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(Smithsonian Magazine)   Digital pioneer Jaron Lanier speaks out against the web. Specifically anonymity that can lead to "digital pogroms"   (smithsonianmag.com) divider line 98
    More: Interesting, Jaron Lanier, W Hotel, Ford Foundation, museum curator, Maoists, TED Talks, Davos  
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5406 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jan 2013 at 6:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-14 05:45:43 PM
www.newyorker.com
Look at all that lute.
 
2013-01-14 05:47:54 PM
I keep getting a pogrom error

/fail not found
 
2013-01-14 06:39:00 PM
Interesting take on things, not sure what I think about it all.

/I sure like being able to look stuff up on a whim
 
2013-01-14 06:41:09 PM
I don't know. People know each other on Facebook, yet they still act like cocks.  I don't think it anonymity on the internet matters.

As long as we're not face to face, we're still going to be bastards.
 
2013-01-14 06:45:15 PM
The sad truth is that the internet is full of cats, and Lanier is a dog person.
 
2013-01-14 06:46:06 PM
Holy hell, please tell me pogs aren't coming back.
 
2013-01-14 06:47:07 PM
DIAF JARON LANIER YOU PUSSY
 
2013-01-14 06:48:15 PM
wah
 
2013-01-14 06:49:46 PM
Some guy nobody's ever heard of has opinions about things. More at 11.
 
2013-01-14 06:51:53 PM
shiat, this is nothing new. I was digitally pogroming before hyphens were allowed in user names.
 
2013-01-14 06:52:23 PM
What did he pioneer? Middle-aged pot-belly with filthy dreads? It's been done.
 
pla
2013-01-14 06:52:30 PM
The pioneer of an essentially failed medium... A hippy who dropped out to tour the festivals pretending he can play music... Wants to give me life advice?

Dear Mr. Lanier - Kindly go fark yourself.

Love,
The Internet.
 
2013-01-14 06:53:36 PM
Proof that spending too much time alone in a dark room will make you paranoid.
 
2013-01-14 06:54:17 PM
YOU USED TO BE COOL, MAN!

/this is nothing....read his manifesto for ranty goodness.

free PDF: r-u-ins.org/resource/pdfs/YouAreNotAGadget-A_Manifesto.pdf
 
2013-01-14 06:54:42 PM
I'm sorry but I really do need the Cliff Notes version of that article.
 
2013-01-14 06:57:36 PM
Who? eh, f*ck that guy whoever he is
 
2013-01-14 06:58:34 PM
What a dildon't.
 
2013-01-14 06:59:18 PM
Hyperbole much?

/Pogrom
 
2013-01-14 07:01:30 PM
Something tells me he's pretty sore that his music can't translate into a career because people keep sharing his shiat instead of paying for it.
 
2013-01-14 07:02:20 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

WAT DO U MEAN I CANT EAT ALL THE TABLE LEGS. FARK YOU HITLER.  IMMA DO IT ON STAGE.
 
2013-01-14 07:02:59 PM

Gyrfalcon: Proof that spending too much time alone in a dark room will make you paranoid.


Why are you posting things about me? Have you been watching me?
 
2013-01-14 07:05:25 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: [www.newyorker.com image 465x316]
Look at all that lute.


That lute.
Look at it.
 
2013-01-14 07:05:47 PM

Shostie: I don't know. People know each other on Facebook, yet they still act like cocks.  I don't think it anonymity on the internet matters.

As long as we're not face to face, we're still going to be bastards.


Bingo. It isn't the anonymity, it's the lack of immediate consequences. People will continue to be f*ckwads on the internet at least until someone invents a way to punch people in the dick over an internet connection.
 
2013-01-14 07:11:11 PM
I confident this thread won't be part of the 'digital lynch mob' Lanier is speaking out against.
 
2013-01-14 07:13:48 PM
I like the anonymity. I don't like the mob rule. And I don't like the 4chan and Anonymous vigilante mob justice.

I also like free information. Though I probably fall on the side of artists when it comes to music, etc...

I see what he's getting at but I'm not sure we are going to get some kind of pogroms like he fears. Not the Fascist version or Commie version. More of a "lets get the weird person" kind. Not like, let's get all the Jews.
 
2013-01-14 07:14:52 PM

The Face Of Oblivion: [upload.wikimedia.org image 704x599]



Let me play you the music of my people
 
2013-01-14 07:15:19 PM

I hate Chevy: Hyperbole much?

/Pogrom


Hyperboles are worse than Hitler.
 
2013-01-14 07:16:01 PM
Who you calling pogroms, pogrom?
 
2013-01-14 07:17:15 PM
Well, since Jaron Lanier weighed in on it, it's good enough for me. Shut down teh interwebs, everyone. You'll have to be happy with whatever you have in your porn collection already
 
2013-01-14 07:17:56 PM

skinink: I'm sorry but I really do need the Cliff Notes version of that article.


Very much this. After page one I still don't know what his reasons are or why I should continue reading.

For aspiring writers: give me the info up top and then tell me why I should care about the person espousing the information. I don't need to hear the life story of a guy (as written in roughly 800 words) before I know why I should care about his life story.
 
2013-01-14 07:17:56 PM
BURN HIM!!!
 
2013-01-14 07:18:52 PM
You are a sad, strange little man,
i1082.photobucket.com
and you have my pity.
 
2013-01-14 07:18:53 PM

I_C_Weener: I like the anonymity. I don't like the mob rule. And I don't like the 4chan and Anonymous vigilante mob justice.

I also like free information. Though I probably fall on the side of artists when it comes to music, etc...


You can't have it both ways.
 
2013-01-14 07:19:12 PM

I hate Chevy: Hyperbole much?

/Pogrom


More hyperbole than the McDonnell Planetarium.
 
2013-01-14 07:21:35 PM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that one of the original "Information wants to be free" talking heads works for Microsoft?
 
2013-01-14 07:22:01 PM
Digital pioneers get dysentery.
 
2013-01-14 07:23:24 PM

LordJiro: until someone invents a way to punch people in the dick over an internet connection.


Do you have a kickstarter for this?
 
2013-01-14 07:23:54 PM

basemetal: Interesting take on things, not sure what I think about it all.

/I sure like being able to look stuff up on a whim


Plus, pron. But, yeah, having the answers to virtually any question is nice too.
 
2013-01-14 07:25:19 PM
Met this guy in the 80s at the height of the silly virtual reality fad.  Never wondered what happened to him.

/and now I know
 
2013-01-14 07:25:56 PM

Shostie: I don't know. People know each other on Facebook, yet they still act like cocks. I don't think it anonymity on the internet matters.


It's not. It's about zero negative consequences

People will always try to do what they feel they can get away. Doesn't matter if its social, sexual, financial, legal or political, whatever deviancy they covet, if they can act upon it with some degree of discretion and no consequences, they will usually do it.

/so Gabe's Greater Internet farkwad Theory is inaccurate. but the basis is sound.
 
2013-01-14 07:26:15 PM
imagemacros.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-14 07:28:32 PM
Interesting article, but old news.

If one defines civilization as learning to get along with neighbors, then the internet society is the opposite of that. In the past, if someone was a radical, militant worshiper of the Great Death God Borgox they'd be the only one in within five hundred miles. Eventually they'd have to leave the house, be around normal people, and eventually succumb to the pressure to at least pretend to be a normal person to the extent of not disrupting the whole of society.

But now, thanks to the internet, that same nutcase can go online and instantly link-up with every other whacko Borgox worshiper in the world. They'll create a Twitter feed, no a forum, no a website, no a movement. They'll rally together into a little online clump, isolate themselves from society and spend all day reaffirming their madness to each other & patting themselves on the back. And then one day one of them comes up with a plan, sends it to another five others, and those five go out and buy a bunch of fertilizer & a van.

There is the danger of an online society: It allows these cancerous elements to grow & fester through letting them create their own little bubbles, islands of selective evolution, that can & do indeed eventually grow large enough to become a threat to the rest of civilization. Look at Stormfront, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or even the Taliban. Gate groups love the internet because it lets them concentrate their otherwise hopelessly diffused numbers into a focal point. It lets them avoid the normalizing effects of being part of the larger society beyond their front doors and instead live on a diet of hate & narcissism. Eventually, bad things happen because of them.
Again, this is old news. All these groups - and their online presence - have been around for a long time. And frankly Mr.Lanier seems a little too wrapped up in his own little world himself to articulate this obvious issue clearly or succinctly. And he apparently suffers from this problem himself: "It explains, I think, why his father, a delightfully eccentric student of human nature, brought up his son in the New Mexico desert-far from civilization and its lynch mob potential." Isolating people from civilization isn't the solution, it's the problem. His own little bubble of "netziens" (is that even a real thing?) & musicians that has become his monkeysphere is no more in touch with the rest of reality than the hate groups, but fortunately they're generally non-violent types so we tend to just overlook them.
 
2013-01-14 07:31:07 PM

Ishkur: Shostie: I don't know. People know each other on Facebook, yet they still act like cocks. I don't think it anonymity on the internet matters.

It's not. It's about zero negative consequences

People will always try to do what they feel they can get away. Doesn't matter if its social, sexual, financial, legal or political, whatever deviancy they covet, if they can act upon it with some degree of discretion and no consequences, they will usually do it.


So... You agree with me, then.
 
2013-01-14 07:32:46 PM
You know who else instituted digital pogroms against programs?

www.deathbymovies.com

images.wikia.com
 
2013-01-14 07:34:29 PM

gingerjet: Met this guy in the 80s at the height of the silly virtual reality fad.  Never wondered what happened to him.

/and now I know


Yah, was gonna answer all the "who?" posts that I've made my living online for over 20 years and I'd heard of him before that, but remembered that he was melodramatic then and apparently hasn't changed.

So, meh.

/still have his book on VR in a box somewhere.
 
2013-01-14 07:44:18 PM
When the assholes on the intertubes can make an actual pogrom happen, let me know. Until then, I'm fine with anonymity.

If the people who run a website want people to be able to say whatever the fark they want with no repercussions, fine, then the rest of us will know who to stay away from. I sure as fark have no desire to visit 4chan.

Most people with websites that a large number of people want to visit will moderate them. Which is also fine.

It's kind of like inviting people to your house. If you don't care if people shiat on your carpet, well, then you'll probably get a lot of carpet shiatters visiting, and not a lot of anybody else. But if you keep the carpet shiatters out, you'll get pleasant visitors. No need to demand that people show their papers.
 
2013-01-14 07:44:53 PM
global3.memecdn.com
 
2013-01-14 07:46:54 PM

I_C_Weener: I like the anonymity. I don't like the mob rule. And I don't like the 4chan and Anonymous vigilante mob justice.

I also like free information. Though I probably fall on the side of artists when it comes to music, etc...

I see what he's getting at but I'm not sure we are going to get some kind of pogroms like he fears. Not the Fascist version or Commie version. More of a "lets get the weird person" kind. Not like, let's get all the Jews.


Weren't the Jews, the original "weird" people.
/tragic consequences always follow when people don't understand - we're ALL weird to someone.
 
2013-01-14 07:47:36 PM

Indubitably: Rufus Lee King: Indubitably: Whaat?

to Malamud

To Write


To too legit to quit.
 
2013-01-14 07:55:44 PM
It needs to trim the mustache hair off its top lip.
 
2013-01-14 07:59:14 PM
I heard Jaron Lanier speak at my freshman orientation in college in 1999. That was the first time I had heard of him, and that's also when I realized he was an idiot.
 
2013-01-14 08:03:26 PM
He counts himself so wise. Yet, some of the most basic and essential wisdom of life - say, that of eating right and exercising regularly - seems to have slipped away from his arrogant grasp.
 
2013-01-14 08:03:30 PM
TLDR; just stay away from social media.
 
2013-01-14 08:09:04 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: Hector Remarkable: He counts himself so wise. Yet, some of the most basic and essential wisdom of life - say, that of eating right and exercising regularly - seems to have slipped away from his arrogant grasp.

YTo spy?

What are you afraid of?

Religion?

Grow up.


Yeah. Uh...,

to wonder what the hell Indubitably means?
 
2013-01-14 08:09:15 PM
Full queue? Yeah, well fucubics...

// i have no idea either...
 
2013-01-14 08:12:16 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: What did he pioneer? Middle-aged pot-belly with filthy dreads? It's been done.


Ah, but no-one before him has 3D printed their dreads, from remnants of the Kuiper belt.

I actually agree with you though. A fat man who dislikes washing his hair has an opinion on something. Doesn't make it worth listening to.
 
2013-01-14 08:14:02 PM

pla: The pioneer of an essentially failed medium... A hippy who dropped out to tour the festivals pretending he can play music... Wants to give me life advice?

Dear Mr. Lanier - Kindly go fark yourself.

Love,
The Internet.


Hmmm...and yet you try to give the Fark admins advice?

I don't think you are a doing it right.
 
2013-01-14 08:20:43 PM
Some people just make you feel dumb. This is one of those guys.
 
2013-01-14 08:49:25 PM
Well, I thought it was an interesting perspective, even if it was extreme. It does seem like there's been an increasing mob mentality to the web. I'd be curious if, even on fark, there's been a rise in the amount of times that mods have had to delete personal contact information for someone mentioned in an article. I doubt they keep those statistics though.
 
2013-01-14 08:50:25 PM
Makes me think that he took to toking, and was one of those poor individuals who suffer from paranoid delusions after using marijuana
 
2013-01-14 08:51:46 PM
So a dreadlocked whigga has an opinion on the internet. Almost as interesting as the opinion of an actual Rastafarian. Almost.

www.healthcareministries.abwe.org
 
2013-01-14 09:00:15 PM
So when he was young and idealistic he thought people would use the technology to create some utopian society. Now he's older and has learned that people basically suck.

Without consequences the crowd will always devolve to the lowest common denominator.
 
2013-01-14 09:09:19 PM

SmackLT: LordJiro: until someone invents a way to punch people in the dick over an internet connection.

Do you have a kickstarter for this?


I'm in on this.
Kinda like Telefon, but over the 'nets.
 
2013-01-14 09:18:26 PM
He probably hides behind 7 proxies too.
 
2013-01-14 09:26:56 PM
He makes a number of good observations.

There was a need for a revolution in music and other media distribution, but the revolutionaries are more interested in keeping their access to free media then they are in the well being of the industry and the benifits to the economy.

As others have pointed out, anonimity itself is not a problem. It is the lack of reciprocity that anonimity provides that causes grief. Imagine an online game world where you are annonymous but can only ever have one character and not change your screen name. People protect thier reputations because their are repercussions to their characters in game if they act like an idiot. Reciprocity does not need to be physical.

I think his observations on the economic affects of the free information revolution are meaningful, but much like an economist trying to explain how economic theory is nothing like balancing a checkbook the greater implications are lost on those expecting to have ideas spoon fed to them.
 
2013-01-14 09:39:38 PM

NephilimNexus: But now, thanks to the internet, that same nutcase can go online and instantly link-up with every other whacko Borgox worshiper in the world.


And this, people, is why the internet was such a terrible creation. It allows hardcore nerds, conspiracy theorists, paedophiles, fat people, furries, cosplayers and bbw mexican donkey facial fetishests to congregate and convince themselves that they are perfectly normal, well adjusted people and the real problem is that society simply doesn't understand them.

Without the internet, these sad freaks would keep it to themselves or commit suicide.
 
2013-01-14 09:41:18 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: Greylight: He makes a number of good observations.

There was a need for a revolution in music and other media distribution, but the revolutionaries are more interested in keeping their access to free media then they are in the well being of the industry and the benifits to the economy.

As others have pointed out, anonimity itself is not a problem. It is the lack of reciprocity that anonimity provides that causes grief. Imagine an online game world where you are annonymous but can only ever have one character and not change your screen name. People protect thier reputations because their are repercussions to their characters in game if they act like an idiot. Reciprocity does not need to be physical.

I think his observations on the economic affects of the free information revolution are meaningful, but much like an economist trying to explain how economic theory is nothing like balancing a checkbook the greater implications are lost on those expecting to have ideas spoon fed to them.

Sir.

I need your spoon, but just to lift me up, not to scoop your fat, sir...

Quit fearing your fat.

Humanity is on a precipice, and fats helps, sort of...

To bring


Then phat shall I be.
 
2013-01-14 09:49:31 PM
When I was young, the absolutely intractable, absolutely unsolvable problem was the "North South Dilemma". The vast majority of humanity was doomed to ever increasing dependency and increasing poverty by the concentration of wealth in the northern developed countries. Countries like India, China, Indonesia, Brazil, were doomed to increasing and eternal poverty.

Sorry this guy's friends in the US music industry had trouble with their companies going out of business.

The 400 MILLION people in China and the 200 MILLION people in India who have moved from deadly squalid poverty to middle-class life styles where starvation and plague are no longer the dominant concerns are probably really sorry about those guys too.
 
2013-01-14 09:54:30 PM

Ishkur: Without the internet, these sad freaks would keep it to themselves or commit suicide.


And yet, here we all are.
Salude!
 
2013-01-14 10:06:04 PM
I believe this is the most I've seen Indubitably: post in a thread..... I've been meaning to ask you, old chap, about your.... Shall we say "succinct"? Posts for a while. Quite intriguing actually. Makes the mind wonder what sort of thought goes into the wording and the results desired (if any) upon the reader!
 
2013-01-14 10:14:53 PM

Indubitably:

To peot squared


Sorry for the thread jack.... Dude, you lost me..... Peot means: "Peot (Heb., 'corners'). The growth of hair by Jews in accordance with the command of Leviticus 19. 27. By the Talmudic period, it was interpreted to mean that some hair must be left between the back of the ears and the forehead, and for many Jews in the present the command is obeyed by taking care not to remove all the hair by the ear. Ḥasidim encourage the long twisting locks which mark them off from gentiles (and from other Jews), although there is no specific commandment for them."

In Hebrew it means literally corners, so corners squared would either be moving a little off your original track (a right turn then a left turn) or a complete 180 (2 right turns). HOLY CRAP!!!!! Are you saying this guy literally did a 180 from his original belief????

/end thread jack.
 
2013-01-14 10:21:00 PM
oilersnation.com

28.media.tumblr.com

www.lolbrary.com

'nuff said.

/the preceding post is a compilation of google image searches. it is meant to illustrate the collective incentives that make the intertubes a welcomed destination of the knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing portions of societies. This post is for educational purposes only. TiiiMMMaHHH takes no responsibility for the flow of traffic through intersections around the United States.
 
2013-01-14 10:25:55 PM
Bunch of farkwads up in here.

1) The streamlining of digital distribution and the efficiencies of such are removing people from the equation. This means that any wealth generated, will get concentrated in the hands of the wealthy. He's correct - this efficiency is not bringing wealth to everyone, only a select few. That's more of a problem with our economic system than the internet however, it's just easily observable with information.

2) We certainly do need a way to hold people accountable to their words/actions on the internet. We've pretty much demonstrated that already with the numerous reports of cyber bullying and online extortion, sex scams, etc. The worst of these offenders get tracked down and prosecuted, but the truth is (and as other people have noted) people will try to get away with whatever they think they can, so long as there are no consequences. We need to have consequences for behavior otherwise society does fall apart. It's a valid point - I don't share his distopian fear however, I think that eventually we'll catch up in this space via laws. We already are (albiet slowly).

Anyway, these points and the others he brought up are all worth discussing. We are currently in the middle of a big revolution of human behavior due to this amazing invention and it should be apparent to everyone that we haven't quite caught up to it, or even fully understood the rammifications of this change and what it's going to do to us as a species.

Interesting stuff.
 
2013-01-14 10:37:28 PM
Well, it's not surprising about half the posts in this thread (not made by a guy with an infinitive boner) serve as evidence of the mentality he was speaking against.

He makes a number of good observations about the antisocial tendencies anonymity encourages. The allusion he draws between crowd-sourced answers gathered by the google algorithm taking the work of others and utilizing it without recompense and hedge-fund derivative trading as it links to the mortgage crisis is clever and not off base. In the way they both take what is widely available and the result of a person's work and trade it without permission, consideration, or compensation to the person who made that capital/information possible.

Sure he's got some extreme hypothetical scenarios he wants to avoid, but he doesn't put them forth as a certainty. He even undercuts that in the interview.

But he's a fat guy who has unusual negative opinions about something you like and an unusual haircut.

fark him, right?
 
2013-01-14 10:44:45 PM

TwistedFark: Bunch of farkwads up in here.
...
Interesting stuff.


Cut of your jib, etc.
 
2013-01-14 10:48:49 PM

NephilimNexus: Look at Stormfront, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or even the Taliban. Gate groups love the internet because it lets them concentrate their otherwise hopelessly diffused numbers into a focal point.


Yeahbut look at my little pony fans and people who liked firefly. They're normal here, now.

/dammit those are all commercialist bullshiat
//someone think of something nice
 
2013-01-14 10:58:00 PM
any fark thread is proof that this guy is right.
 
2013-01-14 11:00:10 PM
He strikes me as the kind of weird hippy intellectual I'd want to smoke a joint with behind the bar and then have a conversation over a couple beers before I found some convenient excuse to get the fark away from his weird hippy ass.
 
Oak
2013-01-14 11:05:11 PM
Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.
 
2013-01-14 11:25:04 PM

pla: The pioneer of an essentially failed medium... A hippy who dropped out to tour the festivals pretending he can play music... Wants to give me life advice?

Dear Mr. Lanier - Kindly go fark yourself.

Love,
The Internet.


If by "failed medium", you mean "recorded music" you're correct. As a multi- billion dollar industry, it's slowly deflating like a flan in a cupboard. And good riddance.

Two industries that will ALWAYS exist, because "being there" is integral to the experience: Live music (theatre/performance art, etc.), and fine restaurants.
 
2013-01-14 11:28:22 PM
Who are all these "digital pioneers" lately that I've never heard of, despite having been on the net for 20 years now oh god I just realized I'm old
 
2013-01-14 11:29:44 PM
i141.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-14 11:38:19 PM

TiiiMMMaHHH: [oilersnation.com image 550x440]

[28.media.tumblr.com image 310x310]

[www.lolbrary.com image 700x740]

'nuff said.

/the preceding post is a compilation of google image searches. it is meant to illustrate the collective incentives that make the intertubes a welcomed destination of the knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing portions of societies. This post is for educational purposes only. TiiiMMMaHHH takes no responsibility for the flow of traffic through intersections around the United States.


The changed the code in the 00s sometimes

**always used the turn sign to walk instantly code... had lulz**
 
2013-01-15 01:25:04 AM

karasoth: The changed the code in the 00s sometimes

**always used the turn sign to walk instantly code... had lulz**


I was about to say, now I just have to go find a crosswalk to test this on.
 
2013-01-15 01:28:42 AM

basemetal: Interesting take on things, not sure what I think about it all.

/I sure like being able to look stuff up on a whim


That's one hell of an article. Gonna save that to disk, read it a few times, and think about it.

Good find, subby.
 
2013-01-15 01:34:46 AM
24.media.tumblr.com

When you're younger, you can code what you like, think what you like, and still climb into your Series A funding round for on the fad of virtual reality and make a successful exit. Then you reach that age.

24.media.tumblr.com

44, 45, your neurons give up, they wave a little white flag, and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a luddite pundit who also happens to be a fat bastard.
 
2013-01-15 02:06:12 AM

MrEricSir: Some guy nobody's ever heard of has opinions about things. More at 11.


I've heard of him, but liked him better when he played keyboard in B.O.C.
 
2013-01-15 02:19:45 AM

Hector Remarkable: Indubitably: Indubitably: Hector Remarkable: He counts himself so wise. Yet, some of the most basic and essential wisdom of life - say, that of eating right and exercising regularly - seems to have slipped away from his arrogant grasp.

YTo spy?

What are you afraid of?

Religion?

Grow up.

Yeah. Uh...,

to wonder what the hell Indubitably means?


I don't think anyone knows what he ever means.
 
2013-01-15 02:28:44 AM

bacchanalias and consequences: Well, it's not surprising about half the posts in this thread (not made by a guy with an infinitive boner) serve as evidence of the mentality he was speaking against.

He makes a number of good observations about the antisocial tendencies anonymity encourages. The allusion he draws between crowd-sourced answers gathered by the google algorithm taking the work of others and utilizing it without recompense and hedge-fund derivative trading as it links to the mortgage crisis is clever and not off base. In the way they both take what is widely available and the result of a person's work and trade it without permission, consideration, or compensation to the person who made that capital/information possible.

Sure he's got some extreme hypothetical scenarios he wants to avoid, but he doesn't put them forth as a certainty. He even undercuts that in the interview.

But he's a fat guy who has unusual negative opinions about something you like and an unusual haircut.

fark him, right?


I'm sure he makes some interesting points, but no one really cares because:
1. We all know the internet is a good place to vent.
2. He comes off as a hypocrite.
His other attributes are just low-hanging fruit.
 
2013-01-15 02:40:54 AM
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-01-15 02:59:05 AM
Jaron Lanier a very smart man who has had some really dumb ideas.
 
2013-01-15 04:58:30 AM
This twat and Richard Stallman should get together and launch Crazy 2.0
 
2013-01-15 05:22:11 AM
I mostly agree with his views on technology shrinking the economy.

But the idea of internet anonymity leading to pogroms and reducing the freedom of speech sounds like a contradiction. Without anonymity (as a choice), every statement could be tracked by say employers, government, insurance companies, banks etc with those statements just as likely to be held against you...forever.

And face it, it's not like political discourse in this country was all that high and mighty before the internet anyway.
 
2013-01-15 06:21:39 AM

Dull Cow Eyes: I mostly agree with his views on technology shrinking the economy.

But the idea of internet anonymity leading to pogroms and reducing the freedom of speech sounds like a contradiction. Without anonymity (as a choice), every statement could be tracked by say employers, government, insurance companies, banks etc with those statements just as likely to be held against you...forever.

And face it, it's not like political discourse in this country was all that high and mighty before the internet anyway.


Hate to tell you, but even behind 7 proxies, you are already being tracked.
 
2013-01-15 08:23:41 AM

ggecko: Hate to tell you, but even behind 7 proxies, you are already being tracked.



True, there's a record. But it's not like my Google search results or Fark comments will affect my credit rating.
 
2013-01-15 08:58:51 AM
FTA: At last we come to politics, where I believe Lanier has been most farsighted-and which may be the deep source of his turning into a digital Le Carré figure. As far back as the turn of the century, he singled out one standout aspect of the new web culture-the acceptance, the welcoming of anonymous commenters on websites-as a danger to political discourse and the polity itself. At the time, this objection seemed a bit extreme. But he saw anonymity as a poison seed. The way it didn't hide, but, in fact, brandished the ugliness of human nature beneath the anonymous screen-name masks. An enabling and foreshadowing of mob rule, not a growth of democracy, but an accretion of tribalism.

It's taken a while for this prophecy to come true, a while for this mode of communication to replace and degrade political conversation, to drive out any ambiguity. Or departure from the binary. But it slowly is turning us into a nation of hate-filled trolls.


I'd love to know what his alternative is. Cause I'm not really seeing how services that "force" people out of anonymity have succeeded in establishing a true one-to-one ratio between voice and identity, nor established a chain of consequence between them.

FTA: "This is the thing that continues to scare me. You see in history the capacity of people to congeal-like social lasers of cruelty. That capacity is constant."

"Social lasers of cruelty?" I repeat.

"I just made that up," Lanier says. "Where everybody coheres into this cruelty beam....Look what we're setting up here in the world today. We have economic fear combined with everybody joined together on these instant twitchy social networks which are designed to create mass action. What does it sound like to you? It sounds to me like the prequel to potential social catastrophe. I'd rather take the risk of being wrong than not be talking about that."


Mob mentality isn't new, nor did anonymity create it. In fact, I don't really even particularly think it enables it. Take your many, many reported cases of "cyberbullying" (which really needs to drop the insipid trend of appending the "cyber-" prefix to anything that involves computers). They all happened on networks where everyone (supposedly) occupies and acts under their real name.

And this is yet another reason why I don't think "cyberbullying" requires a prefix to mark it as a different sort of phenomenon from bullying. Because it isn't a different sort of phenomenon. It isn't anonymity which enables or emboldens bullies. It's safety in numbers. It's always been about safety in numbers- the "majority popular" picking on the "minority" unpopular.

Bullying just made a sensible move to a more efficient milieu which gives you access to those numbers (and that safety/validation) more quickly. This sort of mob mentality is always going to be a problem, with or without anonymity to back it.

FTA: It's a haunting image of speechlessness. A pogrom is carried out by a "crowd," the true horrific embodiment of the purported "wisdom of the crowd." You could say it made Lanier even more determined not to remain mute. To speak out against the digital barbarism he regrets he helped create.

Sounds more like he's martyring himself in classic histrionic fashion, honestly. More efficient communication methods naturally improve the efficiency in which crowd-based activities operate.

This isn't a principle which excepts crowd-based activities we consider unsavory as a society- or even as an individual. Nor did Lanier "help create" this any more than any of the internet's other architects have.

Get off the silicon cross. We're short on solder here.
 
2013-01-15 09:19:20 AM

Indubitably: I cue the eggplant saying lolwut, mans, everytime.


Eggplant??

www.lolwut.com
 
2013-01-15 09:41:29 AM

Dull Cow Eyes: I mostly agree with his views on technology shrinking the economy.

But the idea of internet anonymity leading to pogroms and reducing the freedom of speech sounds like a contradiction. Without anonymity (as a choice), every statement could be tracked by say employers, government, insurance companies, banks etc with those statements just as likely to be held against you...forever.

And face it, it's not like political discourse in this country was all that high and mighty before the internet anyway.


I think anonymity was good thing. It encourages the expression of unpopular political ideas. Ben Franklin was a big fan of it. But when the "crowd" is anonymous it can become dangerous.
 
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