exploited too easily. Furthermore once you allow it for one it is very difficult to say no to another. Let us say for the sake of this discussion he is benignly visiting these children, I don't know maybe he just really likes the hot dog cart across the street and just drops in out of sheer boredom. I have nothing against that but like I said once allowed that might encourage others to do the same and how can we be certain of their reasons for visiting. That is of course the best case scenario and as you pointed out we don't have all the facts its just as likely this guy has set up his own little ministry in the lunchroom. This guy is crossing a line and the school board knows it. I know you're a troll and a kinda bad one if you ask me, you come off as too dumb. A true believer would had scored himself some quality talking points from Rush or Beck at least before provoking us libs.
 
2013-01-19 07:58:06 PM
and on a pro homo website no less

count on very bad things to happen to these schools. kick God out and suffer the consequences
 
2013-01-19 07:58:58 PM
Sorry everyone I'm new and I gotta reach for the low hanging fruit ya know
 
2013-01-19 08:00:01 PM

Virtual Pariah: Seems that this could be solved by opening up the lunch discussions to all religions and non-religious views.

If the school can't agree to do that, then they should not allow it at all.


I agree with the idea in general, however, in practice, in their area, I'm betting that kids who might support other religions, or no religion, would be ridiculed, abused, etc.
 
2013-01-19 08:00:34 PM

JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.


Children don't have enough factual information to overcome the religious emotional trauma. They don't understand anything about the universe, and if you install the fear of eternal punishment and admonition, those emotions will rule them for life. They're easy pickings.

Next comes people who have screwed up lives -- the impoverished, victims of disasters, and the self-destructive -- because market demographics says they're emotionally ripe for the picking and susceptible to manipulation. Self-loathing is easy to turn into religion.
 
2013-01-19 08:02:45 PM

gameshowhost: cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?

Because equal and opposite reaction.


Lol you got that right. "YIkes it's Jesus, somebody call a lawyer!:

/pussies
 
2013-01-19 08:02:47 PM
Here's an idea: Don't let any "visitors" on campus. Not family, not friends, not friends of Jesus, nobody but students, faculty, administrators and staff.
I don't understand how this "policy" of allowing "visitors" began in the first place. Shouldn't students be learning how to socialize with other kids at that age? Can't they just eat lunch?
 
2013-01-19 08:03:09 PM

Kittypie070: Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4



Okay --

i1.squidoocdn.com

Which one are you?
 
2013-01-19 08:03:23 PM

Solon Isonomia: Darth_Lukecash: GAT_00: Solon Isonomia: Incomplete analysis.

Yes, it was a SkinnyHead post.  Now punch yourself for quoting one of the most known trolls and taking it seriously.

It's not a troll if he believes it.

He's being somewhat Reasonable. Using actual cases.

The problem is that the 1st amendment specifically says the government cannot establish any religion. So no preaching is allowed. However, if the school allows visits then they should limit it to only family or allow it for others.

That's the real trick, isn't it? Schools become limited public forums in certain situations which creates a whole mess of which element of the First Amendment overrides the other elements. Me, I think there's a real discussion in where the visitors are allowed to be. Do you limit them to the lunchroom? The main office? Only when escorted?




Here's the thing: if you have an open forum, it must be open for all. You cannot prevent a student run group just because it's religious. The school cannot demand students join it, but can't stop people from joining it. The key being the students need to run it.

If the school has open visitation that is not limited to family of the student, then they have to allow in everyone. What will happen is that the school will just not allow visitors.
 
2013-01-19 08:03:50 PM

ricochet4: Prince v. Jacoby deals with the Equal Access Act, which covers secondary schools which receive federal money. this is an elementary school. further, the EAA only covers school activities that are not directed by outside parties...in this case, the religious groups are from outside the student body.


Yes, of course. Jacoby deals with the Equal Access Act in Part III.  It deals with First Amendment issues in Part IV.

Solon Isonomia: Better, but bear in mind you're relying on a single court's authority - try to spread out your sources lest someone sandbags you with a standard followed by four other circuits. You're also running into some of the same problems as before - you're citing something that can be distinguished on factual grounds. Prince involved student led groups and a broad policy by the school to allow access to groups, thus creating a limited public forum. In the school in the article, you have informal visitors in the lunch room without an explicit mention of a similar policy. Citing Prince is a step in one direction, but you need to articulate what Prince stands for, how it applies to this particular case, and how supports your argument to expand the constitutional protection.


I'm not advocating an expansion of constitutional protection.  I am applying existing constitutional doctrine to the facts stated in the article.  The school has created a limited public forum by allowing visitors during lunch hour.  The school cannot deny some visitors and students the opportunity to participate in lunch hour visitation based on viewpoint discrimination.  The burden should be on the school district to articulate a legitimate reason.  FFRF has not suggested a legitimate reason.

Solon Isonomia: ...The later takes time and skill, but is much more effective and productive.


If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.
 
2013-01-19 08:07:23 PM

red5ish: Here's an idea: Don't let any "visitors" on campus. Not family, not friends, not friends of Jesus, nobody but students, faculty, administrators and staff.
I don't understand how this "policy" of allowing "visitors" began in the first place. Shouldn't students be learning how to socialize with other kids at that age? Can't they just eat lunch?


Sort of like not having prom because you are afraid a same-sex couple might show up. We know how well that worked the last time.
 
2013-01-19 08:09:57 PM
Change the rules and apply a security standard where kids to not get visitors. Of course an exception would be parents in the office.
 
2013-01-19 08:11:38 PM

SkinnyHead: I am applying existing constitutional doctrine to the facts stated in the article.


See, there's the thing. We don't know the facts. We are *told* that they aren't preaching to anyone but their own, but there's that little thing about being open to "questions" from kids who haven't had parents signing permission slips.

I'd bet the way the policy is written and the way it's carried out are going to be two different things, otherwise they wouldn't halt the program for review. Missionaries are slimy little bastards, just one step below marketers and advertisers -- they're likely bringing the "review" to find out which witnesses have seen anything damning.
 
2013-01-19 08:15:24 PM
TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:

The public school district has turned over the handling of the issue to the Liberty Foundation, a right wing Christian group.:"Liberty Institute will also be speak for the district on this issue from now on, Murry and Mateer said. Murry referred questions to Liberty Institute when asked how he decided to hire the group."

So Conway Public Schools outsources their policy decision to a right wing religious group.
 
2013-01-19 08:19:12 PM

phaseolus: Kittypie070: Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4


Okay --

[i1.squidoocdn.com image 525x309]

Which one are you?


Those weren't the Gloom & Despair boys.
 
2013-01-19 08:19:16 PM

JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.


The biggest reason they go after the young is that when you are aged 5 through about 11 or so, you are still pretty damn impressionable. Once they get you believing everything they tell you, then they start making sure you believe nothing else.

And a lot of 'Christians' need to get over their persecution complex.
 
2013-01-19 08:19:34 PM

red5ish: Here's an idea: Don't let any "visitors" on campus. Not family, not friends, not friends of Jesus, nobody but students, faculty, administrators and staff.
I don't understand how this "policy" of allowing "visitors" began in the first place. Shouldn't students be learning how to socialize with other kids at that age? Can't they just eat lunch?


Not only that, I question the overall mental stability of a person who wants to come preach at kids during their school lunch. This seems like an easy one to win from a safety point of view, too, especially given our current skittishness over school safety. As a parent, I don't want my child's school letting potential child predators or unstable people into the school. If a parent wants to bring their kid a lunch she forgot, fine; even sit with her for a few minutes before heading out, fine too. But some preacher or 'friend' who has no real business coming to the school? Sorry, no.
 
2013-01-19 08:19:43 PM

SkinnyHead: I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.


ohwaityou'reseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg
 
2013-01-19 08:24:40 PM
"I get older, they stay the same age." said Pastor Wooderson.
 
2013-01-19 08:25:16 PM

HairBolus: TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:

The public school district has turned over the handling of the issue to the Liberty Foundation, a right wing Christian group.:"Liberty Institute will also be speak for the district on this issue from now on, Murry and Mateer said. Murry referred questions to Liberty Institute when asked how he decided to hire the group."

So Conway Public Schools outsources their policy decision to a right wing religious group.


It was probably outside evangelicals who convinced them to write the policy the way it is in the first place. Now that the school is under fire, the administration probably went back and said, "You said we'd be safe brainwashing kids this way, but they've caught us! Help! Help!"
 
2013-01-19 08:25:16 PM

SkinnyHead: I'm not advocating an expansion of constitutional protection.  I am applying existing constitutional doctrine to the facts stated in the article.  The school has created a limited public forum by allowing visitors during lunch hour.  The school cannot deny some visitors and students the opportunity to participate in lunch hour visitation based on viewpoint discrimination.  The burden should be on the school district to articulate a legitimate reason.  FFRF has not suggested a legitimate reason.


Inaccurate summation of the facts as presented and, again, an incomplete analysis. You didn't articulate how the visitation policy (which merely discusses visitation, not events) equates a policy allowing student organizations to utilize school grounds to hold meetings - every legal argument has a logical leap, but you need to fill that gap as much as you can before making said leap. Without the limited public forum being solidly established, the burden is extremely low on the school (and the FFRF has no burden at all).

If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

I'm not dazzled yet. You're trying to use authority properly, I'll give you that - many of the high school students I teach this stuff to on a volunteer basis don't get that far.
 
2013-01-19 08:28:24 PM

HairBolus: TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:

The public school district has turned over the handling of the issue to the Liberty Foundation, a right wing Christian group.:"Liberty Institute will also be speak for the district on this issue from now on, Murry and Mateer said. Murry referred questions to Liberty Institute when asked how he decided to hire the group."

So Conway Public Schools outsources their policy decision to a right wing religious group.


That's... incredibly short-sighted of the district, not to mention the article might be exaggerating on the the degree of control Liberty Institute has in the district.
 
2013-01-19 08:28:43 PM
Life in Fartbongo's Fartmerica: I can't indoctrinate children into my cannibalistic death cult on school property during school hours. FREEDOM IS OVER.
 
2013-01-19 08:29:51 PM
Another end run around the establishment clause getting smacked down it seems.
 
2013-01-19 08:30:14 PM

ScaryBottles: Irrelevant period. Whatever this individual's intentions or motives are it is a privilege that can be exploited too easily. Furthermore once you allow it for one it is very difficult to say no to another. Let us say for the sake of this discussion he is benignly visiting these children, I don't know maybe he just really likes the hot dog cart across the street and just drops in out of sheer boredom. I have nothing against that but like I said once allowed that might encourage others to do the same and how can we be certain of their reasons for visiting. That is of course the best case scenario and as you pointed out we don't have all the facts its just as likely this guy has set up his own little ministry in the lunchroom


see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.

ScaryBottles: I know you're a troll and a kinda bad one if you ask me, you come off as too dumb. A true believer would had scored himself some quality talking points from Rush or Beck at least before provoking us libs.


2012-11-27

Right... if you think I am dumb, it's because you're too dumb to understand.
 
2013-01-19 08:36:10 PM
I graduated from Conway High School in 1992--when I was there, there was none of this horseshiat going on.  WTF has happened in the last 20+ years that has made this militant Christianity become malignant?
 
2013-01-19 08:38:43 PM

skullkrusher: see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.


You need to get past the limits on constitutional protections given to students when in school. Things work differently for minors in that environment. And you still need to address the interplay between the multiple rights found within the First Amendment, eh? But, generally speaking, you present the question in a way that should be considered.
 
2013-01-19 08:38:53 PM
God stopped the sun at Jericho, but He can't be bothered to rain down fury on this bullshiat.

Christians, you might want to rethink your path. Just sayin'.
 
2013-01-19 08:40:41 PM

cchris_39: gameshowhost: cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?

Because equal and opposite reaction.

Lol you got that right. "YIkes it's Jesus, somebody call a lawyer!:

/pussies


YOU MISREPRESENT MY WITTY COMMENT, SIR
 
2013-01-19 08:41:46 PM
Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people
 
2013-01-19 08:42:56 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people


Are you a product of the Mayflower schools?  Please don't tell me you're from Vilonia.
 
2013-01-19 08:43:07 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people


How were they lecturing? In a corner quietly? In a room? Loudly in a large cafeteria?
 
2013-01-19 08:44:50 PM
media.tumblr.com

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom
 
2013-01-19 08:47:34 PM
went to vilonia schools up until junior high, then I moved

as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.
 
2013-01-19 08:50:20 PM

GWSuperfan: Spanky_McFarksalot: now now, I'm sure the parents and school would have no problem if muslims came to the school to preach.

right?

Hare Krishnas would be even better.


Nation of Islam for the LULZ
 
2013-01-19 08:50:29 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.


Yeah, that starts to become a problem even under  Milford's circumstances.
 
2013-01-19 08:52:02 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: went to vilonia schools up until junior high, then I moved

as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.


When was this?  Like I said, 20+ years ago it wasn't so bad in Conway.  Granted, then  "Coach" Clements was one of several "teachers" that slipped little evangelical messages in in class.  Otherwise it was pretty quiet.  I thought Conway was pretty progressive (relatively) back then.
 
2013-01-19 08:57:58 PM

HairBolus: TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:


I have a feeling a Federal court will not look kindly on this. Its possible they could draft a constitutional policy that the FFRF  and local officials could both be happy with but I doubt it. You would think they would be better off working with the U.S. Department of Education and the Center for Public Education on this one rather than an openly sectarian religious organization.
 
2013-01-19 08:57:59 PM

phaseolus: Kittypie070: Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4



Okay --

[HeeHawGirls.jpg]

Which one are you?


I'm this one.

calitreview.com
 
2013-01-19 08:58:08 PM

FlashHarry: SkinnyHead: A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

i would agree with this. however, when i was in high school, i remember campus crusade for christ (or whatever) sitting down at our lunch tables uninvited and proselytizing. one guy even told me i was going to hell. now that's bullshiat. of course, this was 1987, so hopefully that sort of god-bullying doesn't still go on in public schools.


They prefer romping about state colleges now and handing out bibles. There is a guy that hits all the Cal State schools wearing billboards. He stands in front of the library and yells at all of us that we are going to hell. We generally ignore him, laugh at him, or take pictures and make memes.
 
2013-01-19 09:00:32 PM
Kelly Shackelford of the Liberty Institute (representing the school district) seems to have a thing for Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council AKA a hate group.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/kelly-shackelford
 
2013-01-19 09:02:19 PM

Solon Isonomia: skullkrusher: see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.

You need to get past the limits on constitutional protections given to students when in school. Things work differently for minors in that environment. And you still need to address the interplay between the multiple rights found within the First Amendment, eh? But, generally speaking, you present the question in a way that should be considered.


this is all assuming that the minister is not preaching to the room. If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns
 
2013-01-19 09:03:10 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom


wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!
 
2013-01-19 09:05:50 PM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-19 09:06:38 PM
 
2013-01-19 09:08:45 PM
Histrionic Christianity.
 
2013-01-19 09:09:01 PM
There's a long history of Christians expecting special treatment from the public schools. This thread springs immediately to mind.
 
2013-01-19 09:11:42 PM

Britney_Spears: and on a pro homo website no less

count on very bad things to happen to these schools. kick God out and suffer the consequences


I can't even tell what's a joke and what's a troll anymore.
 
2013-01-19 09:12:47 PM

SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


Except it does exactly that. Having strangers at my high school, even the board of education on a tour, turned the place into a madhouse; having strange adults there every day can't be doing any better. Plus, it's a safety risk to have adults showing up on a normal basis; not everyone who's part of a church is a good person.

/And seriously, their religion requires them to proselytize. I  think it's safe to assume they're violating the First by making it look like the school is promoting one religion. Just maybe. Since, y'know, they think God  wants them to do exactly that.
 
2013-01-19 09:13:45 PM

skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!


I do sleep sometimes.
And I'm sorry you're a gigantic dipshiat. :'(

Why can't we just have church at church, and school at school? I don't understand. I grew up going to church and my pastor/youth group leaders never wandered into my cafeteria to proselytize people that was what going to church was for. Of course I grew up in the ELCA and they don't think that jesus is coming back riding on a 6 headed dragon to burn teh gheys and jews with searing hellfire so there is that...

Also this

Raharu: Metaluna Mutant: [24.media.tumblr.com image 500x399]

THIS.


Also, THIS ^^^
 
2013-01-19 09:17:06 PM
SkinnyHead: If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

i186.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-19 09:17:17 PM

skullkrusher: If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns


If I thought for a moment that a visitor from the local mosque to child at the school would be treated the same way, I would agree with you. I am highly skeptical. Hiring a radical sectarian group to 'represent' your policy towards religious access to elementary schools students suggests that Constitutional concerns are a mere facade.
 
2013-01-19 09:17:36 PM

JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.


If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.
 
2013-01-19 09:21:05 PM

toomuchwhargarbl: JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.

If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.


It would have been called a "manifesto" and its writer's cabin would have been seized as evidence.
 
2013-01-19 09:21:44 PM
You christians are god damn nuts.

Yes, you too, dear reader. You belong to the same cult as these idiots. Deal with it.
 
2013-01-19 09:26:28 PM
Baruch atah adonai eloheinu melech haolam, sheh loh assani goy

/how i ended prayer in my public school in 1987
 
2013-01-19 09:28:54 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


If Berzerker Eric had a low rent cable channel in the upper 500s, I would still have cable.
 
2013-01-19 09:30:31 PM
Can we have some members of the Church of the Sub-Genius preach there?
 
2013-01-19 09:31:49 PM

PsiChick: SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

Except it does exactly that. Having strangers at my high school, even the board of education on a tour, turned the place into a madhouse; having strange adults there every day can't be doing any better. Plus, it's a safety risk to have adults showing up on a normal basis; not everyone who's part of a church is a good person.

/And seriously, their religion requires them to proselytize. I  think it's safe to assume they're violating the First by making it look like the school is promoting one religion. Just maybe. Since, y'know, they think God  wants them to do exactly that.


But the school authorities at this particular school did not determine that lunch hour visitation materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school.  That might be a justification if the school decided that visitation by pastors was disruptive.  But they didn't.

If some outside agitation group like FFRF wants to sue the school (assuming they can find a plaintiff), the FFRF will have to prove that the school policy is unconstitutional.  They will have a difficult time doing that, seeing as how the First Amendment prohibits the type of viewpoint discrimination that FFRF is advocating.  And it is not likely that a neutral visitation policy, that allows for religious and non-religious visitors alike, would be seen as endorsing religion.

And you cannot simply assume that the pastors invited to lunch time visitation engage in unwelcome proselytizing.  FFRF will have to prove it.
 
2013-01-19 09:36:39 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


And then Erik would sing the hymn:

"My love for you is ticking clock, berzerker. Would you like to suck my cock, berzerker."
 
2013-01-19 09:40:48 PM

SkinnyHead: But the school authorities at this particular school did not determine that lunch hour visitation materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school.  That might be a justification if the school decided that visitation by pastors was disruptive.  But they didn't.

If some outside agitation group like FFRF wants to sue the school (assuming they can find a plaintiff), the FFRF will have to prove that the school policy is unconstitutional.  They will have a difficult time doing that, seeing as how the First Amendment prohibits the type of viewpoint discrimination that FFRF is advocating.  And it is not likely that a neutral visitation policy, that allows for religious and non-religious visitors alike, would be seen as endorsing religion.

And you cannot simply assume that the pastors invited to lunch time visitation engage in unwelcome proselytizing.  FFRF will have to prove it.


Well, this is sort of your problem, champ. The admin can decide the sky is pink, but that doesn't  actually make the sky pink. That's why it's called an investigation. A  parent (not FFRF) complained, and thus the Board of Education, at least, has a duty to make sure admin isn't going off on its own.

And even if your policy isn't  meant to endorse something, if it does in practice and you don't correct it, you've just endorsed it.
 
2013-01-19 09:50:33 PM
I'm a satanist and I demand equal access so I can tell the kids about how to smite your enemies and bathe in their blood. These kids need to know that rape and pillage is okay!

/see why this is a bad idea?
 
2013-01-19 09:55:46 PM
OH LOOK ANOTHER BORING-ASS RELIGION THREAD.

LET'S LIVEN THINGS UP.

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

OHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHH
 
2013-01-19 10:06:53 PM
hickabillies
 
2013-01-19 10:07:49 PM

SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


Except you forgot one very, very important fact. This is about preaching, not a private meeting between A STUDENT and A PASTOR. This is materially infringing upon the beliefs and rights of other students who may hold other religious beliefs or none.

Not protected. In addition, this is a public and not a private school. Since it receives public funds it is either all or nothing. All religions, including Satanism and Islam, or none.
 
2013-01-19 10:12:24 PM

PsiChick: Well, this is sort of your problem, champ. The admin can decide the sky is pink, but that doesn't actually make the sky pink. That's why it's called an investigation. A parent (not FFRF) complained, and thus the Board of Education, at least, has a duty to make sure admin isn't going off on its own.

And even if your policy isn't meant to endorse something, if it does in practice and you don't correct it, you've just endorsed it.


It depends on who is suing the school district.  If a religious student is suing, claiming a First Amendment violation for denying religious visitation, the school can claim as a defense that the religious visitation was disallowed because it materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school, if that is the case.  The court will then review the reasonableness of that determination, giving deference to school authorities, who know best.

If someone is suing the district, claiming that the school is somehow violating their rights by allowing religious students to meet with their pastors at lunch hour, they can't claim that the religious student has no first amendment rights because their visitation disrupts the work of the school.  They have no standing to make that claim.  They have to show how they were injured by an Establishment Clause violation.

You are right to the extent that you assert that the determination is objective.  A reasonable objective observer would not think that private visits during lunch hour are an endorsement of religion.

Xetal: I'm a satanist and I demand equal access so I can tell the kids about how to smite your enemies and bathe in their blood. These kids need to know that rape and pillage is okay!

/see why this is a bad idea?


If a student at the school invites you to discuss Satanism during lunch hour, the student should have that right. Discuss anything you want.  But if your discussion is about advocating illegal behavior, then I think that would cross the line.
 
2013-01-19 10:12:41 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I do sleep sometimes.
And I'm sorry you're a gigantic dipshiat. :'(


I suppose that the chance you had to go to bed at the same time you made an ass of yourself is nonzero. As I told the other jackass, I think you think that because you don't quite get it.

Doktor_Zhivago: Why can't we just have church at church, and school at school? I don't understand. I grew up going to church and my pastor/youth group leaders never wandered into my cafeteria to proselytize people that was what going to church was for. Of course I grew up in the ELCA and they don't think that jesus is coming back riding on a 6 headed dragon to burn teh gheys and jews with searing hellfire so there is that...


that's nice. We can have that. You can have that. Others can have it how they like. As long as there's a policy that students can have friends visit them at school, those friends can be clergymembers. Deal with it. If they aren't preaching to you, you'll just have to be an adult and let other people be. Sorry.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:09 PM
There simply is no legitimate purpose for these child molesters to be permitted on campus. It's not a matter of "visiting a friend"- we send out a warning with convicted pedos move into a neighborhood and we have the right to forbid these religious types from touching kids at school.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:14 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Baruch atah adonai eloheinu melech haolam, sheh loh assani goy

/how i ended prayer in my public school in 1987


I went with Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn !!

Half the school went insane.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:43 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns

If I thought for a moment that a visitor from the local mosque to child at the school would be treated the same way, I would agree with you. I am highly skeptical. Hiring a radical sectarian group to 'represent' your policy towards religious access to elementary schools students suggests that Constitutional concerns are a mere facade.


see, if visitor from the mosque were treated differently, you should be outraged and I'd imagine you would be. Of course, this is not a reason that another person should receive poor treatment.
 
2013-01-19 10:22:13 PM

SkinnyHead: PsiChick: Well, this is sort of your problem, champ. The admin can decide the sky is pink, but that doesn't actually make the sky pink. That's why it's called an investigation. A parent (not FFRF) complained, and thus the Board of Education, at least, has a duty to make sure admin isn't going off on its own.

And even if your policy isn't meant to endorse something, if it does in practice and you don't correct it, you've just endorsed it.

It depends on who is suing the school district.  If a religious student is suing, claiming a First Amendment violation for denying religious visitation, the school can claim as a defense that the religious visitation was disallowed because it materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school, if that is the case.  The court will then review the reasonableness of that determination, giving deference to school authorities, who know best.

If someone is suing the district, claiming that the school is somehow violating their rights by allowing religious students to meet with their pastors at lunch hour, they can't claim that the religious student has no first amendment rights because their visitation disrupts the work of the school.  They have no standing to make that claim.  They have to show how they were injured by an Establishment Clause violation.

You are right to the extent that you assert that the determination is objective.  A reasonable objective observer would not think that private visits during lunch hour are an endorsement of religion.


Um...RTFA, it's the  parents claiming this is a violation of separation,  because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.
 
2013-01-19 10:23:23 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


Erik! well this week. maybe next week we can have the Cthulhu guy come in. wanna keep my options open.
It must be horrible to be as repressed as the christians are. Oh wait that's what they try do to non believers of their invisible sky wizard every day. I guess what I'm saying is they could use a bit more repression when it comes to public schools.
 
2013-01-19 10:33:53 PM

doyner: I graduated from Conway High School in 1992--when I was there, there was none of this horseshiat going on.  WTF has happened in the last 20+ years that has made this militant Christianity become malignant?


It isn't christianity per se, religion has always been a malignancy.
 
2013-01-19 10:35:05 PM

vudukungfu: hickabillies


If they're there to covertly peddle snakeoil, "shillbillies" might fit, too.
 
2013-01-19 10:38:47 PM
Maybe the teachers should show up at the church on Sunday for some impromptu lessons on evolution?
 
2013-01-19 10:39:02 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


You sure earn your money. It seems like you're in EVERY politics thread, and you put a little effort into this one, unlike the usual cut & paste derp. Hey man, is your company hiring? I'm pretty sure I could concern troll, spread false info, and derail threads, if the pay was right. What the hell, I'm not using my soul anyway.

/ No samples available upon request.
// If you're good at something, never do it for free.
/// You let me know when you start taking things a bit more seriously.
//// Here's my card.
 
2013-01-19 10:43:37 PM
The kids have barely enough time to get their lunch, gobble it down and chill a bit before going back to the classes that we, their parents, are paying for. I would rather they not be preached to by someone with less education than the kids themselves have.

Whoever let this happen is an unmitigated asshat, IMO.
 
2013-01-19 10:49:11 PM

PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.


"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.
 
2013-01-19 10:53:19 PM

skullkrusher: if visitor from the mosque were treated differently, you should be outraged and I'd imagine you would be. Of course, this is not a reason that another person should receive poor treatment.


I would hope you would be too. But that skirts the larger issue. Not allowing unrelated adults not associated with the school access to children during lunch period is NOT "poor treatment."  I suspect neither you nor would agree than unrelated adults with secular or political interests belong with those kids at lunchtime. Religious professionals should have to abide by the same rules as secular ones--they are not entitled to preferential treatment merely by being religious. Whether secular or religious, unrelated adults not employed by the school district really have no business in the public schools during school hours. Its an unnecessary security risk.
 
2013-01-19 10:55:54 PM

skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.


Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...
 
2013-01-19 10:56:11 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: if visitor from the mosque were treated differently, you should be outraged and I'd imagine you would be. Of course, this is not a reason that another person should receive poor treatment.

I would hope you would be too. But that skirts the larger issue. Not allowing unrelated adults not associated with the school access to children during lunch period is NOT "poor treatment."  I suspect neither you nor would agree than unrelated adults with secular or political interests belong with those kids at lunchtime. Religious professionals should have to abide by the same rules as secular ones--they are not entitled to preferential treatment merely by being religious. Whether secular or religious, unrelated adults not employed by the school district really have no business in the public schools during school hours. Its an unnecessary security risk.


if your issue is with the policy of allowing visitors during lunch, I agree. That's stupid. However, if that is the policy, you cannot bar people simply because they are a minister (or an imam, priest, priestess, whatever).
 
2013-01-19 10:56:32 PM

skullkrusher: "The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said." No parents complained.


If no one complains that I'm breaking the law, that doesn't mean I'm not breaking the law. You're smarter than that. Plus you are assuming the school officials are telling the truth. Again, they hired a radical sectarian movement to represent public policy. They have no credibility and should be regarded from this point on as suspicious.
 
2013-01-19 10:56:54 PM

PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...


I think the name of their organization says it all.
 
2013-01-19 10:56:54 PM

skullkrusher: As long as there's a policy that students can have friends visit them at school, those friends can be clergymembers


Yeah, those underaged peens aren't going to suck themselves.
 
2013-01-19 10:58:05 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: "The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said." No parents complained.

If no one complains that I'm breaking the law, that doesn't mean I'm not breaking the law. You're smarter than that. Plus you are assuming the school officials are telling the truth. Again, they hired a radical sectarian movement to represent public policy. They have no credibility and should be regarded from this point on as suspicious.


FFS dude, she said that parents complained. That was factually incorrect. I corrected her with a quote from TFA. I made no mention of whether parents or complained or not was material to the legality of the situation.
 
2013-01-19 10:58:15 PM

skullkrusher: However, if that is the policy, you cannot bar people simply because they are a minister (or an imam, priest, priestess, whatever).


Actually, they can and should depending on their behavior. You can't possibly think they let some vagrant off the street hang out with those kids, but by your logic they should make no such discrimination against anybody.
 
2013-01-19 11:00:18 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: However, if that is the policy, you cannot bar people simply because they are a minister (or an imam, priest, priestess, whatever).

Actually, they can and should depending on their behavior. You can't possibly think they let some vagrant off the street hang out with those kids, but by your logic they should make no such discrimination against anybody.


is intentionally not understanding posts a hobby of yours?
 
2013-01-19 11:03:23 PM

BronyMedic: SkinnyHead: If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

[i186.photobucket.com image 622x253]


ARE YOU NOT DAZZLED?!?
 
2013-01-19 11:03:51 PM
 

skullkrusher: FFS dude, she said that parents complained. That was factually incorrect. I corrected her with a quote from TFA.


i.imgur.com

And it looks like you were too quick to do that. The FFRF people say they've had complaints. Who should be believed? People from Madison Wisconsin working for a private foundation aren't using a crystal ball to figure out they want to contact people in Conway, AK.
 
2013-01-19 11:04:28 PM
Whether they should be allowed to visit or not, I never understood why people wanted to visit their boyfriends during school hours.
 
2013-01-19 11:07:23 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: FFS dude, she said that parents complained. That was factually incorrect. I corrected her with a quote from TFA.

[i.imgur.com image 607x433]

And it looks like you were too quick to do that. The FFRF people say they've had complaints. Who should be believed? People from Madison Wisconsin working for a private foundation aren't using a crystal ball to figure out they want to contact people in Conway, AK.


True.  Atheists don't use crystal balls.  We talk directly with Satan - no intermediary needed
 
2013-01-19 11:08:11 PM
Should be just parents/guardians and that is all.
 
2013-01-19 11:10:14 PM

skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.


Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.
 
2013-01-19 11:11:16 PM
You'd think they'd like this. After all Christians get orgasms when they're told "no".
 
2013-01-19 11:11:29 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: FFS dude, she said that parents complained. That was factually incorrect. I corrected her with a quote from TFA.

[i.imgur.com image 607x433]

And it looks like you were too quick to do that. The FFRF people say they've had complaints. Who should be believed? People from Madison Wisconsin working for a private foundation aren't using a crystal ball to figure out they want to contact people in Conway, AK.


on another matter. Keep tossing til something sticks I suppose
 
2013-01-19 11:12:09 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Somacandra: skullkrusher: FFS dude, she said that parents complained. That was factually incorrect. I corrected her with a quote from TFA.

[i.imgur.com image 607x433]

And it looks like you were too quick to do that. The FFRF people say they've had complaints. Who should be believed? People from Madison Wisconsin working for a private foundation aren't using a crystal ball to figure out they want to contact people in Conway, AK.

True.  Atheists don't use crystal balls.  We talk directly with Satan - no intermediary needed


By the way, what's the word on the 7th and 8th Circle intramural football league? Is Belial playing this week or not? I don't want to have to play with Azmodan as QB. That farker can't hit a receiver if he has to leave the pocket.
 
2013-01-19 11:12:15 PM

nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.


sure they are
 
2013-01-19 11:14:36 PM
Those poor christians. I hope they fare well.
 
2013-01-19 11:15:08 PM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


Visit one student then harass the rest? I'm not surprised you're ok with it.
 
2013-01-19 11:15:09 PM

Gyrfalcon: BronyMedic: SkinnyHead: If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

[i186.photobucket.com image 622x253]

ARE YOU NOT DAZZLED?!?


ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?
 
2013-01-19 11:22:22 PM

skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.

sure they are


Alternatively, they're an organization pushing for religion not to be sponsored, one way or another in the public sphere. Do you legitimately have an issue with that?
 
2013-01-19 11:27:25 PM

Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.


I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.
 
2013-01-19 11:30:07 PM

TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.


Letting visiters in seems like a bad idea since it could lead to a security breach.
 
2013-01-19 11:35:36 PM

nekulor: skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.

sure they are

Alternatively, they're an organization pushing for religion not to be sponsored, one way or another in the public sphere. Do you legitimately have an issue with that?


depends on how you define "sponsored". Does "sponsoring" include a public school having a visitor policy which allows friends and family to visit without preventing members of the clergy to visit students at their request?
 
2013-01-19 11:37:15 PM

Selena Luna: Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.

I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.


The measure of how much someone wants to tell you about their religious beliefs is usually inversely proportional to how much they will want to hear about yours.
 
2013-01-19 11:38:16 PM
The last time they let a guy come visit the school for no really good reason, it was Sandusky taking boys out on "dates".

\just sayin'
\\isn't cafeteria food bad enough without preachers coming in to add to the misery?
 
2013-01-19 11:39:05 PM
SkinnyHead et al.: derp

What would you say if it were a local mosque instead of a local church?
 
2013-01-19 11:43:59 PM

skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.

sure they are

Alternatively, they're an organization pushing for religion not to be sponsored, one way or another in the public sphere. Do you legitimately have an issue with that?

depends on how you define "sponsored". Does "sponsoring" include a public school having a visitor policy which allows friends and family to visit without preventing members of the clergy to visit students at their request?


Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?
 
2013-01-19 11:47:30 PM
Matthew 6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
 
2013-01-19 11:47:54 PM

Solon Isonomia: fusillade762: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"

Indeed. If this was ANY religion besides Christianity being allowed exclusive access to children during the school day people would FLIP THE F*CK OUT.

To steal from one of my favorite professors, a certain element of our population would like to pretend that Section 3 of Article VI of the Constitution doesn't exist.


If by "Section 3 of Article VI of the Constitution" you actually mean "any of the Constitution except when they're twisting it to force Christianity on people or fark over the poor/minorities," then your prof is spot on.
 
2013-01-19 11:52:20 PM

skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.

sure they are


I'm sure no PARENTS have complained about the visits.

Has anyone asked the kids what they think?
 
2013-01-19 11:53:11 PM

nekulor: Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?


asking for a clarification of what you meant with an an ambiguous term is not being "purposefully obtuse". Why do you think it is? Is it because you're really trying very hard to find a reason to disagree with me? Yeah, pretty sure that's it. One might say your reaction was purposefully obtuse.

No, proselytizing to the students in a public school is not acceptable. Holding a conversation with a student or group of students who invited you to join them to talk or pray or whatever? Weird to me, but also fine.

To recap: trying to get kids to join your church at school - bad. Meeting with a kid or group of kids because they wanted to speak or pray with you. Fine.
 
2013-01-19 11:53:39 PM
Some Imams should be able to share the stage, right?
 
2013-01-19 11:55:30 PM

Gyrfalcon: skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: PsiChick: skullkrusher: PsiChick: Um...RTFA, it's the parents claiming this is a violation of separation, because they claim the folks are proselytizing. So that's a nice hypothetical, but we aren't discussing that.

"The ministers all had parental consent to visit the schoolchildren, Murry said. No parent has complained about the visits either, he said."

No parents complained.

Hmm, you're right, I re-read and they don't mention how FFRF found out about this. It'd be nice to know more.

/Goddamn 'journalism'...

I think the name of their organization says it all.

Yes, it's an organization dedicated to protecting us from hyper-religious asshats.

sure they are

I'm sure no PARENTS have complained about the visits.

Has anyone asked the kids what they think?


no idea. Probably a conversation for the kids to have with their parents who sign the consent forms
 
2013-01-19 11:56:20 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: Some Imams should be able to share the stage, right?


that's different
/sometimes just gotta say what people wanna hear
 
2013-01-19 11:56:50 PM

skullkrusher: nekulor: Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?

asking for a clarification of what you meant with an an ambiguous term is not being "purposefully obtuse". Why do you think it is? Is it because you're really trying very hard to find a reason to disagree with me? Yeah, pretty sure that's it. One might say your reaction was purposefully obtuse.

No, proselytizing to the students in a public school is not acceptable. Holding a conversation with a student or group of students who invited you to join them to talk or pray or whatever? Weird to me, but also fine.

To recap: trying to get kids to join your church at school - bad. Meeting with a kid or group of kids because they wanted to speak or pray with you. Fine.


Huh. A legitimate and reasonable response from you. Sorry then. I'm so used to having to corner you with wording so you don't weasel your way out of the question that I seem to have jumped the gun on this one. Then we seem to be in agreement on this one.

/just apologized to skullcrusher.
//I feel dirty.
 
2013-01-19 11:59:30 PM
They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?
 
2013-01-20 12:03:18 AM
lindagailwestrich.ipage.com
 
2013-01-20 12:07:18 AM

nekulor: skullkrusher: nekulor: Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?

asking for a clarification of what you meant with an an ambiguous term is not being "purposefully obtuse". Why do you think it is? Is it because you're really trying very hard to find a reason to disagree with me? Yeah, pretty sure that's it. One might say your reaction was purposefully obtuse.

No, proselytizing to the students in a public school is not acceptable. Holding a conversation with a student or group of students who invited you to join them to talk or pray or whatever? Weird to me, but also fine.

To recap: trying to get kids to join your church at school - bad. Meeting with a kid or group of kids because they wanted to speak or pray with you. Fine.

Huh. A legitimate and reasonable response from you. Sorry then. I'm so used to having to corner you with wording so you don't weasel your way out of the question that I seem to have jumped the gun on this one. Then we seem to be in agreement on this one.

/just apologized to skullcrusher.
//I feel dirty.


if you have ever paid attention, my response should come as no surprise. See, assumptions and ambiguity are no way to have an honest conversation.
I answer direct, sincere questions as directly and sincerely as possible. Been arguing with you farks for too long, however, to not know that it is a waste of time giving you (generalized you, here) a dishonest route to take. Specific questions, specific answers. People often are upset that I am too literal in what I say - as if I am somehow causing them affront by not arguing what they really, really wish I were arguing. They are somehow upset that I was not implying what they really, really hoped I was implying because they had their stock "what about an imam" answer ready to go. Those people are morons and I have no interest in giving morons the slack to pretend I meant something other than I said.
 
2013-01-20 12:09:12 AM

vernonFL: [lindagailwestrich.ipage.com image 450x273]


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-20 12:11:32 AM

Paper-Pusher: There simply is no legitimate purpose for these child molesters to be permitted on campus. It's not a matter of "visiting a friend"- we send out a warning with convicted pedos move into a neighborhood and we have the right to forbid these religious types from touching kids at school.


To be fair I don't think these are Catholic priests.
 
2013-01-20 12:13:40 AM

vernonFL: [lindagailwestrich.ipage.com image 450x273]


I have never been able to understand why the Romans hated lions so much. I mean everyone knows that Christians are not very nutritious.
 
2013-01-20 12:15:55 AM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?


are you having a stroke?
 
2013-01-20 12:17:09 AM

Friar Cadfael: The kids have barely enough time to get their lunch, gobble it down and chill a bit before going back to the classes that we, their parents, are paying for. I would rather they not be preached to by someone with less education than the kids themselves have.

Whoever let this happen is an unmitigated asshat, IMO.


It's Arkansas. Take your pick.
 
2013-01-20 12:24:10 AM

orclover: My sophomore year of high school I lost all my friends to a church, what little I had in the way of friends, 3 boys and 2 girls. One girl convinced her boyfriend to go, he convinced 1 of the other guys then the other to go over the course of a month. I politely refused, not really grasping what was happening till it was too late. Five weeks after it had all started they all told me that they could hang out with me any more and see my soul damned, then they got a lot less polite about it. I was pretty much a pariah until my Junior year when I started hanging out with the stoners, who honestly couldn't given a fark if I was in church or not.

Probably should have just shot myself at the beginning of my freshman year and saved myself the 4 year headache.


In college I ran a table top gaming group. Mainly Battletech, but would occasionally run other through other games. Usually played most Friday and Saturday nights. I lost three of my regulars after they started attending a new church. See, the church had their own activities nights on Friday/Saturday to give "young people an alternative to drinking." And by "giving an alternative" I mean "they weren't allowed to do any socializing that wasn't done at the church."
 
2013-01-20 12:28:01 AM

Bucky Katt: Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?

are you having a stroke?


How is babby formed?
 
2013-01-20 12:30:05 AM

Bucky Katt: Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?

are you having a stroke?


Looks like ya missed a meme Link
 
2013-01-20 12:48:50 AM
i.usatoday.net

www.washingtonpost.com
 
2013-01-20 12:57:45 AM
Back to the bath-houses then.
 
2013-01-20 01:28:34 AM

toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.


I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes. I wonder what excuses you would have in that situation.
Don't worry about it, I'm sure you would have flailed around with some excuse.
 
2013-01-20 01:36:47 AM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


You know what? I'm a theist. I am a Buddhist, and I really don't want my daughter to be forced to listen to Christian sermons and proselytizing at school. She volunteers for a club? Drive on. She wants to check out someone's church on a Sunday, fine. That's her decision then.

If they were only visiting kids from their own church, then fine. That is an outreach program, and that's acceptable. Heck, checking up on kids at school, and offering support is even commendable. The visits are suspended until the staff could get a better handle on the policy, to make sure that they weren't violating any rules or regs.

The problem lies in the fact, that not everyone attends the same churches, some don't attend any, and some folks aren't even the same faith. The issue boils down to the fact that some folks want to share the good news about their own faith, that they forget, that not everyone is in a rush to change their own. Sort of reminds me of the very well intentioned pastor who asked a fella if he was born again, and was told, "No, I think I got it right the first time."

I suppose the question is: how would these folks feel if Buddhist monks wanted to come in to talk to kids about the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path on a continuing basis, or if Rabbis or Imams wanted to just check in on the kids. Or if a group of pagans wanted to just "rap" about Gaea. What if the Nichiren wanted to just hold informal chats?

Again: from what it sounds like, folks were doing essentially outreach visits to the school to kids from their own church, and so long as their folks were OK with it, I don't see much of a problem, but I can see staff wanting to cover their bases, just in case. Not because Christianity, or even this church are bad people, but because not all parents want their kids being preached to, at school, and the impression might be made that this is what was occurring, even if it wasn't, so suspending the visits until folks could check the policy with the needs and wishes of other parents, maybe not such a bad idea.
 
2013-01-20 01:37:02 AM

Kurmudgeon: I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes. I wonder what excuses you would have in that situation.
Don't worry about it, I'm sure you would have flailed around with some excuse.


Your assumption is that "Christ" would have been able to pull off the stuff the bible claims he did in modern society, with modern scientific investigation. In reality, I'm sure people like James Randi would have loved to put someone claiming to have his abilities to the test.
 
2013-01-20 02:10:51 AM

skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: nekulor: Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?

asking for a clarification of what you meant with an an ambiguous term is not being "purposefully obtuse". Why do you think it is? Is it because you're really trying very hard to find a reason to disagree with me? Yeah, pretty sure that's it. One might say your reaction was purposefully obtuse.

No, proselytizing to the students in a public school is not acceptable. Holding a conversation with a student or group of students who invited you to join them to talk or pray or whatever? Weird to me, but also fine.

To recap: trying to get kids to join your church at school - bad. Meeting with a kid or group of kids because they wanted to speak or pray with you. Fine.

Huh. A legitimate and reasonable response from you. Sorry then. I'm so used to having to corner you with wording so you don't weasel your way out of the question that I seem to have jumped the gun on this one. Then we seem to be in agreement on this one.

/just apologized to skullcrusher.
//I feel dirty.

if you have ever paid attention, my response should come as no surprise. See, assumptions and ambiguity are no way to have an honest conversation.
I answer direct, sincere questions as directly and sincerely as possible. Been arguing with you farks for too long, however, to not know that it is a waste of time giving you (generalized you, here) a dishonest route to take. Specific questions, specific answers. People often are upset that I am too literal in what I say - as if I am somehow causing them affront by not arguing what they really, really wish I were arguing. They are somehow upset that I was not implying what they r ...


I think you think we're far more combative towards you, at the base level, than we would be if we didn't think it was necessary to have a meaningful debate with you. Ignore the people that drop the "BUT WHAT ABOUT AN IMAM HURR DURR!!" BS, because they're the liberal equivalent of the Tea Party. They suck just as much, and they only make the points that corner someone in a debate because they can't actually discuss the issues. They just want to score points. If you want to discuss, discuss. This is the first thread in quite some time I've seen you not get all derpy in, and it's a refreshing change. More of this Skullkrusher, less of the derpy skullkrusher.
 
2013-01-20 02:27:23 AM
There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?
 
2013-01-20 02:31:30 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


Cue moral indignation and outrage because other people/brown people are also teaching their precious aryan children things.
 
2013-01-20 02:56:23 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


Let's compromise by kicking all their asses off the school grounds.
 
2013-01-20 03:25:22 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


But poking atheists with a sharp stick is so much more fun!
 
2013-01-20 03:36:30 AM

nekulor: Cue moral indignation and outrage because other people/brown people are also teaching their precious aryan children things.


Or cue a food fight between the religions. The Hindus would be force fed hamburgers, be outraged, then calm down when they realize there is no actual beef in them. The Muslims would get slapped with some bacon. It'd be good fun.

red5ish: Let's compromise by kicking all their asses off the school grounds.


I concur. School is supposed to be a safe haven for kids. They shouldn't have to be harassed. I love me some Jesus, but I wouldn't force feed it upon kids. That's a turnoff.
 
2013-01-20 06:43:56 AM
As long as other organizations are afforded the same opportunity to visit as mentors with youth members but not recruit, this I do not have a problem with. The key to this is being mentors rather than representatives of an organization. Preachers are not to proselytize to other students and are not to handle any church business with the member. Identical stipulations would exist for coaches, visiting members only, not recruiting into the league, and this is not for reminders of practice (solely, obviously a side remark would be allowed, as would mentioning an upcoming event) or to get paperwork filled out. Our schools need to allow the community in, but we are not an extension of other organizations.
 
2013-01-20 07:15:09 AM
Can we make the lunch hour in Arkansas schools comparable to preacher's row in 'The Life of Brian'?

If it is only acceptable religions to the schoolboard then public schools are the new prison.
 
2013-01-20 07:20:13 AM

Cataholic: red5ish: Here's an idea: Don't let any "visitors" on campus. Not family, not friends, not friends of Jesus, nobody but students, faculty, administrators and staff.
I don't understand how this "policy" of allowing "visitors" began in the first place. Shouldn't students be learning how to socialize with other kids at that age? Can't they just eat lunch?

Sort of like not having prom because you are afraid a same-sex couple might show up. We know how well that worked the last time.


You mean they cancelled the school prom so they wouldn't have to sell tickets to the same-sex couple, organized a private prom that was cancelled when the same-sex couple tried to buy tickets, then organized a fake prom that the same-sex couple was allowed to attend with a grand total of five other students while the entire rest of the student body attended a different, not-so-secret second private prom? Yeah, this is EXACTLY like that.
 
2013-01-20 07:32:25 AM

Kurmudgeon: toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.

I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes..


Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?
 
2013-01-20 07:59:25 AM
Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

That's pretty much a bad policy to begin with. That's how you get kids abducted, granting access to exactly the most likely people to abduct them.

I would kind of have expected this policy to die due to a crazy ex-wife denied custody or an angry grandparent making off with a snowflake, not the FFR foundation.
 
2013-01-20 08:34:23 AM

skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!


You're shouting at people you assume have left the thread? Wouldn't sock puppets be more satisfying?
 
2013-01-20 08:38:23 AM

Bucky Katt: TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.

Letting visiters in seems like a bad idea since it could lead to a security breach.


RIPLEY: And...our guest?

ASH: Yes well, as I was saying, I'm still collating, but it has a funny habit of shedding its cells and replacing them with silicon polysaccharides, making it a tough little son of a biatch.

RIPLEY: And you let it in.
 
2013-01-20 08:50:15 AM

Mayhem_2006: Kurmudgeon: toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.

I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes..

Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?


I'm totally non-religious. I think it's likely, but not provable, that some of the accounts of Jesus' life were written within that period. It's also at least as likely that the canonized gospels were altered/doctored to one degree or another after that time. Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written (i.e., copied, not necessarily composed) centuries later. AFAIK.

But I've said this stuff before here (Jesus probably existed, the gospels were probably drafted soon after his death) and been denounced as a liar/troll/moron by the Atheist Council of Heterodoxy.

Repeat: totally, 100% non-religious. Student of history and philosophy.
 
2013-01-20 08:52:51 AM

Mayhem_2006: Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?


Even better, which account of Jesus was not fictional allegory?
 
2013-01-20 09:21:47 AM
If you are a religious visitor to the school, and the students other than the one you are visiting know you are a religious visitor, you are doing it wrong. It means you are going beyond your individual counseling of a church member and are starting to proselytize the crowd. Kids are in a captive, government run setting at school and should not be proselytized to by anyone.
 
2013-01-20 10:22:34 AM

KWess: Selena Luna: Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.

I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.

The measure of how much someone wants to tell you about their religious beliefs is usually inversely proportional to how much they will want to hear about yours.


I wasn't just randomly telling people. I only brought it up when each individual asked me yet again to attend church with them. Which I suppose is what you're talking about, though at least my ideas have extensive historical and anthropological evidence and not just some holy book.
 
2013-01-20 10:42:21 AM
I personally believe that any person who is NOT on a very specific list of people who are allowed to visit the child should be told to fark off. I teach middle school. We worry about drugs getting into the school, kids in custody disputes, and even kids who have restraining orders against someone. The best way to prevent problems is to have the primary guardian provide a list of people who can contact the child (if the primary guardian is naming the other parent or guardian, a court order is needed).
 
2013-01-20 11:00:44 AM
You can pray whenever and wherever you want.

Jus stop being a dick about it. The world doesn't stop because you need a little alone time with your imaginary friend.
 
2013-01-20 11:20:56 AM

Lernaeus: You can pray whenever and wherever you want.

Jus stop being a dick about it. The world doesn't stop because you need a little alone time with your imaginary friend.


Religion is like having a penis. It's OK to have one. It's OK to be proud of it. But don't whip it out in a school or at a polling place. Some folks don't like it and we all have a right not to be bothered by it.
 
2013-01-20 11:52:46 AM

Selena Luna: KWess: Selena Luna: Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.

I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.

The measure of how much someone wants to tell you about their religious beliefs is usually inversely proportional to how much they will want to hear about yours.

I wasn't just randomly telling people. I only brought it up when each individual asked me yet again to attend church with them. Which I suppose is what you're talking about, though at least my ideas have extensive historical and anthropological evidence and not just some holy book.


Make no mistake, I'm on your side.
 
2013-01-20 12:29:41 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being a theist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


FTFY
 
2013-01-20 12:51:43 PM

Kibbler: skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!

You're shouting at people you assume have left the thread? Wouldn't sock puppets be more satisfying?


Nope. N/A.
 
2013-01-20 01:33:16 PM
I am waiting for Mr Callahan to begin screaming.
 
2013-01-20 01:36:29 PM
Sorry, wrong thread.

Must reprogram brain.
 
2013-01-20 02:46:01 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


"And tomorrow, Mistress Vavavoom will explain to us what 'Tantric Buddhism' is."
 
2013-01-20 04:03:54 PM

Kibbler: Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written centuries later.


I thought you said you were a student. There are no original manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies, and even Christian academics concede that the earliest copied books were written 4-8 decades after his death. That's being generous.

Again, I thought you said you were a student. You have immediate access to a library. This is not hard.

So, mr. "I'm not religious." Do you believe that any part of the bible is divinely inspired?
 
2013-01-20 04:27:14 PM

pciszek: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"

"And tomorrow, Mistress Vavavoom will explain to us what 'Tantric Buddhism' is."


Personally, I'd choose the Tantric Buddhism and Warrior Spirit presentations, then probably start following a combination religion. Tantric Paganism? Is that a thing?
 
2013-01-20 04:27:56 PM
SkinnyHead:
If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

Honestly, you would've had better luck employing a Bedazzler as a dildo and selling tickets as performance art.
 
2013-01-20 05:37:38 PM

nekulor: Personally, I'd choose the Tantric Buddhism and Warrior Spirit presentations, then probably start following a combination religion. Tantric Paganism? Is that a thing?


Saxon Violence?
 
2013-01-20 07:59:13 PM

crazyeddie: Kibbler: Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written centuries later.

I thought you said you were a student. There are no original manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies, and even Christian academics concede that the earliest copied books were written 4-8 decades after his death. That's being generous.

Again, I thought you said you were a student. You have immediate access to a library. This is not hard.

So, mr. "I'm not religious." Do you believe that any part of the bible is divinely inspired?



You beg the question a bit...are holy scriptures divinely inspired?

Well if we're willing to accept the premise of the existence of a deity, then we're perhaps left only to haggle over the meaning of 'divine inspiration.' And sure, the collection of books called the Bible meets your criteria, we're in business.

But I've stood in the Sistine Chapel and looked up - was Michelangelo divinely inspired? Was the architect of the Taj Mahal? Was Homer or Newton or Darwin? Maybe so.

That said, if you accept the notion of a divinely created universe, how can you claim that any of the meagre works of Man are worthy of the Being that created the natural world?

I don't know any of the answers to any of this...I don't even know if I accept the premise.
 
2013-01-20 08:58:04 PM
I have no problem with family members showing up to visit at lunch.

Unrelated youth pastors? Hell no. They're all a bunch of pervs.
 
2013-01-20 08:59:23 PM

Riche: I would be PISSED if I found out some God-bothers were harassing my little girl during lunch at school.


Ditto -of any variety.
 
2013-01-21 03:26:55 AM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


And you would be equally OK with a group of Muslims visiting the school, telling everyone to pray to Allah or be killed. After all, it is just a religious saying and they don't mean anything. Or have a group from NAMBLA with a bullhorn talking about porking boys, as long as they were friends with one of the students. Or one of the Indian sects that believe in promoting sex with animals.

Wow, you are open minded!

Or just pretty stupid.
 
2013-01-21 07:05:56 AM

rosebud_the_sled: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

And you would be equally OK with a group of Muslims visiting the school, telling everyone to pray to Allah or be killed. After all, it is just a religious saying and they don't mean anything. Or have a group from NAMBLA with a bullhorn talking about porking boys, as long as they were friends with one of the students. Or one of the Indian sects that believe in promoting sex with animals.

Wow, you are open minded!

Or just pretty stupid.


Ok, you're hitting too close to home for him by playing the NAMBLA card.
 
2013-01-21 10:25:21 AM
I dislike loud mouth dickbags no matter what side of aisle their on. I have taught my children long before high school that if you don't live for something you will settle for anything.
 
2013-01-21 04:30:38 PM

sleeper2995: if you don't live for something you will settle for anything.


I live for PEACE.
And quiet.
And I refuse to settle.
Which is why I'm happily single.
 
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