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(The New York Times)   OMG, Mitt Romney was right. What it means to be "middle-class" in Manhattan   (nytimes.com) divider line 114
    More: Interesting, Manhattan, dog park  
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6384 clicks; posted to Business » on 19 Jan 2013 at 4:26 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-19 01:02:45 PM  
And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-19 01:19:32 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.


UnskewedJeep.com?
 
2013-01-19 01:22:37 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what!



No, he wasn't, thread-shiatter.

Keep sucking that Koch.
 
2013-01-19 01:22:39 PM  
The median income for a family in Manhattan is about $50,000.

So, that. This article is more about the average white, post-graduate professional family. Which is by definition pretty much already upper-middle class at the lowest.
 
2013-01-19 01:27:32 PM  
The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

Which is 72% of my yearly rent.
 
2013-01-19 03:06:09 PM  
But in the last 5 or 10 years an array of high-rises brought "uberwealthy" neighbors, she said, the kind of people who discuss winter trips to St. Barts at the dog run, and buy $700 Moncler ski jackets for their children.

You could always.... you know.... not live in Manhattan.  Just a thought.
 
2013-01-19 03:45:12 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.


You're stupid and wrong.
 
2013-01-19 03:57:08 PM  

Tigger: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.

You're stupid and wrong.


Shhhh! He's the only one who doesn't know that.
 
2013-01-19 04:21:12 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.


I like the 'he lost and get over it' bit when you're repeating a lie that the CEO said was a lie 3 months ago.
 
2013-01-19 04:39:59 PM  

kmmontandon: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what!


No, he wasn't, thread-shiatter.

Keep sucking that Koch.


=====================

I like the cut of your jib.
 
2013-01-19 04:45:51 PM  
Um..... no.

One can make the same idiotic argument about places like the Hamptons, Vail Colorado, but it doesn't make it true.
 
2013-01-19 04:46:40 PM  

GAT_00: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

Which is 72% of my yearly rent.


Of course if you can live just a little biatcheaply, it's amazing how much money you can save up fast.

/Bay Area.
//Bosses rent is $2400, mine is $870 (shiatty 2 bedroom with a roommate).
///Dumping a third of my after-tax income into paying off debt.
////Now if only I wasn't paying $2600 in taxes on $6000 of income each month, or I'd be dumping half.
 
2013-01-19 04:48:09 PM  
A broken primitive analog clock is right twice a day.
 
2013-01-19 04:54:47 PM  

KarmicDisaster: A broken primitive analog clock is right twice a day.


Isn't Rmoney just blinking 12:00?
 
2013-01-19 05:04:43 PM  
Caption in pic in TFA: Maya Tolstoy, an associate professor at Columbia

It was at this point I suspected the article was TL;DR.
 
2013-01-19 05:08:48 PM  
I love NYC, and I lived in its outskirts for a time; but it is for the reasons in TFA that I'm very unlikely to return, unless I win the lottery.

God damn. :/
 
2013-01-19 05:10:43 PM  

meyerkev: $6000 of income each month


*points finger accusingly*

ONE-PERCENTER!!!!11!
 
2013-01-19 05:11:45 PM  
The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country
 
2013-01-19 05:12:51 PM  

DamnYankees: The median income for a family in Manhattan is about $50,000.

So, that. This article is more about the average white, post-graduate professional family. Which is by definition pretty much already upper-middle class at the lowest.


I think it's more about the typical property-owning Manhattan family. Rent is definitely crazy in many parts of Manhattan but there are also parts where it is more realistic. (And they're not even all ghettos.)
 
2013-01-19 05:16:18 PM  
The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?  Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?
 
2013-01-19 05:24:14 PM  

cleveralthere: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?  Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?


Well, salaries are higher out there. Speaking as a brand new just-out-of-college software engineer:

Chicago: $50K
Detroit: $60K (auto companies make it higher)
Coasts: $80-100K + $100K signing bonus + stock bonuses. (Or a little less plus significant equity, which can be worth the gamble).

So you can make $100K, keep $60K, and have really high rent, OR make $50K, keep $37K, and have really low rent. At the end of the day, it's pretty much the same thing in terms of "cash to play with".
 
2013-01-19 05:25:32 PM  

cleveralthere: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?  Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?


I'm in a similar boat as NYCers (I live in the Bay Area) -- we use U.S. dollars, but it's really a different economy than yours. Yes, if we made the same incomes as in Madison it would be impossible to live here, so we wouldn't, and so employers have to offer more money otherwise ... no employees would take the jobs. Even though we make more, we have to pay a lot more for an equivalent standard of living.
 
2013-01-19 05:41:55 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.


10/10. You got quite a few bites. Nicely done.
 
2013-01-19 05:43:36 PM  
I feel really happy that i just bought a nice house for under $125K.
 
2013-01-19 05:45:37 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter.


well... he was right in that he was completely wrong. so there's that.
 
2013-01-19 05:50:24 PM  

grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country


For me... the ocean, the weather, the view, the lifestyle, the recreational options, the higher wages, among other things make the rent well worth it.

/left coast
 
2013-01-19 06:12:09 PM  

grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country


We spend $2,000/month for our shiatty place in Los Angeles. Fortunately, we're moving out of California soon and will never have to pay so much for rent again.

You know, if flyover country had more jobs for educated people, perhaps more of us would move there?
 
2013-01-19 06:14:09 PM  
One can enjoy every part of manhattan while living close nearby in harlem (which no is not a deathtrap).

People all over the country accept longer commutes for less savings. Or pay twice as much for location. Or both
Only with manhattan do I see four articles a year full of idiots presenting me with exsmples of these poor little manhattanites and their troubles.

And the idiots in the article are placing the whine about being a white minority and basing it on food no less. One can get quality food of any ethnicity brought right to their door in manhattan.

People doing well but whining about bugged me when I was making 20k and it still bothers me now that I have a boat in my backyard.
 
2013-01-19 06:18:43 PM  
I have a brother in law that lives on Long Island, his taxes on the house is ~13k per year. My home is in NC, about the same size, my taxes is ~$1800 a year, I told him he could retire here and make 10 grand a year just in tax savings.
 
2013-01-19 06:19:37 PM  

cleveralthere: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?  Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?


Yup. My mortgage is less than half of that in Southern California.
 
2013-01-19 06:32:50 PM  
The monthly payment on 15-year mortgage for my completely solar powered house, outside of Seattle, $920.

NYC residents can suck it.

/a good college buddy just moved back from having a high paying job in NYC, where he could barely get by in Harlem. In Seattle, he lives like a king on the same income.
 
2013-01-19 06:37:36 PM  

cleveralthere: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?   Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?


Better is subjective. I live in NYC, I love it, and I would have a hard time living anywhere else. I feel that way for a lot of reasons, many of which you would probably find unpersuasive. Similarly, you must enjoy living in Madison for a number of reasons that would be unlikely to persuade me to live there. It really depends on what you value in life, and what you are looking to get out of your day-to-day existence. NYC offers a great deal of what I value; for me, the benefits of living here outweigh the cost of living here.
 
2013-01-19 06:45:36 PM  

MrSteve007: The monthly payment on 15-year mortgage for my completely solar powered house, outside of Seattle, $920.

NYC residents can suck it.

/a good college buddy just moved back from having a high paying job in NYC, where he could barely get by in Harlem. In Seattle, he lives like a king on the same income.


There you are, then. Have you considered that for some of us NYC is home? For some of us, we have roots here- our friends and family, our business networks, our community groups.

I bet you could find a cheaper house somewhere on the prairie in Wyoming or some such, but I bet that wouldn't be sufficient for you to move there.
 
2013-01-19 06:53:39 PM  

FizixJunkee: You know, if flyover country had more jobs for educated people, perhaps more of us would move there?


I assume you're talking about jobs at tech or fortune 500 companies. In my hometown, we've got:

Anheuser-Busch, Ameren UE, BJC Healthcare, Boeing, Centene, Famous-Barr, Fleishman-Hilliard, Hardee's, Laclede Gas+Energy, Multidata Systems Int'l., Nestle-Purina, Ralston-Purina, Peabody Energy, President Casinos, a bunch of railroad logistics and freight companies, SSM Healthcare, Stifel-Nicolaus, TWA Airlines, Union Electric, Wachovia, Wells-Fargo finance, and Zoltek corp.

That's a short list, obviously, but not all midwestern towns are populated by a bunch of belly-picking hoosiers.

If you absolutely have to have midwestern sensibilities with coastie culture and cost-of-living, there's always Chicago.

Either way, I don't really need to convince anyone to live here. The percentage of people who move back here after "escaping" (discussed by every high school student in the area) bears out that this is a good place to live and raise a family, which is why I moved back after living in Seattle, Las Vegas, and London.
 
2013-01-19 07:03:42 PM  

crotchgrabber: grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country

For me... the ocean, the weather, the view, the lifestyle, the recreational options, the higher wages, among other things make the rent well worth it.

/left coast


I am glad you find it worth it, but I went from Cali to Denver and at a salary that is 20% lower than I would have there (the company I work for is based in San Jose but has a large office north of Denver and that is the pay differential) I am experiencing a MUCH higher standard of living than my left coast co-workers. Cali can be a great place and I miss some aspects of it but it is a pretty significant cost to pay.
 
2013-01-19 07:08:23 PM  

meyerkev: ////Now if only I wasn't paying $2600 in taxes on $6000 of income each month


Huh?
 
2013-01-19 07:11:04 PM  

cleveralthere: The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month

this boggles my GD mind.  Here in Madison a one bedroom will run you maybe a grand a month and thats for the really nice ones.  I make a decent (for a kid out of college 2 years) entry level salary and if I put every penny into that rent it would leave me nearly 10 grand in the whole.  Who in their right mind would pay those kinds of rent?  Is it really that much better to live there or are people just that stupid?


A lot depends on what kind of work you do, what your ambitions are, and (to a much lesser degree) what you like to do for entertainment. I managed to get by in Manhattan back in the day with a salary less than $50,000; I worked in publishing, and at the time (mid 90s through '02) jobs were plentiful and some included great benefits (like free tickets to see the Knicks during the end of the Ewing years and the Yankees when they won a few championships). If you work in publishing, advertising, or anything involving the arts, it's hard to imagine leaving for flyover country. That's why so many people FROM flyover country move to New York. Right now, I've got a crappy gig at an arts organization, but I still have the chance to move up the food chain, or network my way to another venue. Even on the low end, it's not that bad. I know a few actors that make the kind of comfortable living doing extra work that they could never get outside of NY or LA. Overall, it's true that people making six- and seven-figure salaries can get caught up an the expensive lifestyle that's available here, but it's not a requirement. The advantage is that there are more opportunities to GET those six- and seven-figure jobs than in flyover country.

/Maybe I should read the article. . .
 
2013-01-19 07:33:10 PM  

FizixJunkee: grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country

We spend $2,000/month for our shiatty place in Los Angeles. Fortunately, we're moving out of California soon and will never have to pay so much for rent again.

You know, if flyover country had more jobs for educated people, perhaps more of us would move there?


Nah, it's full of the kind of people who would live in flyover country.
 
2013-01-19 07:36:20 PM  

grinding_journalist: FizixJunkee: You know, if flyover country had more jobs for educated people, perhaps more of us would move there?

I assume you're talking about jobs at tech or fortune 500 companies. In my hometown, we've got:

Anheuser-Busch, Ameren UE, BJC Healthcare, Boeing, Centene, Famous-Barr, Fleishman-Hilliard, Hardee's, Laclede Gas+Energy, Multidata Systems Int'l., Nestle-Purina, Ralston-Purina, Peabody Energy, President Casinos, a bunch of railroad logistics and freight companies, SSM Healthcare, Stifel-Nicolaus, TWA Airlines, Union Electric, Wachovia, Wells-Fargo finance, and Zoltek corp.



Saint Louis, is it? My sister lived there (Webster?) for a while. I always enjoyed visiting. I'm still finishing up my PhD, but my husband has applied to jobs at Washington U, but never received any offers.

Fortunately, he did receive a job elsewhere and we're moving at the end of the academic year.
 
2013-01-19 07:43:05 PM  
I live in a one-bedroom Eco-friendly home with solar power, no television and no Apple products. I don't have plumbing and collect water from the local stream. I boil the water in my Eco-friendly fireplace using only recycled wood. I ride my bike to work and eat lunch using the vegetables I grow out back. Suck it NYC losers
 
2013-01-19 07:44:23 PM  

DubyaHater: I live in a one-bedroom Eco-friendly home with solar power, no television and no Apple products. I don't have plumbing and collect water from the local stream. I boil the water in my Eco-friendly fireplace using only recycled wood. I ride my bike to work and eat lunch using the vegetables I grow out back. Suck it NYC losers


isthatcoffee.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-19 07:49:19 PM  
Choose to live on some of the most expensive R.E. on the planet, make it superficially appear like you REALLY NEED MOAR TAX CUTS.

/we feel your pain
 
2013-01-19 07:52:36 PM  

Tigger: The Stealth Hippopotamus: And he was right about Jeep moving jobs but guess what! It doesn't matter. He lost get over it. Now it is time to figure out how to survive the shiat storm that we are about to go though. If you're too busy looking back you never see what's coming.

You're stupid and wrong.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-sorry-but-ive-had-just-about-eno ug h-of-me,30925/
 
2013-01-19 08:01:24 PM  

grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country


Enjoy living where Applebee's, Chili's, and the bowling alley count as a night of fine dining and entertainment.
 
2013-01-19 08:06:01 PM  
The above snark aside, I do kind of miss some things about flyover land, now living in the SF Bay area. For one, I'll pretty much never own my own home. I've pretty much resigned myself to that one. Starter homes up the peninsula are $800,000 plus, and in today's real estate market, you need to offer at least 10% above asking price to have a shot at buying. It was nice to be able to afford 2,000 sq.ft. of living space back east (you'll pay about $2,000-$2,500 per 1000 sq.ft here). You might get 25% higher salary out here, but it's not enough to make up for the 100% increase in cost of living.
 
2013-01-19 08:21:16 PM  

cig-mkr: I have a brother in law that lives on Long Island, his taxes on the house is ~13k per year. My home is in NC, about the same size, my taxes is ~$1800 a year, I told him he could retire here and make 10 grand a year just in tax savings.


I live on Long Island. 90% of the people I know who leave here go to NC, the rest are old and go to Florida. But everybody leaves here eventually.

I've got a 2500 square foot house in Suffolk County. I pay around $9k a year in property taxes, and that's low. I know people who live a little further west and they're paying $12-15k. The closer you get to NYC the higher the taxes.

On the upside I bought my house in the 90s before the real estate market exploded, I paid less than half of what it's worth now. Yay me.
 
2013-01-19 08:27:45 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: The above snark aside, I do kind of miss some things about flyover land, now living in the SF Bay area. For one, I'll pretty much never own my own home. I've pretty much resigned myself to that one. Starter homes up the peninsula are $800,000 plus, and in today's real estate market, you need to offer at least 10% above asking price to have a shot at buying. It was nice to be able to afford 2,000 sq.ft. of living space back east (you'll pay about $2,000-$2,500 per 1000 sq.ft here). You might get 25% higher salary out here, but it's not enough to make up for the 100% increase in cost of living.


I live in a nice hilly area of Oakland, houses w/ yards are about $450k. Upside: I'm near a good public school, lots of parks and hiking and mountain biking, short commute to anywhere, museums, lots of doctors/dentists to choose from, BART nearby, and (in my opinion) the best climate in all the Bay Area (60-70 year round, except for this cold snap this last week). Downside: BART/tunnel commute, and everyone says "You live in Oakland? Isn't that all drug-shootingy and hellacious crime?" ... Yeah, but not everywhere, it's mostly the International Boulevard corridor. (Pretty much every neighborhood bounded by the 24/13/Macarthur Blvd, all the hills, and Maxwell Park are nice, safe places to live)
 
2013-01-19 08:34:26 PM  
People that live in the middle of 'Merica are so stupid and backwards. I wish they would all die.
 
2013-01-19 08:35:54 PM  
BRB. Asking my BFF Jill if she thinks Romney was right. LOL
 
2013-01-19 08:36:21 PM  

jst3p: crotchgrabber: grinding_journalist: The notion of spending damn near $4000 a month on rent is...I...I just can't comprehend how ridiculous it is to spend that much and be left with zero equity in a property.

/you coasties amuse us here in flyover country

For me... the ocean, the weather, the view, the lifestyle, the recreational options, the higher wages, among other things make the rent well worth it.

/left coast

I am glad you find it worth it, but I went from Cali to Denver and at a salary that is 20% lower than I would have there (the company I work for is based in San Jose but has a large office north of Denver and that is the pay differential) I am experiencing a MUCH higher standard of living than my left coast co-workers. Cali can be a great place and I miss some aspects of it but it is a pretty significant cost to pay.


That I can understand. If I was ever offered a transfer I would really have to think about the location. I'm in Monterey. And if I wanted to, I could be surfing within five minutes. Or snowboarding in a couple hours. I'm one of the hated ones here on fark (cyclist) and the roadbiking and mountain biking are freaking fantastic around here. I was offered a transfer to Palm Desert in Southern California and turned it down with a quickness. Cheaper rent, same pay, awful location unless you're 60 and white. There are areas I would consider (you're in one of them) but I really think I found my home.

That's the main thing these types of article kinda leave out. Home is home. If you have a connection to a place, you'll pay for it.
 
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