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(Talking Points Memo)   ESA: Video games don't cause violent behavior. Just because you keep getting pwned by 10-year-olds who swear worse than a sailor doesn't mean you should ban them   (idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Hero, President Obama, esa, video game industry, Biden  
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2027 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Jan 2013 at 7:41 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-17 07:45:28 AM  
Obvious tag works here.
 
2013-01-17 07:47:35 AM  
This angle is going nowhere, gun nutters.
 
2013-01-17 07:49:38 AM  
Illegal drugs result in more gun deaths than video games. People should be drug tested when making ammunition purchases. Drug testing was effective in Florida in preventing state welfare money from flowing into the drug markets. Drug testing ammunition purchases would be very effective at keeping bullets out of the hands of the drug crazed gang bangers who are shooting up our schools.
 
2013-01-17 07:53:27 AM  
I'm glad the European Space Agency put that to rest!
 
2013-01-17 07:54:19 AM  
It's a request for a research funding. Sure, it's going to come back the same as all the other studies, but let's not all overact to what this is.
 
2013-01-17 07:56:52 AM  

Cozret: It's a request for a research funding. Sure, it's going to come back the same as all the other studies, but let's not all overact to what this is.


shiat, I think research funding would be a good idea. All of the reputable studies that have come out indicate no causal relationship. Short of a complete shift in results (unlikely) or a poorly designed study meant to find something wrong its just going to further indicate no relationship
 
2013-01-17 07:57:44 AM  

Muta: Drug testing was effective in Florida in preventing state welfare money from flowing into the drug markets.


LOL WUT?!?!?!?!?

Didn't Florida abandon that program because they spent tens of millions and found so little welfare based drug use?
 
2013-01-17 07:59:59 AM  
fta: We concur with President Obama's call today for all Americans to do their part, and agree with the report's conclusion that "the entertainment and video game industries have a responsibility to give parents tools and choices about the movies and programs their children watch and the games their children play."

Well, okay then.

i have no problem with the ESA stating the obvious here and making the obligatory pre-emptory argument.

I find violent video games to be more a cathartic release mechanism than any type of goad towards IRL killing sprees.

/Okay, except for Angry Birds which used to make me go off on the occasional mindless slingshot rampage but I have pills for that now.
 
2013-01-17 08:01:32 AM  
Video games cause gun violence. Hollywood causes gun violence. Cop shows on TV causes gun violence. Illegal drugs, legal drugs that make crazy people less crazy, being non-white, PTSD, all sorts of things cause gun violence.

Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.
 
2013-01-17 08:06:24 AM  

Cozret: It's a request for a research funding. Sure, it's going to come back the same as all the other studies, but let's not all overact to what this is.


Yeah, unless someone decides on the outcome beforehand, I'm not worried.
 
2013-01-17 08:06:43 AM  
It would only prompt violent behavior in those who are already delusional and/or can't separate fantasy from reality.
 
2013-01-17 08:07:26 AM  

Karac: Video games cause gun violence. Hollywood causes gun violence. Cop shows on TV causes gun violence. Illegal drugs, legal drugs that make crazy people less crazy, being non-white, PTSD, all sorts of things cause gun violence.

Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.


Your never going to be a guest on the Hannity show with that thinking.
 
2013-01-17 08:08:53 AM  

Muta: Illegal drugs result in more gun deaths than video games. People should be drug tested when making ammunition purchases. Drug testing was effective in Florida in preventing state welfare money from flowing into the drug markets. Drug testing ammunition purchases would be very effective at keeping bullets out of the hands of the drug crazed gang bangers who are shooting up our schools.


effective or expensive? Because the data I've seen shows that it's not at all effective for the cost.
 
2013-01-17 08:09:28 AM  
the report's conclusion that "the entertainment and video game industries have a responsibility to give parents tools and choices about the movies and programs their children watch and the games their children play."

Those tools and choices already exist. Movies have a MPAA rating, while games have an ESRB which goes even further and tells you exactly why that product got that particular rating. And the choices - unless your kid has a job and makes his own money, then he ain't paying for a DVD, video game, or internet connect all by himself.

If you can't figure out that games called 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Modern Warfare' or a movie entitled 'Natural Born Killers' might have just a little bit of gunplay in them, then you are a truly shiatty parent.
 
2013-01-17 08:09:28 AM  
Some of those kids are little bastards, though.
 
2013-01-17 08:14:09 AM  

Muta: I HATE THEM DURN NEGROES


*pats Muta on the head.* We know.
 
2013-01-17 08:17:17 AM  
I owe a debt of gratitude to the little farkers. It got so bad I quit playing. Now the addiction is broken, and I'm back to reading. Much better.
 
2013-01-17 08:19:23 AM  

johnryan51: Karac: Video games cause gun violence. Hollywood causes gun violence. Cop shows on TV causes gun violence. Illegal drugs, legal drugs that make crazy people less crazy, being non-white, PTSD, all sorts of things cause gun violence.

Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.

Your never going to be a guest on the Hannity show with that thinking.


Oh, you'd be surprised. My state senator was on yesterday, and was accused of being on drugs. (You know how us DemocRATs do.)
 
2013-01-17 08:21:30 AM  

Muta: Illegal drugs result in more gun deaths than video games.


As does everything else that causes gun violence. Games do not cause gun violence. At all. They are a fantasy. The vast, overwhelming majority of people are quite fully aware that pressing a button on a game controller or a mouse to pretend shoot a pretend person on a screen is a far cry (maybe I should have made this a hidden violent games troll) from actually shooting an actual person leaving them actually left 4 dead.

I agree with the earlier poster that it's cathartic. Many is the time when I spent an hour or two after a long and frustrating day of work taking out my aggression on a violent game and wanted to go hug puppies afterwards. Mind you, I also drank half a bottle of Buckfast and spent the next two hours cleaning my bathroom instead of the usual getting into fights and throwing bricks at buses, so I am an odd one.

Karac: Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.


Common factor yes, because clearly you can't shoot a nonexistent gun, but I'm still not convinced that the presence of guns causes a greater tendency towards violent behaviour either. For every murderous maniac there are countless people who only use their guns for legal hunting and target practise. There must be a better reason, something cultural that leads some people to consider assault and killing, whether with a gun, another weapon or even unarmed to be acceptable.

I personally think that poverty is a much more siginificant factor. People who grow up believing that the mainstream of society offers them nothing but oppression and a total lack of opportunity are far more likely to reject society as a whole and to commit illegal and antisocial acts to get ahead. Those who believe that things like education, honest, legal work and cooperating with the law will reward them are far more likely to keep their nose clean.

Too many people are frightened and panicked and looking for an easy target to blame instead of taking the time to seek out real, difficult yet rational answers.
 
2013-01-17 08:22:36 AM  
Not related to recent gun violence, but I heartily recommend a strict enforcement of retailers to not sell inappropriate games to kids. To make it extreme, insist retailer say no to clueless parents for all I care buying Call of Duty for their little brats.
 
2013-01-17 08:22:45 AM  
One thing that has been strongly linked to increased crime: leaded gasoline.

Link
 
2013-01-17 08:28:48 AM  
There were times before video games when Sci-Fi Television shows, fantasy novels, comic books, radio specials, novels, penny dreadfuls, plays, and lyric poetry all were considered to engender violence. This has been a common direction to point blame over the years from the real issues, usually poor education and lax identification of dangerous individuals, by politicians with an axe to grind.

Or, as Penny Arcade put it: It takes a special kind of patriot to protect the Second Amendment by killing the First.
 
2013-01-17 08:30:13 AM  

Karac: Video games cause gun violence. Hollywood causes gun violence. Cop shows on TV causes gun violence. Illegal drugs, legal drugs that make crazy people less crazy, being non-white, PTSD, all sorts of things cause gun violence.

Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.


We have not ruled our a virus, gypsy curse, or sleep number beds.
 
2013-01-17 08:31:36 AM  
I used to play a LOT of Unreal Tournament, back in the day, but I never did a HEAD SHOT in real life, let alone a DOUBLE KILL.
 
2013-01-17 08:32:16 AM  

Zasteva: One thing that has been strongly linked to increased crime: leaded gasoline.

Link


Thanks for this article; it was fascinating.
 
2013-01-17 08:34:10 AM  
since the video game lobbying group said it on the internet it must be doubly true,and anything the firearms lobbying group says has to be taken at face value also.

we done here?
 
2013-01-17 08:35:58 AM  
And we go right back into the psychological underpinnings. I've played almost every violent FPS since 1992 when I was 16 years old. I've had a shotgun, shot trap a lot, and had access to a lot of firearms. Never shot a person, an animal, nothing. Don't feel the urge to.

The games haven't made me violent. FPS games have apparently made me a better shot with a shotgun but not any more violent. Of course a stable home life and good parenting helped. I've found most of the kids in these shootings are missing one, if not both, of those.
 
2013-01-17 08:36:29 AM  

Karac: Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.


I don't think anyone disputes the fact that guns are involved in shootings. The question is why does a nation, with ever tightening gun restrictions, still end up with increasingly audacious violence.
We came from a time where firepower was easily available at any hardware store for any customer and it didn't result in strings of school shootings. We didn't have to spend a billion dollars a year to buy the promise of safety from homicidal maniacs.

So the question becomes "what is wrong with us".
Something changed and we need to understand what it is.

I think media plays a big role in this, because video games have the dual effect of reducing crime (by keeping kids home, and overall crime rates are down) but increasing violence (by teaching them irresponsible behavior, which means more maniacs).
I also believe the game industry knows its a concern, because they fronted the ESRB system in an attempt to self regulate and avoid censorship.

The ESA is only shilling for its sponsors by denying all links. Studies have found conflicting results.
No harm is going to come from taking a closer look at the data.
 
2013-01-17 08:36:42 AM  
Obviously most of you guys haven't played XCOM on impossible/iron man.
 
2013-01-17 08:36:59 AM  
Video games are still being used as the latest excuse?
 
2013-01-17 08:42:45 AM  

Alphax: I used to play a LOT of Unreal Tournament, back in the day, but I never did a HEAD SHOT in real life, let alone a DOUBLE KILL.


Sure, but what about a KILLING SPREE! That is not dependent on location or time between kills.
 
2013-01-17 08:43:13 AM  

Kibbler: I owe a debt of gratitude to the little farkers. It got so bad I quit playing. Now the addiction is broken, and I'm back to reading. Much better.


I used to think "damn, they all must be hacking of something." Then at MAGFest (think a Star Trek convention, but instead full of video games) I entered a live Modern Warfare tournament. Everyone was playing on a LAN right in front of me. Same impossible reflexes and reaction time I saw online.

I realized, I'm just old and slow.
 
2013-01-17 08:46:02 AM  

Cythraul: Video games are still being used as the latest excuse?


You don't think people are going to look at various gun control regulations, do you?
 
2013-01-17 08:46:47 AM  
Don't tell Al Bandura.
 
2013-01-17 08:46:57 AM  

FunkyBlue: And we go right back into the psychological underpinnings. I've played almost every violent FPS since 1992 when I was 16 years old. I've had a shotgun, shot trap a lot, and had access to a lot of firearms. Never shot a person, an animal, nothing. Don't feel the urge to.

The games haven't made me violent. FPS games have apparently made me a better shot with a shotgun but not any more violent. Of course a stable home life and good parenting helped. I've found most of the kids in these shootings are missing one, if not both, of those.


Anecdotal evidence is not actually evidence of anything at all. The thing that tells us stuff is statistical evidence of no effect (as seen by declining violent crime rates in virtually all developed countries in the last few decades despite the explosion of video games being played during that time, making any significant link between the two incredibly unlikely).
 
2013-01-17 08:47:01 AM  

JollyMagistrate: There were times before video games when Sci-Fi Television shows, fantasy novels, comic books, radio specials, novels, penny dreadfuls, plays, and lyric poetry all were considered to engender violence. This has been a common direction to point blame over the years from the real issues, usually poor education and lax identification of dangerous individuals, by politicians with an axe to grind.

Or, as Penny Arcade put it: It takes a special kind of patriot to protect the Second Amendment by killing the First.


Dungeons and Dragons made me take to the storm sewers in search of foul and evil creatures to slay, practice magic and worship false Gods. The hard part is keeping the dead bodies covered up so that Geraldo doesn't start investigating again.

Well that and some for reason when ever the police find a hobgoblin or ogre my party has hacked to death with melee weapons, they make him up to look like some homeless dude or missing person. Why would they do that?
 
2013-01-17 08:48:09 AM  
This has always been an ass-backwards argument, just like D&D and heavy metal before it. The person who is going to do something like Newtown already has that beast inside him. The fact that he is drawn to these things in a way more unhealthy than others (who see it for its entertainment value) are is the farking indicator, not the cause. Video games (et al) do not trigger whatever mental imbalance is at the root of it all in that person, but they can (and should) be used as part of the test for that imbalance -- i.e. maybe if you like it too much, you need a closer look under the hood.
 
2013-01-17 08:48:09 AM  
I prefer to murder my hookers with a baseball bat or a screwdriver AFTER I steal back my cash from her in the car that we banged in that I jacked from a random driver.
 
2013-01-17 08:48:48 AM  

Karac: Video games cause gun violence. Hollywood causes gun violence. Cop shows on TV causes gun violence. Illegal drugs, legal drugs that make crazy people less crazy, being non-white, PTSD, all sorts of things cause gun violence.

Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.


Or crazy people.....but they are a common factor in a lot of crimes that don't involve guns too.

We need to have better treatment for crazy.
 
2013-01-17 08:49:59 AM  

way south: Karac: Eventually, people might have to accept the fact that the common factor in all of those .... is guns.

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that guns are involved in shootings. The question is why does a nation, with ever tightening gun restrictions, still end up with increasingly audacious violence.
We came from a time where firepower was easily available at any hardware store for any customer and it didn't result in strings of school shootings. We didn't have to spend a billion dollars a year to buy the promise of safety from homicidal maniacs.

So the question becomes "what is wrong with us".
Something changed and we need to understand what it is.

I think media plays a big role in this, because video games have the dual effect of reducing crime (by keeping kids home, and overall crime rates are down) but increasing violence (by teaching them irresponsible behavior, which means more maniacs).
I also believe the game industry knows its a concern, because they fronted the ESRB system in an attempt to self regulate and avoid censorship.

The ESA is only shilling for its sponsors by denying all links. Studies have found conflicting results.
No harm is going to come from taking a closer look at the data.


Actually, no. There is harm in further study, because we have all of the data we need.

How many kids go off and stab their best friend after reading "Julius Caesar?" (Or gasp, seeing the show performed live?) How many boys who played cowboys and indians as children grew up to be genocidal killers? Or for that matter, playing cops and robbers became either cops or robbers?

How is playing games any different than role playing? Oh wait, IT'S NOT.

Humans have a tremendous capacity for imagination. That is what separates us from the animals. Calling that exercise in imagination "harmful" or "damaging" sickens me. It sickens me to the core.
 
2013-01-17 08:50:15 AM  

Masso: Not related to recent gun violence, but I heartily recommend a strict enforcement of retailers to not sell inappropriate games to kids. To make it extreme, insist retailer say no to clueless parents for all I care buying Call of Duty for their little brats.


Who decides what's inappropriate? Would you support similar legislation for books, movies or music? The Odyssey contains a lot of violent, should it be rated "M"; should kids not be able to buy a copy?
 
2013-01-17 08:50:29 AM  

JollyMagistrate: Or, as Penny Arcade put it: It takes a special kind of patriot to protect the Second Amendment by killing the First.


Makes me glad again for Brown v EMA.
 
2013-01-17 08:51:26 AM  

bulldg4life: Cythraul: Video games are still being used as the latest excuse?

You don't think people are going to look at various gun control regulations, do you?


I would think that people would stop using entertainment media as a convenient target to blame. It's getting a bit old. From the evils of 'rock and roll' in the 50's and 60's, to the mythical satanic cults inspired by 80's metal, the horrors of table-top role playing games, to video games in the 90's to today. I see a pattern here.

Interesting that I don't remember anyone pointing a finger at movies, though.
 
2013-01-17 08:54:12 AM  

HugsAndPuppies: This has always been an ass-backwards argument, just like D&D and heavy metal before it. The person who is going to do something like Newtown already has that beast inside him. The fact that he is drawn to these things in a way more unhealthy than others (who see it for its entertainment value) are is the farking indicator, not the cause. Video games (et al) do not trigger whatever mental imbalance is at the root of it all in that person, but they can (and should) be used as part of the test for that imbalance -- i.e. maybe if you like it too much, you need a closer look under the hood.


That brings something to mind. What about the eras before the mass entertainment industry? Serial killers and homicidal psychos have been around for a LONG time. The psychology of the psychological unstable and homicidal is something that's been documented as far back as the late 1800's.

There weren't any video games or heavy metal music back then.
 
2013-01-17 08:54:13 AM  

Cythraul: bulldg4life: Cythraul: Video games are still being used as the latest excuse?

You don't think people are going to look at various gun control regulations, do you?

I would think that people would stop using entertainment media as a convenient target to blame. It's getting a bit old. From the evils of 'rock and roll' in the 50's and 60's, to the mythical satanic cults inspired by 80's metal, the horrors of table-top role playing games, to video games in the 90's to today. I see a pattern here.

Interesting that I don't remember anyone pointing a finger at movies, though.


Don't forget comic books. They really went nuts over them back in the day.
 
2013-01-17 08:58:41 AM  
I don't even like shooters very much (prefer my Mario and Zelda), but I think the attempt to pin the blame on violent video games is such a red herring.

You know who else plays a shiat-ton of violent video games? Japan. South Korea. Australia. Canada. Western Europe. None of those places have remotely the problem with gun violence that the US has. All of them have sensible gun control measures in place.

The major factor in America's epidemic gun violence is the ready availability of guns, full stop. And the most effective solution is gun control, as has been proven in country after country. Pinning it on video games is such a feeble attempt to deflect blame for the real (and bleedingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) problem.
 
2013-01-17 09:00:16 AM  
So you're saying we could give these people an aneurysm if we adapted a Table Top version of Ed Brubaker's Fatale into a a turned based FPS game with a rock and roll soundtrack?

Actually that game sounds farking great.
 
2013-01-17 09:00:36 AM  

Cythraul: HugsAndPuppies: This has always been an ass-backwards argument, just like D&D and heavy metal before it. The person who is going to do something like Newtown already has that beast inside him. The fact that he is drawn to these things in a way more unhealthy than others (who see it for its entertainment value) are is the farking indicator, not the cause. Video games (et al) do not trigger whatever mental imbalance is at the root of it all in that person, but they can (and should) be used as part of the test for that imbalance -- i.e. maybe if you like it too much, you need a closer look under the hood.

That brings something to mind. What about the eras before the mass entertainment industry? Serial killers and homicidal psychos have been around for a LONG time. The psychology of the psychological unstable and homicidal is something that's been documented as far back as the late 1800's.

There weren't any video games or heavy metal music back then.


What were the equivalents back then? Every generation has its evils, so there had to be something they would blame for criminal/anti-social behavior. This sure as hell ain't new.
 
2013-01-17 09:01:28 AM  
Or kill them. . .
 
2013-01-17 09:03:10 AM  

HugsAndPuppies: Cythraul: HugsAndPuppies: This has always been an ass-backwards argument, just like D&D and heavy metal before it. The person who is going to do something like Newtown already has that beast inside him. The fact that he is drawn to these things in a way more unhealthy than others (who see it for its entertainment value) are is the farking indicator, not the cause. Video games (et al) do not trigger whatever mental imbalance is at the root of it all in that person, but they can (and should) be used as part of the test for that imbalance -- i.e. maybe if you like it too much, you need a closer look under the hood.

That brings something to mind. What about the eras before the mass entertainment industry? Serial killers and homicidal psychos have been around for a LONG time. The psychology of the psychological unstable and homicidal is something that's been documented as far back as the late 1800's.

There weren't any video games or heavy metal music back then.

What were the equivalents back then? Every generation has its evils, so there had to be something they would blame for criminal/anti-social behavior. This sure as hell ain't new.


Opium? Too much Absinthe?
 
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