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(BBC)   This just in: The women depicted in Fantasy and Sci-fi art are drawn often in such a way that it almost seems like adolescent males are the target market or something   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 269
    More: Obvious, target markets, book cover, romantic interest, fantasy literature, female characters, original work, sexisms, beauties  
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5092 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-18 09:20:55 AM
I was always a fan of this one.
rawrgg.com
 
2013-01-18 09:20:55 AM
I'm not going to jump to conclusions. I need to do a complete survey of the fantasy art in question before weighing in with my own opinion.

I'll be in my bunk.
 
2013-01-18 09:26:30 AM
Dear god!  Do you know what this means?!  Adolescent males are reading books.

True, it is ridiculous with the poses. What about the girls that are getting off to the different gender portrayals?  Particularly, to the other women in those positions?  Or is that hot or something?

Have you seen the covers of the books that aim towards the middle aged female demographic?
 
2013-01-18 09:30:20 AM
Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

i76.photobucket.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-18 09:31:48 AM
Makh: Have you seen the covers of the books that aim towards the middle aged female demographic?

I accidentally read a romance novel once because it had a non-Fabio cover. But it was British, not American genre-bound crap, so it doesn't count against my manhood.
 
2013-01-18 09:56:07 AM
Adolescent male is redundant.
 
2013-01-18 10:01:02 AM

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


He has some of those too.

Also, women are usually scantily clad on those covers as well. They are called bodice rippers because of that.
 
2013-01-18 10:08:16 AM

serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]


Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.
 
2013-01-18 10:16:46 AM

I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.


I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?
 
2013-01-18 10:21:48 AM

serial_crusher: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?


In the case of that pic, I think it is true.  In the case of almost every super-heroine not named Black Widow, the female is depicted in lingerie.
 
2013-01-18 10:24:15 AM
 
2013-01-18 10:25:20 AM
They're saying all this started because of Boris Vallejo?  Ok...I can see that.
 
2013-01-18 10:25:22 AM
I prefer to think of their target audience as stunted men-children.
 
2013-01-18 10:30:46 AM

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


Exactly:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 10:39:36 AM

UberDave: They're saying all this started because of Boris Vallejo?  Ok...I can see that.


and Ironically, Boris drew the male form just as scantily clad and unrealisitic as the female one.  His male models were the professional body builders who hung out in Venice beach, including a young pre-Mr. Universe Arnold Schwarzenegger.  There is a reason Arnie looks like he was born to play Conan
 
2013-01-18 10:50:44 AM

I_C_Weener: Adolescent male is redundant.


I believe we're done here
 
2013-01-18 10:55:58 AM

serial_crusher: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not to agree with that.  Are they showing off their bodies, or their super powers (which, in Hulk and captain America's case, are the same thing)?


It's kinda a moot point in a way. Their male bodies are still ridiculously over-idealized. (If they were able to draw their junk, I'm sure that would also be idealized to the point of absurdity.)
 
2013-01-18 11:05:57 AM
Marketing is sexist. Next.
 
2013-01-18 11:13:32 AM
I dress in women's clothes ironically. To prove a point.  Seriously, that all it is.

It puts the lotion on its skin ...
 
2013-01-18 11:19:07 AM

I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.


But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
3.bp.blogspot.com

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
upload.wikimedia.org

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.
 
2013-01-18 11:19:22 AM

kid_icarus: Well at least women would never idealize men that way...

[i76.photobucket.com image 300x485]


This.
 
2013-01-18 11:22:24 AM
FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.
 
2013-01-18 11:22:29 AM

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


What are you talking about? Look at Batman with those bulging thighs and taut buttocks, getting ready to go down on his knees in a back alley for some rough trade with Green Arrow.
 
2013-01-18 11:24:41 AM
The worst offender is Rob Liefeld

assets.sbnation.com

Dear Rob:  Women have spines.

assets.sbnation.com assets.sbnation.com

Dear Rob:  Yes, women have vaginas.  There's no need to actually outline them.  Also, we don't always stand on tiptoe.

/Although, it's a valid argument if you say he's absolutely awful at any anatomy.  Especially feet.
 
2013-01-18 11:25:00 AM
Its more lazy than sexist. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, GREG LAND.
 
2013-01-18 11:25:52 AM
From the Rick Romero reporting institution...
 
2013-01-18 11:32:24 AM

Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.


You see a woman with a bloodied sword, glaring at someone off-screen while doing the "techno-viking point" to be "submissive"?   I hope you've worked out a good safeword for that kind of play.
 
2013-01-18 11:33:40 AM
Hah! He did it for one of his own books, too. And possibly it's what started him on this.

www.sff.net
 
2013-01-18 11:36:47 AM
The guy in the article has way too much time on his hands.

His soft soft hands....
 
2013-01-18 11:39:51 AM

Disposable Rob: FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.


Hey, hey, hey...he's not really that overweight.
 
2013-01-18 11:40:50 AM
This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."
 
2013-01-18 11:47:14 AM

WinoRhino: This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."


how would the friend know? he's doing D&D art in public.
 
2013-01-18 11:48:21 AM
I hope these researchers never get around to looking at video games.
 
2013-01-18 11:53:08 AM
FTFA:

Many science fiction and fantasy readers are disappointed to encounter everyday sexism in a medium that is supposed to offer an escape.

Bullshait
 
2013-01-18 11:55:41 AM
Whoops I forgot something. Disappointment does occur if Rob Liefeld did the cover.

Sorry
 
2013-01-18 11:59:13 AM
Reminds me of XXX: State of the Union (quite possibly the worst movie I've seen in a theater). The male commandos wore normal stuff: night vision goggles, body armor, lots of gear and pouches. The female commando wore a skin-tight leather bodysuit.
 
2013-01-18 12:00:46 PM
i38.tinypic.com

really? nobody?
 
2013-01-18 12:05:28 PM
This was drawn by a female friend of mine. She likes female characters to be sexy (and she's not a lesbian). People shouldn't assume that women don't want fantasy (or game) characters to be attractive.
 
2013-01-18 12:09:24 PM
And all the male characters look like they spray their clothes on out of a can.
 
2013-01-18 12:09:46 PM
derp. wrong thread.
 
2013-01-18 12:13:12 PM

Enfenestrate: And all the male characters look like they spray their clothes on out of a can.


I should clarify. In the the more fantasy stuff the guys wear loincloths and go shirtless. It's almost seems like lonely 40-something housewives are the target market or something.
 
2013-01-18 12:23:26 PM

Magorn: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc...  So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Men are posed in dominant positions, balanced, ready for combat, etc .:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x401]

The sexism isn't due to the fact that they're idealized, but due to the differences in power displayed, and the implication that men=power and women=sex.

You see a woman with a bloodied sword, glaring at someone off-screen while doing the "techno-viking point" to be "submissive"?   I hope you've worked out a good safeword for that kind of play.


I think that would count as the latter category: "sexualized position"

That woman has both her ass and her chest towards the viewer, a position that's fairly difficult to do in real life.  For example, this martial artist and contortionist tried to imitate it, and couldn't.
 
2013-01-18 12:27:11 PM
Holy shiat! You mean that in our fantasy we want men to be powerful warriors that are forces to be reckoned with and our damsels to be sexy? Young men want to be white knights and the princess they rescue to be as beautiful as she is grateful? Let's face it. No one is going to risk life and limb to rescue an uggo. That is why only cute women that go missing make the news!

This is outrageous! Everyone knows that no woman ever, like 0.0%, ever pictured themselves as the damsel in distress and a powerful and courageous man coming to save her. Women do not pretend to be princesses, hell, they don't even like princesses, which accounts for the universal hatred of Diana.

When will the world realize that there are no differences between the wants and motivations of men and women and no need for different marketing techniques that apply to them separately?
 
2013-01-18 12:27:26 PM

serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.
[rawrgg.com image 720x377]


I was always impressed by that one with Psylocke jumping down on someone with something that looks like a weird 3rd leg sticking up. Can't find a copy of it at the moment, but I'm sure someone will provide.
 
2013-01-18 12:44:01 PM
This thread needs more Hawkeye Initiative.
 
2013-01-18 12:45:33 PM
I like my whores illustrated and this clown is ruining EVERYTHING!!!
 
2013-01-18 12:47:17 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-18 12:48:04 PM
To be honest, I stopped caring after it was pointed out that it's impossible to draw a sexually appealing woman without being sexist, because being sexually appealing is inherently submitting to the male desires that define sexual appeal (or something similar - the derp level in that class had gotten so far that I sort of zoned out).

So if it's impossible anyway, then who cares? Draw and enjoy what appeals to you, and everyone else can go fark themselves if they don't like it.
 
2013-01-18 12:49:26 PM
Codex Chief Executive Officer Peter Hildick-Smith remains puzzled why science fiction and fantasy publishers sell sexualised covers.

Actual literary Sci-Fi and Fantasy do no such thing. However, pulp subgenre books for every genre will do literally anything to catch the casual viewer's eye and get them to pick the book up. Some of the worst offenders are actually Detective/Mystery novels, even the ones ostensibly written for women.

Here's the difference:

Hard SciFi cover (space opera):
upload.wikimedia.org

Pulp Scifi cover (space opera):
2.bp.blogspot.com
//Though, in all fairness, the pulps have had a large influence on more adult-ish works, so there is some merit to the "it's just a tradition" argument.
 
2013-01-18 01:07:37 PM
Oh, for pity's sake. Everyone likes boobs.

Women would be MORE upset if men started ignoring their looks.
 
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