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(Salon)   That's it. We're screwed   (salon.com) divider line 45
    More: Obvious, Robert Reich, Common Cause  
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4516 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Jan 2013 at 8:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-15 08:23:01 AM
My wife maxed out our joint credit card with frivolous things like gas to get to work and food and stuff.  I just won't pay the bill.  That'll show her.
 
2013-01-15 08:24:31 AM
At an unexpected news conference on Monday he said he won't trade cuts in government spending in exchange for raising the borrowing limit.

So he will trade cuts in exchange for raising the borrowing limit, then?
 
2013-01-15 08:38:07 AM
Well, they'll at least be able to take the chicken they've been farking with them when they get shellacked in 2014.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-15 08:39:13 AM
That doesn't sound promising.
 
2013-01-15 08:40:05 AM
GOP: YOU CAN'T SPEND ANYMORE, CUT SPENDING!
Sane people: Ok, on what? How about defense?
GOP: ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU'LL JUST WEAKEN THE COUNTRY!!
Sane people: Ok, how about pentagon budget?
Pentagon: yeah, we're ok with that
GOP: ARE YOU NUTS, YOU COMMIE SOCIALIST FASCIST BASTARD!!!
Sane people: Ok, then what should we cut
GOP: errr...ummm...errr....WELFARE AND AID TO POOR PEOPLE
Sane people: So don't help the people who need help the most, got it.
 
2013-01-15 08:42:27 AM
The 2012 election has shaken the GOP, as have the post-fiscal cliff polls. Yet the Republican Party may not care what a majority of Americans think.

That is the understatement of the year.
 
2013-01-15 08:42:32 AM
Obama's debt ceiling strategy hinges on GOP sanity

I think the Republicans will rally behind Obama's 2006 debt ceiling strategy. It is the most sane idea Obama ever had.
 
2013-01-15 08:45:45 AM

The Angry Hand of God: The 2012 election has shaken the GOP, as have the post-fiscal cliff polls. Yet the Republican Party may not care what a majority only cares about what the top 1% of lunatics in America think.

That is the understatement of the year.


No joke. Are we really this slow to catch on?
 
2013-01-15 08:47:09 AM

Noam Chimpsky: Obama's debt ceiling strategy hinges on GOP sanity

I think the Republicans will rally behind Obama's 2006 debt ceiling strategy. It is the most sane idea Obama ever had.


Why not Mitch McConnell's 2006 debt ceiling strategy? Surely he couldn't be wrong now since he wasn't wrong then...
 
2013-01-15 08:53:26 AM
Oh, and I am guessing that if the House GOP "agrees" to not default on our obligations in February, we will see a government shutdown in March. If things go the way they went with Clinton, Obama will come out even more popular than he is now, the Republicans in Congress will come out even less popular than they are now (is that possible?), and the Democrats will roll to midterm gains in Congress just like in 1998.
 
2013-01-15 08:53:39 AM
Second term Obama continues to impress.  No recent president has had to deal with petulant children in Congress who will risk the nation's credit by refusing to pay debts already owed in order to force him to make deals on future budgets.  Even having a debate over the debt ceiling is stupid.  A nation pays its debts, or its economy suffers.  Spending cuts should be negotiated in spending bills.
 
2013-01-15 08:54:50 AM
Gotta admire the GOP's stick-to-it-iveness...
 
2013-01-15 08:56:40 AM

Serious Black: Noam Chimpsky: Obama's debt ceiling strategy hinges on GOP sanity

I think the Republicans will rally behind Obama's 2006 debt ceiling strategy. It is the most sane idea Obama ever had.

Why not Mitch McConnell's 2006 debt ceiling strategy? Surely he couldn't be wrong now since he wasn't wrong then...


McConnell being right or wrong is about a coin flip, at best. Obama being right is about a powerball jackpot, and his numbers hit with his debt ceiling argument in 2006
 
2013-01-15 08:59:19 AM
Yup. You guys are screwed.
 
2013-01-15 09:00:39 AM
He most certainly will negotiate something. His weakness is that he gives a fark. The GOP really doesn't.

The entire point of their party is ruining the government, this is their dream.
 
2013-01-15 09:02:26 AM
Even Newt recognizes this as a big loser for the Republican party.  Of course, Politico calls it bullying.  http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/newt-obama-bullying-house-gop-8 6 206.html?hp=r4
 
2013-01-15 09:02:53 AM

Noam Chimpsky: Serious Black: Noam Chimpsky: Obama's debt ceiling strategy hinges on GOP sanity

I think the Republicans will rally behind Obama's 2006 debt ceiling strategy. It is the most sane idea Obama ever had.

Why not Mitch McConnell's 2006 debt ceiling strategy? Surely he couldn't be wrong now since he wasn't wrong then...

McConnell being right or wrong is about a coin flip, at best. Obama being right is about a powerball jackpot, and his numbers hit with his debt ceiling argument in 2006


So that one time when he was discussing not raising the debt ceiling, that was the only time he was ever right or ever will be right in his life. How do you know this is true?
 
2013-01-15 09:02:54 AM

Noam Chimpsky: Serious Black: Noam Chimpsky: Obama's debt ceiling strategy hinges on GOP sanity

I think the Republicans will rally behind Obama's 2006 debt ceiling strategy. It is the most sane idea Obama ever had.

Why not Mitch McConnell's 2006 debt ceiling strategy? Surely he couldn't be wrong now since he wasn't wrong then...

McConnell being right or wrong is about a coin flip, at best. Obama being right is about a powerball jackpot, and his numbers hit with his debt ceiling argument in 2006


In 2006, the Democrats voted against the debt ceiling as a symbolic protest.  They didn't actually threaten to stop the bill from passing by using the filibuster.  You have to remember- way back in 2006 you could get a bill through the Senate with 51 votes.
 
2013-01-15 09:03:33 AM
I heard somewhere that because of gerrymandering, Democrats need a 7% margin to win back the House. The Republicans might just provide that.
 
2013-01-15 09:07:17 AM

Notabunny: I heard somewhere that because of gerrymandering, Democrats need a 7% margin to win back the House. The Republicans might just provide that.


If default proves as disastrous as we're predicting it will be, yeah, they definitely will.
 
2013-01-15 09:08:28 AM
It's like negotiating with a rabid pitbull by lathering yourself in peanut butter, and trying to talk yourself out of the whole farking deal.

That's it. We're screwed.
 
2013-01-15 09:09:09 AM
Actually he could respond in some interesting ways.

1. all TSA agents are furloughed until this is resolved
2. all air traffic controllers are also furloughed
3. anyone in the military may choose to end their enlistment immediately, and be treated in all ways as if they had completed their enlistment period.
4. We have several aircraft carriers for sale
5. Amtrak is closed
6. since there should be no air travel occuring the us military is hereby informed to shoot without warning anyone flying.
7. Free air travel via military planes is prohibited

The house and senate can now enjoy their car ride home.

8. all contracts with the us government shall be cancelled within 14 days.
9. Proceed with a long logn list of all federal govt employees who will be furloughed)
10. medicare and medicaid will no longer be funded. We recomend in the words of the last Republican candidate that they use the backup medical system available to everyone-if youre dying go to the hospital
11. social security checks will be issued 7 days later each month.
12., ALL non-violent federal prisoners with less then 4 years remaining on their sentence will have their sentence commuted in 7 days and be released. Federal prisons will then close in some states.

Basically do a dramatic balanced budget, and make them share the pain wherever you can, The air travel one will drive their main constituents crazy. Fedex and UPS will go nuts.
 
2013-01-15 09:13:25 AM

Greywar: Actually he could respond in some interesting ways.

1. all TSA agents are furloughed until this is resolved
2. all air traffic controllers are also furloughed
3. anyone in the military may choose to end their enlistment immediately, and be treated in all ways as if they had completed their enlistment period.
4. We have several aircraft carriers for sale
5. Amtrak is closed
6. since there should be no air travel occuring the us military is hereby informed to shoot without warning anyone flying.
7. Free air travel via military planes is prohibited

The house and senate can now enjoy their car ride home.

8. all contracts with the us government shall be cancelled within 14 days.
9. Proceed with a long logn list of all federal govt employees who will be furloughed)
10. medicare and medicaid will no longer be funded. We recomend in the words of the last Republican candidate that they use the backup medical system available to everyone-if youre dying go to the hospital
11. social security checks will be issued 7 days later each month.
12., ALL non-violent federal prisoners with less then 4 years remaining on their sentence will have their sentence commuted in 7 days and be released. Federal prisons will then close in some states.

Basically do a dramatic balanced budget, and make them share the pain wherever you can, The air travel one will drive their main constituents crazy. Fedex and UPS will go nuts.


I don't call the time between waking up and having my first cup of coffee "interesting", but bottoms up and more power to you, you raving lunatic.
 
2013-01-15 09:15:14 AM
Why base your strategy on the one thing in the universe you know to be absolutely impossible? It's hard to shake the feeling that Obama is failing on purpose.
 
2013-01-15 09:16:00 AM

TonnageVT: GOP: YOU CAN'T SPEND ANYMORE, CUT SPENDING!
Sane people: Ok, on what? How about defense?
GOP: ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU'LL JUST WEAKEN THE COUNTRY!!
Sane people: Ok, how about pentagon budget?
Pentagon: yeah, we're ok with that
GOP: ARE YOU NUTS, YOU COMMIE SOCIALIST FASCIST BASTARD!!!
Sane people: Ok, then what should we cut
GOP: errr...ummm...errr....WELFARE AND AID TO POOR PEOPLE
Sane people: So don't help the people who need help the most, got it.


See if we cut aid to these poor people they will join the military where we can control them and use them for cannon. . . erm never mind. They will be cared for in our lovely military.
 
2013-01-15 09:20:54 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Why base your strategy on the one thing in the universe you know to be absolutely impossible? It's hard to shake the feeling that Obama is failing on purpose.


He's taking big risks because the payoff is huge and he's riding high on a strong reelection.  He's got the Inauguration and the SOTU ahead to present his case to the people.  On top of that, Congressional Republicans are polling just under Genghis Khan right now.  If you're going to slap them around, now's the time to do it.

If they don't blink, they'll likely get blamed for the fallout, and if they do, they'll face a Tea Party revolt.
 
2013-01-15 09:27:16 AM

evilmrsock: Greywar: Actually he could respond in some interesting ways.

snip

I don't call the time between waking up and having my first cup of coffee "interesting", but bottoms up and more power to you, you raving lunatic.


interesting-definition: 1. Capable of holding one's attention. 2. Arousing a feeling of interest. 3. Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die.

In all honesty im just pointing out that Obama has a LOT more leverage then folks think. He can go and really F with things-because he isn't worried about being re-elected. And inflicting pain for doing something this monumentally stupid may be a viable strategy.
 
2013-01-15 09:29:51 AM
If the GOP remains sane the Tea Party votes can go fark off.
 
2013-01-15 10:23:53 AM
FTFA: "And House Speaker John Boehner said 'the American people do not support raising the debt ceiling without reducing government spending at the same time.' "

Which, of course, is bullshiat.
 
2013-01-15 10:28:58 AM

TonnageVT: Sane people: Ok, then what should we cut
GOP: errr...ummm...errr....WELFARE AND AID TO POOR PEOPLE
Sane people: So don't help the people who need help the most, got it.


Except they're too cowardly to even suggest THAT except in the most abstract terms. They won't propose specifics, they want the president to propose the things that they want so he can take the blame for it.

Madness.
 
2013-01-15 10:38:46 AM
Since Obama is Required to spend money as directed by congress, but is incapable of funding all directives because of the debt ceiling, would be have full autonomy over what actually gets funded? Are there any rules about order of funding, or fairness in funding in that situation?

Because if not, once the limit is reached, Obama should immediately cancel all congressmens' salaries, health insurance and all benefits, but only for those who don't support a clean debt raise bill, and cancel all republican pet projects, focus any further cuts very biasedly into republican voting districts and states that have a large majority of republican congressmen. No reason why the rest of the country should take the worst of the brunt of it, and it would definitely dramatically increase the pressure on Republican leaders.
 
2013-01-15 11:03:23 AM
Sorry to interrupt the fantasizing about Obama sticking it to the GOP by cutting their pet projects, but I want to make the foolish mistake of asking a serious question about Obama's strategy.

What was the point of reaching the "compromise" on the fiscal cliff without dealing with the sequester? Don't get me wrong, I understand that he didn't want to crash the economy, but it seems to me that at least with the entire fiscal cliff debate he had a position of strength. How many Republicans came out and said it was the GOP would get blamed for not reaching a deal? Now they have the debt limit to take hostage. What was (is) the strategy? Anyone? I'm just curious.

/Also, please don't say "responsible governance" because delaying the inevitable a few months isn't the same as fixing the problem (not that it's Obama's fault).
 
2013-01-15 11:05:06 AM

imontheinternet:

In 2006, the Democrats voted against the debt ceiling as a symbolic protest. .


Are you saying Obama was lying when he said: "Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally" back in 2006? Is it because he's black? You wouldn't make that claim if he was a white Democrat..
 
2013-01-15 11:09:44 AM

NINDroog: How many Republicans came out and said it was the GOP would get blamed for not reaching a deal? Now they have the debt limit to take hostage. What was (is) the strategy? Anyone? I'm just curious.


I'm pretty sure that Boehner's inability to get the Teahadists to vote for his 'Plan B' offer was a bit unexpected. Yeah, it delays what's increasingly looking like the inevitable, but there has to be some maneuvering room to let the congressional GOP get their act together just a little after the NY clusferfark.
 
2013-01-15 11:12:50 AM
I guarantee I can weather a debt limit default a hell of a lot better than the Republican masters can. My money's all safely secured in crap like food and my wallet. If we default, they'll lose a lot more than I will.

If they want to drive us off this cliff, let 'em take the hit. It'll be real popular... trust me Boehner...
 
2013-01-15 11:18:20 AM

Noam Chimpsky: imontheinternet:

In 2006, the Democrats voted against the debt ceiling as a symbolic protest. .

Are you saying Obama was lying when he said: "Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally" back in 2006? Is it because he's black? You wouldn't make that claim if he was a white Democrat..


He said the vote was politically motivated to hit the Bush administration.  The vote was also of no consequence.  You do understand the difference between 40+ votes against a bill and 40+ votes supporting a filibuster, right?  If the Republicans want to do what Obama and the Democrats did in '06 and vote against the debt ceiling bill without filibustering it, I doubt anyone will have a problem with it.
 
2013-01-15 11:18:27 AM

HMS_Blinkin: The Angry Hand of God: The 2012 election has shaken the GOP, as have the post-fiscal cliff polls. Yet the Republican Party may not care what a majority only cares about what the top 1% of lunatics in America think.

That is the understatement of the year.

No joke. Are we really this slow to catch on?


Do you really believe that the 1%, the people with the most to lose when the stock markets take a dump, really want to see another showdown on this? To what end?
 
2013-01-15 11:38:07 AM

imontheinternet: Noam Chimpsky: imontheinternet:

In 2006, the Democrats voted against the debt ceiling as a symbolic protest. .

Are you saying Obama was lying when he said: "Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally" back in 2006? Is it because he's black? You wouldn't make that claim if he was a white Democrat..

He said the vote was politically motivated to hit the Bush administration.  The vote was also of no consequence.  You do understand the difference between 40+ votes against a bill and 40+ votes supporting a filibuster, right?  If the Republicans want to do what Obama and the Democrats did in '06 and vote against the debt ceiling bill without filibustering it, I doubt anyone will have a problem with it.


It doesn't matter how they do it as long as they don't increase the debt because increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally.
 
2013-01-15 11:52:30 AM

MooseUpNorth: I'm pretty sure that Boehner's inability to get the Teahadists to vote for his 'Plan B' offer was a bit unexpected. Yeah, it delays what's increasingly looking like the inevitable, but there has to be some maneuvering room to let the congressional GOP get their act together just a little after the NY clusferfark.


I see your point, but I'm still not following the calculation they made. If Boehner couldn't get them in line over plan B, what difference will a couple of weeks make? I mean, it's not like the cliff jumped out of a closet at the last second. Even the shellacking King and Christie gave the GOP won't make that much of a difference, because I don't think that the Reps. who are being intransigent are the ones who care what they (two blue-state Republicans) have to say. I get Obama's strategic miscalculation on Boehner's ability to get the GOP in line, but I still wonder why he went forward with the "deal". The GOP is clearly divided (and has been for some time), and I really think that creating a moderate GOP coalition is beyond the scope of Boehner's power. They have gerrymandered their seats deep red, and have spent the last 4 years saying "compromise is bad". I don't see how they will be able moderate the party, and I don't get why Obama thought they could.
 
2013-01-15 12:03:17 PM

NINDroog: If Boehner couldn't get them in line over plan B, what difference will a couple of weeks make?


Maybe none, but it gives the more influential members of the house some time to translate 'fiscal cliff' into pop-up primer books.
 
2013-01-15 12:12:59 PM

MooseUpNorth: Maybe none, but it gives the more influential members of the house some time to translate 'fiscal cliff' into pop-up primer books


Nice.
 
2013-01-15 12:13:40 PM

Noam Chimpsky: It doesn't matter how they do it as long as they don't increase the debt because increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally.


Sorry, but no.  The correct answer was 40+ votes against a bill, as opposed to 40+ votes for a filibuster, is just symbolic opposition.  The bill still passes.
 
2013-01-15 01:34:33 PM
This really is terrifying since apparently about half of Republicans are willing to let the country default.
 
2013-01-15 05:07:15 PM

NINDroog: Sorry to interrupt the fantasizing about Obama sticking it to the GOP by cutting their pet projects, but I want to make the foolish mistake of asking a serious question about Obama's strategy.

What was the point of reaching the "compromise" on the fiscal cliff without dealing with the sequester? Don't get me wrong, I understand that he didn't want to crash the economy, but it seems to me that at least with the entire fiscal cliff debate he had a position of strength. How many Republicans came out and said it was the GOP would get blamed for not reaching a deal? Now they have the debt limit to take hostage. What was (is) the strategy? Anyone? I'm just curious.

/Also, please don't say "responsible governance" because delaying the inevitable a few months isn't the same as fixing the problem (not that it's Obama's fault).


I think every rational person is asking themselves this.
 
2013-01-15 05:22:19 PM
In a weird way, it almost looks as if Obama is trying to HELP the Republican party, by forcing them to work on a long-term solution rather than rely for the rest of their dwindling existence on heels-in-the-sand pouting and hostage negotiations...in other words, to force them to act like a political party again. Trying to get Boehner to get the bedwetters to see reason, to show them how responsible government behaves and how it can improve both its own standing and the standing of the lives of those it governs.

Take a look at some of the people in this thread and in other threads whose every post is predicated entirely upon "Government = bad" and NOTHING ELSE. No other challenge, foreign or domestic, public or private, individual or collective, is as important as shrinking the size and scope of government - a government that, let's face it, is already pretty powerless in a lot of important arenas. The thing about shrinking the size of government is that you can always do it. There's always a government, so you can always debate for it to be shrunk. As long as there's a traffic light or parking meter anywhere in the country, these guys can demand that the scope of distant authority be reduced. They don't have an end-if. They will never, ever, EVER say, "Okay, government has shrunk enough; we're satisfied with the size of the government that we have."

Obama can't debate that. There is no rational conversation he can have with that mindset. He can't negotiate with it. And it likes being what it is because it's SIMPLE. "Cut everything or we crash the economy" is easy to understand. "Well, the government has a constitutional obligation to maintain a financing structure that the Constitution requires originates in the House of Representatives" is complicated and messy and requires math. Tea Partiers don't want to sit around debating what to cut or what should take priority, because NOTHING should take priority and it should ALL be cut. That's simple and requires no math.
 
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