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(BBC)   This just in: The women depicted in Fantasy and Sci-fi art are drawn often in such a way that it almost seems like adolescent males are the target market or something   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 269
    More: Obvious, target markets, book cover, romantic interest, fantasy literature, female characters, original work, sexisms, beauties  
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5079 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-19 02:30:25 PM

fluffy2097: Max Awesome: Do you have any recommendations or links for those of us who are unfamiliar with this genre?

Battle Angel Alita was one of the first manga I ever read. It is full of combat, action, and blood and guts, along with beautiful stories about finding your true self, stories of love, loss, and letting go of the past.

I re-read it about once a year. The story and character development is so incredible I still tear up at parts of it.

Ghost in the Shell is more of the story of an elite special forces task force who uncover various nefarious schemes by terrorists and government agencies. Robots, powered armor, brain hacking, body swapping, and close quarters combat. There is less in the way of character development, because the story is about uncovering the various plots more then it is about the characters growing and changing. (Ghost in the shell 2: Innocence is a somewhat notable exception, which partially revolves around the mental state of Batou after what happens at the end of the first movie.)

Appleseed is a story about the distant future, where humanity has pretty much wiped itself out. To help prevent the complete destruction of humanity, scientists created Bioroids, genetically altered humans who do not have the capacity for strong emotion like love, hate, and rage. They act as a buffer between humans to keep society stable. Naturally, not all humans like this idea, and are afraid the bioroids will wipe out humanity entirely. City destroying battles ensue with giant suits of powered armor. There is also something of a love story between the Deunan and her point man Briarios, who lost his body in the war and is now a complete cyborg.

If you're looking for a philosophical sort of thing that will leave you scratching your head and wondering just what the hell is going on, I recommend Serial Experiments Lain. It's a story that takes place in "present day, present time" and begins when a little girl named Lain begins getting e-mails from classmates who ...


Brilliant - thanks for the recommendations.
 
2013-01-19 03:45:00 PM

Jim_Callahan: Theaetetus: We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?

I take it you either don't read comics at all or have someone else buy them for you. Otherwise you'd probably have heard of Namor, who is bare-chested and whose entire uniform consists of a codpiece:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 471x726]

Admittedly, there is more cleavage on female uniforms because it's actually been compatible with female fashion longer than it has with male, but actually a lot of male character designs for characters originating in the 70s/80s or earlier used it as shorthand for virility as well:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 520x799]
(OK, so this was after they changed it to a vest, my GIS skills are bad, I'm sorry)

There was actually an entire aesthetic movement called "camp" that emphasized male secondary sexual characteristics in art/performance and de-emphasized female. The most recent example I can pull up offhand is the Batman and Robin film. You might know it as the one with nipples on the bat-suit, but if you think a bit longer you might realize that a lot of the female costumes were fairly low on cleavage (freeze's minion was in a parka even in scenes that weren't particularly cold, iirc)

//This isn't probably an argument you want to get into on this particular forum, by the way, if you actually want to 'win', because any example you can think of has probably been done at some point without a trace of irony, and a lot of us read the damned things.
//Though, if you want to learn a lot of vaguely uncomfortable things about comics or exploitation media in general...


When did Freddy Mercury kill Spider Man?
 
2013-01-20 01:48:11 AM

fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.


Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.
 
2013-01-20 02:13:48 AM

ColdFusion: fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.

Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.


Assume makes an ass of you and me. Try not to do it too much.

They've also been using the "kids seeing women in comic books will make them see real women as objects and disrespect them" card, which is of equal stupidity as the "video games make kids violent" argument.
 
2013-01-20 05:13:11 AM
i1172.photobucket.com

farking feminists try to ruin everything that men and boys enjoy, its a full on hate movement. tomorrow i am going to fap a few times to chicks who have had their clits removed just to spite them.
 
2013-01-20 05:30:13 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: ColdFusion: fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.

Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.

Assume makes an ass of you and me. Try not to do it too much.

They've also been using the "kids seeing women in comic books will make them see real women as objects and disrespect them" card, which is of equal stupidity as the "video games make kids violent" argument.


Luckily, I did not assume, didn't even use the word.

For all the people complaining about how comics might do this and might do that, not a single law proposed. Just a lot of biatching on the internet, unlike the actual real-life attempts to do something about banning violent video games. Huh. Fancy that.

Do you go into Apple threads and tell people to stop getting their panties in a bunch over Apple products because they're ripping on the ridiculously overpriced hardware? Oooh, lemme guess, you go into Politics threads and tell people that "The Libz are teh scared" because they're mocking some Republican for spewing some derpy thing.
 
2013-01-20 05:42:48 PM

mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: Change what?

Here's a good start to get background information: Link

It's not just comics. You make it seem like I'm attacking your precious comic books. I read comics.  So does my wife and so do a lot of my female friends.  It's geek culture in general.  There are so many other media where the same problem exists.  I usually focus on table top RPGs, and if you read the previous posts, you may have noticed that Mike Chewbacca and I were talking about it.

It does affect real life. When a woman walks into a hobby store and sees that most of the products are aimed at objectifying women, it can be degrading. It teaches people that it's acceptable.  In comics, female characters are usually the ones who wear sexy, revealing costumes that have nothing to do with their character.  Female characters are usually posed in a porn star pose. I've heard complaints that only beautiful women are created, and you rarely seen average or ugly, but in comic books, that's usually true for all the characters, so in my opinion, it balances out. However, in RPGs, it doesn't.  For men, you can find an array of ugly, average, and hot men in various styles and cultures. However, when women are depicted, they're almost always hot and sexy, wearing revealing clothing.  Or when you have plot lines in fantastic comics (and other media) that simply use women as part of the plot without actually caring about them. Like in the Batman comic, "The Killer Joke" where Barbara Gorden was kidnapped, paralyzed, and degraded as a plot hook for the male characters, and then she was forgotten about. Before that even happened, though, Moore asked DC for permission, and the exact quote he got in response was, "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."

It's not that some comics are bad and some are good. It's that it is so prevalent among geek culture that it's an issue.  And I don't really know what to do about it, except raise awareness and simply talk about it.


Go talk about it in this thread, where skimpy girls in impractical outfits contorting themselves is being constantly applauded
 
2013-01-20 06:32:38 PM

fluffy2097: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: Change what?

Here's a good start to get background information: Link

It's not just comics. You make it seem like I'm attacking your precious comic books. I read comics.  So does my wife and so do a lot of my female friends.  It's geek culture in general.  There are so many other media where the same problem exists.  I usually focus on table top RPGs, and if you read the previous posts, you may have noticed that Mike Chewbacca and I were talking about it.

It does affect real life. When a woman walks into a hobby store and sees that most of the products are aimed at objectifying women, it can be degrading. It teaches people that it's acceptable.  In comics, female characters are usually the ones who wear sexy, revealing costumes that have nothing to do with their character.  Female characters are usually posed in a porn star pose. I've heard complaints that only beautiful women are created, and you rarely seen average or ugly, but in comic books, that's usually true for all the characters, so in my opinion, it balances out. However, in RPGs, it doesn't.  For men, you can find an array of ugly, average, and hot men in various styles and cultures. However, when women are depicted, they're almost always hot and sexy, wearing revealing clothing.  Or when you have plot lines in fantastic comics (and other media) that simply use women as part of the plot without actually caring about them. Like in the Batman comic, "The Killer Joke" where Barbara Gorden was kidnapped, paralyzed, and degraded as a plot hook for the male characters, and then she was forgotten about. Before that even happened, though, Moore asked DC for permission, and the exact quote he got in response was, "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."

It's not that some comics are bad and some are good. It's that it is so prevalent among geek culture that it's an issue.  And I don't really know what to do about it, except raise awareness and simply talk about it.


Go talk about it in th ...


OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!
 
2013-01-20 07:55:50 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!


I know right? We should just call them all fat ugly whores I guess...
 
2013-01-20 08:33:34 PM

fluffy2097: Keizer_Ghidorah: OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!

I know right? We should just call them all fat ugly whores I guess...


And that they've been brainwashed by the male-dominated culture to demean themselves for attention, since American men see only boobs and don't care about personality.
 
2013-01-20 08:59:22 PM
You guys win. Women don't need a positive influence in geek culture. They should just shut up and accept the fact that they'll be marginalized and stay out of the geek's world. You're right. I give up.
 
2013-01-20 09:20:54 PM

mgshamster: You guys win. Women don't need a positive influence in geek culture. They should just shut up and accept the fact that they'll be marginalized and stay out of the geek's world. You're right. I give up.


I'd like you to point out whenever any of us said that. I'd also like to point out that there already are positive female influences in "geek culture". I'd also like to point out how your views of this topic are "Because fictional women are drawn better-looking and more flexible than real women, then boys will hate real women and treat them as objects and garbage".
 
2013-01-20 10:01:15 PM

fluffy2097: Stay away from shiat like elfen lied, chobits, lucky star, and pretty much anything that revolves around high school life.


What about High School of the Dead?
/joking, it wasn't the best.

If suggesting anime, here's what I've been working my way through. There are updated and larger lists of this online as well.
 
2013-01-20 10:18:06 PM

fluffy2097: If you like vampires, Check out Hellsing.


Specifically Hellsing Ultimate. They finished their last (10th) episode late last year to finish the anime. Was great.
If into vampires also check out Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust and Trinity Blood
 
2013-01-20 10:21:28 PM
Sorry for multiposting, but realized that imgur resized the image, making it useless.
Original
 
2013-01-20 10:26:45 PM
For fark's sake, women think tall(er)/muscular men are sexy and men think small(er)/curvy women are sexy.

Of course, there are many other viewpoints and opinions. However, the majority rules and everyone, together, creates the memes behind these marketing images. It is not the plot of one gender looking to undermine the other gender. It is everyone and the choices they make to satisfy their horny urges and validate themselves against another.

Take responsibility for yourselves if you have a problem with sexy women or muscular men in pictures on the cover of entertainment media. Otherwise, quit whining and move on with your life to more important things.
 
2013-01-21 01:02:11 AM

swahnhennessy: A lot of defensiveness in this thread.

God, I hope many of you are being purposely obtuse.


A vocal minority of people here get really creepy and angry when gender is discussed. I'm convinced most of that group is socially inept and probably afraid of women in real life.
 
2013-01-21 10:55:29 AM
I think the female supremacists are tapping out too early. Why not go after the root of the problem.

0.tqn.com

Here is a 4th century BCE vase that depicts the horrible rape of a woman by a Centaur with a violent response by a muscular Heracles.

Women are obviously being objectified by this myth. Let's stop the madness.
 
2013-01-21 08:38:15 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: I think the female supremacists are tapping out too early. Why not go after the root of the problem.

[0.tqn.com image 850x650]

Here is a 4th century BCE vase that depicts the horrible rape of a woman by a Centaur with a violent response by a muscular Heracles.

Women are obviously being objectified by this myth. Let's stop the madness.


How can the centaur rape her if she's on his back, and why is Hercules about to stab the woman in the ass? Also, the centaur's front human hips are broken.
 
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