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(The New York Times)   Microsoft just can't catch a break. Slate sales in the 4th quarter: 1 million. iPad sales in its first 3 days: 3 million   (bits.blogs.nytimes.com) divider line 118
    More: Obvious, iPads, Microsoft, IHS iSuppli, Microsoft Surface, slates  
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1417 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-16 11:52:52 AM
The difference between the Surface RT and the iPad:

Price - same
Weight - same
Size - almost identical
Cameras - almost identical
Battery life - same

Where they differ is when it comes to the applications. The iPad has loads of games, along with thousands of fart apps - the Surface comes with the standard applications (Netflix, banking apps, evernote, etc) a full blown version of Office 2013 and an excellent keyboard + trackpad. Office alone is a huge benefit - the proper keyboard seals the deal.

/Has an iPad 2 and Surface RT sitting next to me
//likes the RT better
 
2013-01-16 12:02:20 PM
It's almost as if there's some benefit to having the first of a particular product type. Some sort of advantage for moving first, or being the first mover, so to speak.
 
2013-01-16 12:05:43 PM

nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."


Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.
 
2013-01-16 12:06:53 PM

cannibalparrot: It's almost as if there's some benefit to having the first of a particular product type. Some sort of advantage for moving first, or being the first mover, so to speak.


The iPad wasn't the first tablet.
The iPhone wasn't the first smartphone.
The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player.

Try again.
 
2013-01-16 12:09:31 PM

Mercutio74:

To be fair, anyone I know who uses an iPad for more than Angry Birds generally has a little stand for the unit and a keyboard to go with it.


You don't know many people, do you?
 
2013-01-16 12:09:37 PM

fatbear: nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."

Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.


Combined with the fact that both of those had a lot to do with the fact that they ruled the OS for that platform. Microsoft rules the kingdom of PCLand, but they lost their collective shiat when people started moving.
 
2013-01-16 12:13:12 PM

cannibalparrot: It's almost as if there's some benefit to having the first of a particular product type. Some sort of advantage for moving first, or being the first mover, so to speak.


FMA?? FML!!!
 
2013-01-16 12:16:39 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Maybe if their ads showed what they could do better than an iPad instead of showing dancing hipsters and angry school girls people might buy them. The 'click' sound made when a keyboard is attached is not very enticing to me as a reason to buy something.

Assuming they can do something better than an iPad.


Based on the product specs, it seems like its meant for businesses where people want to run the full version of office on a tablet, and companies rather buy employees a tablet than a laptop.

But then of course, the marketing is all about trying to convince you that it's as cool as the iPad.
 
2013-01-16 12:16:55 PM

fatbear: cannibalparrot: It's almost as if there's some benefit to having the first of a particular product type. Some sort of advantage for moving first, or being the first mover, so to speak.

The iPad wasn't the first tablet.
The iPhone wasn't the first smartphone.
The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player.

Try again.


Were there any successful tablets in non-niche markets before the iPad?
 
2013-01-16 12:19:50 PM

Mercutio74: To be fair, anyone I know who uses an iPad for more than Angry Birds generally has a little stand for the unit and a keyboard to go with it.


I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

My company has begun limiting the number of laptops and blackberries it gives out to employees; instead people are getting an iPad w/3G and a bluetooth keyboard. It's a lot cheaper than the laptop + blackberry combination (and people were hardly making calls on their blackberries -- they just used it for e-mail).
 
2013-01-16 12:19:51 PM

nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."


Zune is the iPod killer.
 
2013-01-16 12:21:40 PM
There's a Surface device in my office right now. I like it just fine as a business tool. I do wish it had a higher-resolution screen (I also have a Nexus 10 sitting here), but I had no problem at all using one in place of my laptop, albeit not as quickly and with a cramped keyboard. It doesn't have some of the goofy apps that are on my Android tablets and I'm not really happy with IE as the web browser, but as a tool for actually doing work it's great.

I do have to wonder if the goal for these things isn't to push Apple out of corporate tablet deployments. These guys really do just interoperate like I expected they would. I haven't really investigated management options for them, but I suspect they exist in Microsoft's world in a way that they don't in Apple's.
 
2013-01-16 12:23:03 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: They may get what they want.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020343690457715484090681 6 210.html

You'll have to copy and paste. Fark won't link the WSJ article.


What's that all about? Some copyright issues with the Journal?
 
2013-01-16 12:23:15 PM

fatbear: nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."

Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.


Xbox, .NET MS isn't completely dead yet
 
2013-01-16 12:24:36 PM

MrSteve007: The difference between the Surface RT and the iPad:

Price - same
Weight - same
Size - almost identical
Cameras - almost identical
Battery life - same

Where they differ is when it comes to the applications. The iPad has loads of games, along with thousands of fart apps - the Surface comes with the standard applications (Netflix, banking apps, evernote, etc) a full blown version of Office 2013 and an excellent keyboard + trackpad. Office alone is a huge benefit - the proper keyboard seals the deal.

/Has an iPad 2 and Surface RT sitting next to me
//likes the RT better


i48.tinypic.com

Does not look like Angry Birds or fart app.

Just because you have not found a good use for an iPad, does not mean that others have not figured out how to do useful things with it.
 
2013-01-16 12:26:17 PM
Maybe you should back of the hype machine a little and think about what the fark you're producing instead of playing catch-up and thinking advertising is the wave of the future.

I'm just giving advice, my opinion is basically useless
 
2013-01-16 12:27:50 PM

MrSteve007: The difference between the Surface RT and the iPad:

Price - same
Weight - same
Size - almost identical
Cameras - almost identical
Battery life - same

Where they differ is when it comes to the applications. The iPad has loads of games, along with thousands of fart apps - the Surface comes with the standard applications (Netflix, banking apps, evernote, etc) a full blown version of Office 2013 and an excellent keyboard + trackpad. Office alone is a huge benefit - the proper keyboard seals the deal.

/Has an iPad 2 and Surface RT sitting next to me
//likes the RT better


i301.photobucket.com

/fanboi detected.
 
2013-01-16 12:31:16 PM

fatbear: nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."

Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.


Microsoft will never compete with Sony and Nintendo in the video game console market?

Microsoft will never beat RIM at corporate push email to mobile devices?
 
2013-01-16 12:36:16 PM

Bacontastesgood: Microsoft is so farking stupid. They spent a bajillion dollars making ink work, and when the ipad came out they crapped their pants and ran (well, waddled quickly) to touch. Now they have a hybrid Frankenstein system, many of which don't do ink or do it poorly. Their best Office product, OneNote, they make a crap version of for Android and iOS, and STILL refuse to promote on their own platform. If I were a programmer on the OneNote team I'd probably have killed myself by now. People see a weak app on ipads like "Paper" and are blown away, and they see the crippled horrid OneNote and go ugh.


This.

In 2003 I had a Tablet PC with the same weight/dimensions as a laptop but with pen input and incredible mobility. The handwriting recognition and changes to the OS to seamlessly navigate/create content in any application were incredible.
 
2013-01-16 12:38:15 PM
As usual, Microsoft is late to the party and hoping that their dominance on the desktop can force their way into the market. Unfortunately, there's very little caryover for them. I say unfortunately because most of the mutual funds in my retirement account are carrying about 3% Microsoft stock.

What they really need to do is release a 7" tablet and price it $10 less then the Nexus 7. Microsoft has always been the preferred OS for commodity hardware. Somehow, Google has done what was once thought impossible and kicked them out of that space in a very short period of time.
 
2013-01-16 12:42:54 PM
If the iPad sells 15 million units a month because everyone is an idiot and only plays Angry Birds and fart apps, you'd best be trying to copy that instead of coming up with a tablet that has a keyboard, a usb slot, and Office. Because there are not enough smart people who want to use Office on a tablet with a shiatty keyboard and no mouse.
 
2013-01-16 12:50:30 PM

nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up"


It's not like people switched to IE because they liked it better. Microsoft installed it it on everyone's computer and broke Netscape. It was kind of a big in Europe where they have laws against such things.
 
2013-01-16 12:54:10 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Does not look like Angry Birds or fart app.

Just because you have not found a good use for an iPad, does not mean that others have not figured out how to do useful things with it.


www.nclosures.com

www.mimsoftware.com

images.autodesk.com

As far as I know, none of these tasks can be accomplished on a Surface RT because the apps aren't available yet, while the iPad is FDA approved for medical imaging.

What people don't get in these threads is that the iPad isn't intended to replace your laptop, it is supposed to be a digital clipboard so you can easily deal with documents and data entry while not at a desk. The Surface RT fails because it is not powerful enough or compatible enough with existing apps to be a laptop replacement, and the device is awkward to use in portrait mode due to the 16:9 screen and without a keyboard, especially for Office docs, so it doesn't make a good digital clipboard either. Having a non-retina display is also a big minus when it comes to medical imaging, viewing CAD drawings, showing real estate properties, displaying portfolios, or any other tasks that are dependent on having a high resolution screen with good color reproduction.
 
2013-01-16 12:58:56 PM

fatbear: Mercutio74:

To be fair, anyone I know who uses an iPad for more than Angry Birds generally has a little stand for the unit and a keyboard to go with it.

You don't know many people, do you?


Well, most people I do know that need some kind of computing device tend to need one that isn't primarily designed for entertainment, email and surfing the internet.
 
2013-01-16 12:59:32 PM

Mad_Radhu: The Surface RT fails because it is not powerful enough or compatible enough with existing apps to be a laptop replacement, and because the device is awkward to use in portrait mode due to the 16:9 screen, so it doesn't make a good digital clipboard, either. Editing Office docs without a keyboard is also awkward due to it going to desktop mode in Office 2013, which works against the digital clipboard use case.


Edited for clarity.
 
2013-01-16 01:00:46 PM
Apple vs. Microsoft marketing:

When you walk into an Apple store, the sales reps are actually using the iPhone to place your order and process your transaction. Holy crap that makes an impression - it's not just a toy but can be used for REAL business.

I tried a Windows8/Surface demo kiosk in an airport before Christmas and the damn thing didn't work at all - totally bugged/broken got stuck on the "news" tile and no way back to the home screen. Customer service rep was absent and when he arrived had no idea how to fix it. Great job.
 
2013-01-16 01:09:26 PM

MrSteve007: The difference between the Surface RT and the iPad:

Price - same
Weight - same
Size - almost identical
Cameras - almost identical
Battery life - same

Where they differ is when it comes to the applications. The iPad has loads of games, along with thousands of fart apps - the Surface comes with the standard applications (Netflix, banking apps, evernote, etc) a full blown version of Office 2013 and an excellent keyboard + trackpad. Office alone is a huge benefit - the proper keyboard seals the deal.

/Has an iPad 2 and Surface RT sitting next to me
//likes the RT better


No mention of crappy screen - arguably the most important part of a tablet.

Also ignored - the fact that 99.999% of the population isn't interested in anything from Microsoft that they don't HAVE to buy.
 
2013-01-16 01:13:23 PM
The Apple comparison isn't really apt, since we're talking about Apple fourth-generation product against Microsoft's first-generation product. But still, the weak sales are not a good sign for MS.

/and they deserve it
//Win8/WinRT's UI is a damn trainwreck
 
2013-01-16 01:15:11 PM

Mercutio74: Well, most people I do know that need some kind of computing device tend to need one that isn't primarily designed for entertainment, email and surfing the internet.


Again, you are missing the big business use cases for an iPad. One big one is giving them to field workers for data entry, surveys, and other tasks. For example, I was at Disneyland last week and they had a small army of workers surveying guests as they were exiting the park, and each of those workers had 3G-enabled iPads in ruggedized cases that were using them to fill out digital forms and send them to a central database instantly. Sure it costs them a bit of cash to buy the iPads, but it allowed them to get survey information faster and more accurately that paper forms, and you didn't have to hire staff to do data entry on the forms, so in the end you are saving money. I'm also sure that a lot of the Obama 2012 election canvassing was being done via iPad apps, and the 2020 Census will probably also be running on iPads or similar devices. There is nothing in those tasks that would have been accomplished faster or better with a more functional device with USB ports and a full version of Office. If anything, having to drop into a desktop UI for tasks like basic Office document editing is going to slow you down if you aren't in a place where you can use the keyboard cover on a Surface, especially since the desktop onscreen keyboard is so crappy compared to the Metro version (for example you have to manually hide and unhide it, rather than it intelligently hiding itself when you are not entering text like in the Metro UI or on an iPad)
 
2013-01-16 01:17:58 PM

madgonad: Also ignored - the fact that 99.999% of the population isn't interested in anything from Microsoft that they don't HAVE to buy.


Yep out of 7 billion people on Earth - over a billion use a licensed version of Windows. MS sells roughly 20-30 million copies a month. 9 out of 10 computer users still use some form of Windows. That certainly sounds like a product that people don't want to use.

Yet people cream themselves that Apple has sold 100 million iPads over 3 years.
 
2013-01-16 01:18:48 PM

cannibalparrot: fatbear: cannibalparrot: It's almost as if there's some benefit to having the first of a particular product type. Some sort of advantage for moving first, or being the first mover, so to speak.

The iPad wasn't the first tablet.
The iPhone wasn't the first smartphone.
The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player.

Try again.

Were there any successful tablets in non-niche markets before the iPad?


You mean globally dominant? No, that's the point. Others tried, Apple got it right. First most successful.
 
2013-01-16 01:20:58 PM

andhravodu: fatbear: nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."

Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.

Xbox, .NET MS isn't completely dead yet


I never said they were dead, but they haven't introduced a product that takes over an existing market in over a decade. They do operating systems and business software well. Everything else...not so much.
 
2013-01-16 01:22:38 PM

Mad_Radhu: fatbear: nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."

Do you have an example that's less than 15 years old? MS isn't the nimble company it used to be.

Microsoft will never compete with Sony and Nintendo in the video game console market?

Microsoft will never beat RIM at corporate push email to mobile devices?


OK, 10 years. The xBox is 11 years old now.

And "corporate push" was just leveraging an existing app (Exchange server) not introducing a new one and capturing a market.
 
2013-01-16 01:24:26 PM

Mercutio74: fatbear: Mercutio74:

To be fair, anyone I know who uses an iPad for more than Angry Birds generally has a little stand for the unit and a keyboard to go with it.

You don't know many people, do you?

Well, most people I do know that need some kind of computing device tend to need one that isn't primarily designed for entertainment, email and surfing the internet.


Yeah, I stand by my statement. "Computing device" tablet.

I use a tablet when I need a tablet, and it does a shiatload more than the 3 tasks you listed. I use a desktop when I need a "computing device."
 
2013-01-16 01:28:07 PM

stuhayes2010: Surely they have a handsome engineer who worked on the product.


Bwahahahahaha
 
2013-01-16 01:50:40 PM
Cynical hypothesis: Tablets are nearly useless pieces of hardware that don't fill a void for the majority of people if you have both a smart phone and a desktop/laptop (which a great many people already have). It has neither the portability nor use of a phone, and none of the power or freedom (customization) of a real computer. Therefore, most people who buy one of these things will either be people who want to show off the fact that they have this new, rare, expensive thing (ie, tech geeks or people who loves gadgets for example), or they are people who want to get something because of the brand.

I propose that the first of these two groups already has a tablet and sees little need to get another one, and the second of these two groups will never buy something that doesn't come from the right brand anyways.

I only say 'most' people. I can see a legitimate use for these things at places like trade shows where someone wants to show you something on a portable screen. There will also probably be people who don't have a smart phone or a laptop and buy one as a replacement for one or the other. There's also brand momentum: people who buy things because other people have bought things, and if lots of other people bought that thing, it's gotta be great, right (wii, britney spears CDs, etc)?

Anyways, the point is, I seriously doubt any competitor to Apple will be able to match Apple's numbers in the tablet game, even if it offers more features at a cheaper price. The fact that the Surface doesn't do either of those things certainly doesn't help its chances.
 
2013-01-16 01:51:22 PM

cefm: When you walk into an Apple store, the sales reps are actually using the iPhone to place your order and process your transaction. Holy crap that makes an impression - it's not just a toy but can be used for REAL business.


Last time I was in a Microsoft store, I talked to a guy who seemed to have pretty good up close and personal knowledge of data integration features across multiple hardware platforms and business software initiatives. I asked him a stumper question. He told me he'd have someone get back to me. Sure enough, I got an email from somebody with a Microsoft.com email address about it a couple days later.

I'm glad Apple can make a point of sale system work and all but no matter how you slice it, Microsoft covers way, WAY more ground in the real work department.
 
2013-01-16 01:52:54 PM
One thing to keep in mind is iOS was already polished for touch controls. With the iPad they just upscaled the iPhone/iPod touch and *boom* already had a strong tablet ecosystem. Same with Android for the most part. Win 8 RT seems like quite a lot of new work and it brings very little (does it support WinPhone 7 stuff?) with it. I'm not a Surface fan, but I can appreciate that they're trying to fight an uphill battle with it. 1m sales with support for nothing is actually pretty decent IMHO.
 
2013-01-16 02:00:03 PM

styckx: moothemagiccow: styckx: When did moving 1 million pieces of product in a quarter become a bad thing?

Yeah I was reading this thing about how nintendo failed because it only shipped 400,000 new wiis.

You must browse the IGN boards where 80% of the user base is a card carding analyst of the NYC financial district.


Basically any game forum or blog. It's bizarre how hiveminded people can be.
 
2013-01-16 02:02:03 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Does not look like Angry Birds or fart app.

Just because you have not found a good use for an iPad, does not mean that others have not figured out how to do useful things with it.


Any tablet can read a PDF, even those $50 ones at walgreens
 
2013-01-16 02:08:31 PM
Looks like Xbox Live Arcade games are now being ported to Windows 8 & Surface RT - including cross platform multiplayer support. Link

That's a pretty nice bump to the quality of apps available on RT - and shows why MS is unifying their UI across all of their consumer platforms.
 
2013-01-16 02:08:32 PM

styckx: When did moving 1 million pieces of product in a quarter become a bad thing?


When it was projected they would be moving 2 million pieces in the same quarter.
 
2013-01-16 02:11:22 PM

moothemagiccow: styckx: When did moving 1 million pieces of product in a quarter become a bad thing?

Yeah I was reading this thing about how nintendo failed because it only shipped 400,000 new wiis.


If that's total and counting Japan, that is sort of lack-luster by Nintendo standards; then again, the Wii set the bar really really high.

/One of the 12 Vita owners
 
2013-01-16 03:16:11 PM

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: With more agressive pricing, Microsoft could actually make a go of this thing. It's not like they couldn't afford to throw around a few billion to buy market share.


This
 
2013-01-16 05:00:34 PM

nmemkha: "IE will NEVER catch up with Netscape. They have the browser market locked up."

"WordPerfect is the de-facto standard. This Word program is trash!"
"Excel can never complete with Lotus 1-2-3. WTF is 'Windows'?"

"Microsoft is foolish to think they can ever catch up to Apple in the tablet space."



Never say never, but....

It's not gonna happen for a decade or more (if ever). Apple is brand. Not a technology company. Owning an ipad is more about saying "I own an ipad" than it is about anything the ipad can do or the tech specs.
 
2013-01-16 05:16:46 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: TheGreatGazoo: Maybe if their ads showed what they could do better than an iPad instead of showing dancing hipsters and angry school girls



They're even pissed off using regular computers.


So much this. Advertising these days...sigh.
 
2013-01-16 05:39:52 PM

KFBR392: Owning an ipad is more about saying "I own an ipad" than it is about anything the ipad can do or the tech specs.


I'm going to guess you have no real use for a tablet. Most of the iPad owners truly couldn't give a fark about Apple OR the tech specs - it's about what they can *do* with the tablet.
 
2013-01-16 06:20:56 PM

fatbear: KFBR392: Owning an ipad is more about saying "I own an ipad" than it is about anything the ipad can do or the tech specs.

I'm going to guess you have no real use for a tablet. Most of the iPad owners truly couldn't give a fark about Apple OR the tech specs - it's about what they can *do* with the tablet.


The same tasks as everything else on the market, but while having something cool and newfangled? Tablet's have got some niche applications, but c'mon now don't be intentionally dense about the reality of the consumer market.
 
2013-01-16 07:11:54 PM
I'm jn

ProfessorOhki: fatbear: KFBR392: Owning an ipad is more about saying "I own an ipad" than it is about anything the ipad can do or the tech specs.

I'm going to guess you have no real use for a tablet. Most of the iPad owners truly couldn't give a fark about Apple OR the tech specs - it's about what they can *do* with the tablet.

The same tasks as everything else on the market, but while having something cool and newfangled? Tablet's have got some niche applications, but c'mon now don't be intentionally dense about the reality of the consumer market.


In a side-by-side comparison multiple tablets doing several tasks I needed to accomplish, the iPad came out faster, more usable, and more stable. In addition, I like the particular piece of software that's written for my most critical task, and it's iPad only - the Android competition is ok but not as good.

It's simple. I use what works best for me. I suspect most others do the same. I don't give a fark what tech I use as long as it gets the job done better than any reasonable alternative.
 
2013-01-16 07:14:49 PM
If I was going to buy a Windows-based tablet with a keyboard, I'd buy a Yoga.

Outside of price, there must be some advantage to the Surface. I just don't know what it is.
 
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