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(A letter to some guy)   "Where's my magic button, the switch I can flip to show men like you what it feels like on the other side of your 'jokes' and 'compliments'?"   (rolereboot.org ) divider line
    More: Scary, Liam Payne, female politicians, magic, patriarchy  
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22261 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2013 at 8:58 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-19 01:01:06 PM  

Pincy: I think the bigger point here is that it's not up to women to teach men how to behave,


I wish you would tell that to some of the women on here. Amirite?
 
2013-01-19 01:01:08 PM  

Pincy: WhippingBoy: Polyhazard: And what, exactly, was your counterpoint? Because I missed it. All I see you saying is "guys have been groped." How is that a counterpoint?

Perspective. As a man, getting groped is no big deal to me. So if I hear an anecdote about a woman getting groped, my own experiences and feelings say "no big deal" and, on an emotional level, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I don't think this makes me a bad person (at least I hope it doesn't).

There seems to be a lot of anger because "I just don't get it". Well... you're right; I don't get it. I've never been a woman, and while I can cognitively understand the fear and frustration that being groped might cause, it just doesn't hit me on an emotional level, because these are emotions that I've never had to deal with.

On the other hand, people have no problem telling me how wonderful and problem free my life must be because I'm a man, even though they themselves have absolutely no clue what being a man is like. To top it off, I'm supposed to feel ashamed if I even mention that I have problems and issues of my own to deal with.

I apologize if my comments have offended anyone; my intent was sincere (but perhaps misguided); I'm just trying to keep things honest...

OK, it sounds like you are being honest here, so don't take these questions the wrong way because I'm not trying to accuse you of anything.

Are you constantly being groped by other men or is this just a once in a blue moon thing?

Have you ever thought to yourself "that man is going to rape me?"


No, I'm not constantly being groped. Are you implying that constant groping is something most women have to deal with?
One of my "groping" incidents was by a group of three men. While I can't honestly claim that I thought I was about to get raped, the possibility did indeed cross my mind.

Do you see my point? I'm labeled as a misogynstic troglodyte because my I can't empathize on an emotional level in regards to these feelings because I've never experienced them. If I say "getting groped is no big deal", it's because I honestly feel that getting groped is no big deal (e.g. I'm not condoning the behaviour or writing it off as "boys will be boys", it's just that in my world, it truly is no big deal).
 
2013-01-19 01:01:16 PM  
Why is my beauty such a curse?
 
2013-01-19 01:02:04 PM  

THE GREAT NAME: The My Little Pony Killer: THE GREAT NAME: A successful false rape accusation is just as bad as a rape and so the fear is just as legitimate.

Hahahaha no. Try again, with a little less butthurt this time.

Yes it is. If is successful it results in a long prison sentence, reduced employment prospects and stigma. Rape takes 3-9 years to recover emotionally. The prison sentence for the innocent man can be 5 to 20 years, which is longer. You can laugh if you need to, to try and make yourself feel more certain. But the fact is a false rape accusation is as bad as a rape.


All of these stats come from the same place as your "85% of rape claims are false" one?
 
2013-01-19 01:03:58 PM  

Polyhazard: That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?


People talk about what's most important to them and what concerns them.
 
2013-01-19 01:04:51 PM  

bunner: Let me state this flatly as a point of fact.

I FULLY SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY FOR RAPISTS.

That being said, it is a crime of violence and aggression meant to humiliate and demean.

But I do not equate it with being an ill bathed, greasy sh*tbag making sucking noises at women on the corner. That's called a free sideshow,.


Or disorderly conduct, depending on your jurisdiction.
 
2013-01-19 01:05:04 PM  
I cannot believe how horrifically ashamed of the mysoginist douchebags in this thread. Even for Fark this is amazingly pathetic. To the small number of people who commented against the hate, I applaud you. To everyone else I truly and dearly hope you DIAF. No really, as soon as is possible would be great.

I appreciate that some of you are emotionally and mentally a 13 year old and feel that because you don't get to have sex with a pretty woman that all woman are evil. It just amazes me how you hide behind a facade of excuses, blaming and what I'd like to coin as 'intellectual hatred'. How you have somehow twisted reality in your mind to effectively say it is okay that women are treated like this and you have perfectly valid reasons for feeling the way you do. When what it really boils down to is since you can't have whatever woman (or women) you think you deserve they should all continue to shutup and accept their victimhood graciously. Allow me to reiterate... die soon, please.
 
2013-01-19 01:06:25 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: THE GREAT NAME: TheFark5000: Wow. The amount of sexism and "what about the few men this happens to!" in the first page alone already makes me want to vomit. The world is such a mean place to all you fragile, sad, pathetic men of Fark.

If somebody raped you, I would not shed a tear.

And yet if somebody were to accuse you of rape, you would want the whole world to cry with you.


Well, obviously. What's your point?
 
2013-01-19 01:06:47 PM  

quickdraw: theflatline: I am a short guy, and I held the door open for a shorter girl in a bar and she said loudly "sorry honey you have to be a least six feet to ride this"

A woman at my office constantly comments on my package "you must have steel belted underwear to hold that thing in check"

Also big guys with inferiority complexes tend to bump into you, call your shorty, buddy, big guy chief, and condescend.

ok - so one chick was rude, the woman in your office should be brought up on harassment charges and yes there are bullies in the world. Life isnt fair. But what does any of that have to do with the writer's concerns? She isnt writing about the difficulties of being a short guy. You can do that on your blog if you want.

This is an article about the difficulties of being female in our culture. Just because you're not happy in your skin has nothing to do with the very real problems women face every day from harassment.


Come on now...don't belittle the guy...
 
2013-01-19 01:08:32 PM  

WhippingBoy: If I say "getting groped is no big deal", it's because I honestly feel that getting groped is no big deal (e.g. I'm not condoning the behaviour or writing it off as "boys will be boys", it's just that in my world, it truly is no big deal).


When you say that, are you saying "It's no big deal when I get groped," or are you saying "groping shouldn't be a big deal for anyone?" And if it's the latter, what follows, exactly? That people shouldn't feel shy about groping others? Or that people shouldn't complain that they are groped?

If this woman were to come around to your way of thinking, how would her behavior change? Would she just chuckle the next time she gets grabbed on the train? And if I see a butt that needs grabbing on the next elevator, should I or should I not consider that person's personal bodily autonomy before I go for it?
 
2013-01-19 01:11:57 PM  
BTW, guys? If you have to act like a monkey in a zoo, groping your wang and leering and insulting the sh*t out of women to meet one, you wont.
 
2013-01-19 01:12:14 PM  

Polyhazard: Felgraf: Polyhazard: Thanks for the advice, I guess... but could you please give it without being disingenuous and minimizing the problem women are complaining about here? Don't you think that's a bit insulting?

It is insulting to do, yeah.

It's also one of the reasons (again, replying to your earlier comment) why some men get frustrated when some topics are brought up: Because it sometimes feels like their experiences, or the inequalities and unfairness they see (among others, aforementioned imbalance when it comes to the justice system with regard to female rapists, statutory or otherwise), are being minimized, or people are being disingenuous when replying to them, or discussing them. Not that "There are a lot of things we need to fix, some things other than that may have to get first", but sometimes what feels like outright dismissal. Like their experiences, or their encounters, do not matter and should never be considered. And it IS insulting.

Again, whether this is rational or not for some people to feel that their concerns are being dismissed is not for me to judge, but that IS where a good chunk of the frustration is coming from.

/In my opinion.
//I am not psychic, mind, so I could very well be wrong.

How, exactly, does a person come away from a piece in which the author writes about her own experience as a female person, and how that experience is difficult to imagine from the point of view of a male person, suddenly add up to "the male experience is being dismissed?"

That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?



And yet when I gave you a balanced analysis that included ACTUAL experiences from my life and my wife's life, you accused me of lying ("disingenuous") and "minimizing" what women IN GENERAL go through. You did exactly what you're complaining about in others.

Why is it OK for you to extrapolate from specific experiences of individuals to general statements about groups, but it's not OK for men to do it?

As others have said, the reason men get on the defensive is because these discussions go this very route. Descriptions of individual experiences get morphed into a "battle of the sexes", and everyone is suddenly included in the fight and starts defending himself/herself and their respective genders.

If this was a thread about a guy complaining about some women making fun of some aspect of his physical appearance, how do you think it would play out? Would there be understanding and support from everyone, and NO women making fun of him at all, or bringing up how women's bodies are viewed and what women have to deal with?

At this point we're just biatching and arguing about biatching and arguing, so I'm done for now and you can take it or leave it.
 
2013-01-19 01:12:22 PM  

THE GREAT NAME: 83% of rape claims are made up.


Where in the hell did you find that statistic??
 
2013-01-19 01:13:25 PM  

Pincy: THE GREAT NAME: toomuchmarisa: [img685.imageshack.us image 300x391]

Jesus farking christ I am SO TIRED of women complaining all the time about everything. If you're an attractive woman you are like a celebrity, and celebrities have to deal with getting harassed in public. Period. On the other hand, you are also A FARKING CELEBRITY, which has a plethora of perks.

This is how life goes, there are upsides and downsides to everything. Incessantly complaining about the negative aspects, especially while ignoring the positives, just makes you look like a whiny, spoiled, and naive 12 year old. Grow the fark up.

/life is hard
//welcome to the real world
///rich white people problems ftl

Feminists like Pincy ensure women have no challenges in life, and hence no reason to grow up. At least until it is too late. Feminism's gift to women is a poisoned chalice.

I take it you are implying that being called a feminist is a bad thing?

And yes, in a perfect world, I don't think women should have to have the "challenge" of trying not to be raped. If that makes me a bad person then so be it.


I do not support women being raped. Rape is unacceptable. But this comment was in the context of things that women find annoying or unfair or scary. And women should have to deal with such things just lime men have to. It is character-building. How can a woman bring up children if they have not grown up themselves - it only passes problems on.
 
2013-01-19 01:14:00 PM  

Polyhazard: WhippingBoy: If I say "getting groped is no big deal", it's because I honestly feel that getting groped is no big deal (e.g. I'm not condoning the behaviour or writing it off as "boys will be boys", it's just that in my world, it truly is no big deal).

When you say that, are you saying "It's no big deal when I get groped," or are you saying "groping shouldn't be a big deal for anyone?" And if it's the latter, what follows, exactly? That people shouldn't feel shy about groping others? Or that people shouldn't complain that they are groped?

If this woman were to come around to your way of thinking, how would her behavior change? Would she just chuckle the next time she gets grabbed on the train? And if I see a butt that needs grabbing on the next elevator, should I or should I not consider that person's personal bodily autonomy before I go for it?


I'm saying that I feel I don't deserve to be vilified because my emotional response to getting groped (or hearing about someone getting groped) is different than someone else's so I'm not making this The Most Important Thing Ever. I'm certainly not advocating that "groping" be tolerated.
 
2013-01-19 01:15:00 PM  

WhippingBoy: No, I'm not constantly being groped. Are you implying that constant groping is something most women have to deal with?
One of my "groping" incidents was by a group of three men. While I can't honestly claim that I thought I was about to get raped, the possibility did indeed cross my mind.

Do you see my point? I'm labeled as a misogynstic troglodyte because my I can't empathize on an emotional level in regards to these feelings because I've never experienced them. If I say "getting groped is no big deal", it's because I honestly feel that getting groped is no big deal (e.g. I'm not condoning the behaviour or writing it off as "boys will be boys", it's just that in my world, it truly is no big deal).


Yes, I understand the point you are trying to make and I'm going to say that just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean it's not a big deal to others. You just admitted that you never felt the threat of rape. I'm guessing 99.9% of the men you asked would say they've never felt the threat of rape either. I'm also guessing that percentage would be way lower for women. So when you say "it's not big deal to me", that's coming from the male perspective, which is going to be different than the female perspective.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude here or write-off your experience. I'm just not sure what your point is in saying that you don't consider groping and such to be a big deal?
 
2013-01-19 01:15:01 PM  
While I agree with the premise of the author's point in the article, I believe that she took it too far to actually validate the excellent point she made with her audience. She lost me when she started to talk about "MY rape" and how every woman apparently expects to be raped, at least, in her view of reality. If she would have tried to actually envision what it was actually like the scenario she wanted people to experience, then maybe she should have also considered the basic premise of human attraction and sexuality. The fact is that men and women are simply not wired the same way by design and thus behavior is not influenced by societal norms alone.
 
2013-01-19 01:15:31 PM  

shastacola: THE GREAT NAME: 83% of rape claims are made up.

Where in the hell did you find that statistic??


www.sportfishermen.com
 
2013-01-19 01:15:39 PM  

Bored Horde: WhippingBoy: Bored Horde: In the business world, if you're a man, as long as your hair is short and under control, everyone ignores it. It's a check box item. Women's hair gets graded. Men's clothing is the same - it's pass/fail, either the suit is clean, pressed, and fits or it's bad. Women's clothing gets graded for appearance, fashion, and riding the thin line between dowdy and slutty.

Are you sure about this? Do you have anything to back it up instead of your personal impressions or a ranting post from Jezebel?

Yes - this is basic perceptual research into photos of people, established in the 20th century and now a staple item of undergraduate introductory projects because the experiment is completely understood, the results fully analyzed, and it's still repeatable with the same findings.

Men's hair attracts comments like "professional" or "unprofessional", women's hair attracts comments like "fashionable" "stylish" "flirty" "professional" - it's graded on a spectrum. Again, if you've never understood this stuff and have any interest in learning what it's like to live as a woman in the Western world, then go read some books on the matter. You're not going to get a comprehensive education from a Fark thread, you're going to read a few nuggest of perspective among a flowing river of shiat from the internet misogynists.


And yet it's completely at odds with my entire professional career. Never once have I made, or have I heard from a colleague, a comment about a women's hair (save for asking the girl with 5 ft. long hair how long her hair was as a matter of curiosity, I would also have asked this if it had been a man).

The only times I have heard about clothing was when it was potentially inappropriate (e.g. club attire to a business meeting), it has always been a checkbox issue.

That is not to say I've never heard anyone comment on looks/attractiveness, but I suspect that happens in both directions (albeit probably disproportionately).

Perhaps asking people to specifically comment on an area yields different results than would occur in the real world unless otherwise prompted? I might give similar answers if asked, but in the real world I just notice if you have reasonable hygiene/tidiness.

/anecdotal evidence is irrefutable!
 
2013-01-19 01:15:54 PM  

bunner: Zombie Butler: I would agree with the civility that being "ladies and gentlemen" implies. What I don't agree with is the monetary aspect of that relationship. When women can't own property, or earn a decent wage, or invest or do any of the other aspects of society that allows her to eat or have a home with out a husband, then "the civility" of our previous mores creates all sorts of social implications that are harmful to our species.

That IS the party line, but a glimpse history at will show that, overall, many women in different circumstances did quite well alone, opened businesses, owned properties, amassed wealth and provided employment. Mostly the same way men did. Finding an opportunity and busting their ass, being born with it or having a great blessing bestowed upon them. In the humdrum lives of the regular Blokes and Bettys, that was a bit more accurate but it's a false equivalency to assign decent behavior with drudgery and disenfranchisement. You don't have to be a complete f*ckstick to do well with money. And almost ALL marriages, regardless of who is the more dominant partner, manage to decide financial matters on their own. Sometimes to no great evident wisdom or useful result. But saying "If you have a uterus, you couldn't afford to be a pleasant person or you'd have nothing" is a tidy bit of kool aid leftover from days of feminism as a reading comprehension disorder days when misandry got it's first nice hat and went to town.


Woa man slow down.

I didn't say anything about having to be a biatch to get a head as a woman. Perhaps my assumption that you were pining for the days of very classified sex-roles because they were more gentile, was miss assumed from your post. "Did we really come up with brave and empowering new world when we decided that being ladies and gentlemen was "old hat". That old hat was a pretty useful ledge in our climb out of the social primordial goo, y'all".

I see now that you were actually referring to something else. I know the theories you are talking about, I really don't care to comment one way or another on them.

I was merely commenting on the idea of classified sex-roles being detrimental to humanity. The instances you are speaking about are shining examples within a system that discouraged such behavior. Honestly, I'm just thinking about the feeding and caring for our young.
 
2013-01-19 01:16:29 PM  

WhippingBoy: Polyhazard: That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?

People talk about what's most important to them and what concerns them.


It doesn't help the conversation and derails it.

"Let's talk about the fear and humiliation most women live with when they are stalked and shamed in public for amusement by guys who think its no big deal."

"Well, let's not forget that guys are sometimes targeted too!"

See? Not helpful, and does not add to the conversation.
 
2013-01-19 01:17:08 PM  

lordjupiter: Why is it OK for you to extrapolate from specific experiences of individuals to general statements about groups, but it's not OK for men to do it?


Show me the statistics that show that men are anywhere close to women in being sexually harassed and then we'll talk.
 
2013-01-19 01:19:52 PM  

Pincy: lordjupiter: Why is it OK for you to extrapolate from specific experiences of individuals to general statements about groups, but it's not OK for men to do it?

Show me the statistics that show that men are anywhere close to women in being sexually harassed and then we'll talk.


Out of context. Not an excuse for a double standard in logic.
 
2013-01-19 01:20:18 PM  
I love Ric Romero's post about how she uses all 3 names, has a roommate
, wonders how many tacos she can devour, and instead of writing an interesting article, is STILL drawing attention to herself writing about phantom men ogling her...
 
2013-01-19 01:20:30 PM  

Zombie Butler: Perhaps my assumption that you were pining for the days of very classified sex-roles because they were more gentile, was miss assumed from your post.


Ah, that was probably it. There were no "good old days". Just different technology, different mores and different problems. However, I would say it's readily apparent that a broad and mind portion of the brave new world, at least on a sociocultural level sucks canal water.
 
2013-01-19 01:20:40 PM  

tirob:
I would advise any woman to stay away from dive bars and meat market clubs. But if that woman rejects my advice, she's still entitled to sit there and have a drink without being come on to in a gross manner.


I would advise any atheist to stay away from churches and mosques. But if that atheist rejects my advice, he's still entitled to sit there and have a drink without being preeched to in a pious manner.

I would advise any republican to stay away from abortion hospitals. But if that republican rejects my advice, she's still entitled to stand by the operating table without being handed a bloody pulsating foetus.
 
2013-01-19 01:21:38 PM  
Polyhazard
But you have to wonder why a thread about a woman trying to get men to see things from her point of view devolves into an instant wail-fest about the shiat men have to deal with,

As I posted earlier, I'm not surprised at all:
If you end your "men, look at this from a women's point" essay with an insult and a laundry list of things that apply no matter if you're male or female, you've more or less ruined your otherwise nice piece because the last impression your essay leaves is that of being a hypocrite with a sidenote of douche, no matter how valid the previous parts were.
By suggesting to ask female friends about crap that men very likely have experienced/felt themselves, the author actually kinda is..
Polyhazard[..] is saying guys don't have problems.
Well, or at least shouldn't be surprised if it leaves as similar impression.

Polyhazard
as if placing it on a scale will somehow erase the point this woman was making about her own experience.


That's somewhere between projecting and a strawman and equally deserving of
Polyhazard: Don't be (pretend to) be stupid.
 
2013-01-19 01:21:41 PM  

WhippingBoy: Polyhazard: WhippingBoy: If I say "getting groped is no big deal", it's because I honestly feel that getting groped is no big deal (e.g. I'm not condoning the behaviour or writing it off as "boys will be boys", it's just that in my world, it truly is no big deal).

When you say that, are you saying "It's no big deal when I get groped," or are you saying "groping shouldn't be a big deal for anyone?" And if it's the latter, what follows, exactly? That people shouldn't feel shy about groping others? Or that people shouldn't complain that they are groped?

If this woman were to come around to your way of thinking, how would her behavior change? Would she just chuckle the next time she gets grabbed on the train? And if I see a butt that needs grabbing on the next elevator, should I or should I not consider that person's personal bodily autonomy before I go for it?

I'm saying that I feel I don't deserve to be vilified because my emotional response to getting groped (or hearing about someone getting groped) is different than someone else's so I'm not making this The Most Important Thing Ever. I'm certainly not advocating that "groping" be tolerated.


You don't deserve to be vilified for your emotional response.... but that is precisely what has happened to this woman in this very thread from the very beginning. Your initial "outrage for blog hits" comment being a small part of that.

There is a very high number of comments in this thread that are all about how the author SHOULD feel about this, and what must be wrong with her for feeling otherwise.
 
2013-01-19 01:22:31 PM  

Polyhazard: Felgraf: Polyhazard: Thanks for the advice, I guess... but could you please give it without being disingenuous and minimizing the problem women are complaining about here? Don't you think that's a bit insulting?

It is insulting to do, yeah.

It's also one of the reasons (again, replying to your earlier comment) why some men get frustrated when some topics are brought up: Because it sometimes feels like their experiences, or the inequalities and unfairness they see (among others, aforementioned imbalance when it comes to the justice system with regard to female rapists, statutory or otherwise), are being minimized, or people are being disingenuous when replying to them, or discussing them. Not that "There are a lot of things we need to fix, some things other than that may have to get first", but sometimes what feels like outright dismissal. Like their experiences, or their encounters, do not matter and should never be considered. And it IS insulting.

Again, whether this is rational or not for some people to feel that their concerns are being dismissed is not for me to judge, but that IS where a good chunk of the frustration is coming from.

/In my opinion.
//I am not psychic, mind, so I could very well be wrong.

How, exactly, does a person come away from a piece in which the author writes about her own experience as a female person, and how that experience is difficult to imagine from the point of view of a male person, suddenly add up to "the male experience is being dismissed?"

That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?


I apologize in advance: TL:DR ensues. (that is to say: Long post ahead.)

I'm not sure it's necessarily the *article itself* that garners and provokes these responses. But more the whole... overarching discussion? This article is just sort of a piece of the whole conversation. If that makes sense? I'm grasping at words here.

And we have posts in here of people being dismissive of others personal experiences, or their attempts to show their own views (a person pointing out that being physically un-intimidating (6' tall, but only 130 lbs) does not *necessarily* mean one does not have to live in fear of others retaliation, their response is treated in what seems like a dismissive manner).

Or, well, as Whipping Boy pointed out, the sort of contradictory feeling of being told they wouldn't understand because they're not a woman (which he admits: On a visceral and emotional level, he cannot put himself emotionally in that situation because it is alien, and he has not experienced it. He can only imagine), but at the same time *being told* how they feel or view the world. He tries to explain his view on the situation (at his own admittance: Somewhat clumsily, which is why he is asking for clarification on things), and he kind of gets savaged for it.

It's not necessarily the article that is giving people the idea that men don't matter. But people react to things from other conversations, other articles, other arguments because, well, this article doesn't exist in a vacuum. And its those things that some people feel that men are being called out as a whole, that all men are part of the problem. They don't see people making statements like "My perspective changed when I had a daughter. For the first time ever I saw the world from the eyes of a girl. And the view was not pretty. Now I fully support my wife's insistence on single sex education. Boys are animals and belong in cages." being called out much, and so they take it as tacit support for such views-that many people feel that they, or their children, are animals and should be kept away from girls, not to be trusted, *because of their gender*.

And so they carry that feeling of frustration, or persecution, with them to the next time the topic comes around. And they get defensive, and they launch preemptive salvos. I'm not saying it's *right* or *rational* that they feel this way. Or that they act the way they do. But I can understand where the frustration comes from, the visceral feeling that someone dislikes you not because of things you've done-but because of what *other people* who share your chromosome have done. It's *not* rational, but... well, language, and the way we talk about things, can be pretty unconsciously powerful?


Ironically, I imagine it may in some ways echo and mirror women's frustrations with their opinions being ignored, their contributions being stolen or overshadowed or dismissed (fark YOU WATSON AND CRICK. God, that was almost as disheartening as when I learned Edison was an asshole fraud).

(This is not to say guys are being persecuted NEARLY as bad as women have. Or that they're actually being persecuted AT ALL, since, ZOMG TEXT ON THE INTERNET WAS MEAN TO ME" isn't, uh, really in the same universe as 'Not allowed to vote'. But I can sort of see the frustrations being born from that same part of the brain, from those same emotions of feeling ignored or pushed aside, even if the degrees are so different to be insane. But the human mind is kind of irrational: After all, Ikea even played off that in that whole 'Do you feel sorry for this lamp?' commercial...)

I'm not sure how to fix it, I don't think 'equal time' for guys is necessary: There ARE more things we need to fix, or to figure out how to do better in the future. Maybe an acknowledgement that their issues may be valid, but this isn't the focus of the discussion. Wouldn't necessarily fix things right away, or... maybe even at all. I don't really know how to fix it, or stop it. I don't even know if my analysis is *CORRECT*. That's just my take on the situation, my sort of stream-of-conscious-rambly-attempt to explain. I have probably done a poor job.


But I think some of it is just sort of... reactions/frustrations bouncing off each other, communication issues slowly building frustration higher?

To paraphrase the pathfinder from INK, "THEY'RE ALL REACTIONS!"
 
2013-01-19 01:22:54 PM  
Thank you for posting. I have sexualized relationships at times rather than socialized with persons as I say I value.
 
2013-01-19 01:23:43 PM  
What a dumb biatch
 
2013-01-19 01:24:26 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: WhippingBoy: Polyhazard: That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?

People talk about what's most important to them and what concerns them.

It doesn't help the conversation and derails it.

"Let's talk about the fear and humiliation most women live with when they are stalked and shamed in public for amusement by guys who think its no big deal."

"Well, let's not forget that guys are sometimes targeted too!"

See? Not helpful, and does not add to the conversation.


Sadly, the preponderance of male - female discussions seem to hinge on the phrase "but that's not what I'M talking about!"
 
2013-01-19 01:26:04 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: WhippingBoy: Polyhazard: That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?

People talk about what's most important to them and what concerns them.

It doesn't help the conversation and derails it.

"Let's talk about the fear and humiliation most women live with when they are stalked and shamed in public for amusement by guys who think its no big deal."

"Well, let's not forget that guys are sometimes targeted too!"

See? Not helpful, and does not add to the conversation.


Actually, let me rephrase that. It adds to the conversation in that one has to ask why anyone is targeted for sexual harassment. The gender identity or sex of the person who is being harassed is irrelevant in my opinion; it's the behavior of the people doing the harassing.

Sexual harassment is a privacy issue. I like to maintain my right to peacefully go about my business without other intruding into my sexual behaviors.

For others it may be acceptable for strangers or mere acquaintances to insert their attentions into your sex life, but for many people, it's a violation of privacy.
 
2013-01-19 01:27:39 PM  

Pincy: Show me the statistics that show that men are anywhere close to women in being sexually harassed and then we'll talk.


Here you go. (286 independent studies)

"This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "

Link

.
 
2013-01-19 01:28:42 PM  

tirob: I would advise any woman to stay away from dive bars and meat market clubs. But if that woman rejects my advice, she's still entitled to sit there and have a drink without being come on to in a gross manner.


Great in theory, but if I'm at the farmer's market and I see a table set up with vegetables, I'm going to assume they are for sale. It's a social contract at the club that everyone is looking to get laid, that's why they are there.

While for God's sake I don't condone any of the actions described in the article, I wouldn't go to a gay bar and be surprised if I got groped. I also wouldn't be offended if I went to a sports bar and some guy wanted to talk about baseball.
 
2013-01-19 01:28:57 PM  

bunner: Zombie Butler: Perhaps my assumption that you were pining for the days of very classified sex-roles because they were more gentile, was miss assumed from your post.

Ah, that was probably it. There were no "good old days". Just different technology, different mores and different problems. However, I would say it's readily apparent that a broad and mind portion of the brave new world, at least on a sociocultural level sucks canal water.


Agreed, we'll figure it out though. That solution will lead to more problems and on, and on. . .
 
2013-01-19 01:29:52 PM  

Polyhazard: That's what's baffling to me. It almost seems like certain dudes simply can't stomach to idea of discussing a woman's experience without making it about making sure there's "equal time" for talking about men. What, exactly, in this article, is giving people the idea that this is about saying men don't matter?


So... equal treatment for women and men when you want it... but different treatment when you want that... you can't even decide by what rules you want to play the game!
 
2013-01-19 01:30:47 PM  

Felgraf: That's just my take on the situation, my sort of stream-of-conscious-rambly-attempt to explain. I have probably done a poor job.


No, actually, I think your comment here is one of the more insightful in the thread. And it does mirror the author's post in an interesting way: dude doesn't understand why his boorish comment is such a big deal, because he doesn't understand that it was the 3rd time gal has heard it tonight, and the kind of... attrition, for lack of a better word, that kind of thing can do to. No single interaction is an island in culture.

Guess I'd feel more optimistic if more comments here were like this one: evaluating the situation, rather than merely reacting to it, within it. The "battle of the sexes" is a goddamn sham.
 
2013-01-19 01:30:50 PM  

tirob: But if that woman rejects my advice, she's still entitled to sit there and have a drink without being come on to in a gross manner.


Not so much. Free speech 101 really. Anyone can say anything they want as long as it's not a believable threat or disruptive to the public at large.

tirob: However, taking responsibility for your own actions also applies to men who intentionally alarm women with obscene comments. I don't know what you call that where you are, but where I am it is called disorderly conduct and it is illegal everywhere, including dive bars and meat market clubs.



If you're intentionally alarming(threatening) someone, it's more along the lines of verbal assault, unless you are ALSO making a huge scene of it(then it is disorderly conduct).

Link

There is a world of difference between verbal assault and many a typical cat-call.

At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

Me saying "I'd sure like to stick my dick in you", for example, isn't assault. Sure, it's gross and offensive to sensibilities to many people, but it is not necessarily indicative of an imminent contact of that nature.

"I will stick my dick in you" can be assault, if it's believable that I could and would do such a thing.
The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim.

This is where the line is drawn between right and wrong in the eyes of the law. If a typical woman is afraid of men in general, she really is scared, but it's not because of the action of the man.(which in the typical cat calls as described in the article are exaggerated desires, not literal threats presented with believable preperation).

It's all about the state of the victim in relation to what rational people would feel in that circumstance, and similar to the whole question of self defense. If you're in a state of real fear, it doesn't matter, it's if a reasonable person would be in a state of fear. Most reasonable people do not live in such perpetual fear, and hence merely find vulgar things offensive and annoying, ergo, not illegal.

There are no rights where generally speaking individuals are to not be annoyed, or protections of paranoid individuals every single fear, anywhere within our basic civic or even human rights. A person's sense of propriety is not a sheltered thing, there is no "right" to not be offended.

That people believe such things is ludicrous, very indicative of their warped view of reality.

It may indeed be nice if we could go through life without being annoyed, but rational people know that the world is a dingy place(at best) and that is just not likely to happen. If you go out in public, the reasonable expectations... to expect X, Y, and Z. Be it someone taking your picture, leering at you, or whistling and commenting on your appearance. If you cannot handle such things, avoid such places.

If you put cleavage on display, or wear tight clothes, or let your dick hang out just a little bit, and do so in public, people WILL look, and many WILL comment and voice their likes and/or dislikes. None of which are necessarily illegal in their own right, some are downright rude or vulguar, but not illegal. To expect/believe otherwise is a bit delusional.
 
2013-01-19 01:31:17 PM  

cew-smoke: I cannot believe how horrifically ashamed of the mysoginist douchebags in this thread. Even for Fark this is amazingly pathetic. To the small number of people who commented against the hate, I applaud you. To everyone else I truly and dearly hope you DIAF. No really, as soon as is possible would be great.

I appreciate that some of you are emotionally and mentally a 13 year old and feel that because you don't get to have sex with a pretty woman that all woman are evil. It just amazes me how you hide behind a facade of excuses, blaming and what I'd like to coin as 'intellectual hatred'. How you have somehow twisted reality in your mind to effectively say it is okay that women are treated like this and you have perfectly valid reasons for feeling the way you do. When what it really boils down to is since you can't have whatever woman (or women) you think you deserve they should all continue to shutup and accept their victimhood graciously. Allow me to reiterate... die soon, please.


So much this. This thread is incredibly depressing.
 
2013-01-19 01:32:17 PM  

Lehk: WhippingBoy: 1. There's a subtle suggestion that this type of harassment and/or unwanted attention NEVER happens to men

no, the suggestion is that women have to deal with that shiat every DAY and men might deal with it a couple times a year.


I would give five years off my life to have to deal with it one single time.
 
2013-01-19 01:32:53 PM  

shastacola: Lenny_da_Hog: shastacola: God, the male butthurt comments in this thread are really pathetic. I look forward to the day when your 14 year old daughter get the shiat scared out of her by some 30 year old stranger who thinks it's his right to comment on her ass. Make sure she understands that she shouldn't dress so slutty or be so attractive.Tell her to get used to it,she's got many years of strangers with a bizarre sense of entitlement judging her attire and figure.

Yeah.

Women never judge each other on these things.

There's a difference between silently judging someone's looks and having complete strangers commenting on your "taco".but I bet you knew that.


"Silently." hahahahahahahahaha
 
2013-01-19 01:33:28 PM  
Are there mean people in the world?

Poor baby.


www.evolutionaryparenting.com
 
2013-01-19 01:33:49 PM  

geek_mars: Does it disturb you that we think like this? That we have to think like this?

I do find it disturbing that the author thinks like that. She does not have to. She talks about the things she does to protect herself because she's sure she's hurtling towards her rape moment, then notes that when her rape moment came she didn't get raped.
If rape didn't exist, would she (or anyone at all, male or female) no longer need to concern themselves with assault? Would she stop being afraid of men if they were only capable of beating the crap out of her but not raping her?
As long as she carries the mindset that every man is Schrodinger's rapist (yes, I've read that ridiculous essay, too) then the only acceptable behavior from any man is to pretend they don't see her.
I don't suggest that she, or any woman, should have to put up with unwanted advances or aggressive behavior, or worse, from men. I just don't subscribe to the idea that being convinced she's eventually going to be raped makes all men guilty of causing her to feel that way.


Good comment. If you're leaving your house every day thinking that today might be your rape day, well, you need to go see a therapist. That's paranoia. If you can't tell the difference between various levels of unsolicited attention you might get from men, to the point where you believe Casual "Hi" == "You look nice" == Crude comment about your butt == Creepy guy leering at you == Unwelcome groping == OMFG RAPE ... there's psychiatric help available for you, too.

I'm sorry that when you walk down the street looking awesome (a look you spent lots of time achieving), you might attract some unwanted attention. 90% of it will just be in the guys' minds and never spoken out loud. Some of the guys will whisper to their bros "how hot that one is" and, yes, a small few will crudely make their feelings known out loud. As a male, I apologize that those guys are there, but they're there, what can I say? You know, when you walk outside your house, you sometimes encounter stuff that makes you uncomfortable. Your overly dramatic blog post is not going to change this.
 
2013-01-19 01:34:51 PM  

Smock Pot: I don't know why women keep trying to tell men what it's like, because men are never going to get it. Ever. No matter what a woman says about this, no matter how many analogies she makes, no matter how she says it, men will respond with... pretty much everything in this thread. They will continue to act like untrained dogs around women they want to fark and shiat all over women they deem too old or too ugly to fark.


"The only thing worse than a bad looking man is a bad looking man with no money." -- Janet Jackson
 
2013-01-19 01:37:38 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Pincy: Show me the statistics that show that men are anywhere close to women in being sexually harassed and then we'll talk.

Here you go. (286 independent studies)

"This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "

Link

.


That list doesn't say what you say it does. Domestic violence != sexual harassment. Not that it's a good thing, but it doesn't support your point either.
 
2013-01-19 01:38:10 PM  

DerAppie: lordjupiter: The women were asked to rate the degree to which they felt sexually harassed.

And this is where everything breaks down.


Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature
Alan S. Miller Ph.D., Satoshi Kanazawa Ph.D.

Men sexually harass women because they are not sexist

An unfortunate consequence of the ever-growing number of women joining the labor force and working side by side with men is the increasing number of sexual harassment cases. Why must sexual harassment be a necessary consequence of the sexual integration of the workplace?

Psychologist Kingsley R. Browne identifies two types of sexual harassment cases: the quid pro quo ("You must sleep with me if you want to keep your job or be promoted") and the "hostile environment" (the workplace is deemed too sexualized for workers to feel safe and comfortable). While feminists and social scientists tend to explain sexual harassment in terms of "patriarchy" and other ideologies, Browne locates the ultimate cause of both types of sexual harassment in sex differences in mating strategies.

Studies demonstrate unequivocally that men are far more interested in short-term casual sex than women. In one now-classic study, 75 percent of undergraduate men approached by an attractive female stranger agreed to have sex with her; none of the women approached by an attractive male stranger did. Many men who would not date the stranger nonetheless agreed to have sex with her.

The quid pro quo types of harassment are manifestations of men's greater desire for short-term casual sex and their willingness to use any available means to achieve that goal. Feminists often claim that sexual harassment is "not about sex but about power;" Browne contends it is both-men using power to get sex. "To say that it is only about power makes no more sense than saying that bank robbery is only about guns, not about money."

Sexual harassment cases of the hostile-environment variety result from sex ...


Blahblahblah bunch of bullshiat.

You're only discussing half of the study you're citing. Half of it was opposite-sex approaches - women approaching men and men approaching women. What you're not discussing is when the attractive woman approached women or the man approached men. In all cases, people felt uncomfortable being approached by the man, because of the implicit unsafety of a man approaching you for sex. Both men and women were more receptive to being approached by a random woman for sex, because they felt safer. Overt sexual attention from a man carries an implicit threat that overt sexual attention from a woman doesn't convey. That right there - that's rape culture.
 
2013-01-19 01:38:36 PM  
Reminds me of this comment by Richard Dawkins, regarding Rebecca Watson:

"The man in the elevator didn't physically touch her, didn't attempt to bar her way out of the elevator, didn't even use foul language at her. He spoke some words to her. Just words. She no doubt replied with words. That was that. Words. Only words, and apparently quite polite words at that....Rebecca's feeling that the man's proposition was 'creepy' was her own interpretation of his behavior, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me."

The problem is that some people think the world would be a better place if words were more important than deeds, simply because it's easier to speak words than perform deeds. These people have attained sufficient political power to transform the system into one in which words are, in fact, treated by the law as more important than deeds, to the degree than even deeds like rape and murder can be excused if the magic words "I know that was wrong, and I apologize" are uttered by the criminal, while dissenting opinions are met with the "social justice" of permanent exile, if not "morally justified homicide."
 
2013-01-19 01:38:43 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Good comment. If you're leaving your house every day thinking that today might be your rape day, well, you need to go see a therapist. That's paranoia. If you can't tell the difference between various levels of unsolicited attention you might get from men, to the point where you believe Casual "Hi" == "You look nice" == Crude comment about your butt == Creepy guy leering at you == Unwelcome groping == OMFG RAPE ... there's psychiatric help available for you, too.

I'm sorry that when you walk down the street looking awesome (a look you spent lots of time achieving), you might attract some unwanted attention. 90% of it will just be in the guys' minds and never spoken out loud. Some of the guys will whisper to their bros "how hot that one is" and, yes, a small few will crudely make their feelings known out loud. As a male, I apologize that those guys are there, but they're there, what can I say? You know, when you walk outside your house, you sometimes encounter stuff that makes you uncomfortable. Your overly dramatic blog post is not going to change this.


If I would you I would write an advice book for women because I'm sure it would sell millions.
 
2013-01-19 01:38:48 PM  
Do wah diddy diddy dum diddy do
 
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