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(Log Cabin Democrat)   Christians are being persecuted in Arkansas again. Religious groups told they cannot preach during lunch at public schools any longer   (thecabin.net) divider line 249
    More: Asinine, Ayn Rand, religious denomination, Freedom From Religion Foundation, New Life Church, middle schools, elementary schools  
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3439 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jan 2013 at 6:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-20 12:11:32 AM

Paper-Pusher: There simply is no legitimate purpose for these child molesters to be permitted on campus. It's not a matter of "visiting a friend"- we send out a warning with convicted pedos move into a neighborhood and we have the right to forbid these religious types from touching kids at school.


To be fair I don't think these are Catholic priests.
 
2013-01-20 12:13:40 AM

vernonFL: [lindagailwestrich.ipage.com image 450x273]


I have never been able to understand why the Romans hated lions so much. I mean everyone knows that Christians are not very nutritious.
 
2013-01-20 12:15:55 AM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?


are you having a stroke?
 
2013-01-20 12:17:09 AM

Friar Cadfael: The kids have barely enough time to get their lunch, gobble it down and chill a bit before going back to the classes that we, their parents, are paying for. I would rather they not be preached to by someone with less education than the kids themselves have.

Whoever let this happen is an unmitigated asshat, IMO.


It's Arkansas. Take your pick.
 
2013-01-20 12:24:10 AM

orclover: My sophomore year of high school I lost all my friends to a church, what little I had in the way of friends, 3 boys and 2 girls. One girl convinced her boyfriend to go, he convinced 1 of the other guys then the other to go over the course of a month. I politely refused, not really grasping what was happening till it was too late. Five weeks after it had all started they all told me that they could hang out with me any more and see my soul damned, then they got a lot less polite about it. I was pretty much a pariah until my Junior year when I started hanging out with the stoners, who honestly couldn't given a fark if I was in church or not.

Probably should have just shot myself at the beginning of my freshman year and saved myself the 4 year headache.


In college I ran a table top gaming group. Mainly Battletech, but would occasionally run other through other games. Usually played most Friday and Saturday nights. I lost three of my regulars after they started attending a new church. See, the church had their own activities nights on Friday/Saturday to give "young people an alternative to drinking." And by "giving an alternative" I mean "they weren't allowed to do any socializing that wasn't done at the church."
 
2013-01-20 12:28:01 AM

Bucky Katt: Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?

are you having a stroke?


How is babby formed?
 
2013-01-20 12:30:05 AM

Bucky Katt: Summer Glau's Love Slave: They need to do way instain pastors who who bore thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?

are you having a stroke?


Looks like ya missed a meme Link
 
2013-01-20 12:48:50 AM
i.usatoday.net

www.washingtonpost.com
 
2013-01-20 12:57:45 AM
Back to the bath-houses then.
 
2013-01-20 01:28:34 AM

toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.


I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes. I wonder what excuses you would have in that situation.
Don't worry about it, I'm sure you would have flailed around with some excuse.
 
2013-01-20 01:36:47 AM

cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


You know what? I'm a theist. I am a Buddhist, and I really don't want my daughter to be forced to listen to Christian sermons and proselytizing at school. She volunteers for a club? Drive on. She wants to check out someone's church on a Sunday, fine. That's her decision then.

If they were only visiting kids from their own church, then fine. That is an outreach program, and that's acceptable. Heck, checking up on kids at school, and offering support is even commendable. The visits are suspended until the staff could get a better handle on the policy, to make sure that they weren't violating any rules or regs.

The problem lies in the fact, that not everyone attends the same churches, some don't attend any, and some folks aren't even the same faith. The issue boils down to the fact that some folks want to share the good news about their own faith, that they forget, that not everyone is in a rush to change their own. Sort of reminds me of the very well intentioned pastor who asked a fella if he was born again, and was told, "No, I think I got it right the first time."

I suppose the question is: how would these folks feel if Buddhist monks wanted to come in to talk to kids about the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path on a continuing basis, or if Rabbis or Imams wanted to just check in on the kids. Or if a group of pagans wanted to just "rap" about Gaea. What if the Nichiren wanted to just hold informal chats?

Again: from what it sounds like, folks were doing essentially outreach visits to the school to kids from their own church, and so long as their folks were OK with it, I don't see much of a problem, but I can see staff wanting to cover their bases, just in case. Not because Christianity, or even this church are bad people, but because not all parents want their kids being preached to, at school, and the impression might be made that this is what was occurring, even if it wasn't, so suspending the visits until folks could check the policy with the needs and wishes of other parents, maybe not such a bad idea.
 
2013-01-20 01:37:02 AM

Kurmudgeon: I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes. I wonder what excuses you would have in that situation.
Don't worry about it, I'm sure you would have flailed around with some excuse.


Your assumption is that "Christ" would have been able to pull off the stuff the bible claims he did in modern society, with modern scientific investigation. In reality, I'm sure people like James Randi would have loved to put someone claiming to have his abilities to the test.
 
2013-01-20 02:10:51 AM

skullkrusher: nekulor: skullkrusher: nekulor: Depends. Are they, as a poster originally from the area suggested upthread, openly prosthelytizing on school grounds by holding conversations with entire groups of students about religion? If it's just a friendly visit, fine. If it's the latter, then yes, that's "sponsoring".

Now, would you like to engage the issue, or continue being purposefully obtuse?

asking for a clarification of what you meant with an an ambiguous term is not being "purposefully obtuse". Why do you think it is? Is it because you're really trying very hard to find a reason to disagree with me? Yeah, pretty sure that's it. One might say your reaction was purposefully obtuse.

No, proselytizing to the students in a public school is not acceptable. Holding a conversation with a student or group of students who invited you to join them to talk or pray or whatever? Weird to me, but also fine.

To recap: trying to get kids to join your church at school - bad. Meeting with a kid or group of kids because they wanted to speak or pray with you. Fine.

Huh. A legitimate and reasonable response from you. Sorry then. I'm so used to having to corner you with wording so you don't weasel your way out of the question that I seem to have jumped the gun on this one. Then we seem to be in agreement on this one.

/just apologized to skullcrusher.
//I feel dirty.

if you have ever paid attention, my response should come as no surprise. See, assumptions and ambiguity are no way to have an honest conversation.
I answer direct, sincere questions as directly and sincerely as possible. Been arguing with you farks for too long, however, to not know that it is a waste of time giving you (generalized you, here) a dishonest route to take. Specific questions, specific answers. People often are upset that I am too literal in what I say - as if I am somehow causing them affront by not arguing what they really, really wish I were arguing. They are somehow upset that I was not implying what they r ...


I think you think we're far more combative towards you, at the base level, than we would be if we didn't think it was necessary to have a meaningful debate with you. Ignore the people that drop the "BUT WHAT ABOUT AN IMAM HURR DURR!!" BS, because they're the liberal equivalent of the Tea Party. They suck just as much, and they only make the points that corner someone in a debate because they can't actually discuss the issues. They just want to score points. If you want to discuss, discuss. This is the first thread in quite some time I've seen you not get all derpy in, and it's a refreshing change. More of this Skullkrusher, less of the derpy skullkrusher.
 
2013-01-20 02:27:23 AM
There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?
 
2013-01-20 02:31:30 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


Cue moral indignation and outrage because other people/brown people are also teaching their precious aryan children things.
 
2013-01-20 02:56:23 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


Let's compromise by kicking all their asses off the school grounds.
 
2013-01-20 03:25:22 AM

ParagonComplex: There should be a compromse. The Christians can visit, but so can the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, Mormons, and any other religion that wants to. Can't descriminate, right?


But poking atheists with a sharp stick is so much more fun!
 
2013-01-20 03:36:30 AM

nekulor: Cue moral indignation and outrage because other people/brown people are also teaching their precious aryan children things.


Or cue a food fight between the religions. The Hindus would be force fed hamburgers, be outraged, then calm down when they realize there is no actual beef in them. The Muslims would get slapped with some bacon. It'd be good fun.

red5ish: Let's compromise by kicking all their asses off the school grounds.


I concur. School is supposed to be a safe haven for kids. They shouldn't have to be harassed. I love me some Jesus, but I wouldn't force feed it upon kids. That's a turnoff.
 
2013-01-20 06:43:56 AM
As long as other organizations are afforded the same opportunity to visit as mentors with youth members but not recruit, this I do not have a problem with. The key to this is being mentors rather than representatives of an organization. Preachers are not to proselytize to other students and are not to handle any church business with the member. Identical stipulations would exist for coaches, visiting members only, not recruiting into the league, and this is not for reminders of practice (solely, obviously a side remark would be allowed, as would mentioning an upcoming event) or to get paperwork filled out. Our schools need to allow the community in, but we are not an extension of other organizations.
 
2013-01-20 07:15:09 AM
Can we make the lunch hour in Arkansas schools comparable to preacher's row in 'The Life of Brian'?

If it is only acceptable religions to the schoolboard then public schools are the new prison.
 
2013-01-20 07:20:13 AM

Cataholic: red5ish: Here's an idea: Don't let any "visitors" on campus. Not family, not friends, not friends of Jesus, nobody but students, faculty, administrators and staff.
I don't understand how this "policy" of allowing "visitors" began in the first place. Shouldn't students be learning how to socialize with other kids at that age? Can't they just eat lunch?

Sort of like not having prom because you are afraid a same-sex couple might show up. We know how well that worked the last time.


You mean they cancelled the school prom so they wouldn't have to sell tickets to the same-sex couple, organized a private prom that was cancelled when the same-sex couple tried to buy tickets, then organized a fake prom that the same-sex couple was allowed to attend with a grand total of five other students while the entire rest of the student body attended a different, not-so-secret second private prom? Yeah, this is EXACTLY like that.
 
2013-01-20 07:32:25 AM

Kurmudgeon: toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.

I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes..


Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?
 
2013-01-20 07:59:25 AM
Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

That's pretty much a bad policy to begin with. That's how you get kids abducted, granting access to exactly the most likely people to abduct them.

I would kind of have expected this policy to die due to a crazy ex-wife denied custody or an angry grandparent making off with a snowflake, not the FFR foundation.
 
2013-01-20 08:34:23 AM

skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!


You're shouting at people you assume have left the thread? Wouldn't sock puppets be more satisfying?
 
2013-01-20 08:38:23 AM

Bucky Katt: TommyymmoT: Who gets "visitors" at school? It's not like you're in a jail, or hospital.
I don't recall anyone ever having someone stop by and say hi when I was in school.

Letting visiters in seems like a bad idea since it could lead to a security breach.


RIPLEY: And...our guest?

ASH: Yes well, as I was saying, I'm still collating, but it has a funny habit of shedding its cells and replacing them with silicon polysaccharides, making it a tough little son of a biatch.

RIPLEY: And you let it in.
 
2013-01-20 08:50:15 AM

Mayhem_2006: Kurmudgeon: toomuchwhargarbl: If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.

I see that you don't understand that there was more than one book in The Bible.
However, that would mean Christ would have been crucified and resurrected within your lifetime, or at least your parents and grand parents lifetimes..

Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?


I'm totally non-religious. I think it's likely, but not provable, that some of the accounts of Jesus' life were written within that period. It's also at least as likely that the canonized gospels were altered/doctored to one degree or another after that time. Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written (i.e., copied, not necessarily composed) centuries later. AFAIK.

But I've said this stuff before here (Jesus probably existed, the gospels were probably drafted soon after his death) and been denounced as a liar/troll/moron by the Atheist Council of Heterodoxy.

Repeat: totally, 100% non-religious. Student of history and philosophy.
 
2013-01-20 08:52:51 AM

Mayhem_2006: Really? Which account of Jesus' life and death do you claim was written within a generation or two of his life?


Even better, which account of Jesus was not fictional allegory?
 
2013-01-20 09:21:47 AM
If you are a religious visitor to the school, and the students other than the one you are visiting know you are a religious visitor, you are doing it wrong. It means you are going beyond your individual counseling of a church member and are starting to proselytize the crowd. Kids are in a captive, government run setting at school and should not be proselytized to by anyone.
 
2013-01-20 10:22:34 AM

KWess: Selena Luna: Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.

I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.

The measure of how much someone wants to tell you about their religious beliefs is usually inversely proportional to how much they will want to hear about yours.


I wasn't just randomly telling people. I only brought it up when each individual asked me yet again to attend church with them. Which I suppose is what you're talking about, though at least my ideas have extensive historical and anthropological evidence and not just some holy book.
 
2013-01-20 10:42:21 AM
I personally believe that any person who is NOT on a very specific list of people who are allowed to visit the child should be told to fark off. I teach middle school. We worry about drugs getting into the school, kids in custody disputes, and even kids who have restraining orders against someone. The best way to prevent problems is to have the primary guardian provide a list of people who can contact the child (if the primary guardian is naming the other parent or guardian, a court order is needed).
 
2013-01-20 11:00:44 AM
You can pray whenever and wherever you want.

Jus stop being a dick about it. The world doesn't stop because you need a little alone time with your imaginary friend.
 
2013-01-20 11:20:56 AM

Lernaeus: You can pray whenever and wherever you want.

Jus stop being a dick about it. The world doesn't stop because you need a little alone time with your imaginary friend.


Religion is like having a penis. It's OK to have one. It's OK to be proud of it. But don't whip it out in a school or at a polling place. Some folks don't like it and we all have a right not to be bothered by it.
 
2013-01-20 11:52:46 AM

Selena Luna: KWess: Selena Luna: Urbn: Actually, it would be funny if someone went to the school and followed every scripture these preachers tell with the older folk tales/myths that the Christians borrowed from or transformed to create that scripture.

I tried that with a Christian (my sister, who converted to Unitarianism). She tried to get into an argument with me and when I told her that I had sources backing me up, she accused me of never letting her be right. I tried it with one of my friends in high school and they told me I was going to hell. It doesn't seem to work well.

The measure of how much someone wants to tell you about their religious beliefs is usually inversely proportional to how much they will want to hear about yours.

I wasn't just randomly telling people. I only brought it up when each individual asked me yet again to attend church with them. Which I suppose is what you're talking about, though at least my ideas have extensive historical and anthropological evidence and not just some holy book.


Make no mistake, I'm on your side.
 
2013-01-20 12:29:41 PM

cchris_39: Why is it that being a theist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?


FTFY
 
2013-01-20 12:51:43 PM

Kibbler: skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!

You're shouting at people you assume have left the thread? Wouldn't sock puppets be more satisfying?


Nope. N/A.
 
2013-01-20 01:33:16 PM
I am waiting for Mr Callahan to begin screaming.
 
2013-01-20 01:36:29 PM
Sorry, wrong thread.

Must reprogram brain.
 
2013-01-20 02:46:01 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


"And tomorrow, Mistress Vavavoom will explain to us what 'Tantric Buddhism' is."
 
2013-01-20 04:03:54 PM

Kibbler: Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written centuries later.


I thought you said you were a student. There are no original manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies, and even Christian academics concede that the earliest copied books were written 4-8 decades after his death. That's being generous.

Again, I thought you said you were a student. You have immediate access to a library. This is not hard.

So, mr. "I'm not religious." Do you believe that any part of the bible is divinely inspired?
 
2013-01-20 04:27:14 PM

pciszek: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"

"And tomorrow, Mistress Vavavoom will explain to us what 'Tantric Buddhism' is."


Personally, I'd choose the Tantric Buddhism and Warrior Spirit presentations, then probably start following a combination religion. Tantric Paganism? Is that a thing?
 
2013-01-20 04:27:56 PM
SkinnyHead:
If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

Honestly, you would've had better luck employing a Bedazzler as a dildo and selling tickets as performance art.
 
2013-01-20 05:37:38 PM

nekulor: Personally, I'd choose the Tantric Buddhism and Warrior Spirit presentations, then probably start following a combination religion. Tantric Paganism? Is that a thing?


Saxon Violence?
 
2013-01-20 07:59:13 PM

crazyeddie: Kibbler: Surviving manuscripts have significant differences, and they were all written centuries later.

I thought you said you were a student. There are no original manuscripts, only copies of copies of copies, and even Christian academics concede that the earliest copied books were written 4-8 decades after his death. That's being generous.

Again, I thought you said you were a student. You have immediate access to a library. This is not hard.

So, mr. "I'm not religious." Do you believe that any part of the bible is divinely inspired?



You beg the question a bit...are holy scriptures divinely inspired?

Well if we're willing to accept the premise of the existence of a deity, then we're perhaps left only to haggle over the meaning of 'divine inspiration.' And sure, the collection of books called the Bible meets your criteria, we're in business.

But I've stood in the Sistine Chapel and looked up - was Michelangelo divinely inspired? Was the architect of the Taj Mahal? Was Homer or Newton or Darwin? Maybe so.

That said, if you accept the notion of a divinely created universe, how can you claim that any of the meagre works of Man are worthy of the Being that created the natural world?

I don't know any of the answers to any of this...I don't even know if I accept the premise.
 
2013-01-20 08:58:04 PM
I have no problem with family members showing up to visit at lunch.

Unrelated youth pastors? Hell no. They're all a bunch of pervs.
 
2013-01-20 08:59:23 PM

Riche: I would be PISSED if I found out some God-bothers were harassing my little girl during lunch at school.


Ditto -of any variety.
 
2013-01-21 03:26:55 AM

SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.


And you would be equally OK with a group of Muslims visiting the school, telling everyone to pray to Allah or be killed. After all, it is just a religious saying and they don't mean anything. Or have a group from NAMBLA with a bullhorn talking about porking boys, as long as they were friends with one of the students. Or one of the Indian sects that believe in promoting sex with animals.

Wow, you are open minded!

Or just pretty stupid.
 
2013-01-21 07:05:56 AM

rosebud_the_sled: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

And you would be equally OK with a group of Muslims visiting the school, telling everyone to pray to Allah or be killed. After all, it is just a religious saying and they don't mean anything. Or have a group from NAMBLA with a bullhorn talking about porking boys, as long as they were friends with one of the students. Or one of the Indian sects that believe in promoting sex with animals.

Wow, you are open minded!

Or just pretty stupid.


Ok, you're hitting too close to home for him by playing the NAMBLA card.
 
2013-01-21 10:25:21 AM
I dislike loud mouth dickbags no matter what side of aisle their on. I have taught my children long before high school that if you don't live for something you will settle for anything.
 
2013-01-21 04:30:38 PM

sleeper2995: if you don't live for something you will settle for anything.


I live for PEACE.
And quiet.
And I refuse to settle.
Which is why I'm happily single.
 
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