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(BBC)   This just in: The women depicted in Fantasy and Sci-fi art are drawn often in such a way that it almost seems like adolescent males are the target market or something   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 269
    More: Obvious, target markets, book cover, romantic interest, fantasy literature, female characters, original work, sexisms, beauties  
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5098 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



269 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-01-18 09:20:55 AM  
I was always a fan of this one.
rawrgg.com
 
2013-01-18 09:20:55 AM  
I'm not going to jump to conclusions. I need to do a complete survey of the fantasy art in question before weighing in with my own opinion.

I'll be in my bunk.
 
2013-01-18 09:26:30 AM  
Dear god!  Do you know what this means?!  Adolescent males are reading books.

True, it is ridiculous with the poses. What about the girls that are getting off to the different gender portrayals?  Particularly, to the other women in those positions?  Or is that hot or something?

Have you seen the covers of the books that aim towards the middle aged female demographic?
 
2013-01-18 09:30:20 AM  
Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

i76.photobucket.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-18 09:31:48 AM  
Makh: Have you seen the covers of the books that aim towards the middle aged female demographic?

I accidentally read a romance novel once because it had a non-Fabio cover. But it was British, not American genre-bound crap, so it doesn't count against my manhood.
 
2013-01-18 09:56:07 AM  
Adolescent male is redundant.
 
2013-01-18 10:01:02 AM  

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


He has some of those too.

Also, women are usually scantily clad on those covers as well. They are called bodice rippers because of that.
 
2013-01-18 10:08:16 AM  

serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]


Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.
 
2013-01-18 10:16:46 AM  

I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.


I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?
 
2013-01-18 10:21:48 AM  

serial_crusher: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?


In the case of that pic, I think it is true.  In the case of almost every super-heroine not named Black Widow, the female is depicted in lingerie.
 
2013-01-18 10:24:15 AM  
 
2013-01-18 10:25:20 AM  
They're saying all this started because of Boris Vallejo?  Ok...I can see that.
 
2013-01-18 10:25:22 AM  
I prefer to think of their target audience as stunted men-children.
 
2013-01-18 10:30:46 AM  

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


Exactly:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 10:39:36 AM  

UberDave: They're saying all this started because of Boris Vallejo?  Ok...I can see that.


and Ironically, Boris drew the male form just as scantily clad and unrealisitic as the female one.  His male models were the professional body builders who hung out in Venice beach, including a young pre-Mr. Universe Arnold Schwarzenegger.  There is a reason Arnie looks like he was born to play Conan
 
2013-01-18 10:50:44 AM  

I_C_Weener: Adolescent male is redundant.


I believe we're done here
 
2013-01-18 10:55:58 AM  

serial_crusher: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?


It's kinda a moot point in a way. Their male bodies are still ridiculously over-idealized. (If they were able to draw their junk, I'm sure that would also be idealized to the point of absurdity.)
 
2013-01-18 11:05:57 AM  
Marketing is sexist. Next.
 
2013-01-18 11:13:32 AM  
I dress in women's clothes ironically. To prove a point.  Seriously, that all it is.

It puts the lotion on its skin ...
 
2013-01-18 11:19:07 AM  

I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.


But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
3.bp.blogspot.com

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
upload.wikimedia.org

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.
 
2013-01-18 11:19:22 AM  

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


This.
 
2013-01-18 11:22:24 AM  
FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.
 
2013-01-18 11:22:29 AM  

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


What are you talking about? Look at Batman with those bulging thighs and taut buttocks, getting ready to go down on his knees in a back alley for some rough trade with Green Arrow.
 
2013-01-18 11:24:41 AM  
The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

assets.sbnation.com

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.

assets.sbnation.com assets.sbnation.com

Dear Rob:  Yes, women have vaginas.  There's no need to actually outline them.  Also, we don't always stand on tiptoe.

/Although, it's a valid argument if you say he's absolutely awful at any anatomy.  Especially feet.
 
2013-01-18 11:25:00 AM  
Its more lazy than sexist. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, GREG LAND.
 
2013-01-18 11:25:52 AM  
From the Rick Romero reporting institution...
 
2013-01-18 11:32:24 AM  

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


You see a woman with a bloodied sword, glaring at someone off-screen while doing the "techno-viking point" to be "submissive"?   I hope you've worked out a good safeword for that kind of play.
 
2013-01-18 11:33:40 AM  
Hah! He did it for one of his own books, too. And possibly it's what started him on this.

www.sff.net
 
2013-01-18 11:36:47 AM  
The guy in the article has way too much time on his hands.

His soft soft hands....
 
2013-01-18 11:39:51 AM  

Disposable Rob: FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.


Hey, hey, hey...he's not really that overweight.
 
2013-01-18 11:40:50 AM  
This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."
 
2013-01-18 11:47:14 AM  

WinoRhino: This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."


how would the friend know? he's doing D&D art in public.
 
2013-01-18 11:48:21 AM  
I hope these researchers never get around to looking at video games.
 
2013-01-18 11:53:08 AM  
FTFA:

Many science fiction and fantasy readers are disappointed to encounter everyday sexism in a medium that is supposed to offer an escape.

Bullshait
 
2013-01-18 11:55:41 AM  
Whoops I forgot something. Disappointment does occur if Rob Liefeld did the cover.

Sorry
 
2013-01-18 11:59:13 AM  
Reminds me of XXX: State of the Union (quite possibly the worst movie I've seen in a theater). The male commandos wore normal stuff: night vision goggles, body armor, lots of gear and pouches. The female commando wore a skin-tight leather bodysuit.
 
2013-01-18 12:00:46 PM  
i38.tinypic.com

really? nobody?
 
2013-01-18 12:05:28 PM  
This was drawn by a female friend of mine. She likes female characters to be sexy (and she's not a lesbian). People shouldn't assume that women don't want fantasy (or game) characters to be attractive.
 
2013-01-18 12:09:24 PM  
And all the male characters look like they spray their clothes on out of a can.
 
2013-01-18 12:09:46 PM  
derp. wrong thread.
 
2013-01-18 12:13:12 PM  

Enfenestrate: And all the male characters look like they spray their clothes on out of a can.


I should clarify. In the the more fantasy stuff the guys wear loincloths and go shirtless. It's almost seems like lonely 40-something housewives are the target market or something.
 
2013-01-18 12:23:26 PM  

Magorn: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.

You see a woman with a bloodied sword, glaring at someone off-screen while doing the "techno-viking point" to be "submissive"?   I hope you've worked out a good safeword for that kind of play.


I think that would count as the latter category: "sexualized position"

That woman has both her ass and her chest towards the viewer, a position that's fairly difficult to do in real life.  For example, this martial artist and contortionist tried to imitate it, and couldn't.
 
2013-01-18 12:27:11 PM  
Holy shiat! You mean that in our fantasy we want men to be powerful warriors that are forces to be reckoned with and our damsels to be sexy? Young men want to be white knights and the princess they rescue to be as beautiful as she is grateful? Let's face it. No one is going to risk life and limb to rescue an uggo. That is why only cute women that go missing make the news!

This is outrageous! Everyone knows that no woman ever, like 0.0%, ever pictured themselves as the damsel in distress and a powerful and courageous man coming to save her. Women do not pretend to be princesses, hell, they don't even like princesses, which accounts for the universal hatred of Diana.

When will the world realize that there are no differences between the wants and motivations of men and women and no need for different marketing techniques that apply to them separately?
 
2013-01-18 12:27:26 PM  

serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]


I was always impressed by that one with Psylocke jumping down on someone with something that looks like a weird 3rd leg sticking up. Can't find a copy of it at the moment, but I'm sure someone will provide.
 
2013-01-18 12:44:01 PM  
This thread needs more Hawkeye Initiative.
 
2013-01-18 12:45:33 PM  
I like my whores illustrated and this clown is ruining EVERYTHING!!!
 
2013-01-18 12:47:17 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 12:48:04 PM  
To be honest, I stopped caring after it was pointed out that it's impossible to draw a sexually appealing woman without being sexist, because being sexually appealing is inherently submitting to the male desires that define sexual appeal (or something similar - the derp level in that class had gotten so far that I sort of zoned out).

So if it's impossible anyway, then who cares? Draw and enjoy what appeals to you, and everyone else can go fark themselves if they don't like it.
 
2013-01-18 12:49:26 PM  
Codex Chief Executive Officer Peter Hildick-Smith remains puzzled why science fiction and fantasy publishers sell sexualised covers.

Actual literary Sci-Fi and Fantasy do no such thing. However, pulp subgenre books for every genre will do literally anything to catch the casual viewer's eye and get them to pick the book up. Some of the worst offenders are actually Detective/Mystery novels, even the ones ostensibly written for women.

Here's the difference:

Hard SciFi cover (space opera):
upload.wikimedia.org

Pulp Scifi cover (space opera):
2.bp.blogspot.com
//Though, in all fairness, the pulps have had a large influence on more adult-ish works, so there is some merit to the "it's just a tradition" argument.
 
2013-01-18 01:07:37 PM  
Oh, for pity's sake. Everyone likes boobs.

Women would be MORE upset if men started ignoring their looks.
 
2013-01-18 01:23:17 PM  
Oh, the poor wommenz. Always the weak victim.
 
2013-01-18 01:23:55 PM  
The skimpy clothes are a little annoying. The completely impractical armor they usually put them in is much more annoying to me. That said, he really not helping with those pics. When I see them I don't reconsider my vies on sexism, I wonder how drunk he was when he decided it was a good idea to dress-up like a chick and imitate book covers, without even shaving.
 
2013-01-18 01:25:14 PM  
Actually, I'd like to revise my earlier statement and just repeat this one, in its entirety.

i115.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-18 01:29:04 PM  

Oerath: The skimpy clothes are a little annoying. The completely impractical armor they usually put them in is much more annoying to me. That said, he really not helping with those pics. When I see them I don't reconsider my vies on sexism, I wonder how drunk he was when he decided it was a good idea to dress-up like a chick and imitate book covers, without even shaving.


The armor is always what got to me the most.  Boob armor? Please. That would concentrate a blow to the chest, not deflect it.  The other thing that bothers me is impossible poses, like twisting a woman's spine so much just so they can show off her ass and her chest at the same time.  Hell, a contortionist tried to mimic the pose, and was unable to.
 
2013-01-18 01:31:28 PM  

FightDirector: To be honest, I stopped caring after it was pointed out that it's impossible to draw a sexually appealing woman without being sexist, because being sexually appealing is inherently submitting to the male desires that define sexual appeal (or something similar - the derp level in that class had gotten so far that I sort of zoned out).


Let's be honest... You zoned out long before the class even started.

Plus, you're wrong.
Sexualized:
fc07.deviantart.net

Not sexualized:
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 01:32:47 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 01:33:08 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]

Exactly:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 498x393]


Indeed:
dvdbash.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-18 01:34:33 PM  

Theaetetus: The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


Sexism is essentially the belief that you can determine things about someone's character from their sex alone. Men=power and women=sex are both stereotypes and are both sexist. You can obviously make an argument for positive vs. negative stereotypes, but saying they're not both sexist is like saying that, "black people steal" is racist, but "all asians are smart" isn't racist.
 
2013-01-18 01:35:44 PM  

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


Ignoring the fact that that woman you linked is hardly "submissive"... it's almost like men and women find different things attractive, as if that were the very basis of heterosexuality. Weird.
 
2013-01-18 01:36:21 PM  

brigid_fitch: The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

[assets.sbnation.com image 185x517]

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.


Hi there!

ft.trillian.im
 
2013-01-18 01:39:49 PM  

NateAsbestos: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.

Ignoring the fact that that woman you linked is hardly "submissive"... it's almost like men and women find different things attractive, as if that were the very basis of heterosexuality. Weird.


Ignoring the fact that you don't know what the word "or" means, the woman depicted has her spine twisted so far that a contortionist can't mimic it, all for the purpose of being able to show off her tits and ass at the same time.
 
2013-01-18 01:39:55 PM  

LargeCanine: Oh, for pity's sake. Everyone likes boobs.

Women would be MORE upset if men started ignoring their looks.


It's a vicious trap, isn't it?

"STOP STARING AT MY BOOBS, I have a brain too you brute!"

...

"He never even looks at me! It's like all I do is go to work and earn money and come home, he makes small talk at dinner, and then spends my hard work on beer and TV!"
 
2013-01-18 01:41:54 PM  

rocky_howard: brigid_fitch: The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

[assets.sbnation.com image 185x517]

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.

Hi there!

[ft.trillian.im image 453x700]


While leaving the rest of her body where it is, move her lower back about 6 inches closer to the bed, and then you'd be more accurate to Liefeld 's drawing.
 
2013-01-18 01:42:35 PM  

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


THANK YOU!

Anyone who thinks the argument ends with "Men have muscles/are idealized!" is missing 50% of the point. And it's not JUST how women are posed, but how they're framed in the shot/panel. Sexualization goes FAR beyond mere appearance.
 
2013-01-18 01:44:06 PM  

mgshamster: Ignoring the fact that you don't know what the word "or" means, the woman depicted has her spine twisted so far that a contortionist can't mimic it, all for the purpose of being able to show off her tits and ass at the same time.


My working theory is that they're are all fast rotating action shots and that for some reason, comic artists draw with a rolling shutter.
 
2013-01-18 01:46:34 PM  

mgshamster: rocky_howard: brigid_fitch: The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

[assets.sbnation.com image 185x517]

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.

Hi there!

[ft.trillian.im image 453x700]

While leaving the rest of her body where it is, move her lower back about 6 inches closer to the bed, and then you'd be more accurate to Liefeld 's drawing.


Also, you'll notice that in the natural pose (ie, the photo of the real woman), you can only see one butt cheek and one of her breasts.  In the Liefeld drawing, the woman's spine is twisted so that you can see both butt cheeks and both breasts, while at the same time being able to pop both her ass and chest out.
 
2013-01-18 01:47:44 PM  

mgshamster: Oerath: The skimpy clothes are a little annoying. The completely impractical armor they usually put them in is much more annoying to me. That said, he really not helping with those pics. When I see them I don't reconsider my vies on sexism, I wonder how drunk he was when he decided it was a good idea to dress-up like a chick and imitate book covers, without even shaving.

The armor is always what got to me the most.  Boob armor? Please. That would concentrate a blow to the chest, not deflect it.  The other thing that bothers me is impossible poses, like twisting a woman's spine so much just so they can show off her ass and her chest at the same time.  Hell, a contortionist tried to mimic the pose, and was unable to.


What real boob armor may look like:
www.sol-invictus.org.ukimg.auctiva.com
OTOH what an actual suit of armor worn by a real woman in battle looked like:
cdn.japandailypress.com

You see that short skirt?...totally sexualizing
 
2013-01-18 01:48:44 PM  
i76.photobucket.com

/what headline writer might look like.
 
2013-01-18 01:49:15 PM  

Current Resident: Because People in power are Stupid: kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]

Exactly:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 498x393]

Indeed:
[dvdbash.files.wordpress.com image 685x1000]


I'm deeply offended, and even shocked...by that sword.  No true scotsman, or ANY swordsman for that matter would be caught dead using a blade that ridiculous
 
2013-01-18 01:49:18 PM  

NateAsbestos: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.

Ignoring the fact that that woman you linked is hardly "submissive"... it's almost like men and women find different things attractive, as if that were the very basis of heterosexuality. Weird.


Huh. Second person who doesn't know the word "or". Did you go to the same school?
 
2013-01-18 01:50:32 PM  

flux: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 800x529]


Ah, Boris Vallejo, the God King of fantasy art. And must not forget about his equally talented wife Julie Bell.
 
2013-01-18 01:51:24 PM  
www.motifake.com
 
2013-01-18 01:53:05 PM  

Ed Grubermann: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 420x640]


Now this panel illustrates the danger of using Male models for a romance book cover, as many of them are gay, as this guy clearly is.  The hot chick is wrapping herself around him, and he's not even looking at her, but staring off into the middle distance with a "The shiat I have to put upp with just to pay the bills" expression on his face
 
2013-01-18 01:53:54 PM  

FightDirector: Actually, I'd like to revise my earlier statement and just repeat this one, in its entirety.

[i115.photobucket.com image 804x801]


Would've clicked "Like" at that comment.
 
2013-01-18 01:55:39 PM  

FlashHarry: [www.motifake.com image 640x574]


Sigh....loved that comic.

/Also: FARK DC~!
//The New 52 sucks monkey balls~!
 
2013-01-18 01:59:37 PM  

Magorn: mgshamster: Oerath: The skimpy clothes are a little annoying. The completely impractical armor they usually put them in is much more annoying to me. That said, he really not helping with those pics. When I see them I don't reconsider my vies on sexism, I wonder how drunk he was when he decided it was a good idea to dress-up like a chick and imitate book covers, without even shaving.

The armor is always what got to me the most.  Boob armor? Please. That would concentrate a blow to the chest, not deflect it.  The other thing that bothers me is impossible poses, like twisting a woman's spine so much just so they can show off her ass and her chest at the same time.  Hell, a contortionist tried to mimic the pose, and was unable to.

What real boob armor may look like:
[www.sol-invictus.org.uk image 511x413][img.auctiva.com image 251x299]
OTOH what an actual suit of armor worn by a real woman in battle looked like:
[cdn.japandailypress.com image 234x420]

You see that short skirt?...totally sexualizing


Those aren't that bad.  The one on the far left might cause some trouble when swinging a sword to the chest, and direct the sword inwards instead of away.  There are some that are particularly bad: link

As for the Japanese haidate, I doubt you'd see that worn with out additional armor on the legs.  Compare that to comic book or fantasy armor, and the "skirt" might be the only thing she wears, besides her armored bra.
 
2013-01-18 02:00:49 PM  
dreamworlds.ru
Not sexualized

images.comiccollectorlive.com
Sexualized
 
2013-01-18 02:07:47 PM  

Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized


Alright, so... are we talking strictly about sexualized poses or also sexualized character design and sexualized clothing here? If it's just the poses, sure. If it's the outfit, the top one could go either way. If it's character design? C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.

It's the perfect example of your power/sex argument from earlier.
 
2013-01-18 02:12:40 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized

Alright, so... are we talking strictly about sexualized poses or also sexualized character design and sexualized clothing here? If it's just the poses, sure. If it's the outfit, the top one could go either way. If it's character design? C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.

It's the perfect example of your power/sex argument from earlier.


Serious question: "why can't it be all 3 of those and more?"

Non serious question: "can someone merge this thread with the JLH thread?"
 
2013-01-18 02:16:01 PM  

mgshamster: While leaving the rest of her body where it is, move her lower back about 6 inches closer to the bed, and then you'd be more accurate to Liefeld 's drawing.


As a dyed in the wool capital L Liberal and long-time serial respecter of women, I'm having a real hard time giving a shiat about this kind of stuff. Dude does drawing some people fap to. Not my cup of tea really but I'm having a hard time seeing his stuff as damaging or harmful to, well, anyone really. Not offensive in the least - I'm way more offended by the writing in the accompanying material than the art.
 
2013-01-18 02:16:59 PM  

Magorn: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.

You see a woman with a bloodied sword, glaring at someone off-screen while doing the "techno-viking point" to be "submissive"?   I hope you've worked out a good safeword for that kind of play.


One could argue that it's sexist because while the woman might be a total badass who just killed someone, her pose tells you she'd still let you fark her brains out from behind.

And I will fight anyone who says bad things about Jim C. Hines! I have a great deal of respect for that man.
 
2013-01-18 02:19:00 PM  

JohnBigBootay: mgshamster: While leaving the rest of her body where it is, move her lower back about 6 inches closer to the bed, and then you'd be more accurate to Liefeld 's drawing.

As a dyed in the wool capital L Liberal and long-time serial respecter of women, I'm having a real hard time giving a shiat about this kind of stuff. Dude does drawing some people fap to. Not my cup of tea really but I'm having a hard time seeing his stuff as damaging or harmful to, well, anyone really. Not offensive in the least - I'm way more offended by the writing in the accompanying material than the art.


Got an example?
 
2013-01-18 02:19:19 PM  

Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized


If I wasn't 100% convinced that you were a female before -you just verified the assumption. Neither image is "sexualized", the top representing the invulnerability of She-Hulk and the bottom being a parody of the famous Vanity Fair cover.

If you are trying to moralize about sexualized images in comic books please explain how they are okay on covers of Romance Novels but not okay in comic books. That should be entertaining.

Also, since you Female-Supremacists are always pushing for Mackinnon like restrictions on the first amendment -consider the history of this organization:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-01-18 02:20:26 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: One could argue that it's sexist because while the woman might be a total badass who just killed someone, her pose tells you she'd still let you fark her brains out from behind.


I thought the cameraman just snuck up on her, and she was startled.
 
2013-01-18 02:20:59 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]

Exactly:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 498x393]


"Bestselling Author of Wisconsin Whore-Dog"?! Did I read that right?
 
2013-01-18 02:21:16 PM  

FlashHarry: [www.motifake.com image 640x574]


power girl:
wears shirt with cleavage window.
complains about people looking at cleavage.
 
2013-01-18 02:21:31 PM  

rocky_howard: brigid_fitch: The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

[assets.sbnation.com image 185x517]

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.

Hi there!

[ft.trillian.im image 453x700]


Yeah, almost identical:
img22.imageshack.us

(Q&D, and surprisingly, not exaggerated enough)
assets.sbnation.com
Now as much as I enjoy looking at that picture of the shapely woman in the pink dress. you can see that she doesn't really support your argument that Liefeld doesn't suck.
Please find another way to White-Knight him.
 
2013-01-18 02:22:40 PM  
Goddamnit so much
imageshack.us
 
2013-01-18 02:24:18 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized

Alright, so... are we talking strictly about sexualized poses or also sexualized character design and sexualized clothing here? If it's just the poses, sure.


That's what I was talking about, yes.

If it's the outfit, the top one could go either way.

We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?
cdn.smosh.com

No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

If it's character design? C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.

It's the perfect example of your power/sex argument from earlier.


Sure, and you could even go farther and point out that Hulk has a name of his own, while She-Hulk is only named relative to him. Or consider Superman vs. Supergirl or Power Girl, Batman vs. Batgirl, Aquaman vs. Aquagirl, Bulletman vs. Bulletgirl, Hawkman vs. Hawkgirl, and of course, the most retarded of them all...
upload.wikimedia.org
Thor Girl.
 
2013-01-18 02:24:48 PM  

Colour_out_of_Space: Goddamnit so much
[imageshack.us image 453x700]


Needs more pouches.
 
2013-01-18 02:24:56 PM  

Colour_out_of_Space: Goddamnit so much
[imageshack.us image 453x700]


What happened? I can see both pics in the other post just fine.
 
2013-01-18 02:27:59 PM  

Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.


In b4 someone posts that one guy who's name I forget and lounges around in a speedo staring at the reader.
 
2013-01-18 02:28:21 PM  

mahuika: kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]

He has some of those too.

Also, women are usually scantily clad on those covers as well. They are called bodice rippers because of that.


I believe 'bodice ripper' refers to a subset of romance novels in which sex is often depicted as quasi-rape.
 
2013-01-18 02:28:31 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: If I wasn't 100% convinced that you were a female before -you just verified the assumption.


Well, you know what they say about assumptions, ass.

If you are trying to moralize about sexualized images in comic books please explain how they are okay on covers of Romance Novels but not okay in comic books. That should be entertaining.

Which part, the one where you make another incorrect assumption?

Also, since you Female-Supremacists are always pushing for Mackinnon like restrictions on the first amendment -consider the history of this organization:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 172x209]


Hooray, a third incorrect assumption! That's three strikes, and you're back to troll land.
 
2013-01-18 02:31:30 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

In b4 someone posts that one guy who's name I forget and lounges around in a speedo staring at the reader.


3.bp.blogspot.com
Prince Namor is not amused.
 
2013-01-18 02:35:09 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Heh, in their 1954 regulations, this was one of them:

Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.
 
2013-01-18 02:39:55 PM  

Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

In b4 someone posts that one guy who's name I forget and lounges around in a speedo staring at the reader.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 471x726]
Prince Namor is not amused.


Namor is the comic personification of that 'Do I turn my ass or my cock to you while passing in a crowded aisle' scene from Fight Club.

/and again, as pointed out earlier, it's a dominant power display.
//as also pointed out, it's still sexist within the definition, just like claiming asians are good at math is racist. It may not be worth getting worked up over, but it still is.
 
2013-01-18 02:40:01 PM  

Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized

Alright, so... are we talking strictly about sexualized poses or also sexualized character design and sexualized clothing here? If it's just the poses, sure.

That's what I was talking about, yes.

If it's the outfit, the top one could go either way.

We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?
[cdn.smosh.com image 600x374]

No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

If it's character design? C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.

It's the perfect example of your power/sex argument from earlier.

Sure, and you could even go farther and point out that Hulk has a name of his own, while She-Hulk is only named relative to him. Or consider Superman vs. Supergirl or Power Girl, Batman vs. Batgirl, Aquaman vs. Aquagirl, Bulletman vs. Bulletgirl, Hawkman vs. Hawkgirl, and of course, the most retarded of them all...
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x352]
Thor Girl.


Great post! Where we're you the 14 other times we've hard this argument in the last month?

Also, Thor Girl? Are farking kidding me??? Could they not just crack open a Bulfinch's Mythology and grab the first female Norse name they encountered??? Hell, they could have just used Hera and the stories could have been about what an asskicker Thor's mom was in her youth.
 
2013-01-18 02:40:49 PM  
What the heck is wrong with a bit of sexual objectification? It sells books.

But it should be done equally, with heroic males presenting their butts and chests on covers in order to attract the female and gay eye - and our money.

Frank Frazetta was a master of this - even when his male figures were wearing the skimpiest of loincloths and their perfectly sculpted buttocks and bulging crotches were the obvious focal point of his paintings the men still managed to look like fierce warriors.

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

Even many of his female figures - while essentially nude - were often dynamic, strongly muscled and looked like they could easily beat anybody's ass.

i42.photobucket.com

Today's artists need to learn to strike a similar balance.
 
2013-01-18 02:41:39 PM  

mgshamster: Colour_out_of_Space: Goddamnit so much
[imageshack.us image 453x700]

What happened? I can see both pics in the other post just fine.


Hmm. The hotlinked one shows for me, but my poorly-done shop just shows an imageshack link. Weird.
 
2013-01-18 02:43:52 PM  

Max Awesome: What the heck is wrong with a bit of sexual objectification? It sells books.

But it should be done equally, with heroic males presenting their butts and chests on covers in order to attract the female and gay eye - and our money.

Frank Frazetta was a master of this - even when his male figures were wearing the skimpiest of loincloths and their perfectly sculpted buttocks and bulging crotches were the obvious focal point of his paintings the men still managed to look like fierce warriors.

[i42.photobucket.com image 728x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 749x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 850x1006]

Even many of his female figures - while essentially nude - were often dynamic, strongly muscled and looked like they could easily beat anybody's ass.

[i42.photobucket.com image 765x1024]

Today's artists need to learn to strike a similar balance.


Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.
 
2013-01-18 02:48:11 PM  

Max Awesome: What the heck is wrong with a bit of sexual objectification? It sells books.

But it should be done equally, with heroic males presenting their butts and chests on covers in order to attract the female and gay eye - and our money.

Frank Frazetta was a master of this - even when his male figures were wearing the skimpiest of loincloths and their perfectly sculpted buttocks and bulging crotches were the obvious focal point of his paintings the men still managed to look like fierce warriors.

[i42.photobucket.com image 728x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 749x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 850x1006]

Even many of his female figures - while essentially nude - were often dynamic, strongly muscled and looked like they could easily beat anybody's ass.

[i42.photobucket.com image 765x1024]

Today's artists need to learn to strike a similar balance.


Exactly. Some of the trolls in this thread think that if you object to the way women are portrayed in comics, then you must want everyone to be in burlap sacks or some shiat. It's like they believe that every issue must be black and white, with the only possible positions being the ones at the extreme edges: either women can only appear in highly sexualized positions, or all comics must be about the patriarchy-destroying efforts of the Manhater Squad and deviation will result in jail time.
 
2013-01-18 02:49:14 PM  
This lady would like to exchange words, possibly bullets with the author.


/or she just might rip him limb from limb with her cybernetic body.
//whatever works.
 
2013-01-18 02:49:26 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Also, Thor Girl? Are farking kidding me??? Could they not just crack open a Bulfinch's Mythology and grab the first female Norse name they encountered??? Hell, they could have just used Hera and the stories could have been about what an asskicker Thor's mom was in her youth.


Knowing comics, Thor Girl could very well just be Thor, but a girl. I don't know, I was told that's happened to Loki before.

Mike Chewbacca: Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.


I don't think that's supposed to be pushed-up, but momentum from throwing her arm out while leaning a bit; mid-flop, if you will.

Then again, it looks like it could have been added as an afterthought too.
 
2013-01-18 02:49:57 PM  

Max Awesome: Frank Frazetta


I like his work.  I'm also a big fan of Luis Royo (most of his stuff is not safe for work, if you decide to Google him).

His work is very sexual, and he does both men and women.  For example: Second Circle (very NSFW) or Tangent (also very NSFW)
 
2013-01-18 02:51:31 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Max Awesome: What the heck is wrong with a bit of sexual objectification? It sells books.

But it should be done equally, with heroic males presenting their butts and chests on covers in order to attract the female and gay eye - and our money.

Frank Frazetta was a master of this - even when his male figures were wearing the skimpiest of loincloths and their perfectly sculpted buttocks and bulging crotches were the obvious focal point of his paintings the men still managed to look like fierce warriors.

[i42.photobucket.com image 728x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 749x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 850x1006]

Even many of his female figures - while essentially nude - were often dynamic, strongly muscled and looked like they could easily beat anybody's ass.

[i42.photobucket.com image 765x1024]

Today's artists need to learn to strike a similar balance.

Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.


Maybe they're just moving upwards in that shot.  Once she stops moving, they'll be back to normal.
 
2013-01-18 02:51:54 PM  
This lady would like to exchange words, possibly bullets with the author.
i.imgur.com
/or she just might rip him limb from limb with her cybernetic body.
//whatever works.
///fixed the imglink
 
2013-01-18 02:53:54 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Mike Chewbacca: Also, Thor Girl? Are farking kidding me??? Could they not just crack open a Bulfinch's Mythology and grab the first female Norse name they encountered??? Hell, they could have just used Hera and the stories could have been about what an asskicker Thor's mom was in her youth.

Knowing comics, Thor Girl could very well just be Thor, but a girl. I don't know, I was told that's happened to Loki before.


From Wiki: Tarene later transforms herself into an Asgardian goddess and becomes Thor's loyal ally, taking the name "Thor Girl" and the human identity of Jake Olson's "cousin" Tara.
 
2013-01-18 02:55:39 PM  

fluffy2097: This lady would like to exchange words, possibly bullets with the author.
[i.imgur.com image 850x909]
/or she just might rip him limb from limb with her cybernetic body.
//whatever works.
///fixed the imglink


No, she would probably shake his hand.
 
2013-01-18 02:55:58 PM  

mgshamster: Mike Chewbacca:
Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.

Maybe they're just moving upwards in that shot.  Once she stops moving, they'll be back to normal.


It could also be the wind. It's whipping their hair over in the same direction... Maybe it's like hurricane force, and blowing her tits sideways, too?

/What about their loin cloths, you ask? They're made of lead.
 
2013-01-18 02:58:17 PM  

Mike Chewbacca:
Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.


Yes, she's idealized, but that's not in itself a bad thing.

He sole purpose in that drawing is not to just be a passive sex object. She's pushing the male out of the way and charging towards the bitey dinosaur with her knife. Not something I've seen a lot of porn stars do.
 
2013-01-18 02:58:36 PM  

Theaetetus: mgshamster: Mike Chewbacca:
Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.

Maybe they're just moving upwards in that shot.  Once she stops moving, they'll be back to normal.

It could also be the wind. It's whipping their hair over in the same direction... Maybe it's like hurricane force, and blowing her tits sideways, too?

/What about their loin cloths, you ask? They're made of lead.


Hey, on Jurassic Earth, you need to watch out for rogue x-ray machines!
 
2013-01-18 02:58:37 PM  
OH GOD! SHES SO SEXUALIZED!
i.imgur.com
EVEN MORE PROOF THAT WOMEN IN ART ARE ONLY SEXUAL OBJECTS!

i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-18 02:58:38 PM  

Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: [dreamworlds.ru image 600x911]
Not sexualized

[images.comiccollectorlive.com image 369x567]
Sexualized

Alright, so... are we talking strictly about sexualized poses or also sexualized character design and sexualized clothing here? If it's just the poses, sure.

That's what I was talking about, yes.

If it's the outfit, the top one could go either way.

We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?


No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

If it's character design? C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.

It's the perfect example of your power/sex argument from earlier.

Sure, and you could even go farther and point out that Hulk has a name of his own, while She-Hulk is only named relative to him. Or consider Superman vs. Supergirl or Power Girl, Batman vs. Batgirl, Aquaman vs. Aquagirl, Bulletman vs. Bulletgirl, Hawkman vs. Hawkgirl, and of course, the most retarded of them all...

Thor Girl.


Judging from the blank space in the crotch region, I doubt she's Thor at all.
 
2013-01-18 02:59:11 PM  

Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Mike Chewbacca: Also, Thor Girl? Are farking kidding me??? Could they not just crack open a Bulfinch's Mythology and grab the first female Norse name they encountered??? Hell, they could have just used Hera and the stories could have been about what an asskicker Thor's mom was in her youth.

Knowing comics, Thor Girl could very well just be Thor, but a girl. I don't know, I was told that's happened to Loki before.

From Wiki: Tarene later transforms herself into an Asgardian goddess and becomes Thor's loyal ally, taking the name "Thor Girl" and the human identity of Jake Olson's "cousin" Tara.


I wasn't sure because I passed this on TVTropes while looking for examples of revealing male costu- PHRASING

In Earth X, Thor was transformed into a woman as another humility lesson given by his father, Odin. For no explained reason, this costume places Thor's usual metal discs on her breasts like cups, gives her Thigh-High Boots, and frames her figure with holes that show off every curve of her body. Remember, for all intents and purposes, this is a character that was once male. So that means either Thor decided that not having a penis meant that it was time to make a sluttier costume...or Odin did.
 
2013-01-18 03:01:43 PM  

Magorn: Ed Grubermann: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 420x640]

Now this panel illustrates the danger of using Male models for a romance book cover, as many of them are gay, as this guy clearly is.  The hot chick is wrapping herself around him, and he's not even looking at her, but staring off into the middle distance with a "The shiat I have to put upp with just to pay the bills" expression on his face


Heh. The face on that cover is Stephen King's face. The cover is from one of the books written by the main character in Misery.
 
2013-01-18 03:04:08 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Mike Chewbacca: Also, Thor Girl? Are farking kidding me??? Could they not just crack open a Bulfinch's Mythology and grab the first female Norse name they encountered??? Hell, they could have just used Hera and the stories could have been about what an asskicker Thor's mom was in her youth.

Knowing comics, Thor Girl could very well just be Thor, but a girl. I don't know, I was told that's happened to Loki before.

From Wiki: Tarene later transforms herself into an Asgardian goddess and becomes Thor's loyal ally, taking the name "Thor Girl" and the human identity of Jake Olson's "cousin" Tara.

I wasn't sure because I passed this on TVTropes while looking for examples of revealing male costu- PHRASING

In Earth X, Thor was transformed into a woman as another humility lesson given by his father, Odin. For no explained reason, this costume places Thor's usual metal discs on her breasts like cups, gives her Thigh-High Boots, and frames her figure with holes that show off every curve of her body. Remember, for all intents and purposes, this is a character that was once male. So that means either Thor decided that not having a penis meant that it was time to make a sluttier costume...or Odin did.


Well, that's pretty offensive, too.
 
2013-01-18 03:04:16 PM  

mgshamster: Max Awesome: Frank Frazetta

I like his work.  I'm also a big fan of Luis Royo (most of his stuff is not safe for work, if you decide to Google him).

His work is very sexual, and he does both men and women.  For example: Second Circle (very NSFW) or Tangent (also very NSFW)


Royo's work is lovely, and I appreciate his equal opportunity approach to portraying both beautiful males and females, but his figures tend to just lay around looking sexy. They all look like they're about to fall asleep (sexily).

I prefer sexy warriors who actually tend to act warrior-like occasionally.
 
2013-01-18 03:05:11 PM  

fluffy2097: This lady would like to exchange words, possibly bullets with the author.
[i.imgur.com image 850x909]
/or she just might rip him limb from limb with her cybernetic body.
//whatever works.
///fixed the imglink


That's a hell of an example to pick. Go read Masamune Shirow's manga and then say with a straight face that The Major isn't sexualized. I'd find something to post, but I ain't search through his work on a PC that's not mine.
 
2013-01-18 03:05:19 PM  
I don't think that the problem is really having sexually attractive female (or male) characters on itself, but the OVERLY sexualized of their nature.

The pics that Theaetetus posted as non sexualized are still very attractive, but the attractiveness or the sexy elements are complements of the overall composition, not the main point.

But then again, I don't think that the art discussion should be that much about gender issues as about of tastes and class.

Writing on the other hand...
 
2013-01-18 03:06:11 PM  
Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL
fc01.deviantart.net

/shes a cyborg. She doesn't even have a cooter.
 
2013-01-18 03:08:23 PM  

fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL


Didn't we address this idiotic troll like 50 posts ago?
 
2013-01-18 03:08:30 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

I see Liefeld isn't the only one who can't make up their minds which way they want a sword to face as they are drawing it. If they can't get a sword right, it's no wonder a human body gets twisted.
 
2013-01-18 03:12:17 PM  

Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL

Didn't we address this idiotic troll like 50 posts ago?


Fluffy and Rocky always post in these threads, claiming there's nothing at all wrong with highly sexualized women in art. If some comic had a superheroine that was just a pair of giant tits above a giant vulva, they'd think it was totally fine.

/"Fighting crime with my Labia Majora of Justice!"
 
2013-01-18 03:13:23 PM  
Theaetetus:
Hooray, a third incorrect assumption! That's three strikes, and you're back to troll land.

Yeah, but I'm also not the one posting links to terrible, mainstream comics.

Tell me about the sexuality in Martha Washington or Gaimen's Black Orchid -then I'll believe that you have a case.

Until then, you haven't explained the prevailence of "sexist" Romance Novel covers.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-01-18 03:14:19 PM  

Theaetetus: Not sexualized:


I don't know, I'd fark her.
 
2013-01-18 03:14:49 PM  

fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL
[fc01.deviantart.net image 800x600]

/shes a cyborg. She doesn't even have a cooter.


so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?   I'm no feminist but chainmail bikinis and curiases with cut-outs  are stupid enough to snap my suspension of disbelief and sometimes ruin a book for me.   It's every bit as bad a horrible Jennifer robeson Fantasy  novel I read where the lead characters are a Barabrian nomad from the desert and a warrior woman from the mountainous highlands, and at some point he starts really suffering from the cold, because, you see, he's from the desert, and thus doesn;t own any heavy or warm clothing.   Having spent some sub 32 deg nights in deserts that were 115F+ during the day I wanted to hurl the novel out the window at the sheer stupdity of that and never did finished reading it
 
2013-01-18 03:16:42 PM  

ProfessorOhki: C'mon, Hulk is a big lumbering green beast and She-Hulk is well-proportioned, muscled (but not to freakish levels), and has full lips.


I thought that was more due to the Comics Code Authority's rule that "Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities."

You weren't allowed to make women have unrealistic proportions back in those days, even if the unrealistic proportions took the form of Hulk-sized muscles.
 
2013-01-18 03:17:09 PM  

Max Awesome: mgshamster: Max Awesome: Frank Frazetta

I like his work.  I'm also a big fan of Luis Royo (most of his stuff is not safe for work, if you decide to Google him).

His work is very sexual, and he does both men and women.  For example: Second Circle (very NSFW) or Tangent (also very NSFW)

Royo's work is lovely, and I appreciate his equal opportunity approach to portraying both beautiful males and females, but his figures tend to just lay around looking sexy. They all look like they're about to fall asleep (sexily).

I prefer sexy warriors who actually tend to act warrior-like occasionally.


For the most part, yes. In Prohibited, most certainly. He has a couple of action shots in some of his other books.  Check out Dreams. Also, there's a pretty cool short story in Evolution, called "Malefic" if you ever get the chance to check it out.

"Shadowrun: Run Hard, Die Fast" (NSFW images in sidebar) is in Dreams.
 
2013-01-18 03:17:49 PM  

Theaetetus: mgshamster: Mike Chewbacca:
Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.

Maybe they're just moving upwards in that shot.  Once she stops moving, they'll be back to normal.

It could also be the wind. It's whipping their hair over in the same direction... Maybe it's like hurricane force, and blowing her tits sideways, too?

/What about their loin cloths, you ask? They're made of lead.


That last one actually pretty much proves your point in spades, I have to admit.  The Man and woman depicted are wearing the exact same clothing, but somehow she manages to look like a sex doll while he still looks like an NFL player hanging out in a locker room.
 
2013-01-18 03:18:04 PM  

SomeoneDumb: I hope these researchers never get around to looking at video games.


Every time I take my paladin to Northrend, I put a flannel shirt on her. I know she's just a cartoon, but *I* get chilly looking at her.
 
2013-01-18 03:22:02 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL

Didn't we address this idiotic troll like 50 posts ago?

Fluffy and Rocky always post in these threads, claiming there's nothing at all wrong with highly sexualized women in art. If some comic had a superheroine that was just a pair of giant tits above a giant vulva, they'd think it was totally fine.

/"Fighting crime with my Labia Majora of Justice!"


Hmm.. Thinking about it, that's wouldn't be that bad. In that case, at least the labia is the superhuman part that fights crime.  Usually, the drawings are emphasizing sexiness that have nothing to do with the character or the action shot in question.
 
2013-01-18 03:22:44 PM  

Magorn: fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL
[fc01.deviantart.net image 800x600]

/shes a cyborg. She doesn't even have a cooter.

so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?


Extra chassis space.

/In anime? Maybe missile hardpoints as well.
 
2013-01-18 03:24:13 PM  

Magorn: Theaetetus: mgshamster: Mike Chewbacca:
Come on, that chick in that last pic should've has National Geographic tits. Instead, she looks like a pron star.

Maybe they're just moving upwards in that shot.  Once she stops moving, they'll be back to normal.

It could also be the wind. It's whipping their hair over in the same direction... Maybe it's like hurricane force, and blowing her tits sideways, too?

/What about their loin cloths, you ask? They're made of lead.

That last one actually pretty much proves your point in spades, I have to admit.  The Man and woman depicted are wearing the exact same clothing, but somehow she manages to look like a sex doll while he still looks like an NFL player hanging out in a locker room.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
 
2013-01-18 03:24:33 PM  

Magorn: fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL
[fc01.deviantart.net image 800x600]

/shes a cyborg. She doesn't even have a cooter.

so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?   I'm no feminist but chainmail bikinis and curiases with cut-outs  are stupid enough to snap my suspension of disbelief and sometimes ruin a book for me.   It's every bit as bad a horrible Jennifer robeson Fantasy  novel I read where the lead characters are a Barabrian nomad from the desert and a warrior woman from the mountainous highlands, and at some point he starts really suffering from the cold, because, you see, he's from the desert, and thus doesn;t own any heavy or warm clothing.   Having spent some sub 32 deg nights in deserts that were 115F+ during the day I wanted to hurl the novel out the window at the sheer stupdity of that and never did finished reading it


The prison breakout scene in Watchmen in which Silk Spectre is wearing stiletto heels with her VERY long hair unbound makes me cringe. Even Steven Seagal ties his hair back when he's gonna beat some ass.
 
2013-01-18 03:26:44 PM  
mgshamster:

"Shadowrun: Run Hard, Die Fast" (NSFW images in sidebar) is in Dreams.

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out.
 
2013-01-18 03:28:49 PM  
It's almost as if women and men dressed differently in their idealized forms and women showed more skin:

i.huffpost.com
img.ibtimes.com
0.tqn.com
popseoul.files.wordpress.com
bmmoejackson2.files.wordpress.com
2.bp.blogspot.com
2.bp.blogspot.com
l.yimg.com
media2.onsugar.com
l.yimg.com
 
2013-01-18 03:31:48 PM  

ProfessorOhki: That's a hell of an example to pick. Go read Masamune Shirow's manga and then say with a straight face that The Major isn't sexualized. I'd find something to post, but I ain't search through his work on a PC that's not mine.


She blatantly rebuffs every single sexual advance made upon her by Batou.

In fact, the only time she IS seen in a sexual context is when it's her day off and she's having cybersex with her GIRLFRIENDS (It was cut out in the black horse edition manga).

Kusanagi is the epitome of the hardened soldier, and the only thing left that is still her is her soul. Even her brain and memory is owned by the government.

She doesn't give a single goddamn shiat about what her cyborg shell is dressed in. If anything, it's a tactical decision. A lecherous hump might stare at her instead of pulling the trigger.

Heres another shot of Motoko in one of her "powerless, submissive nearly naked outfits."
i.imgur.com
Now since you seem to be hung up on everything being sexual. Lets take a look at a more risque shot, and have a discussion about it.
www.theanimegallery.com
Notice the fact that the robot she is leaning on is devoid of any armor plating. You can see straight through to it's actuators. Motoko, being a machine herself (except for a small part of her brain stem), is much like robot behind her.

Clothing is just a shell to her. An outer casing used to protect vital components as it were.

And lets face it, her cyborg body is not even that exotic. It's made specifically to look like a mass market shell in order to not stand out.

There ARE fantasy and sci-fi artists who do cheesecake for cheesecakes sake. Shirow is even one of them. But to say that it's some sort of epidemic, or that there cannot be reasons behind it, or that a story won't sell without a half naked contorted bimbo is just stupid.

Here's Deunan from Appleseed in her civies. she wears a skirt! The horror!
moviesmedia.ign.com

Here's Deunan in her combat gear. She sure seems helpless doesn't she.
animearts.files.wordpress.com

/I think I like her better in the landmate....
 
2013-01-18 03:33:16 PM  

Magorn: so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?


Because robots are designed by basement dwelling nerds?

/ducks
 
2013-01-18 03:34:06 PM  

Magorn: so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?


Alita is a cyborg for one, not a robot. Are you implying she shouldn't have breasts because her body is metal instead of flesh? Perhaps it makes her feel better about her self image.
 
2013-01-18 03:38:29 PM  

Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.


That's because men don't wear leotards.

Why don't women ever wear cups?
 
2013-01-18 03:40:17 PM  

mgshamster: Magorn: so then what's the point of DESIGNING a robot with a Double D-Cup exactly?

Because robots are designed by basement dwelling nerds?

/ducks


ajbulldis.files.wordpress.com
Yep.
 
2013-01-18 03:41:43 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.


upload.wikimedia.org
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.
 
2013-01-18 03:42:02 PM  
A lot of defensiveness in this thread.

God, I hope many of you are being purposely obtuse.
 
2013-01-18 03:42:18 PM  

Magorn:

That last one actually pretty much proves your point in spades, I have to admit.  The Man and woman depicted are wearing the exact same clothing, but somehow she manages to look like a sex doll while he still looks like an NFL player hanging out in a locker room.


Stabby sex-dolls who fight dinosaurs are a thing in your world?

Or is it the fact that she's nearly naked? Does a naked woman just automatically mean sex-doll to you?

The equally naked male is actually a rather passive figure in this composition. She's the active fighter in that painting while the male is hanging back letting her take the lead.

He has his axe raised but is leaning backwards away from the threat, (perhaps fromt the strength of her push) while she is leaning forward, ready to step closer towards the danger. She's no helpless blow-up doll at all.
 
2013-01-18 03:44:22 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid:

Tell me about the sexuality in Martha Washington or Gaimen's Black Orchid -then I'll believe that you have a case.

Until then, you haven't explained the prevailence of "sexist" Romance Novel covers.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 400x338]


Two of my all-time favorite comic books ever!

Black Orchid is so beautiful... thanks for reminding me of it. I think I'll re-read it again today.
 
2013-01-18 03:45:23 PM  

Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.


Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?
 
2013-01-18 03:46:32 PM  

rocky_howard: It's almost as if women and men dressed differently in their idealized forms and women showed more skin:

[i.huffpost.com image 260x190]
[img.ibtimes.com image 850x1173]
[0.tqn.com image 273x400]
[popseoul.files.wordpress.com image 400x633]
[bmmoejackson2.files.wordpress.com image 600x400]
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 255x400]
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 216x320]
[l.yimg.com image 310x450]
[media2.onsugar.com image 550x550]
[l.yimg.com image 450x316]


Yes, because sexy Hollywood stars dressing sexily at a movie premiere is EXACTLY the same thing as a huge-breasted comic book heroine wearing useless bikini armor into battle.
 
2013-01-18 03:46:47 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?


www.flyandmighty.com
 
2013-01-18 03:49:09 PM  

Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?

[www.flyandmighty.com image 303x500]


So I guess barely there sexualized outfits are for men too huh? I thought you said they weren't.
 
2013-01-18 03:49:22 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?


Male gymnasts wear leotards all the time. I dare you to call them unmanly.
 
2013-01-18 03:51:03 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?

[www.flyandmighty.com image 303x500]

So I guess barely there sexualized outfits are for men too huh? I thought you said they weren't.


Actually, that get up kind of neutered him. You can't even tell he's got genitals.
 
2013-01-18 03:53:25 PM  

fluffy2097: OH GOD! SHES SO SEXUALIZED!
[i.imgur.com image 800x574]
EVEN MORE PROOF THAT WOMEN IN ART ARE ONLY SEXUAL OBJECTS!

[i.imgur.com image 850x680]


I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?
 
2013-01-18 03:54:45 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Male gymnasts wear leotards all the time. I dare you to call them unmanly.


Having been a gymnast, I can tell you for a fact, that

A:they make your dick look HUGE

B: you wear pants over them.

/Or maybe I just have a giant dick.
//However big it is, my girlfriend is quite happy with it so whatever.
 
2013-01-18 03:57:25 PM  

mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?


I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.
 
2013-01-18 03:58:02 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?

[www.flyandmighty.com image 303x500]

So I guess barely there sexualized outfits are for men too huh? I thought you said they weren't.


You thought wrong.
 
2013-01-18 03:59:15 PM  

fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.


Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.
 
2013-01-18 04:01:03 PM  

Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.


/derp
 
2013-01-18 04:01:41 PM  

Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?

[www.flyandmighty.com image 303x500]

So I guess barely there sexualized outfits are for men too huh? I thought you said they weren't.

You thought wrong.


She contradicts herself again. As per her original quote (also copied in her "refutation")
No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.
 
2013-01-18 04:03:34 PM  

mgshamster: Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.


Sure. Why not? Why should I waste time wading through crap like Liefeld? Why should I give ANY thought to a man who doesn't know how spines work?

I'd much rather see the lack of any sort of decent PLOT in most modern media be addressed before skimpy outfits and unrealistic poses are.
 
2013-01-18 04:03:50 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

/derp


Because People in power are Stupid: She contradicts herself again. As per her original quote (also copied in her "refutation")
No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.


When did photos of people in real life become equivalent to drawings of sci fi and fantasy characters?
 
2013-01-18 04:05:27 PM  
One of my favorite current artists appears to be influenced by Frank Frazetta - Frank Cho.

He certainly shares Frazetta's appreciation for loin-cloths, dinosaurs and butt-shots. In fact he's often criticized for somehow managing to include a lady's perfectly delineated ass in practically every panel - but he gets a pass from me because his women tend to be so beautifully drawn, with muscle-tone, weight, and an actual understanding of anatomy.

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

But part of why I love Cho's work so much is that he draws men who are as equally bad-ass and sexy - he doesn't shy away from drawing men's butts and or crotches as expertly as his female figures. He's one of the few comic book artists who actually understand that a muscular guy wearing a leotard isn't going to look like an emasculated Ken doll.

He started a new series this week that is perfect for his talents - The Savage Wolverine:

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-18 04:06:45 PM  

fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

/derp


Allow me to help you overcome your reading comprehension failure. Take this first paragraph:
"Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely. But this? No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters."
What is that last sentence saying? That you never see those outfits on men in comic covers.

Now, what did you say?
"So I guess barely there sexualized outfits are for men too huh? I thought you said they weren't."
You're saying that you thought I said that outfits don't exist, period, anywhere.

And finally, is that what I said? No. Therefore, you thought wrong.
 
2013-01-18 04:06:45 PM  

fluffy2097: mgshamster: Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.

Sure. Why not? Why should I waste time wading through crap like Liefeld? Why should I give ANY thought to a man who doesn't know how spines work?

I'd much rather see the lack of any sort of decent PLOT in most modern media be addressed before skimpy outfits and unrealistic poses are.


Because we're not just commenting on Liefeld, and this issue isn't just limited to "crap." It's pretty mainstream, as evidenced by that Avengers poster up thread.
 
2013-01-18 04:09:36 PM  

fluffy2097: mgshamster: Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.

Sure. Why not? Why should I waste time wading through crap like Liefeld? Why should I give ANY thought to a man who doesn't know how spines work?

I'd much rather see the lack of any sort of decent PLOT in most modern media be addressed before skimpy outfits and unrealistic poses are.


Fair enough.

One of the media that I typically argue against over-sexualization of characters is in gaming rule books (typically table top RPGs); where it usually is only the women characters who are sexualized, and the men are not. The difference, though, is that when I get into conversations about RPG rule books, I'm usually talking to actual developers and designers, rather than here on Fark where I'm just talking to a bunch of random Farkers.
 
2013-01-18 04:15:01 PM  

mgshamster: When did photos of people in real life become equivalent to drawings of sci fi and fantasy characters?


There are sexualized images of men in comics too.

The artist who drew this excellent comic for Mobius for example:

i212.photobucket.com

Where I can't find images of the comic pages in question -but take my word for it -they are as bad or as good as any She-Hulk or WonderWoman or Glamour Magazine cover:

talkingwithtami.com

Of course -people of both gendersrespond to "sexy" images. But to listen to the female-supremacists it's only for Men or because of the fictional Patriarchy or some other such nonsense.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090223221441.htm
 
2013-01-18 04:19:46 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Theaetetus: No. The barely-there sexualized outfits are unique to female characters.

That's because men don't wear leotards.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x560]
Jules Leotard, inventor of the leotard, begs to differ, you farkin' tard.

Can you find an image that's not 120 years old please?

Male gymnasts wear leotards all the time. I dare you to call them unmanly.


Hmm let's see , given the similarity of the activities, there should be little sexual dimophism between male and female gynastic attire, right?  and yet:

male gymnastic wear:
www.csmonitor.com
Female Gymnastic wear:


media.nj.com
 
2013-01-18 04:23:19 PM  

Magorn: Hmm let's see , given the similarity of the activities, there should be little sexual dimophism between male and female gynastic attire, right?  and yet:


Which is a little crazy, honestly... If the cut away legs allow more freedom of movement, then the male gymnasts should be wearing unitards too. And similar for the women's long sleeves.
 
2013-01-18 04:24:53 PM  

Magorn:
Hmm let's see , given the similarity of the activities, there should be little sexual dimophism between male and female gynastic attire, right?  and yet:


I have to say, the leotards girls had to wear for gymnastics kept me doing it for about 2 years after I had lost any interest in actual gymnastics.

The reason the guys end up wearing pants is mostly because otherwise your dick will flop out and you can lose points for that on the pommel horse if it touches the horse.

/I could also beat the entire girls team in a hand stand contest. 24 girls VS me, and I usually won. Sometimes I had to charge towards them and yell to scare them into falling over, but a win is a win \o/
 
2013-01-18 04:28:26 PM  

Max Awesome: One of my favorite current artists appears to be influenced by Frank Frazetta - Frank Cho.

He certainly shares Frazetta's appreciation for loin-cloths, dinosaurs and butt-shots. In fact he's often criticized for somehow managing to include a lady's perfectly delineated ass in practically every panel - but he gets a pass from me because his women tend to be so beautifully drawn, with muscle-tone, weight, and an actual understanding of anatomy.

[i42.photobucket.com image 850x656]

[i42.photobucket.com image 572x868]

But part of why I love Cho's work so much is that he draws men who are as equally bad-ass and sexy - he doesn't shy away from drawing men's butts and or crotches as expertly as his female figures. He's one of the few comic book artists who actually understand that a muscular guy wearing a leotard isn't going to look like an emasculated Ken doll.

He started a new series this week that is perfect for his talents - The Savage Wolverine:

[i42.photobucket.com image 477x733]

[i42.photobucket.com image 674x1024]


I knew Frank personally when he was just starting his career (we worked on a college newspaper together)  And I would say  that while he certainly was a fan of Frazetta and Vallejo, (and classic Cartoon art in general)   he was just as influenced by DaVinci and Michaelangelo.  he was fascinated by human anatomy (his parents wanted him to be a nurse, a career choice I claim a minor amount of credit for talking him out of) and detemined to get it correct in his drawings. (we used to fight over desk blotters he'd doodled on when he got bored in the office).  The most ironic thing about his work is he's often been criticized for his "brandy" character in Liberty Meadows as being an impossibly beautiful and exaggerated representation of the female form.  However I happen to know the  woman "Brandy" was based on, (our editor at the paper) and in real life she was even MORE beautiful thank Frank drew her (among other things she had natural, blood-red hair and SILVER eyes).  He actually toned her down somewhat to make her more believable
 
2013-01-18 04:38:09 PM  

Magorn:

I knew Frank personally when he was just starting his career (we worked on a college newspaper together)  And I would say  that while he certainly was a fan of Frazetta and Vallejo, (and classic Cartoon art in general)   he was just as influenced by DaVinci and Michaelangelo.  he was fascinated by human anatomy (his parents wanted him to be a nurse, a career choice I claim a minor amount of credit for talking him out of) and detemined to get it correct in his drawings. (we used to fight over desk blotters he'd doodled on when he got bored in the office).  The most ironic thing about his work is he's often been criticized for his "brandy" character in Liberty Meadows as being an impossibly beautiful and exaggerated representation of the female form.  However I happen to know the  woman "Brandy" was based on, (our editor at the paper) and in real life she was even MORE beautiful thank Frank drew her (among other things she had natural, b ...


Wow. Coolest CSB of all time.
 
2013-01-18 04:40:20 PM  

mgshamster: fluffy2097: mgshamster: Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.

Sure. Why not? Why should I waste time wading through crap like Liefeld? Why should I give ANY thought to a man who doesn't know how spines work?

I'd much rather see the lack of any sort of decent PLOT in most modern media be addressed before skimpy outfits and unrealistic poses are.

Fair enough.

One of the media that I typically argue against over-sexualization of characters is in gaming rule books (typically table top RPGs); where it usually is only the women characters who are sexualized, and the men are not. The difference, though, is that when I get into conversations about RPG rule books, I'm usually talking to actual developers and designers, rather than here on Fark where I'm just talking to a bunch of random Farkers.


Funny you should bring that up...

I know Wayne Reynolds, the main artist for the Pathfinder RPG. He drew this:

rotgrub.files.wordpress.com

I also know this woman, who says that when she dresses up as Amiri, the armor gets in the way of her just walking around, and she can't imagine how cumbersome it would be in actual combat. And notice how ridiculously she has to stand in order to approximate the post in the actual artwork. And this isn't even a particularly sexualized version of an RPG character. Aside from the ridiculous lack of armor on her midriff, of course. And yes, we've all given Wayne shiat for that; he says he drew it that way because it looked cool.

1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-01-18 04:45:38 PM  
And this is a different symptom of the same problem:

blog.fooyoh.com

Because the tits of a 17-year-old girl co-starring in a PG-rated movie aren't big enough for American audiences.
 
2013-01-18 04:47:55 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: And this is a different symptom of the same problem:

[blog.fooyoh.com image 450x370]

Because the tits of a 17-year-old girl co-starring in a PG-rated movie aren't big enough for American audiences.


Dude, that's because the one on the right is in 3D
 
2013-01-18 04:48:47 PM  

rocky_howard: It's almost as if women and men dressed differently in their idealized forms and women showed more skin:

[i.huffpost.com image 260x190]
[img.ibtimes.com image 850x1173]
[0.tqn.com image 273x400]
[popseoul.files.wordpress.com image 400x633]
[bmmoejackson2.files.wordpress.com image 600x400]
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 255x400]
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 216x320]
[l.yimg.com image 310x450]
[media2.onsugar.com image 550x550]
[l.yimg.com image 450x316]


I notice that none of those women have both their boobs and their ass pointed toward the camera at the same time.
 
2013-01-18 04:49:26 PM  

serial_crusher: Mike Chewbacca: And this is a different symptom of the same problem:

[blog.fooyoh.com image 450x370]

Because the tits of a 17-year-old girl co-starring in a PG-rated movie aren't big enough for American audiences.

Dude, that's because the one on the right is in 3D


more like 3 double D!
 
2013-01-18 04:51:27 PM  

serial_crusher: Mike Chewbacca: And this is a different symptom of the same problem:

[blog.fooyoh.com image 450x370]

Because the tits of a 17-year-old girl co-starring in a PG-rated movie aren't big enough for American audiences.

Dude, that's because the one on the right is in 3D


Okay, that's pretty damn funny!
 
2013-01-18 04:59:26 PM  

fluffy2097: She doesn't give a single goddamn shiat about what her cyborg shell is dressed in. If anything, it's a tactical decision. A lecherous hump might stare at her instead of pulling the trigger.

Heres another shot of Motoko in one of her "powerless, submissive nearly naked outfits."


images3.wikia.nocookie.net

FTFY
 
2013-01-18 05:04:01 PM  

Theaetetus: We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?


I take it you either don't read comics at all or have someone else buy them for you. Otherwise you'd probably have heard of Namor, who is bare-chested and whose entire uniform consists of a codpiece:

images2.wikia.nocookie.net

Admittedly, there is more cleavage on female uniforms because it's actually been compatible with female fashion longer than it has with male, but actually a lot of male character designs for characters originating in the 70s/80s or earlier used it as shorthand for virility as well:

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
(OK, so this was after they changed it to a vest, my GIS skills are bad, I'm sorry)

There was actually an entire aesthetic movement called "camp" that emphasized male secondary sexual characteristics in art/performance and de-emphasized female. The most recent example I can pull up offhand is the Batman and Robin film. You might know it as the one with nipples on the bat-suit, but if you think a bit longer you might realize that a lot of the female costumes were fairly low on cleavage (freeze's minion was in a parka even in scenes that weren't particularly cold, iirc)

//This isn't probably an argument you want to get into on this particular forum, by the way, if you actually want to 'win', because any example you can think of has probably been done at some point without a trace of irony, and a lot of us read the damned things.
//Though, if you want to learn a lot of vaguely uncomfortable things about comics or exploitation media in general...
 
2013-01-18 05:05:38 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Otherwise you'd probably have heard of Namor, who is bare-chested and whose entire uniform consists of a codpiece:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 471x726]


Theaetetus: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 471x726]
Prince Namor is not amused.


Same picture even. Maybe you should read the thread rather than going off half-cocked next time, hmmm?
 
2013-01-18 05:09:21 PM  

Theaetetus: Jim_Callahan: Otherwise you'd probably have heard of Namor, who is bare-chested and whose entire uniform consists of a codpiece:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 471x726]

Theaetetus: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 471x726]
Prince Namor is not amused.

Same picture even. Maybe you should read the thread rather than going off half-cocked next time, hmmm?


You beat me to it.
 
2013-01-18 05:09:31 PM  

stevetherobot: I believe 'bodice ripper' refers to a subset of romance novels in which sex is often depicted as quasi-rape.


Or, as it's called in erotic fiction groups "non-consensual" sex. This is different from "rape".

Rape: No no no no no no no no
Non-consensual: No no no no no yes yes

On topic, it's not the "sexy" factor that's annoying. But it would be nice if the women were anatomically possible, and if you're going to put them in armour, make it functional. It's not a huge ask, is it?

Also, yes, the bulbous men are ridiculous and appeal to a pretty small subset of women. The bulbous men are fantasies of men for themselves, not for women. If they did a poll, the would find a far higher proportion of women are into swimmer / gymnast / athletes bodies (lithe, slim, toned, proportioned), than weightlifter / bodybuilder bodies (bulbous, disproportioned, cumbersome).

And the men on romance cover novels? Gross. Every tanned, hairy, greasy 80s stereotype in one.

Of course I suspect a major difference is that everyone knows a lot of those men are literally masturbating over the comic book images. I'd be surprised if women were masturbating over the covers of romance novels (the contents yes, but not the actual cover).
 
2013-01-18 05:09:42 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: mgshamster: fluffy2097: mgshamster: Ok. So you're arguing that other media exists, so just ignore the ones that are bad.

Sure. Why not? Why should I waste time wading through crap like Liefeld? Why should I give ANY thought to a man who doesn't know how spines work?

I'd much rather see the lack of any sort of decent PLOT in most modern media be addressed before skimpy outfits and unrealistic poses are.

Fair enough.

One of the media that I typically argue against over-sexualization of characters is in gaming rule books (typically table top RPGs); where it usually is only the women characters who are sexualized, and the men are not. The difference, though, is that when I get into conversations about RPG rule books, I'm usually talking to actual developers and designers, rather than here on Fark where I'm just talking to a bunch of random Farkers.

Funny you should bring that up...

I know Wayne Reynolds, the main artist for the Pathfinder RPG. He drew this:

[rotgrub.files.wordpress.com image 423x750]

I also know this woman, who says that when she dresses up as Amiri, the armor gets in the way of her just walking around, and she can't imagine how cumbersome it would be in actual combat. And notice how ridiculously she has to stand in order to approximate the post in the actual artwork. And this isn't even a particularly sexualized version of an RPG character. Aside from the ridiculous lack of armor on her midriff, of course. And yes, we've all given Wayne shiat for that; he says he drew it that way because it looked cool.

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 340x531]


Great example.

I can't seem to find it right now (or remember the character's name), but I remember seeing a female character that was described as being somewhat comely and very shy, and the artwork that went with the character was a scantly clad smoking hot chick showing off her ass and chest, published in one of the books (can't even remember if it was a Pathfinder book, but I was on the Paizo forums when it was brought up).
 
2013-01-18 05:17:31 PM  

Theaetetus: Max Awesome: What the heck is wrong with a bit of sexual objectification? It sells books.

But it should be done equally, with heroic males presenting their butts and chests on covers in order to attract the female and gay eye - and our money.

Frank Frazetta was a master of this - even when his male figures were wearing the skimpiest of loincloths and their perfectly sculpted buttocks and bulging crotches were the obvious focal point of his paintings the men still managed to look like fierce warriors.

[i42.photobucket.com image 728x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 749x1024]

[i42.photobucket.com image 850x1006]

Even many of his female figures - while essentially nude - were often dynamic, strongly muscled and looked like they could easily beat anybody's ass.

[i42.photobucket.com image 765x1024]

Today's artists need to learn to strike a similar balance.

Exactly. Some of the trolls in this thread think that if you object to the way women are portrayed in comics, then you must want everyone to be in burlap sacks or some shiat. It's like they believe that every issue must be black and white, with the only possible positions being the ones at the extreme edges: either women can only appear in highly sexualized positions, or all comics must be about the patriarchy-destroying efforts of the Manhater Squad and deviation will result in jail time.


Pretty much. I'm a feminist and an artist, and so are most of my friends/colleagues. We have no interest in giving up drawing hot women! We love good pinups and strong, sexy super heroines! Really, the biggest change most of us advocate is artists thinking of their characters as people first, women second. Less contorted poses with only tenuous connections to environment/plot/other characters, more focus on narrative. Less same-face bedroom eyes, more thought given to a character's personality and how sexy can manifest in many different ways, from perky (Harley Quinn) to slinky (Catwoman) to old-school siren (Poison Ivy).

Adam Hughes is an artist a lot of us look up to, because his women seem actively engaged with their world, because his Wonder Woman has a different facial structure than his Catwoman. I understand the pressures artists are under to perform under a deadline, to appease an audience that enjoys a pretty ladies ... but it's not that hard to accomplish these things in a way that doesn't alienate half the population. It just takes a little thought.

/Participated in the Hawkwaye Initiative, but mostly for the lulz.
//Hawkeye is just an inherently lulzy character, anyway.
 
2013-01-18 05:23:07 PM  

ProfessorOhki: fluffy2097: She doesn't give a single goddamn shiat about what her cyborg shell is dressed in. If anything, it's a tactical decision. A lecherous hump might stare at her instead of pulling the trigger.

Heres another shot of Motoko in one of her "powerless, submissive nearly naked outfits."

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 310x479]

FTFY


Now admit it. You'd hesitate shooting a woman dressed like that, wouldn't you?

/And she'd fry your brain while you hesitated.
 
2013-01-18 05:23:08 PM  
fc05.deviantart.net

/posted for the lulz
 
2013-01-18 05:26:20 PM  
img842.imageshack.us
Since 1995
 
2013-01-18 05:33:31 PM  

kid_icarus: serial_crusher: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: ***snip***

It's kinda a moot point in a way. Their male bodies are still ridiculously over-idealized. (If they were able to draw their junk, I'm sure that would also be idealized to the point of absurdity.)


Would Thing's thing be rock too?
 
2013-01-18 05:35:19 PM  
GiS for Dr. MANHATTAN turned up nothing but a speedo. Can a brutha get a lab coat?

Not knowing anatomy is one thing... and not very sexy. I cant draw any better though. But there are loads of males who are dressed skimpy and not as sexy. Mainly because women are sexier IN GENERAL. Tons of aliens and males wear skimpy costumes... but even with a one piece bathing suit, some things are just not sexy. They have just as many irrational poses for males, but they are not sexy- because women are sexy in a way nothing else is when in skimpy clothes. THERE was a time a woman was a slut for wearing her hair down.. because women entice. Look at how many mens underwear stores there are. None on my block.
 
2013-01-18 05:39:54 PM  

fluffy2097: ProfessorOhki: fluffy2097: She doesn't give a single goddamn shiat about what her cyborg shell is dressed in. If anything, it's a tactical decision. A lecherous hump might stare at her instead of pulling the trigger.

Heres another shot of Motoko in one of her "powerless, submissive nearly naked outfits."

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 310x479]

FTFY

Now admit it. You'd hesitate shooting a woman dressed like that, wouldn't you?

/And she'd fry your brain while you hesitated.


More and more ridiculous, but fine:
1) She didn't know I was there: why is she lying supine with her back-arched, semi-bound, with absolute cleavage? Just to get the jump on someone who might show up?
2) She already knew I was there. She's the farking Major. It doesn't matter what she looks like, if she was aware of me I'd be dead a dozen ways before I could even go "ooooh,"and almost more of them more efficient than taking the time to be ogled.

/I mean, FFS, she has thermoptic camo
//"Invisible" tends to give a pretty good tactical advantage
 
2013-01-18 05:48:38 PM  

Theaetetus: Same picture even. Maybe you should read the thread rather than going off half-cocked next time, hmmm?


Are you on your period?
 
2013-01-18 05:54:32 PM  

Theaetetus: Thor Girl.


That's not a real thing, is it?
 
2013-01-18 06:06:35 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Same picture even. Maybe you should read the thread rather than going off half-cocked next time, hmmm?

Are you on your period?


No, but I did just sit on my balls.
 
2013-01-18 07:07:29 PM  

Magorn: Ed Grubermann: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 420x640]

Now this panel illustrates the danger of using Male models for a romance book cover, as many of them are gay, as this guy clearly is.  The hot chick is wrapping herself around him, and he's not even looking at her, but staring off into the middle distance with a "The shiat I have to put upp with just to pay the bills" expression on his face


Do you even know who that is?
 
2013-01-18 07:26:45 PM  
Too many :words:, not enough sexy pikshurs.

What? ;)
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-18 07:40:36 PM  
mgshamster: Boob armor? Please. That would concentrate a blow to the chest, not deflect it.

David Eddings used this for comic effect in one of his lightweight fantasy novels:
Precisely ten days later the princess, with Durnik once again in tow, returned to Delban's workshop. The mail shirt the craftsman had fastened was so light that it could almost have been described as delicate. The helmet, hammered from thin steel, was surmounted with a white plume and was encircled with a gold crown. The greaves, which were to protect the fronts of Ce'Nedra's legs, fit to perfection. There was even an embossed shield rimmed with brass and a light sword with an ornate hilt and scabbard.

Ce'Nedra, however, was staring disapprovingly at the breastplate Delban had made for her. It would quite obviously fit -- too well. "Didn't you forget something?" she asked him.

He picked the breastplate up in his big hands and examined it. "It's all there," he told her. "Front, back, all the straps to hook them together. What else did you want?"

"Isn't it a trifle -- understated?" Ce'Nedra suggested delicately.

"It's made to fit," he replied. "The understatement isn't my fault."

"I wanted a little more --" She made a sort of curving gesture with her hands.

"What for?"

"Just do it."

"What do you plan to put in it?"
She goes on to explain it wasn't meant to be functional armor.
 
2013-01-18 08:07:09 PM  
i.imgur.com

There have been a few well-dressed female protagonists in video games recently. Certainly FemShep was suitably kitted up (although the same can't be said for other Mass Effect characters.) My favorite balance between attractive and appropriate, though, was:

www.kreis-archiv.de

So, yeah, there's still a concession to cleavage, but at least there's a strap for theoretical tightening.
 
2013-01-18 08:08:34 PM  
They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?
 
2013-01-18 08:22:47 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: And this is a different symptom of the same problem:

[blog.fooyoh.com image 450x370]

Because the tits of a 17-year-old girl co-starring in a PG-rated movie aren't big enough for American audiences.


You know, I'm thinking that may not be just a retouched photo. It looks like two different photos from a rapid fire series of shots. Her hair has moved, the colors for the whole thing are slightly different, etc.. In other words it looks like it was recomposited from the source shots. She may just have breathed in at the moment the shot on the right was taken. We aren't talking about an enormous difference.
 
2013-01-18 08:33:15 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: [fc05.deviantart.net image 574x650]

/posted for the lulz


that is friggin A+ lulz

thanks for the laugh out loud.
 
2013-01-18 08:37:53 PM  
What no one does any Kazar?

i89.photobucket.com

i635.photobucket.com

i157.photobucket.com

I'll throw in this klingon guy also I guess
i107.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-18 08:49:32 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?


Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.
 
2013-01-18 08:55:03 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: And yes, we've all given Wayne shiat for that; he says he drew it that way because it looked cool.


I hope you give him shiat because all of his character apparently have velcro on their backs as well (how else are those spears, bows, swords, staves, etc. attached?)
 
2013-01-18 09:08:23 PM  

fluffy2097: This lady would like to exchange words, possibly bullets with the author.
[i.imgur.com image 850x909]
/or she just might rip him limb from limb with her cybernetic body.
//whatever works.
///fixed the imglink


Nah, Motoko would just be economic, put a bullet in his head and walk away.
 
2013-01-18 09:11:15 PM  

fluffy2097: ProfessorOhki: That's a hell of an example to pick. Go read Masamune Shirow's manga and then say with a straight face that The Major isn't sexualized. I'd find something to post, but I ain't search through his work on a PC that's not mine.

She blatantly rebuffs every single sexual advance made upon her by Batou.

In fact, the only time she IS seen in a sexual context is when it's her day off and she's having cybersex with her GIRLFRIENDS (It was cut out in the black horse edition manga).

Kusanagi is the epitome of the hardened soldier, and the only thing left that is still her is her soul. Even her brain and memory is owned by the government.

She doesn't give a single goddamn shiat about what her cyborg shell is dressed in. If anything, it's a tactical decision. A lecherous hump might stare at her instead of pulling the trigger.

Heres another shot of Motoko in one of her "powerless, submissive nearly naked outfits."
[i.imgur.com image 850x659]
Now since you seem to be hung up on everything being sexual. Lets take a look at a more risque shot, and have a discussion about it.
[www.theanimegallery.com image 700x776]
Notice the fact that the robot she is leaning on is devoid of any armor plating. You can see straight through to it's actuators. Motoko, being a machine herself (except for a small part of her brain stem), is much like robot behind her.

Clothing is just a shell to her. An outer casing used to protect vital components as it were.

And lets face it, her cyborg body is not even that exotic. It's made specifically to look like a mass market shell in order to not stand out.

There ARE fantasy and sci-fi artists who do cheesecake for cheesecakes sake. Shirow is even one of them. But to say that it's some sort of epidemic, or that there cannot be reasons behind it, or that a story won't sell without a half naked contorted bimbo is just stupid.

Here's Deunan from Appleseed in her civies. she wears a skirt! The horror!
[moviesmedia.ign.com image 360x202]

Here ...


Ahhhh, GiTS and Appleseed...FARK YEAH~!
 
2013-01-18 09:29:11 PM  

mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?

Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.


Are the fictional women not being paid enough to dress and pose they way they do? Are they being prevented from aspiring to higher positions in their places of employment? Are Power Girl and Rogue being forced to stay home and raise the kids? No? And if they were, does it matter, because they don't exist? Then I'm sorry, I don't see why I should get outraged at ink-and-paint characters being drawn more attractively than real people and posed in ways that real people can't imitate. Most of them also have superpowers, am I supposed to be outraged at that as well because real women can't shoot ice from their hands or create pshychokintetic blades?

I'm all for women's lib and equality in real life. I don't see the need or reason to demonize and attack comic books for it.
 
2013-01-18 09:33:49 PM  

brigid_fitch: The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

assets.sbnation.com


I swear, I found the picture that Liefeld stole that from once. It's not the one posted earlier. Might have been shopped, but if so, it was fairly subtle. I think Liefeld tweaked it up to eleven, but the actual woman looked like a real woman in an uncomfortable pose.

Sadly, I think it's on another computer.
 
2013-01-18 09:36:43 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Theaetetus: fluffy2097: Maybe we should just stop drawing women all together. Since any drawing of a woman is OMGSEXUAL

Didn't we address this idiotic troll like 50 posts ago?

Fluffy and Rocky always post in these threads, claiming there's nothing at all wrong with highly sexualized women in art. If some comic had a superheroine that was just a pair of giant tits above a giant vulva, they'd think it was totally fine.

/"Fighting crime with my Labia Majora of Justice!"


Yeah, but her vagina is haunted.
 
2013-01-18 09:42:27 PM  
Wait a second no one has mentioned Coley Running Wild yet.

images.betterworldbooks.com
 
2013-01-18 09:43:57 PM  
Yowza, I just tried a safesearch for Druuna and realized there isn't a single panel of her drawn that is safe for work.
 
2013-01-18 09:47:46 PM  
Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.
 
2013-01-18 10:12:28 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?

Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.

Are the fictional women not being paid enough to dress and pose they way they do? Are they being prevented from aspiring to higher positions in their places of employment? Are Power Girl and Rogue being forced to stay home and raise the kids? No? And if they were, does it matter, because they don't exist? Then I'm sorry, I don't see why I should get outraged at ink-and-paint characters being drawn more attractively than real people and posed in ways that real people can't imitate. Most of them also have superpowers, am I supposed to be outraged at that as well because real women can't shoot ice from their hands or create pshychokintetic blades?

I'm all for women's lib and equality in real life. I don't see the need or reason to demonize and attack comic books for it.


But you do feel strongly enough to attack those who are bothered by it and want to make change. Got it.

/If you don't like it, then let those of us who do care handle it
//You don't worry your pretty little head over it anymore
 
2013-01-18 10:20:37 PM  

mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?

Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.

Are the fictional women not being paid enough to dress and pose they way they do? Are they being prevented from aspiring to higher positions in their places of employment? Are Power Girl and Rogue being forced to stay home and raise the kids? No? And if they were, does it matter, because they don't exist? Then I'm sorry, I don't see why I should get outraged at ink-and-paint characters being drawn more attractively than real people and posed in ways that real people can't imitate. Most of them also have superpowers, am I supposed to be outraged at that as well because real women can't shoot ice from their hands or create pshychokintetic blades?

I'm all for women's lib and equality in real life. I don't see the need or reason to demonize and attack comic books for it.

But you do feel strongly enough to attack those who are bothered by it and want to make change. Got it.

/If you don't like it, then let those of us who do care handle it
//You don't worry your pretty little head over it anymore


Change what? You're upset because make-believe women don't look and act like real women, and somehow that makes real men want to treat real women like less than human. Your reasoning seems a lot like the "video games make kids kill" reasoning. Maybe you could explain it better, show some sound evidence that it's true, something besides your idiotic little condescension that only works to make me less inclined to offer you any help or compassion.
 
2013-01-18 10:22:10 PM  

HotWingAgenda: Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.


Japanese hideously disproportioned monsters are bad, but American hideously disproportioned monsters are okay?
 
2013-01-18 10:32:17 PM  
I'll just leave this here

http://humor.gunaxin.com/civilization-its-all-her-fault/33016
 
2013-01-18 11:05:48 PM  
For someone up-thread that said the difference is that men are just inherently not sexy:

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

i42.photobucket.com

Harry Bush (real name), genius master of the male pin-up.

Pretty much a dead art-form now that this generation of fit young men are willing to post selfie pics online with their iPhones without even getting paid for it.
 
2013-01-18 11:07:28 PM  

HotWingAgenda: Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.


I disagree. After 30 years of liking the fantasy genre in fiction, a little sci-fi, I loved epic length series fantasy novels that develops stories in the thousands of pages. Then 2 years ago I finally see some of the more quality anime. The good stories, ones that have over 200 episodes. This is what I loved all my life. Magic, swords, battles long duration character development. I may not be as far along to be annoying, but the plot material follows many of the same themes and fanservice is annoying. You must not have a lot of exposure to this or are just feeling judgemental. Some of the stories are the best fiction you can find, IMHO of course.

/I only found out what weeaboo was about 2 weeks ago.
 
2013-01-18 11:14:05 PM  

ProfessorOhki:
More and more ridiculous, but fine:
1) She didn't know I was there: why is she lying supine with her back-arched, semi-bound, with absolute cleavage? Just to get the jump on someone who might show up?
2) She already knew I was there. She's the farking Major. It doesn't matter what she looks like, if she was aware of me I'd be dead a dozen ways before I could even go "ooooh,"and almost more of them more efficient than taking the time to be ogled.

/I mean, FFS, she has thermoptic camo
//"Invisible" tends to give a pretty good tactical advantage



To be fair, there was an episode of the TV series where she takes Batou down, then chastises him for underestimating her because she has a sexy girl frame.
 
2013-01-18 11:24:45 PM  

Max Awesome: For someone up-thread that said the difference is that men are just inherently not sexy:

Harry Bush (real name), genius master of the male pin-up.

Pretty much a dead art-form now that this generation of fit young men are willing to post selfie pics online with their iPhones without even getting paid for it.


Reminds me a bit of Tom of Finland, one of my favorite male artists.

www.gayartcollection.com

brunogmuender.com

2.bp.blogspot.com

www.gayartcollection.com

tomoffinlandfoundation.org

1.bp.blogspot.com

www.guymag.net

Nnnnnngh, Manly Gay incarnate.

One of his naughty works (NSFW)
 
2013-01-18 11:39:56 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Max Awesome: For someone up-thread that said the difference is that men are just inherently not sexy:

Harry Bush (real name), genius master of the male pin-up.

Pretty much a dead art-form now that this generation of fit young men are willing to post selfie pics online with their iPhones without even getting paid for it.

Reminds me a bit of Tom of Finland, one of my favorite male artists.


I see the similarity. So what does that say about the Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre? It makes you wonder if Tom loved fantasy art or whether there is something about this style that represents something symbolic.
 
2013-01-18 11:48:17 PM  
Well this thread gayscalated quickly.
 
2013-01-18 11:53:11 PM  
Mods are asleep, post gay porn
 
2013-01-19 12:03:32 AM  

rev. dave: Keizer_Ghidorah: Max Awesome: For someone up-thread that said the difference is that men are just inherently not sexy:

Harry Bush (real name), genius master of the male pin-up.

Pretty much a dead art-form now that this generation of fit young men are willing to post selfie pics online with their iPhones without even getting paid for it.

Reminds me a bit of Tom of Finland, one of my favorite male artists.

I see the similarity. So what does that say about the Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre? It makes you wonder if Tom loved fantasy art or whether there is something about this style that represents something symbolic.


They both seem to have an ideal when it came to the physical body, that's for certain. And I can also see similarities between their works and the overall designs for male superheroes in comics, except the latter are usually not drawn in such detail (or with too much detail sometimes). What it might be symbolic of I don't know, though, I just know that they're very hot.
 
2013-01-19 12:28:19 AM  

rev. dave: HotWingAgenda: Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.

I disagree. After 30 years of liking the fantasy genre in fiction, a little sci-fi, I loved epic length series fantasy novels that develops stories in the thousands of pages. Then 2 years ago I finally see some of the more quality anime. The good stories, ones that have over 200 episodes. This is what I loved all my life. Magic, swords, battles long duration character development. I may not be as far along to be annoying, but the plot material follows many of the same themes and fanservice is annoying. You must not have a lot of exposure to this or are just feeling judgemental. Some of the stories are the best fiction you can find, IMHO of course.

/I only found out what weeaboo was about 2 weeks ago.


Do you have any recommendations or links for those of us who are unfamiliar with this genre?

I've often admired the artwork I've seen but don't have a clue where to start reading/viewing.
 
2013-01-19 12:31:19 AM  

Max Awesome: rev. dave: HotWingAgenda: Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.

I disagree. After 30 years of liking the fantasy genre in fiction, a little sci-fi, I loved epic length series fantasy novels that develops stories in the thousands of pages. Then 2 years ago I finally see some of the more quality anime. The good stories, ones that have over 200 episodes. This is what I loved all my life. Magic, swords, battles long duration character development. I may not be as far along to be annoying, but the plot material follows many of the same themes and fanservice is annoying. You must not have a lot of exposure to this or are just feeling judgemental. Some of the stories are the best fiction you can find, IMHO of course.

/I only found out what weeaboo was about 2 weeks ago.

Do you have any recommendations or links for those of us who are unfamiliar with this genre?

I've often admired the artwork I've seen but don't have a clue where to start reading/viewing.


Elfen Lied should warm you up
 
2013-01-19 12:33:53 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?

Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.

Are the fictional women not being paid enough to dress and pose they way they do? Are they being prevented from aspiring to higher positions in their places of employment? Are Power Girl and Rogue being forced to stay home and raise the kids? No? And if they were, does it matter, because they don't exist? Then I'm sorry, I don't see why I should get outraged at ink-and-paint characters being drawn more attractively than real people and posed in ways that real people can't imitate. Most of them also have superpowers, am I supposed to be outraged at that as well because real women can't shoot ice from their hands or create pshychokintetic blades?

I'm all for women's lib and equality in real life. I don't see the need or reason to demonize and attack comic books for it.

But you do feel strongly enough to attack those who are bothered by it and want to make change. Got it.

/If you don't like it, then let those of us who do care handle it
//You don't worry your pretty little head over it anymore

Change what? You're upset because make-believe women don't look and act like real women, and somehow that makes real men want to treat real women like less than human. Your reasoning seems a lot like the "video games make kids kill" reasoning. Maybe you could explain it better, show some sound evidence that it's true, something besides your idiotic little condescension that only works to make me less inclined to offer you any help or compassion.


That's a lot of assumptions you're making. And the only reason I was condescending towards you is because you opened like an asshole by calling those who want more positive female influence in fantasy "retarded."
 
2013-01-19 12:47:51 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah:

Reminds me a bit of Tom of Finland, one of my favorite male artists.


One of his naughty works (NSFW)


Tom's work is amazing and I used to think it was the ultimate in attractive male artwork, but the I discovered Harry Bush, and now Tom's work looks less impressive, even though they both use the same ink-wash technique.

I think the difference is that Bush based his drawings on photographs, and he had a much stronger grasp of anatomy, while Tom seems more cartoony and exaggerated to me.

Bringing this back to fantasy/comic book art: if today's fantasy artists based their artwork on real life models instead of just copying the broken-back short-hand bullshiat of other artists then even the sexy lady poses found in so many book covers and comic books would at least look grounded in reality.

This cover of the new all female X-Men book by Oliver Copiel is brilliant - strong X-Women, facing the viewer straight-on with no twisted spines or multiple butt-boob shots, and yet they look beautiful and confident.

i42.photobucket.com

It actually is possible to draw attractive fantasy females that will sell books to us fanboys without violating basic human anatomy.
 
2013-01-19 12:47:55 AM  
I've always assumed that the artists were attempting an accurate portrayal of the future, where we all know women will have no internal organs.
 
2013-01-19 12:49:44 AM  

Ed Grubermann: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 420x640]


That guy's face looks like a younger Stephen King.
 
2013-01-19 12:50:50 AM  

mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: They're fictional, made of ink and paper. And they're not going to make people think "Why can't real women be like this?! I HATE ALL REAL WOMEN NOW!!". Can we please stop being retarded about this so-called "problem"?

Because battling sexism in fictional media just isn't something you should worry your pretty little head over.

Are the fictional women not being paid enough to dress and pose they way they do? Are they being prevented from aspiring to higher positions in their places of employment? Are Power Girl and Rogue being forced to stay home and raise the kids? No? And if they were, does it matter, because they don't exist? Then I'm sorry, I don't see why I should get outraged at ink-and-paint characters being drawn more attractively than real people and posed in ways that real people can't imitate. Most of them also have superpowers, am I supposed to be outraged at that as well because real women can't shoot ice from their hands or create pshychokintetic blades?

I'm all for women's lib and equality in real life. I don't see the need or reason to demonize and attack comic books for it.

But you do feel strongly enough to attack those who are bothered by it and want to make change. Got it.

/If you don't like it, then let those of us who do care handle it
//You don't worry your pretty little head over it anymore

Change what? You're upset because make-believe women don't look and act like real women, and somehow that makes real men want to treat real women like less than human. Your reasoning seems a lot like the "video games make kids kill" reasoning. Maybe you could explain it better, show some sound evidence that it's true, something besides your idiotic little condescension that only works to make me less inclined to offer you any help or compassion.

That's a lot of assumptions you're making. And the only reason I was condescending towards you is because you opened like an asshole by calling those who want more positive female influence in fantasy "retarded."


So anyways, keizer, I apologize for being a dick. Can't post much, because I'm using my phone (difficult to articulate arguments and evidence on a smaller device). I'll try to do something better tomorrow, if I can get the chance, when I'm at my home computer.
 
2013-01-19 12:51:54 AM  

Fano: Elfen Lied


Hm, I just checked Wikipedia:

A majority of the episodes contain graphic violence, including instances of torture, and at one point the series addresses consequences of the rape of a child. The series also includes scenes that present female nudity and strong language (specifically in the English dub). The series juxtaposes many different tones and genres and was described by Anime News Network as "mixing insane amounts of violence with a heavy dose of 'ultra-cuteness.'"[10] The series balances its darker themes with romantic sub-plots as well as many comic moments. Elfen Lied has been described as similar to, or borrowing elements from Chobits, 3x3 Eyes[11] and Gunslinger Girl.[10]

Yeah, no thanks.
 
2013-01-19 01:11:29 AM  

Max Awesome: Fano: Elfen Lied

Hm, I just checked Wikipedia:

A majority of the episodes contain graphic violence, including instances of torture, and at one point the series addresses consequences of the rape of a child. The series also includes scenes that present female nudity and strong language (specifically in the English dub). The series juxtaposes many different tones and genres and was described by Anime News Network as "mixing insane amounts of violence with a heavy dose of 'ultra-cuteness.'"[10] The series balances its darker themes with romantic sub-plots as well as many comic moments. Elfen Lied has been described as similar to, or borrowing elements from Chobits, 3x3 Eyes[11] and Gunslinger Girl.[10]

Yeah, no thanks.


That's uh, a really restrained description of the show, actually.
 
2013-01-19 01:27:57 AM  

Max Awesome: Keizer_Ghidorah:

Reminds me a bit of Tom of Finland, one of my favorite male artists.

One of his naughty works (NSFW)

Tom's work is amazing and I used to think it was the ultimate in attractive male artwork, but the I discovered Harry Bush, and now Tom's work looks less impressive, even though they both use the same ink-wash technique.

I think the difference is that Bush based his drawings on photographs, and he had a much stronger grasp of anatomy, while Tom seems more cartoony and exaggerated to me.

Bringing this back to fantasy/comic book art: if today's fantasy artists based their artwork on real life models instead of just copying the broken-back short-hand bullshiat of other artists then even the sexy lady poses found in so many book covers and comic books would at least look grounded in reality.

This cover of the new all female X-Men book by Oliver Copiel is brilliant - strong X-Women, facing the viewer straight-on with no twisted spines or multiple butt-boob shots, and yet they look beautiful and confident.

[i42.photobucket.com image 534x711]

It actually is possible to draw attractive fantasy females that will sell books to us fanboys without violating basic human anatomy.


Personally, I don't care if it's "cartoony" or "Realistic", if I like how it looks then I like it. Poses don't bother me, sexiness doesn't bother me, if I like it then that's that.

And, honestly, it feels silly to me how everyone wants realism from a medium where people fly under their own power, change shapes at will, fire various types of beams and elements from their bodies, regularly battle gods and demons and giant robots, are from a myriad of alternate universes and dimensions, and aren't drawn to look realistic in the first place.
 
2013-01-19 02:14:44 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah:
And, honestly, it feels silly to me how everyone wants realism from a medium where people fly under their own power, change shapes at will, fire various types of beams and elements from their bodies, regularly battle gods and demons and giant robots, are from a myriad of alternate universes and dimensions, and aren't drawn to look realistic in the first place.


Heh. Yeah, true that.

The latest issue of Captain Marvel was drawn by the new series regular artist Filipe Andrade , who is not at all a traditional comic book illustrator; he's much more loose and cartoony. A lot of fans are freaking out about his non-realistic style - but for some reason I love it:

i42.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-19 02:43:54 AM  

rev. dave: HotWingAgenda: Dear weeaboos,

Japanimation is not the same f*cking thing as Sci-Fi or Fantasy art. Leave your hideously disproportioned monsters in your mom's basement.

I disagree. After 30 years of liking the fantasy genre in fiction, a little sci-fi, I loved epic length series fantasy novels that develops stories in the thousands of pages. Then 2 years ago I finally see some of the more quality anime. The good stories, ones that have over 200 episodes. This is what I loved all my life. Magic, swords, battles long duration character development. I may not be as far along to be annoying, but the plot material follows many of the same themes and fanservice is annoying. You must not have a lot of exposure to this or are just feeling judgemental. Some of the stories are the best fiction you can find, IMHO of course.

/I only found out what weeaboo was about 2 weeks ago.


Do you like space opera? If you do, stop what you're doing right now and go find some Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
 
2013-01-19 03:20:28 AM  

Max Awesome: Do you have any recommendations or links for those of us who are unfamiliar with this genre?


Battle Angel Alita was one of the first manga I ever read. It is full of combat, action, and blood and guts, along with beautiful stories about finding your true self, stories of love, loss, and letting go of the past.

I re-read it about once a year. The story and character development is so incredible I still tear up at parts of it.

Ghost in the Shell is more of the story of an elite special forces task force who uncover various nefarious schemes by terrorists and government agencies. Robots, powered armor, brain hacking, body swapping, and close quarters combat. There is less in the way of character development, because the story is about uncovering the various plots more then it is about the characters growing and changing. (Ghost in the shell 2: Innocence is a somewhat notable exception, which partially revolves around the mental state of Batou after what happens at the end of the first movie.)

Appleseed is a story about the distant future, where humanity has pretty much wiped itself out. To help prevent the complete destruction of humanity, scientists created Bioroids, genetically altered humans who do not have the capacity for strong emotion like love, hate, and rage. They act as a buffer between humans to keep society stable. Naturally, not all humans like this idea, and are afraid the bioroids will wipe out humanity entirely. City destroying battles ensue with giant suits of powered armor. There is also something of a love story between the Deunan and her point man Briarios, who lost his body in the war and is now a complete cyborg.

If you're looking for a philosophical sort of thing that will leave you scratching your head and wondering just what the hell is going on, I recommend Serial Experiments Lain. It's a story that takes place in "present day, present time" and begins when a little girl named Lain begins getting e-mails from classmates who have committed suicide, that claim they have only given up their bodies.

Anything by Myazaki is fantastic, family friendly (though sometimes violent and a bit scary), and worth watching. Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Howls Moving Castle, Naussica, all are absolutely amazing.

Cowboy bebop is fantastic. Incredible animation, great plot, and it's cowboys in space hunting bounties. It never gets to serious either, A lot of vignettes, frequently driven by characters back stories.

Samurai Champloo is like cowboy bebop, only in a fictitious feudal Japan. Great music, great fights, and again, lots of vignettes without too deep of a backstory to worry about.

If you like vampires, Check out Hellsing.

The new Evangelion Movies are bloody fantastic. The original series is worth watching, but gets dragged down a bit by the depression Anno was suffering while writing it. EVERYONE is psychologically damaged, and he spends a bit too much time making that point clear. Also, the Eva TV series got its funding pulled near the end due to a particularly gruesome giant robot fight. Rivers ran red with blood. The last 2 episodes are mostly stock footage and storyboards due to lack of money. The movies, End of Evangelion, and Death and Rebirth are... well I think they are an expression of anno's rage at people not understanding the TV series. If you watch all of the TV series and like it, you'll probably like them too, but you will be shocked.

Stay away from shiat like elfen lied, chobits, lucky star, and pretty much anything that revolves around high school life. It's all crap pandering to what tests well with otaku, and they tend to lack serious depth.
 
2013-01-19 04:01:27 AM  
It's almost as if comic book drawings were not photographs and might rely on exaggerated if not symbolic imagery to convey visual information.
 
2013-01-19 04:15:45 AM  

Mutt Farkinov: Ed Grubermann: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 420x640]

That guy's face looks like a younger Stephen King.


It is. Paul Sheldon is the main character in Misery. That's the fake book cover for the Misery book Kathy Bates forced out of that dirty birdie Paul.
 
2013-01-19 05:37:29 AM  

fluffy2097: pretty much anything that revolves around high school life.


Two exceptions. Ranma 1/2 and Vision of Escaflowne.

Ranma because it is just so bizarre and most decidedly NOT grounded in reality. It takes what might have been typical teenage drama and turns it sideways every chance it gets and typically in a very comedic fashion. It is hard to sum up a show where in the first episode the main character gets cursed, ends up changing into a girl when he gets hit with cold water, finds out he is supposed to be in an arranged marriage, and has his bride to be hit him over the head with a table because he thinks he has nicer breasts. Oh, and his dad is also cursed and ends up turning into a panda.

Escaflowne starts off looking and sounding like a sappy teen high school romance. Then all of the sudden you have dragons, angels, flying fortresses, and magic powered steampunk mechs with political drama and war. In the middle of all this you still have the whiny love sick teenage girl trying to figure out what just happened to her life and her world. Pretty much the only real downside is they picked one of the most annoying voice actors I have ever heard for one of the main villains. On the other hand it does help the audience hate him and want to see him die so maybe that is what they were going for when they did the casting.
 
2013-01-19 06:38:39 AM  

fluffy2097: Cowboy bebop is fantastic. Incredible animation, great plot, and it's cowboys in space hunting bounties. It never gets to serious either, A lot of vignettes, frequently driven by characters back stories.


Seconding.

fluffy2097: pretty much anything that revolves around high school life. It's all crap pandering to what tests well with otaku, and they tend to lack serious depth.


One of those exceptions however is, Great Teacher Onizuka. Ex-biker gang leader becomes a high school teacher and gets a class of delinquents at a private school. Amazing ensues.

And if you're looking for sci-fi, I'd suggest:
1) Time of Eve - 6 episode series that's harder sci-fi than most animu. A very Asimov look at the sociology of human/android interaction; takes place in a coffee shop that has the rule of not drawing a distinction between man and machine. Absolutely orgeous art. Link
2) PlanetES - About a team of space debris retrieval specialists; pretty hard sci-fi, with a handful of comedic episodes. Goes into the ramifications of an economy shifting to space and what that means for the countries that don't have the infrastructure to keep up.
 
2013-01-19 06:49:59 AM  

Hacker_X: fluffy2097: pretty much anything that revolves around high school life.

Two exceptions. Ranma 1/2 and Vision of Escaflowne.

Ranma because it is just so bizarre and most decidedly NOT grounded in reality. It takes what might have been typical teenage drama and turns it sideways every chance it gets and typically in a very comedic fashion. It is hard to sum up a show where in the first episode the main character gets cursed, ends up changing into a girl when he gets hit with cold water, finds out he is supposed to be in an arranged marriage, and has his bride to be hit him over the head with a table because he thinks he has nicer breasts. Oh, and his dad is also cursed and ends up turning into a panda.

Escaflowne starts off looking and sounding like a sappy teen high school romance. Then all of the sudden you have dragons, angels, flying fortresses, and magic powered steampunk mechs with political drama and war. In the middle of all this you still have the whiny love sick teenage girl trying to figure out what just happened to her life and her world. Pretty much the only real downside is they picked one of the most annoying voice actors I have ever heard for one of the main villains. On the other hand it does help the audience hate him and want to see him die so maybe that is what they were going for when they did the casting.


I agree! Ranma 1/2 set the bar for slapstick harem anime, and people have been poorly imitating it ever since.

The Slayers is also fantastic fantasy comedy.

Escaflowne is wonderful as well.

My theory behind this is that they were made in the late 80s and early 90s. shiat's all been downhill since then with very few exceptions.

About the time when anime became big business in America, then crashed because fansubbers could do the job of corporations better, faster and cheaper, everything went into the toilet.

Not to mention that Satoshi Kon died, the Creator of Perfect Blue, Paranoia Agent and Paprika.

Masamune Shirow now has oodles of cash to and is set for life, and just draws porn for a living now. I'd love for him to produce more work but he's put out so many incredible stories I can see that he might simply be tapped out. Real Drive was interesting, but had a lot of vagueness in the plot that is just unlike him. Still, it had wonderful characters... Holon
Miyazaki is no longer producing as many incredible works either. He's still making things, but they just haven't been so epic since howls moving castle in 2004 if you ask me.

Yoshiatoshi ABe, Who did Lain, Haibane Renmei and Texhnolyze hasn't put anything out in almost a decade either.

We've lost all the great visionaries, and they've been replaced with network executives who just want things that will get viewership.
 
2013-01-19 06:53:57 AM  

ProfessorOhki:
And if you're looking for sci-fi, I'd suggest:
1) Time of Eve - 6 episode series that's harder sci-fi than most animu. A very Asimov look at the sociology of human/android interaction; takes place in a coffee shop that has the rule of not drawing a distinction between man and machine. Absolutely orgeous art. Link
2) PlanetES - About a team of space debris retrieval specialists; pretty hard sci-fi, with a handful of comedic episodes. Goes into the ramifications of an economy shifting to space and what that means for the countries that don't have the infrastructure to keep up.


I have watched both of those and loved them.

PlanetES is a bit hard to get into though. The heroine is a whiny obnoxious high school brat through the first 3 episodes or so before she settles in and becomes cool, and the story languishes a bit towards the end, but it's worth the watching.
 
2013-01-19 06:59:06 AM  
Another good recent one was REDLINE.

Scifi-fantasy with a wonderful disregard for the laws of physics, reality or sanity, and it revels in it. The art style is incredible, and it's about an illegal space race where the military's of entire planets try to stop them, only to be completely helpless. Graffitiing the finish line over the central government building of the planet most against the race was a stroke of genius.
 
2013-01-19 07:03:51 AM  

fluffy2097: We've lost all the great visionaries, and they've been replaced with network executives who just want things that will get viewership.


Define "visionary"

www.mechadamashii.com
"...and they're like *zoom* *pew pew pew* and then everyone starts singing at the aliens."
"that's... retarded"
"uuuuh, combining orgasm robot fights a gay angel?"
"Wait, what? No. Damn it Shoji, you've got one chance left."
"Alright, alright, what if CARS could play BASKETBALL?"

/Who am I kidding
//everything he touches turns into gold
///and missiles
 
2013-01-19 07:13:15 AM  

ProfessorOhki: fluffy2097: We've lost all the great visionaries, and they've been replaced with network executives who just want things that will get viewership.

Define "visionary"

[www.mechadamashii.com image 480x347]
"...and they're like *zoom* *pew pew pew* and then everyone starts singing at the aliens."
"that's... retarded"
"uuuuh, combining orgasm robot fights a gay angel?"
"Wait, what? No. Damn it Shoji, you've got one chance left."
"Alright, alright, what if CARS could play BASKETBALL?"

/Who am I kidding
//everything he touches turns into gold
///and missiles


images.wikia.com

Approves.
 
2013-01-19 07:14:01 AM  

fluffy2097: Another good recent one was REDLINE.

Scifi-fantasy with a wonderful disregard for the laws of physics, reality or sanity, and it revels in it. The art style is incredible, and it's about an illegal space race where the military's of entire planets try to stop them, only to be completely helpless. Graffitiing the finish line over the central government building of the planet most against the race was a stroke of genius.


Again, seconding. Saw that one in a theater, I see why it took 7 years to produce. One last rec before I take of. Recent one (in case older animations bugs you): Tiger & Bunny. It's Mystery Men meets buddy cop. Corporately sponsored superheros, they team the idealistic veteran who's popularity's sagged up with new guy. Worth mentioning if not just for the fact the lead character is a late 30's single dad instead of generic highschool kid #45617 which is refreshing.
 
2013-01-19 09:38:03 AM  

fluffy2097: Two exceptions. Ranma 1/2 and Vision of Escaflowne.


I've got to put another vote in for Slayers. It is an awesome anime series.
 
2013-01-19 11:21:18 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Change what?


Here's a good start to get background information: Link

It's not just comics. You make it seem like I'm attacking your precious comic books. I read comics.  So does my wife and so do a lot of my female friends.  It's geek culture in general.  There are so many other media where the same problem exists.  I usually focus on table top RPGs, and if you read the previous posts, you may have noticed that Mike Chewbacca and I were talking about it.

It does affect real life. When a woman walks into a hobby store and sees that most of the products are aimed at objectifying women, it can be degrading. It teaches people that it's acceptable.  In comics, female characters are usually the ones who wear sexy, revealing costumes that have nothing to do with their character.  Female characters are usually posed in a porn star pose. I've heard complaints that only beautiful women are created, and you rarely seen average or ugly, but in comic books, that's usually true for all the characters, so in my opinion, it balances out. However, in RPGs, it doesn't.  For men, you can find an array of ugly, average, and hot men in various styles and cultures. However, when women are depicted, they're almost always hot and sexy, wearing revealing clothing.  Or when you have plot lines in fantastic comics (and other media) that simply use women as part of the plot without actually caring about them. Like in the Batman comic, "The Killer Joke" where Barbara Gorden was kidnapped, paralyzed, and degraded as a plot hook for the male characters, and then she was forgotten about. Before that even happened, though, Moore asked DC for permission, and the exact quote he got in response was, "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."

It's not that some comics are bad and some are good. It's that it is so prevalent among geek culture that it's an issue.  And I don't really know what to do about it, except raise awareness and simply talk about it.

So why do I, as a male, talk about this? Because I've actually listened to women complain about these issues. I didn't hand-wave their concerns aside, and say, "They're just comic books; they don't exist. Get over it."
 
2013-01-19 12:05:03 PM  

mgshamster: "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."


Oh my god, that is horrible. Did she call the police, or was the Batman involved?
 
2013-01-19 12:38:40 PM  

Max Awesome: Keizer_Ghidorah:
And, honestly, it feels silly to me how everyone wants realism from a medium where people fly under their own power, change shapes at will, fire various types of beams and elements from their bodies, regularly battle gods and demons and giant robots, are from a myriad of alternate universes and dimensions, and aren't drawn to look realistic in the first place.

Heh. Yeah, true that.

The latest issue of Captain Marvel was drawn by the new series regular artist Filipe Andrade , who is not at all a traditional comic book illustrator; he's much more loose and cartoony. A lot of fans are freaking out about his non-realistic style - but for some reason I love it:

[i42.photobucket.com image 500x632]


So do I actually; it's a little off-kilter but it's fun looking.
 
2013-01-19 02:30:25 PM  

fluffy2097: Max Awesome: Do you have any recommendations or links for those of us who are unfamiliar with this genre?

Battle Angel Alita was one of the first manga I ever read. It is full of combat, action, and blood and guts, along with beautiful stories about finding your true self, stories of love, loss, and letting go of the past.

I re-read it about once a year. The story and character development is so incredible I still tear up at parts of it.

Ghost in the Shell is more of the story of an elite special forces task force who uncover various nefarious schemes by terrorists and government agencies. Robots, powered armor, brain hacking, body swapping, and close quarters combat. There is less in the way of character development, because the story is about uncovering the various plots more then it is about the characters growing and changing. (Ghost in the shell 2: Innocence is a somewhat notable exception, which partially revolves around the mental state of Batou after what happens at the end of the first movie.)

Appleseed is a story about the distant future, where humanity has pretty much wiped itself out. To help prevent the complete destruction of humanity, scientists created Bioroids, genetically altered humans who do not have the capacity for strong emotion like love, hate, and rage. They act as a buffer between humans to keep society stable. Naturally, not all humans like this idea, and are afraid the bioroids will wipe out humanity entirely. City destroying battles ensue with giant suits of powered armor. There is also something of a love story between the Deunan and her point man Briarios, who lost his body in the war and is now a complete cyborg.

If you're looking for a philosophical sort of thing that will leave you scratching your head and wondering just what the hell is going on, I recommend Serial Experiments Lain. It's a story that takes place in "present day, present time" and begins when a little girl named Lain begins getting e-mails from classmates who ...


Brilliant - thanks for the recommendations.
 
2013-01-19 03:45:00 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Theaetetus: We could also talk about clothing. I don't think that one's nearly so blatant, beyond the half-tank. Would you ever see a comic cover with a guy wearing tight leather pants and a tank top? Sure. Full body spandex suit? Absolutely.
But this?

I take it you either don't read comics at all or have someone else buy them for you. Otherwise you'd probably have heard of Namor, who is bare-chested and whose entire uniform consists of a codpiece:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 471x726]

Admittedly, there is more cleavage on female uniforms because it's actually been compatible with female fashion longer than it has with male, but actually a lot of male character designs for characters originating in the 70s/80s or earlier used it as shorthand for virility as well:

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 520x799]
(OK, so this was after they changed it to a vest, my GIS skills are bad, I'm sorry)

There was actually an entire aesthetic movement called "camp" that emphasized male secondary sexual characteristics in art/performance and de-emphasized female. The most recent example I can pull up offhand is the Batman and Robin film. You might know it as the one with nipples on the bat-suit, but if you think a bit longer you might realize that a lot of the female costumes were fairly low on cleavage (freeze's minion was in a parka even in scenes that weren't particularly cold, iirc)

//This isn't probably an argument you want to get into on this particular forum, by the way, if you actually want to 'win', because any example you can think of has probably been done at some point without a trace of irony, and a lot of us read the damned things.
//Though, if you want to learn a lot of vaguely uncomfortable things about comics or exploitation media in general...


When did Freddy Mercury kill Spider Man?
 
2013-01-20 01:48:11 AM  

fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.


Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.
 
2013-01-20 02:13:48 AM  

ColdFusion: fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.

Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.


Assume makes an ass of you and me. Try not to do it too much.

They've also been using the "kids seeing women in comic books will make them see real women as objects and disrespect them" card, which is of equal stupidity as the "video games make kids violent" argument.
 
2013-01-20 05:13:11 AM  
i1172.photobucket.com

farking feminists try to ruin everything that men and boys enjoy, its a full on hate movement. tomorrow i am going to fap a few times to chicks who have had their clits removed just to spite them.
 
2013-01-20 05:30:13 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: ColdFusion: fluffy2097: mgshamster: I'm confused; are you trying to argue that posing women in physically impossible sexual poses that has nothing to do with the situation they are in (which is usually fighting in combat) while wearing skimpy outfits and high heels is ok simply because other media exists where that doesn't happen?

I'm arguing that there are plenty of strong female characters out there that aren't drawn by comic book artists who don't know how anatomy works, and it's farking silly to get your panties in a wad over Rob Liefeld and his ilk.

I'm also arguing that there are situations where a strong female heroine can use sexuality and lack of clothing to her advantage, without being a helpless waif.

Okay, so what does this have to do with mocking stupidity? No one is screaming for laws or censorship. It seems it's just a silly ribbing and criticism; both of which ALSO happens in comics, along with other media. There are no jackbooted lesbo-feminazis knocking down doors and seizing comics and anime from greasy teens, to be taken to the book burning. Just "LOL, look at this stupid shiat! Isn't it stupid?" and "Here's why it is stupid: [Insert criticism]."

It seems YOU have your panties in a bunch, scared someone's going to ban artwork of women because a bunch of people think a segment of artwork of women looks stupid and subject it to ridicule.

Assume makes an ass of you and me. Try not to do it too much.

They've also been using the "kids seeing women in comic books will make them see real women as objects and disrespect them" card, which is of equal stupidity as the "video games make kids violent" argument.


Luckily, I did not assume, didn't even use the word.

For all the people complaining about how comics might do this and might do that, not a single law proposed. Just a lot of biatching on the internet, unlike the actual real-life attempts to do something about banning violent video games. Huh. Fancy that.

Do you go into Apple threads and tell people to stop getting their panties in a bunch over Apple products because they're ripping on the ridiculously overpriced hardware? Oooh, lemme guess, you go into Politics threads and tell people that "The Libz are teh scared" because they're mocking some Republican for spewing some derpy thing.
 
2013-01-20 05:42:48 PM  

mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: Change what?

Here's a good start to get background information: Link

It's not just comics. You make it seem like I'm attacking your precious comic books. I read comics.  So does my wife and so do a lot of my female friends.  It's geek culture in general.  There are so many other media where the same problem exists.  I usually focus on table top RPGs, and if you read the previous posts, you may have noticed that Mike Chewbacca and I were talking about it.

It does affect real life. When a woman walks into a hobby store and sees that most of the products are aimed at objectifying women, it can be degrading. It teaches people that it's acceptable.  In comics, female characters are usually the ones who wear sexy, revealing costumes that have nothing to do with their character.  Female characters are usually posed in a porn star pose. I've heard complaints that only beautiful women are created, and you rarely seen average or ugly, but in comic books, that's usually true for all the characters, so in my opinion, it balances out. However, in RPGs, it doesn't.  For men, you can find an array of ugly, average, and hot men in various styles and cultures. However, when women are depicted, they're almost always hot and sexy, wearing revealing clothing.  Or when you have plot lines in fantastic comics (and other media) that simply use women as part of the plot without actually caring about them. Like in the Batman comic, "The Killer Joke" where Barbara Gorden was kidnapped, paralyzed, and degraded as a plot hook for the male characters, and then she was forgotten about. Before that even happened, though, Moore asked DC for permission, and the exact quote he got in response was, "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."

It's not that some comics are bad and some are good. It's that it is so prevalent among geek culture that it's an issue.  And I don't really know what to do about it, except raise awareness and simply talk about it.


Go talk about it in this thread, where skimpy girls in impractical outfits contorting themselves is being constantly applauded
 
2013-01-20 06:32:38 PM  

fluffy2097: mgshamster: Keizer_Ghidorah: Change what?

Here's a good start to get background information: Link

It's not just comics. You make it seem like I'm attacking your precious comic books. I read comics.  So does my wife and so do a lot of my female friends.  It's geek culture in general.  There are so many other media where the same problem exists.  I usually focus on table top RPGs, and if you read the previous posts, you may have noticed that Mike Chewbacca and I were talking about it.

It does affect real life. When a woman walks into a hobby store and sees that most of the products are aimed at objectifying women, it can be degrading. It teaches people that it's acceptable.  In comics, female characters are usually the ones who wear sexy, revealing costumes that have nothing to do with their character.  Female characters are usually posed in a porn star pose. I've heard complaints that only beautiful women are created, and you rarely seen average or ugly, but in comic books, that's usually true for all the characters, so in my opinion, it balances out. However, in RPGs, it doesn't.  For men, you can find an array of ugly, average, and hot men in various styles and cultures. However, when women are depicted, they're almost always hot and sexy, wearing revealing clothing.  Or when you have plot lines in fantastic comics (and other media) that simply use women as part of the plot without actually caring about them. Like in the Batman comic, "The Killer Joke" where Barbara Gorden was kidnapped, paralyzed, and degraded as a plot hook for the male characters, and then she was forgotten about. Before that even happened, though, Moore asked DC for permission, and the exact quote he got in response was, "Yeah, okay, cripple the biatch."

It's not that some comics are bad and some are good. It's that it is so prevalent among geek culture that it's an issue.  And I don't really know what to do about it, except raise awareness and simply talk about it.


Go talk about it in th ...


OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!
 
2013-01-20 07:55:50 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!


I know right? We should just call them all fat ugly whores I guess...
 
2013-01-20 08:33:34 PM  

fluffy2097: Keizer_Ghidorah: OH MY GOD, MEN FIND GOOD-LOOKING WOMEN ATTRACTIVE! HOW DARE THEY?! WHY DO MEN MAKE WOMEN INTO OBJECTS AND DEMEAN THEM SO MUCH WITH THEIR LOVE AND APPRECIATION?!

I know right? We should just call them all fat ugly whores I guess...


And that they've been brainwashed by the male-dominated culture to demean themselves for attention, since American men see only boobs and don't care about personality.
 
2013-01-20 08:59:22 PM  
You guys win. Women don't need a positive influence in geek culture. They should just shut up and accept the fact that they'll be marginalized and stay out of the geek's world. You're right. I give up.
 
2013-01-20 09:20:54 PM  

mgshamster: You guys win. Women don't need a positive influence in geek culture. They should just shut up and accept the fact that they'll be marginalized and stay out of the geek's world. You're right. I give up.


I'd like you to point out whenever any of us said that. I'd also like to point out that there already are positive female influences in "geek culture". I'd also like to point out how your views of this topic are "Because fictional women are drawn better-looking and more flexible than real women, then boys will hate real women and treat them as objects and garbage".
 
2013-01-20 10:01:15 PM  

fluffy2097: Stay away from shiat like elfen lied, chobits, lucky star, and pretty much anything that revolves around high school life.


What about High School of the Dead?
/joking, it wasn't the best.

If suggesting anime, here's what I've been working my way through. There are updated and larger lists of this online as well.
 
2013-01-20 10:18:06 PM  

fluffy2097: If you like vampires, Check out Hellsing.


Specifically Hellsing Ultimate. They finished their last (10th) episode late last year to finish the anime. Was great.
If into vampires also check out Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust and Trinity Blood
 
2013-01-20 10:21:28 PM  
Sorry for multiposting, but realized that imgur resized the image, making it useless.
Original
 
2013-01-20 10:26:45 PM  
For fark's sake, women think tall(er)/muscular men are sexy and men think small(er)/curvy women are sexy.

Of course, there are many other viewpoints and opinions. However, the majority rules and everyone, together, creates the memes behind these marketing images. It is not the plot of one gender looking to undermine the other gender. It is everyone and the choices they make to satisfy their horny urges and validate themselves against another.

Take responsibility for yourselves if you have a problem with sexy women or muscular men in pictures on the cover of entertainment media. Otherwise, quit whining and move on with your life to more important things.
 
2013-01-21 01:02:11 AM  

swahnhennessy: A lot of defensiveness in this thread.

God, I hope many of you are being purposely obtuse.


A vocal minority of people here get really creepy and angry when gender is discussed. I'm convinced most of that group is socially inept and probably afraid of women in real life.
 
2013-01-21 10:55:29 AM  
I think the female supremacists are tapping out too early. Why not go after the root of the problem.

0.tqn.com

Here is a 4th century BCE vase that depicts the horrible rape of a woman by a Centaur with a violent response by a muscular Heracles.

Women are obviously being objectified by this myth. Let's stop the madness.
 
2013-01-21 08:38:15 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I think the female supremacists are tapping out too early. Why not go after the root of the problem.

[0.tqn.com image 850x650]

Here is a 4th century BCE vase that depicts the horrible rape of a woman by a Centaur with a violent response by a muscular Heracles.

Women are obviously being objectified by this myth. Let's stop the madness.


How can the centaur rape her if she's on his back, and why is Hercules about to stab the woman in the ass? Also, the centaur's front human hips are broken.
 
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