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(Some Guy)   Neoconservatives: "Hagel is an anti-semite." Israelis: "STFU, professor dickweed. Hagel is totes cool"   (lobelog.com) divider line 54
    More: Cool, Hagel, STFU, Israel-Palestine, neocons, Shin Bet, Benjamin Netanyahu, United States Secretary of Defense, peace activists  
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1090 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Jan 2013 at 8:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-15 08:46:04 AM
I thought the headlines here were suppose to be funny.
 
2013-01-15 08:48:33 AM

Frank N Stein: I thought the headlines here were suppose to be funny.


I thought the comments were supposed to be funny.
 
2013-01-15 08:50:09 AM
I thought it smelled bad on the outside.
 
2013-01-15 08:54:34 AM
Remember when Bill Kristol thought Hagel should be Dubya's VP?
 
2013-01-15 08:54:57 AM
i.imgur.com
Ricky Bobby: [after Reese offers to help him go fast again] Fine. I'll do it. But I ain't callin' you Daddy.
Reese Bobby: Well, what are you gonna call me then?
[Cuts to Ricky and Reese standing by Reese's car]
Ricky Bobby: All right, Professor Dickweed, what's the plan?
 
2013-01-15 08:55:33 AM

kronicfeld: Remember when Bill Kristol thought Hagel should be Dubya's VP?


When was that?
 
2013-01-15 08:55:59 AM
I thought when the Jewish RightWing calls everyone who doesn't agree with everything they say, an Anti-Semite,that it's supposed to be not funny.

Paging Elliot Abrams!
 
2013-01-15 08:58:53 AM

people: kronicfeld: Remember when Bill Kristol thought Hagel should be Dubya's VP?

When was that?


Had to look it up.

I loled.
 
2013-01-15 09:15:22 AM
Much like the Constitution, neoconservatives are rabid supporters of what they believe Israel to be.  They would be shocked to learn that their neoconservative paradise is actually a modern, civilized nation with *gasp* socialized medicine and universal coverage.
 
2013-01-15 09:22:15 AM

DrD'isInfotainment: I thought when the Jewish RightWing calls everyone who doesn't agree with everything they say, an Anti-Semite,that it's supposed to be not funny.

Paging Elliot Abrams!


It's almost as though the American right (and AIPAC) can be at odds with actual Israelis' and the actual Israeli government's positions without causing the fabric of the universe to rend itself asunder.

How odd.

// so the Israeli government is anti-Semitic?
 
2013-01-15 09:28:57 AM

Dr Dreidel: // so the Israeli government is anti-Semitic?


Sabras have more status. US Jews cant call them self-hating.
 
2013-01-15 10:21:31 AM
It's funny to me how Israeli moderates are less "If you say a bad word about Isreal you are racist!" than American Neocons.

/if they only could be so patriotic about the U.S.
 
2013-01-15 10:23:28 AM
Unfortunately, I'm not sure our neocons care at all what Israelis think.
 
2013-01-15 10:29:50 AM

people: Sabras have more status.


www.stretchingabuckblog.com
I concur.
 
2013-01-15 10:54:14 AM

kronicfeld: people: Sabras have more status.

[www.stretchingabuckblog.com image 150x150]
I concur.


Hey now. That stuff is no where near as good as hummus made at home. The price is the final insult.
 
2013-01-15 10:56:06 AM

imontheinternet: They would be shocked to learn that their neoconservative paradise is actually a modern, civilized nation with *gasp* socialized medicine and universal coverage.



The neoconservatives don't generally have reactionary positions on social issues. Remember, their ideological ancestors were moderate liberals who opposed the Democrats' increasing anti-war bent in the 60's and 70's who latched on to Reagan as a result of his bluster.

They don't care about socialism. They just care about bombing brown folks to make the world safe for Israel Democracy.

"Movement" conservatives are the ones obsessed with Obamacare.
 
2013-01-15 11:22:41 AM

people: kronicfeld: people: Sabras have more status.

[www.stretchingabuckblog.com image 150x150]
I concur.

Hey now. That stuff is no where near as good as hummus made at home. The price is the final insult.


that's cause at home you use real olive oil. I also like to roast the chickpeas a bit, adds some extra flavor

//also it's pronounced closer to who-moose then hum-us, one is a food the other is a terrorist org
 
2013-01-15 11:53:51 AM

zedster: that's cause at home you use real olive oil. I also like to roast the chickpeas a bit, adds some extra flavor

//also it's pronounced closer to who-moose then hum-us, one is a food the other is a terrorist org


I know how (some) Arabs pronounce it. Do (you?) Israelis put a the article in front of it like the Al in الحمص? (Al hoomus)?
 
2013-01-15 11:59:14 AM

people: zedster: that's cause at home you use real olive oil. I also like to roast the chickpeas a bit, adds some extra flavor

//also it's pronounced closer to who-moose then hum-us, one is a food the other is a terrorist org

I know how (some) Arabs pronounce it. Do (you?) Israelis put a the article in front of it like the Al in الحمص? (Al hoomus)?


No, it's humus.

And the "h" is the throat-clearing "h," not the standard huffing-sound "h" -- like how the first "h" in Hanuka is sometimes written in English as "ch" to signify the other other type of "h."

חמוס (right to left)
 
2013-01-15 12:05:36 PM

bostonguy: No, it's humus.

And the "h" is the throat-clearing "h," not the standard huffing-sound "h" -- like how the first "h" in Hanuka is sometimes written in English as "ch" to signify the other other type of "h."

חמוס (right to left)


Thanks! What about the "U" sounds? Vowels with audio..
 
2013-01-15 12:10:30 PM

people: bostonguy: No, it's humus.

And the "h" is the throat-clearing "h," not the standard huffing-sound "h" -- like how the first "h" in Hanuka is sometimes written in English as "ch" to signify the other other type of "h."

חמוס (right to left)

Thanks! What about the "U" sounds? Vowels with audio..


Both are the "oo" sound - like "who-moose", only hawk up some lung butter with the "H+first vowel" part.

// actually, if you speak the more Arabic-sounding Hebrew, it'll be a bit less throat-clearing and a bit more of the hollow-'H' sound made with the back of the throat
 
2013-01-15 12:13:35 PM

Dr Dreidel: // actually, if you speak the more Arabic-sounding Hebrew, it'll be a bit less throat-clearing and a bit more of the hollow-'H' sound made with the back of the throat


Thats interesting.

Now, is the more Arabic sounding Hebrew limited to Palestinians, or do the Sephardis get in that mix?
 
2013-01-15 12:21:00 PM

people: I know how (some) Arabs pronounce it. Do (you?) Israelis put a the article in front of it like the Al in الحمص? (Al hoomus)?


EL means "the" in Arabic

for example El bayit in Arabic is "the house"

however, El in Hebrew means god.

Thus Michael (Mich-ha-el in hebrew) is Mi (who) ha (the) el (god) - who is like god
Or Beth El, a common synagogue name is House of god
Note:In Hebrew there is no present tense form of be (is)

In Hebrew the word for "the" is the prefix ha
ex:ha-bayit would be "the house"

According to wiki it may have originally been hal in both and Hebrew dropped the L while Arabic dropped the H

So it either it would be Ha-humus or if addressed in the Arabic way it would becomes God's humus

//that concludes this fun linguistic detour
 
2013-01-15 12:26:17 PM

people: Dr Dreidel: // actually, if you speak the more Arabic-sounding Hebrew, it'll be a bit less throat-clearing and a bit more of the hollow-'H' sound made with the back of the throat

Thats interesting.

Now, is the more Arabic sounding Hebrew limited to Palestinians, or do the Sephardis get in that mix?


I've heard it come from everywhere - older Israelis (technically "Palestinians" themselves if'n you want to get pedantic), Hebrew-speaking Arabs and I think some standard-issue Israelis as well.

I don't know how to put this delicately, but I tend to hear it more from older and lower-class people (those from lower-economic classes, not that the people are low class) - min-wage workers, laborers, cab drivers (who aren't that low-rent, but not Rhodes scholars certainly) and not from the hoity-toity types. Just an observation, not a judgement - if I can understand the words coming out of their mouths, we're good - and I'm fine with being wrong about that assessment.

// I think it might also just be how Arabs speak Hebrew - I'm admittedly rather thin on having met many, but there are some who speak the "highfalutin'"-sounding Hebrew I'm more used to
// in which case my assessment is totally wrong
 
2013-01-15 12:28:48 PM

zedster: however, El in Hebrew means god.


"Aleph-lamed" means "god" (singular form of "elohim", another name for/synonym of "god").
"Ayin-lamed" means "to" (as in "I will go to the store").

Both spell "el".
 
2013-01-15 12:30:39 PM

zedster: EL means "the" in Arabic

for example El bayit in Arabic is "the house"

however, El in Hebrew means god.


Thanks. I know what "the house" is in Arabic. It should be "Al" Since thats an alif. I do not know if English likes the alif to be "e." I don't think so.

zedster: Thus Michael (Mich-ha-el in hebrew) is Mi (who) ha (the) el (god) - who is like god
Or Beth El, a common synagogue name is House of god
Note:In Hebrew there is no present tense form of be (is)

In Hebrew the word for "the" is the prefix ha
ex:ha-bayit would be "the house"

According to wiki it may have originally been hal in both and Hebrew dropped the L while Arabic dropped the H

So it either it would be Ha-humus or if addressed in the Arabic way it would becomes God's humus


Thats interesting.
 
2013-01-15 12:35:33 PM

Dr Dreidel: I don't know how to put this delicately, but I tend to hear it more from older and lower-class people (those from lower-economic classes, not that the people are low class) - min-wage workers, laborers, cab drivers (who aren't that low-rent, but not Rhodes scholars certainly) and not from the hoity-toity types. Just an observation, not a judgement - if I can understand the words coming out of their mouths, we're good - and I'm fine with being wrong about that assessment.


There is a class issue between Ashkenaz, Shephardis, and Mizrahi Jews, yeah? I've seen this before. Ashkenazis are at the top of the heap, correct?

Dr Dreidel: // I think it might also just be how Arabs speak Hebrew - I'm admittedly rather thin on having met many, but there are some who speak the "highfalutin'"-sounding Hebrew I'm more used to
// in which case my assessment is totally wrong


Thats too bad. I would suppose it is easy to find an Arabic taxi driver in some parts of Israel who speak perfect Hebrew. Probably easy in the Souk, too.
 
2013-01-15 12:38:14 PM

Dr Dreidel: I don't know how to put this delicately, but I tend to hear it more from older and lower-class people (those from lower-economic classes, not that the people are low class) - min-wage workers, laborers, cab drivers (who aren't that low-rent, but not Rhodes scholars certainly) and not from the hoity-toity types. Just an observation, not a judgement - if I can understand the words coming out of their mouths, we're good - and I'm fine with being wrong about that assessment.


kind of adds up, there is a lot off issues in Israel with the way the Jewish Africans/Arabs/Asians were treated

Israel into the 70s was a very poor country and due to the "Jewish Nakba" had to absorbed a million displaced Jews from Muslim nations between 1948-1970. At the same time in the 50's the UK and the Eisenhower admin floated an idea either called project or plan Alpha in which Israel gave the Negav Desert (1/3 of it's land) to Egypt to create a path from Africa to Mecca and to try to calm the region.
Israel in response to both the influx of new immigrants and to Project Alpha moved the new immigrants into the South in small desert communities to cement their claim there.

This is where towns like Sdarot come from. To this day it has created an economic imbalance between the more city dwelling European Jewry and the Sephardi/Mizrachi Jewry. There was also bad blood into the 80s for example with Sephardi Jew's upset the country was able to better provide for the incoming Ethiopian Jews then it ever did for them. Luckily through intermarriage and a stronger economy this problem is starting to go away. It is still visible with Shas, a political party that is based on Sephardi issues.

//factoid: there was once a Shephardi political party in Israel called the Black Panthers
 
2013-01-15 12:41:04 PM

zedster: To this day it has created an economic imbalance between the more city dwelling European Jewry and the Sephardi/Mizrachi Jewry. There was also bad blood into the 80s for example with Sephardi Jew's upset the country was able to better provide for the incoming Ethiopian Jews then it ever did for them. Luckily through intermarriage and a stronger economy this problem is starting to go away. It is still visible with Shas, a political party that is based on Sephardi issues.


Yes. Thank you. This is what my point above is about.
 
2013-01-15 12:47:09 PM
Here's the most reputable source I could find on the Alpha Plan, a Google Books page on it

Britain, Israel and the United States, 1955-1958: Beyond Suez
By Orna Almog
 
2013-01-15 12:54:26 PM

people: Dr Dreidel: I don't know how to put this delicately, but I tend to hear it more from older and lower-class people (those from lower-economic classes, not that the people are low class) - min-wage workers, laborers, cab drivers (who aren't that low-rent, but not Rhodes scholars certainly) and not from the hoity-toity types. Just an observation, not a judgement - if I can understand the words coming out of their mouths, we're good - and I'm fine with being wrong about that assessment.

There is a class issue between Ashkenaz, Shephardis, and Mizrahi Jews, yeah? I've seen this before. Ashkenazis are at the top of the heap, correct?


It's ridiculous, to boot.

Ashkenazis think themselves at the top of the heap, as do Sephardis. I can recall when an Ashkenazi in Israel would have a tough time finding the right version of the prayer-book (still the case in some places), and I keep hearing about schools not accepting one type or the other.

In some VERY limited circumstances, it makes sense - a Sepahrdi, for example, has no problem eating peanut butter on Passover, while an Ashkenazi family would call that a pretty big violation. If a Sephardi kid eats his peanut butter on matza in an Ashkenazi kitchen/dining room on Passover, it could mean some religious friction. We're talking about some VERY limited circumstances indeed.

There is literally no basis at all for there to be any friction outside of these differing traditions, and that traditions differ shouldn't be a source of stress. After all, the Talmud says "There are 70 faces of Torah", and even among Ashkenazis there are differences of opinion.

It's an extension of what appears to be an innate human tendency towards clannish behavior and in-group/out-group politics.
 
2013-01-15 12:58:01 PM
Now for a more on topic post:

I think the real issue here is that while the GOP was getting all the ducks to fall in line and running the whole you don't go against a war time president campaign during Bush, Hagel was willing to question them. Hagel in doing so, a respected statesman of the party, damaged them more then any liberal doing the same. For that they will not forgive him, now he's going to work on Obama which is even worse.

With the Bush legacy in taters and the whole don't attack a war time president thing invalidated by Obama being black they cannot get revenge on him on those issues, so they are trying to use Israel as an excuse to block him. How much of a role either Israel or AIPAC (which ceased being anything other then a right wing stooge awhile ago) play in this I don't know.

There was the full page NYT ad against him bashing him for his past views on gays and Israel by Log Cabin Republicans, they admitted it was paid for by a third party. The Israel angle is to make him un-appointable to the right, it seems the gay issue to the left. Someone somewhere has a real hard-on for Hagel and is trying to throw a broadside at him.
 
2013-01-15 12:59:18 PM

Dr Dreidel: It's ridiculous, to boot.

Ashkenazis think themselves at the top of the heap, as do Sephardis. I can recall when an Ashkenazi in Israel would have a tough time finding the right version of the prayer-book (still the case in some places), and I keep hearing about schools not accepting one type or the other.

In some VERY limited circumstances, it makes sense - a Sepahrdi, for example, has no problem eating peanut butter on Passover, while an Ashkenazi family would call that a pretty big violation. If a Sephardi kid eats his peanut butter on matza in an Ashkenazi kitchen/dining room on Passover, it could mean some religious friction. We're talking about some VERY limited circumstances indeed.

There is literally no basis at all for there to be any friction outside of these differing traditions, and that traditions differ shouldn't be a source of stress. After all, the Talmud says "There are 70 faces of Torah", and even among Ashkenazis there are differences of opinion.

It's an extension of what appears to be an innate human tendency towards clannish behavior and in-group/out-group politics.


Everyone does this. Certainly, saying this is more clear than the water in a spring.

If the Sephardis think of themselves at the "top of the heap," it certainly is not of a power heap, is it? Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?
 
2013-01-15 01:04:35 PM

people: If the Sephardis think of themselves at the "top of the heap," it certainly is not of a power heap, is it? Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?


well Olmert had the whole Chinese thing going for him....

//how do you say troll in Hebrew?
 
2013-01-15 01:04:53 PM

zedster: Now for a more on topic post:

I think the real issue here is that while the GOP was getting all the ducks to fall in line and running the whole you don't go against a war time president campaign during Bush, Hagel was willing to question them. Hagel in doing so, a respected statesman of the party, damaged them more then any liberal doing the same. For that they will not forgive him, now he's going to work on Obama which is even worse.

With the Bush legacy in taters and the whole don't attack a war time president thing invalidated by Obama being black they cannot get revenge on him on those issues, so they are trying to use Israel as an excuse to block him. How much of a role either Israel or AIPAC (which ceased being anything other then a right wing stooge awhile ago) play in this I don't know.

There was the full page NYT ad against him bashing him for his past views on gays and Israel by Log Cabin Republicans, they admitted it was paid for by a third party. The Israel angle is to make him un-appointable to the right, it seems the gay issue to the left. Someone somewhere has a real hard-on for Hagel and is trying to throw a broadside at him.


Hagel just kissed and made up with various Pro-Israel congresspeople.

C Schumer
In a boon for the Obama administration's efforts to advance the nomination Chuck Hagel as secretary of defense, Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York told President Obama on Tuesday that he was optimistic that he could vote for Mr. Hagel's confirmation based on his grilling of Mr. Hagel on a variety of issues pertaining to Israel and Iran.

After a 90-minute meeting in the West Wing of the White House on Monday, Mr. Schumer appeared to be mollified on a number of concerns he has with some votes Mr. Hagel made while serving in the Senate and myriad comments he has subsequently made regarding the nuclear threat of Iran and other matters.


Barbara Boxer

Chuck Hagel is moving to assuage concerns raised by pro-Israel Democrats over his nomination as defense secretary, laying out a hawkish posture toward Iran and Hezbollah and apologizing for characterizing powerful activists as the "Jewish lobby."

In a letter to California Sen. Barbara Boxer, a Jewish Democrat, Hagel said he fully supports unilateral sanctions on Iran and condemned Hezbollah as a terrorist threat to Israel. He called it "a very poor choice of words" when he referred in a 2006 interview that the "Jewish lobby" tends to "intimidate" lawmakers, saying he understands how such words "can be construed as anti-Israel."


Plus Hagel used to argue against unilateral actions against Iran. Not any more.
 
2013-01-15 01:06:27 PM

zedster: people: If the Sephardis think of themselves at the "top of the heap," it certainly is not of a power heap, is it? Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?

well Olmert had the whole Chinese thing going for him....

//how do you say troll in Hebrew?


Right! Look how that China outreach worked out for him. hhhh
 
2013-01-15 01:08:19 PM

people: Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?


I honestly don't know. When I was a kid, Israel was "Sephardi-land", where I just had to deal with the fact that Ashkenazis like me couldn't find the right prayer-books and some observances felt slightly off.

Now, apparently, it's filled with sectarian nutbars who want THEIR radicalized version of something that may once have been recognizable as Judaism forced on everyone - Jewish or not - that deigns to cross their lands.

// I know that a former heavyweight rabbi and spiritual head of (IIRC) Shas - Kaduri - was Sephardi, as are many other heavyweight rabbis
// but with more and more olim - emigrees to Israel - with Ashkenazi backgrounds, I suspect it's a demographic problem as well
 
2013-01-15 01:10:16 PM
Oh, and just FYI: "Ashkenaz" is Hebrew for "Germany", "Sepharad" is Hebrew for "Spain"; each refers to the area of Europe where the divergent traditions first developed.
 
2013-01-15 01:11:16 PM

Dr Dreidel: people: Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?

I honestly don't know. When I was a kid, Israel was "Sephardi-land", where I just had to deal with the fact that Ashkenazis like me couldn't find the right prayer-books and some observances felt slightly off.

Now, apparently, it's filled with sectarian nutbars who want THEIR radicalized version of something that may once have been recognizable as Judaism forced on everyone - Jewish or not - that deigns to cross their lands.

// I know that a former heavyweight rabbi and spiritual head of (IIRC) Shas - Kaduri - was Sephardi, as are many other heavyweight rabbis
// but with more and more olim - emigrees to Israel - with Ashkenazi backgrounds, I suspect it's a demographic problem as well


Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews (essentially two words for the same thing) have higher birth-rates as well, so a majority of Israelis now are not Ashkenazim. Throw in increasing rates of "intermarriage" between the two groups today, and almost all Israelis will be some shade of brown in the not-too-distant future.
 
2013-01-15 01:13:35 PM

Dr Dreidel: I honestly don't know. When I was a kid, Israel was "Sephardi-land", where I just had to deal with the fact that Ashkenazis like me couldn't find the right prayer-books and some observances felt slightly off.

Now, apparently, it's filled with sectarian nutbars who want THEIR radicalized version of something that may once have been recognizable as Judaism forced on everyone - Jewish or not - that deigns to cross their lands.

// I know that a former heavyweight rabbi and spiritual head of (IIRC) Shas - Kaduri - was Sephardi, as are many other heavyweight rabbis
// but with more and more olim - emigrees to Israel - with Ashkenazi backgrounds, I suspect it's a demographic problem as well


Looking through google right now, with terms such as "discrimination Israel," I am finding many sources showing the hierarchy. I probably should of hit google first.
 
2013-01-15 01:26:16 PM

people: zedster: people: If the Sephardis think of themselves at the "top of the heap," it certainly is not of a power heap, is it? Ashkenazis have the top economic and political spots, yes?

well Olmert had the whole Chinese thing going for him....

//how do you say troll in Hebrew?

Right! Look how that China outreach worked out for him. hhhh


I was referencing the fact his parents met while living in a Jewish community in China

In fairness to Olmert any issues with China during his time as PM were primarily caused by the UAV's that Bush blocked him from returning
 
2013-01-15 01:41:13 PM

bostonguy: Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews (essentially two words for the same thing) have higher birth-rates as well, so a majority of Israelis now are not Ashkenazim. Throw in increasing rates of "intermarriage" between the two groups today, and almost all Israelis will be some shade of brown in the not-too-distant future.


people: Looking through google right now, with terms such as "discrimination Israel," I am finding many sources showing the hierarchy. I probably should of hit google first.


Another thing to consider is that a plurality (if not a majority) of Jewish Israelis aren't religious, and I'd bet that they couldn't tell you what the major differences are between Team Germany and Team Spain. And even most religious communities don't really care - it's only when you get to SUPER-religious, homogenized communities (where everyone comes from the same Ashkenaz tradition), where any deviation from the expected tradition is heresy and an affront to the local rabbi (even if he doesn't care either).

The same religious busybody problem we have in the States, where one loudmouth looks like they speak for thousands (but actually speak for themselves and Gomer up the block).

// in Ye Olde Aramaic, "Gomer" would be "Ploni"
 
2013-01-15 01:47:37 PM

zedster: I was referencing the fact his parents met while living in a Jewish community in China

In fairness to Olmert any issues with China during his time as PM were primarily caused by the UAV's that Bush blocked him from returning


Sure. American dissatisfaction with Israeli arms sales have been an issue. Also, China is not the friend Israel may have considered it would be.

Dr Dreidel: Another thing to consider is that a plurality (if not a majority) of Jewish Israelis aren't religious, and I'd bet that they couldn't tell you what the major differences are between Team Germany and Team Spain. And even most religious communities don't really care - it's only when you get to SUPER-religious, homogenized communities (where everyone comes from the same Ashkenaz tradition), where any deviation from the expected tradition is heresy and an affront to the local rabbi (even if he doesn't care either).

The same religious busybody problem we have in the States, where one loudmouth looks like they speak for thousands (but actually speak for themselves and Gomer up the block).

// in Ye Olde Aramaic, "Gomer" would be "Ploni"


Interesting addition to this comment just came out in the New Yorker.

THE PARTY FAITHFUL
The settlers move to annex the West Bank-and Israeli politics.


The plurality of non-religious Jews is ever shrinking.
 
2013-01-15 02:15:51 PM

people: The plurality of non-religious Jews is ever shrinking.


I only read page 1, but that assessment appears at odds with what I see in Israel - a more pluralistic society, as the walled-off communities hemorrhage more and more members and they lose political clout; and a less religious society, which is the overall worldwide trend. Add in the fact that Israeli support for a two-state solution is as high as it's ever been, and I generally think of Israel as heading leftward, rather than rightward.

Americans - Jews and non alike - generally have a pretty warped view of Israeli politics and policy. I include many olim who cling to a black-and-white view of the situation even as they live in it (though I guess it's easier to blindly hate Gazans when it's their government firing rockets at you), but there is a far bigger left/irreligious side of politics there - including a functional Labor Party - than many people think. Of course, there is an official state religion, so to be "religious" in Israel may mean that you go to services Saturday morning before your 3-BLT lunch (similar to England).

Maybe I just have irrational hope.
 
2013-01-15 02:30:16 PM

Dr Dreidel: I only read page 1, but that assessment appears at odds with what I see in Israel - a more pluralistic society, as the walled-off communities hemorrhage more and more members and they lose political clout; and a less religious society, which is the overall worldwide trend. Add in the fact that Israeli support for a two-state solution is as high as it's ever been, and I generally think of Israel as heading leftward, rather than rightward.

Americans - Jews and non alike - generally have a pretty warped view of Israeli politics and policy. I include many olim who cling to a black-and-white view of the situation even as they live in it (though I guess it's easier to blindly hate Gazans when it's their government firing rockets at you), but there is a far bigger left/irreligious side of politics there - including a functional Labor Party - than many people think. Of course, there is an official state religion, so to be "religious" in Israel may mean that you go to services Saturday morning before your 3-BLT lunch (similar to England).

Maybe I just have irrational hope.


Remnick put a lot of time in this. Hes been on this topic for some time now. You might want to get into the whole article.
 
2013-01-15 02:34:28 PM

Dr Dreidel: people: The plurality of non-religious Jews is ever shrinking.

I only read page 1, but that assessment appears at odds with what I see in Israel - a more pluralistic society, as the walled-off communities hemorrhage more and more members and they lose political clout; and a less religious society, which is the overall worldwide trend. Add in the fact that Israeli support for a two-state solution is as high as it's ever been, and I generally think of Israel as heading leftward, rather than rightward.

Americans - Jews and non alike - generally have a pretty warped view of Israeli politics and policy. I include many olim who cling to a black-and-white view of the situation even as they live in it (though I guess it's easier to blindly hate Gazans when it's their government firing rockets at you), but there is a far bigger left/irreligious side of politics there - including a functional Labor Party - than many people think. Of course, there is an official state religion, so to be "religious" in Israel may mean that you go to services Saturday morning before your 3-BLT lunch (similar to England).

Maybe I just have irrational hope.


That's your take? Interesting... mine's the complete opposite.

Nearly all of the people I know in Jerusalem who were Likud supporters are now Jewish Home supporters. (I know secular and modern Orthodox/national religious people -- not any haredim, so I cannot speak to them.) I'd say about 75% of the Israelis I know in the center of the country are right-wing to the point of sounding like racists. And the jump in Jewish Home support in the polls likely does not include many young people who do not have landlines. (The polls, I think, were conducted only over landlines.) Jewish Home's extra-parliamentary movement, My Israel, also has a huge social-media presence and following.

After moving from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv a few months ago, I expected to see a bunch of so-called "liberals." But it hasn't been that way in my experience at all. I was at Bibi's Tel Aviv rally at a club, and it was packed. There was even a New York Times article on the fact that many of the people there were considering voting for Jewish Home. I passed by two people passing out Hadash stickers, and no one was taking them.

I also chalk it up to the fact that a few rockets landed right next to Tel Aviv as "bursting Tel Aviv's bubble." Your perspective changes when you hear the air-raid sirens (for real) for the first time. Also, the right-wing parties collectively garnered more votes than the left-wing ones together in the last election, and it seems that will occur again.

Still, I know that's a bunch of anecdotal evidence.
 
2013-01-15 02:35:52 PM

bostonguy: Dr Dreidel: people: The plurality of non-religious Jews is ever shrinking.

I only read page 1, but that assessment appears at odds with what I see in Israel - a more pluralistic society, as the walled-off communities hemorrhage more and more members and they lose political clout; and a less religious society, which is the overall worldwide trend. Add in the fact that Israeli support for a two-state solution is as high as it's ever been, and I generally think of Israel as heading leftward, rather than rightward.

Americans - Jews and non alike - generally have a pretty warped view of Israeli politics and policy. I include many olim who cling to a black-and-white view of the situation even as they live in it (though I guess it's easier to blindly hate Gazans when it's their government firing rockets at you), but there is a far bigger left/irreligious side of politics there - including a functional Labor Party - than many people think. Of course, there is an official state religion, so to be "religious" in Israel may mean that you go to services Saturday morning before your 3-BLT lunch (similar to England).

Maybe I just have irrational hope.

That's your take? Interesting... mine's the complete opposite.

Nearly all of the people I know in Jerusalem who were Likud supporters are now Jewish Home supporters. (I know secular and modern Orthodox/national religious people -- not any haredim, so I cannot speak to them.) I'd say about 75% of the Israelis I know in the center of the country are right-wing to the point of sounding like racists. And the jump in Jewish Home support in the polls likely does not include many young people who do not have landlines. (The polls, I think, were conducted only over landlines.) Jewish Home's extra-parliamentary movement, My Israel, also has a huge social-media presence and following.

After moving from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv a few months ago, I expected to see a bunch of so-called "liberals." But it hasn't been that way in my experience ...


Oh, and another reason for Jewish Home's support is that all of the non-haredi religious people I know are jumping at the change to kick the haredim out of the rabbinate and get Zionist rabbis in there.
 
2013-01-15 02:38:31 PM
You guys are alright.
I would invite you guys for tea any time. Unfortunately, its the internet.
 
2013-01-15 02:53:14 PM

bostonguy: Still, I know that's a bunch of anecdotal evidence.


in both your position and mine. I retain hope that I'm right, and fear that you are.
 
2013-01-15 04:07:14 PM

people: You guys are alright.
I would invite you guys for tea any time. Unfortunately, its the internet.


I'd settle for a new Magic Tea Box from Wissotzky
 
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