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(Log Cabin Democrat)   Christians are being persecuted in Arkansas again. Religious groups told they cannot preach during lunch at public schools any longer   (thecabin.net) divider line 249
    More: Asinine, Ayn Rand, religious denomination, Freedom From Religion Foundation, New Life Church, middle schools, elementary schools  
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3435 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jan 2013 at 6:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-19 08:25:16 PM

SkinnyHead: I'm not advocating an expansion of constitutional protection.  I am applying existing constitutional doctrine to the facts stated in the article.  The school has created a limited public forum by allowing visitors during lunch hour.  The school cannot deny some visitors and students the opportunity to participate in lunch hour visitation based on viewpoint discrimination.  The burden should be on the school district to articulate a legitimate reason.  FFRF has not suggested a legitimate reason.


Inaccurate summation of the facts as presented and, again, an incomplete analysis. You didn't articulate how the visitation policy (which merely discusses visitation, not events) equates a policy allowing student organizations to utilize school grounds to hold meetings - every legal argument has a logical leap, but you need to fill that gap as much as you can before making said leap. Without the limited public forum being solidly established, the burden is extremely low on the school (and the FFRF has no burden at all).

If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

I'm not dazzled yet. You're trying to use authority properly, I'll give you that - many of the high school students I teach this stuff to on a volunteer basis don't get that far.
 
2013-01-19 08:28:24 PM

HairBolus: TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:

The public school district has turned over the handling of the issue to the Liberty Foundation, a right wing Christian group.:"Liberty Institute will also be speak for the district on this issue from now on, Murry and Mateer said. Murry referred questions to Liberty Institute when asked how he decided to hire the group."

So Conway Public Schools outsources their policy decision to a right wing religious group.


That's... incredibly short-sighted of the district, not to mention the article might be exaggerating on the the degree of control Liberty Institute has in the district.
 
2013-01-19 08:28:43 PM
Life in Fartbongo's Fartmerica: I can't indoctrinate children into my cannibalistic death cult on school property during school hours. FREEDOM IS OVER.
 
2013-01-19 08:29:51 PM
Another end run around the establishment clause getting smacked down it seems.
 
2013-01-19 08:30:14 PM

ScaryBottles: Irrelevant period. Whatever this individual's intentions or motives are it is a privilege that can be exploited too easily. Furthermore once you allow it for one it is very difficult to say no to another. Let us say for the sake of this discussion he is benignly visiting these children, I don't know maybe he just really likes the hot dog cart across the street and just drops in out of sheer boredom. I have nothing against that but like I said once allowed that might encourage others to do the same and how can we be certain of their reasons for visiting. That is of course the best case scenario and as you pointed out we don't have all the facts its just as likely this guy has set up his own little ministry in the lunchroom


see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.

ScaryBottles: I know you're a troll and a kinda bad one if you ask me, you come off as too dumb. A true believer would had scored himself some quality talking points from Rush or Beck at least before provoking us libs.


2012-11-27

Right... if you think I am dumb, it's because you're too dumb to understand.
 
2013-01-19 08:36:10 PM
I graduated from Conway High School in 1992--when I was there, there was none of this horseshiat going on.  WTF has happened in the last 20+ years that has made this militant Christianity become malignant?
 
2013-01-19 08:38:43 PM

skullkrusher: see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.


You need to get past the limits on constitutional protections given to students when in school. Things work differently for minors in that environment. And you still need to address the interplay between the multiple rights found within the First Amendment, eh? But, generally speaking, you present the question in a way that should be considered.
 
2013-01-19 08:38:53 PM
God stopped the sun at Jericho, but He can't be bothered to rain down fury on this bullshiat.

Christians, you might want to rethink your path. Just sayin'.
 
2013-01-19 08:40:41 PM

cchris_39: gameshowhost: cchris_39: Why is it that being atheist requires you to be a whiny litigious obnoxious asshole?

Because equal and opposite reaction.

Lol you got that right. "YIkes it's Jesus, somebody call a lawyer!:

/pussies


YOU MISREPRESENT MY WITTY COMMENT, SIR
 
2013-01-19 08:41:46 PM
Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people
 
2013-01-19 08:42:56 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people


Are you a product of the Mayflower schools?  Please don't tell me you're from Vilonia.
 
2013-01-19 08:43:07 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: Went to school about 10 min away from conway and we had this same thing go on

I always forget how strange that is until I look at it from someone else's perspective. We had open prayer in science classes, and evolution was mostly a joke.

Probably for the best that it ended, but the pastors did bring pizza with them and it was pretty easy to steal it when they were busy lecturing people


How were they lecturing? In a corner quietly? In a room? Loudly in a large cafeteria?
 
2013-01-19 08:44:50 PM
media.tumblr.com

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom
 
2013-01-19 08:47:34 PM
went to vilonia schools up until junior high, then I moved

as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.
 
2013-01-19 08:50:20 PM

GWSuperfan: Spanky_McFarksalot: now now, I'm sure the parents and school would have no problem if muslims came to the school to preach.

right?

Hare Krishnas would be even better.


Nation of Islam for the LULZ
 
2013-01-19 08:50:29 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.


Yeah, that starts to become a problem even under  Milford's circumstances.
 
2013-01-19 08:52:02 PM

Hip_and_Edgy: went to vilonia schools up until junior high, then I moved

as for how they did their thing- it was not subtle. They entered after everyone was seated and went to the center tables. Would talk with like, one foot on the bench and standing, somewhat loudly, waving and introducing themselves to everyone.


When was this?  Like I said, 20+ years ago it wasn't so bad in Conway.  Granted, then  "Coach" Clements was one of several "teachers" that slipped little evangelical messages in in class.  Otherwise it was pretty quiet.  I thought Conway was pretty progressive (relatively) back then.
 
2013-01-19 08:57:58 PM

HairBolus: TFA doesn't mention the latest developments:


I have a feeling a Federal court will not look kindly on this. Its possible they could draft a constitutional policy that the FFRF  and local officials could both be happy with but I doubt it. You would think they would be better off working with the U.S. Department of Education and the Center for Public Education on this one rather than an openly sectarian religious organization.
 
2013-01-19 08:57:59 PM

phaseolus: Kittypie070: Coco LaFemme 2013-01-19 05:02:47 PM

Those poor, poor persecuted Christians. I just don't know how they make it through their endless days of sadness and misery.


Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

Book of Precious Persecutions,
Chapter 1, verses 1-4



Okay --

[HeeHawGirls.jpg]

Which one are you?


I'm this one.

calitreview.com
 
2013-01-19 08:58:08 PM

FlashHarry: SkinnyHead: A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

i would agree with this. however, when i was in high school, i remember campus crusade for christ (or whatever) sitting down at our lunch tables uninvited and proselytizing. one guy even told me i was going to hell. now that's bullshiat. of course, this was 1987, so hopefully that sort of god-bullying doesn't still go on in public schools.


They prefer romping about state colleges now and handing out bibles. There is a guy that hits all the Cal State schools wearing billboards. He stands in front of the library and yells at all of us that we are going to hell. We generally ignore him, laugh at him, or take pictures and make memes.
 
2013-01-19 09:00:32 PM
Kelly Shackelford of the Liberty Institute (representing the school district) seems to have a thing for Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council AKA a hate group.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/kelly-shackelford
 
2013-01-19 09:02:19 PM

Solon Isonomia: skullkrusher: see, the school has a policy of allowing friends and family to visit. To turn around and say that that "friend" cannot be a student's minister is the violation of the first amendment. Not what you think might be possibly happening.

You need to get past the limits on constitutional protections given to students when in school. Things work differently for minors in that environment. And you still need to address the interplay between the multiple rights found within the First Amendment, eh? But, generally speaking, you present the question in a way that should be considered.


this is all assuming that the minister is not preaching to the room. If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns
 
2013-01-19 09:03:10 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom


wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!
 
2013-01-19 09:05:50 PM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-19 09:06:38 PM
 
2013-01-19 09:08:45 PM
Histrionic Christianity.
 
2013-01-19 09:09:01 PM
There's a long history of Christians expecting special treatment from the public schools. This thread springs immediately to mind.
 
2013-01-19 09:11:42 PM

Britney_Spears: and on a pro homo website no less

count on very bad things to happen to these schools. kick God out and suffer the consequences


I can't even tell what's a joke and what's a troll anymore.
 
2013-01-19 09:12:47 PM

SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


Except it does exactly that. Having strangers at my high school, even the board of education on a tour, turned the place into a madhouse; having strange adults there every day can't be doing any better. Plus, it's a safety risk to have adults showing up on a normal basis; not everyone who's part of a church is a good person.

/And seriously, their religion requires them to proselytize. I  think it's safe to assume they're violating the First by making it look like the school is promoting one religion. Just maybe. Since, y'know, they think God  wants them to do exactly that.
 
2013-01-19 09:13:45 PM

skullkrusher: Doktor_Zhivago: [media.tumblr.com image 480x552]

Skinnyhead and skulltard in the same thread, time to leave....

/The Arkansas Christians are not going to fark you for "standing up for them".
//Well actually they might if you go to the right rest area bathroom

wow, you sure hightailed it out of the thread last night pretty fast. Not even a word of apology either. You are lowclass and dim. Congrats!


I do sleep sometimes.
And I'm sorry you're a gigantic dipshiat. :'(

Why can't we just have church at church, and school at school? I don't understand. I grew up going to church and my pastor/youth group leaders never wandered into my cafeteria to proselytize people that was what going to church was for. Of course I grew up in the ELCA and they don't think that jesus is coming back riding on a 6 headed dragon to burn teh gheys and jews with searing hellfire so there is that...

Also this

Raharu: Metaluna Mutant: [24.media.tumblr.com image 500x399]

THIS.


Also, THIS ^^^
 
2013-01-19 09:17:06 PM
SkinnyHead: If I put any more time into it, I'll have to start billing the school district.  I've done enough to accomplish my purpose, which was to dazzle Farkers with my mastery of the law.

i186.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-19 09:17:17 PM

skullkrusher: If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns


If I thought for a moment that a visitor from the local mosque to child at the school would be treated the same way, I would agree with you. I am highly skeptical. Hiring a radical sectarian group to 'represent' your policy towards religious access to elementary schools students suggests that Constitutional concerns are a mere facade.
 
2013-01-19 09:17:36 PM

JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.


If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.
 
2013-01-19 09:21:05 PM

toomuchwhargarbl: JohnnyC: Apparently Christianity isn't compelling enough on its own unless Christians can constantly hammer the young and impressionable with their religious views.

If the bible had been published 6 months ago, it would have been chucked into the trash and only marginally remembered as the work of a lunatic.


It would have been called a "manifesto" and its writer's cabin would have been seized as evidence.
 
2013-01-19 09:21:44 PM
You christians are god damn nuts.

Yes, you too, dear reader. You belong to the same cult as these idiots. Deal with it.
 
2013-01-19 09:26:28 PM
Baruch atah adonai eloheinu melech haolam, sheh loh assani goy

/how i ended prayer in my public school in 1987
 
2013-01-19 09:28:54 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


If Berzerker Eric had a low rent cable channel in the upper 500s, I would still have cable.
 
2013-01-19 09:30:31 PM
Can we have some members of the Church of the Sub-Genius preach there?
 
2013-01-19 09:31:49 PM

PsiChick: SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.

Except it does exactly that. Having strangers at my high school, even the board of education on a tour, turned the place into a madhouse; having strange adults there every day can't be doing any better. Plus, it's a safety risk to have adults showing up on a normal basis; not everyone who's part of a church is a good person.

/And seriously, their religion requires them to proselytize. I  think it's safe to assume they're violating the First by making it look like the school is promoting one religion. Just maybe. Since, y'know, they think God  wants them to do exactly that.


But the school authorities at this particular school did not determine that lunch hour visitation materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school.  That might be a justification if the school decided that visitation by pastors was disruptive.  But they didn't.

If some outside agitation group like FFRF wants to sue the school (assuming they can find a plaintiff), the FFRF will have to prove that the school policy is unconstitutional.  They will have a difficult time doing that, seeing as how the First Amendment prohibits the type of viewpoint discrimination that FFRF is advocating.  And it is not likely that a neutral visitation policy, that allows for religious and non-religious visitors alike, would be seen as endorsing religion.

And you cannot simply assume that the pastors invited to lunch time visitation engage in unwelcome proselytizing.  FFRF will have to prove it.
 
2013-01-19 09:36:39 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Bring in some Pantheistic believers and let the kids decide for themselves.

"Alright kids, would you like to listen to Pastor Mark talk about Jesus or Berzerker Erik talk about channeling the warrior spirit of the gods?"


And then Erik would sing the hymn:

"My love for you is ticking clock, berzerker. Would you like to suck my cock, berzerker."
 
2013-01-19 09:40:48 PM

SkinnyHead: But the school authorities at this particular school did not determine that lunch hour visitation materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school.  That might be a justification if the school decided that visitation by pastors was disruptive.  But they didn't.

If some outside agitation group like FFRF wants to sue the school (assuming they can find a plaintiff), the FFRF will have to prove that the school policy is unconstitutional.  They will have a difficult time doing that, seeing as how the First Amendment prohibits the type of viewpoint discrimination that FFRF is advocating.  And it is not likely that a neutral visitation policy, that allows for religious and non-religious visitors alike, would be seen as endorsing religion.

And you cannot simply assume that the pastors invited to lunch time visitation engage in unwelcome proselytizing.  FFRF will have to prove it.


Well, this is sort of your problem, champ. The admin can decide the sky is pink, but that doesn't  actually make the sky pink. That's why it's called an investigation. A  parent (not FFRF) complained, and thus the Board of Education, at least, has a duty to make sure admin isn't going off on its own.

And even if your policy isn't  meant to endorse something, if it does in practice and you don't correct it, you've just endorsed it.
 
2013-01-19 09:50:33 PM
I'm a satanist and I demand equal access so I can tell the kids about how to smite your enemies and bathe in their blood. These kids need to know that rape and pillage is okay!

/see why this is a bad idea?
 
2013-01-19 09:55:46 PM
OH LOOK ANOTHER BORING-ASS RELIGION THREAD.

LET'S LIVEN THINGS UP.

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

OHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHH
 
2013-01-19 10:06:53 PM
hickabillies
 
2013-01-19 10:07:49 PM

SkinnyHead: Solon Isonomia: SkinnyHead: Under current school visitation policy, friends and family can come visit children at lunch.

By allowing students to receive visitors during their lunch hour, the school has created a limited public forum.  It would violate the 1st and 14th Amendments to deny visitation by a friend, just because it's a friend from church.  And it would be unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to deny visits, just because religious matters are discussed during those visits.  That's the way I see it, anyways.

Minor children in a school environment do not enjoy the same level of constitutional protections as adults do.

That's true.  But free speech rights of students can be curtailed only if the speech materially and substantially disrupts the work and discipline of the school.  A private meeting at lunchtime between a student and a friend from church to discuss religious matters does not materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.


Except you forgot one very, very important fact. This is about preaching, not a private meeting between A STUDENT and A PASTOR. This is materially infringing upon the beliefs and rights of other students who may hold other religious beliefs or none.

Not protected. In addition, this is a public and not a private school. Since it receives public funds it is either all or nothing. All religions, including Satanism and Islam, or none.
 
2013-01-19 10:12:24 PM

PsiChick: Well, this is sort of your problem, champ. The admin can decide the sky is pink, but that doesn't actually make the sky pink. That's why it's called an investigation. A parent (not FFRF) complained, and thus the Board of Education, at least, has a duty to make sure admin isn't going off on its own.

And even if your policy isn't meant to endorse something, if it does in practice and you don't correct it, you've just endorsed it.


It depends on who is suing the school district.  If a religious student is suing, claiming a First Amendment violation for denying religious visitation, the school can claim as a defense that the religious visitation was disallowed because it materially and substantially disrupts the work of the school, if that is the case.  The court will then review the reasonableness of that determination, giving deference to school authorities, who know best.

If someone is suing the district, claiming that the school is somehow violating their rights by allowing religious students to meet with their pastors at lunch hour, they can't claim that the religious student has no first amendment rights because their visitation disrupts the work of the school.  They have no standing to make that claim.  They have to show how they were injured by an Establishment Clause violation.

You are right to the extent that you assert that the determination is objective.  A reasonable objective observer would not think that private visits during lunch hour are an endorsement of religion.

Xetal: I'm a satanist and I demand equal access so I can tell the kids about how to smite your enemies and bathe in their blood. These kids need to know that rape and pillage is okay!

/see why this is a bad idea?


If a student at the school invites you to discuss Satanism during lunch hour, the student should have that right. Discuss anything you want.  But if your discussion is about advocating illegal behavior, then I think that would cross the line.
 
2013-01-19 10:12:41 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I do sleep sometimes.
And I'm sorry you're a gigantic dipshiat. :'(


I suppose that the chance you had to go to bed at the same time you made an ass of yourself is nonzero. As I told the other jackass, I think you think that because you don't quite get it.

Doktor_Zhivago: Why can't we just have church at church, and school at school? I don't understand. I grew up going to church and my pastor/youth group leaders never wandered into my cafeteria to proselytize people that was what going to church was for. Of course I grew up in the ELCA and they don't think that jesus is coming back riding on a 6 headed dragon to burn teh gheys and jews with searing hellfire so there is that...


that's nice. We can have that. You can have that. Others can have it how they like. As long as there's a policy that students can have friends visit them at school, those friends can be clergymembers. Deal with it. If they aren't preaching to you, you'll just have to be an adult and let other people be. Sorry.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:09 PM
There simply is no legitimate purpose for these child molesters to be permitted on campus. It's not a matter of "visiting a friend"- we send out a warning with convicted pedos move into a neighborhood and we have the right to forbid these religious types from touching kids at school.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:14 PM

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Baruch atah adonai eloheinu melech haolam, sheh loh assani goy

/how i ended prayer in my public school in 1987


I went with Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn !!

Half the school went insane.
 
2013-01-19 10:14:43 PM

Somacandra: skullkrusher: If he is just visiting with the student he should absofarkinglutely be allowed to do so as long as there is such a visitation policy. To say otherwise belies a much different motivation than constitutional concerns

If I thought for a moment that a visitor from the local mosque to child at the school would be treated the same way, I would agree with you. I am highly skeptical. Hiring a radical sectarian group to 'represent' your policy towards religious access to elementary schools students suggests that Constitutional concerns are a mere facade.


see, if visitor from the mosque were treated differently, you should be outraged and I'd imagine you would be. Of course, this is not a reason that another person should receive poor treatment.
 
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