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(Daily Mail)   Adultsineurope killed by euthanasia   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 47
    More: Sad, Bring Euthanasia, hospital bed, uk laws  
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15750 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jan 2013 at 4:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-14 04:55:05 PM  
5 votes:

Kaeishiwaza: On the one hand, I suppose it was their own choice.

On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?


Agreed. They could have used braille to communicate FFS. But their life belongs to them, not the state. I agree with the article that in Switzerland you must be an active participant in the act instead of being put down passively like an animal when they had the faculty to do so.

I've just cared for a close friend during her last weeks in hospice at my house. I will not go out like she did in a delirium of pain and psychosis no drugs could touch because they caused much of it.

I've also had a close friend take himself out due to depression. He needed help he couldn't seem to find. I didn't know he'd tried to kill himself on several occasions, he hid his problem well and was coldly methodical with his end so that there would not be excessive trauma to those who were alerted. I feel he had other options he didn't consider IMHO. I still miss him and harbor survivors guilt -- at least I hope I'm better prepared to look for signs in others who are salvageable.

Regardless, I think these twins had options but instead of acting alone, they involved others in their decision so at least it wasn't unilateral and impulsive.

It's still sad. It's the only life you have and if you're not in pain and can still contribute and participate, cherish every moment. Look at Prof. Stephan Hawking. He's in a shell of a hunman body but the world looks to him for his knowledge and insight. If there's anyone whom I'd feel could make a decision to live like that, it would be him, the owner of that situation.
2013-01-14 04:41:23 PM  
5 votes:
Being either deaf or blind is one thing, but being deaf already - relying on sign language and visual cues for every bit of human interaction, communication, and basic information required to function and care for oneself - losing sight under those circumstances would have been devastating. They would have gone from employed and functional to completely unable to care for themselves. Not something to want to live with.
I doubt this had to do with not seeing each others faces again.
2013-01-14 07:15:33 PM  
3 votes:

GeneralJim: bitsy_boffin: So, what's stopping you? If you live long enough, all of that will happen to you. Why waste time? What's the difference between your situation and theirs?


You might as well state a nonsense like "if you don't believe in hell, then nothing stops you from being evil".

You know your life will end, you're not afraid of it ending, but you continue living - because you like living. When you don't like living any more, and there is no solution, you should be able to stop living.

You know that a party you are invited to will end, so why do you go to the party? Because you like parties. When the party gets boring, you leave. And if you don't like parties, then you don't go to it.

Just because one does not fear death, because one accepts that they will die, because one agrees with the notion that one should have the right to determine when they die, it does not necessarily mean that one desires death to come with haste.
2013-01-14 06:33:11 PM  
3 votes:
It's their lives, it's their decision. Period. End of story. Anyone that's "hurt" about it can shut the fark up and mind their own business. Yes, that means close family too. You still don't own them......
2013-01-14 06:02:01 PM  
3 votes:
I figured there had to be more to this story. I mean, healthy people don't often go blind. Found found an Antwerp article. Here's a quote from their brother (I ran it through Google Translate, sp grammar will be kooky)

"I would also like to emphasize that they are not only blind and deaf. Eddy had a severely deformed spine and has also undergone heart surgery.....Many readers, even in the village, will wonder why my brothers have opted for euthanasia. Because there are plenty of deaf and blind that a 'normal' life. But my brothers trudged from one disease to another. They were really worn out. "
2013-01-14 04:08:48 PM  
3 votes:
Deaf Panels
2013-01-14 11:53:17 PM  
2 votes:

Arnifix: Y'all should go watch Terry Prattchet's documentary on euthanasia. Quite mind opening.

Also, echoing the "it's my life" attitude. The idea that evil people will start killing through euthanasia clinics is reaching Bond movie levels of villainy.


What's so mind-numbingly inconceivable about suicide as a preferred option is that it's anti-corporation.

How can they milk you of your savings and property if you're dead -- by keeping you alive they can still bill you.
2013-01-14 11:24:36 PM  
2 votes:
Y'all should go watch Terry Prattchet's documentary on euthanasia. Quite mind opening.

Also, echoing the "it's my life" attitude. The idea that evil people will start killing through euthanasia clinics is reaching Bond movie levels of villainy.
2013-01-14 06:44:35 PM  
2 votes:

theknuckler_33: I'm in favor of euthanasia, but what these brother's did was have someone else legally kill them because they didn't have the guts to do it to themselves.


What the hell does 'guts' have to do with a choice between killing yourself or letting a doctor do it? Euthanasia is painless, secure, and clean. Suicide by any other means (and it is not easy to get a gun in Europe to shoot yourself in the head with) is usually painful, messy, has a high failure rate and is rather confrontational to whoever finds you in a pool of your own blood and shiat. That is the whole reason why it is good to have controlled euthanasia in the first place.
2013-01-14 04:44:11 PM  
2 votes:
My first greenlight!
2013-01-14 04:39:05 PM  
2 votes:
Didn't The Daily Mail get caught making up stories a while back? I don't believe much of anything they claim.

If it is true, then... okay. Probably not something I would do, but if they're of sound mind, it's their choice.
2013-01-14 04:34:23 PM  
2 votes:
On the one hand, I suppose it was their own choice.

On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?
2013-01-14 03:27:50 PM  
2 votes:
qph.cf.quoracdn.net
2013-01-15 10:27:12 AM  
1 votes:
Wayne 985: If it is true, then... okay. Probably not something I would do, but if they're of sound mind, it's their choice.

I can't get the cap off!: The problem with this is that the desire to end your life is proof in of itself that you are not of sound mind.

JungleBoogie: This is called a circular reasoning fallacy. A similar example would be stating that voting Democrat is proof that one is not of sound mind

I can't get the cap off!: Except that self-preservation is a fundamental part of the human condition.



Yes, but death is also a fundamental part of the human condition. When a human is facing that inevitability, a reasonable person would choose the path that is more controlled and more pain-free, rather than the uncontrolled and painful path.
2013-01-15 04:01:42 AM  
1 votes:
The problem with euthanasia in the US is that pharmaceutical companies can only make money off of you once.
2013-01-15 12:41:02 AM  
1 votes:

I can't get the cap off!: lohphat:
If you're facing a horrendous terminal illness and a protracted painful death, taking a painless way out is nothing to scoff at.


Who is scoffing at it?

you clearly have no empathy to connect to their plight.

Their "plight" is proof positive of mental duress. Which is why you weigh the length and quality of life remaining to the person against the influence of said duress.

You're welcome to your opinion but that sort of projection is what some people use to block same-sex marriage

That isn't even a little bit correct.


I'm still awaiting citations on your first assertion that they are not of sound mind simply because they're contemplating shorting their lives to escape a horrendous end.

So far, we've only heard your unsubstantiated opinion.
2013-01-15 12:28:04 AM  
1 votes:

I can't get the cap off!: The problem with this is that the desire to end your life is proof in of itself that you are not of sound mind.

The impetus for suicide is either mental illness or mental duress. Neither state is indicative of a sound mind.


[citations needed]

If you're facing a horrendous terminal illness and a protracted painful death, taking a painless way out is nothing to scoff at.

You are presuming you know the mindset of other people in other situations you clearly have no empathy to connect to their plight.

You're welcome to your opinion but that sort of projection is what some people use to block same-sex marriage. "Those people are empty inside and really don't love like real couples do, so they shouldn't be allowed to marry."
2013-01-14 08:34:19 PM  
1 votes:

Kaeishiwaza: On the one hand, I suppose it was their own choice.

On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?


Perhaps for you, and that is absolutely fine FOR YOU. I'd have to give consideration as to whether life had value if I were blind and deaf, but that's not important either. It's their life and should be 100% exclusively their choice if they are of sound mind. Nothing could be more clear, more right, more unequivocal than a persons right to determine whether their own life has value for them and make their own determination as to whether they want to continue living it. The fact that the legal system, not to mention social mores, fails to acknowledge this truth throughout much of the "civilized world" is disgusting.

////rant off
2013-01-14 07:45:08 PM  
1 votes:
Tried to come up with a good headline. This one was perfect and beat anything I had in the works.

+1 subby
2013-01-14 07:30:27 PM  
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: I think having a society that allows that is setting themselves up for lots of unintended consequences.  I can just imagine evil manipulative people preying on the weak-minded emotionally crippled and convincing them to off themselves (painlessly and at the hand of a doctor) to benefit some contrived 'greater good'./i>

Add that irrational fear has not played out in countries and states which permit it due to the requirement of having a waiting period and doctors and counsellors involved. There not been a huge increase of non-medical suicides. What there has been is a reduction of horrible end-of-life suffering by terminally ill people. Again, your lack of comfort with it is not a reason to ban it. Being a free people in theory means being free of others' tyranny. You don't like it? Fine. Don't do it.

Your argument of fear is identical to those not wanting gay marriage because the sky will fall when in fact what only happens is gays get married.

2013-01-14 07:30:19 PM  
1 votes:

Bisu: Habitual Cynic: Really have mixed emotions about this... Last year, within a few months, I lost two good friends to almost identical cancers. One elected to depend on meds and pain killers provided by docs. She died with hospice supervising. Her death was not truly horrific--she was essentially insensate for the final month of her life--but there were moments of some lucidity when she was very frightened. The other friend decided to go out by her own choice. She said her goodbyes, and quietly departed this earthly plane through a carefully researched and crafted chemical cocktail. She told no one when it was going to happen and it was a surprise when she killed herself because she seemed to still be able to control her pain through meds. I wondered if she pulled her own plug sooner than was necessary. That might be my own selfishness inserting an opinion. Still, I miss them both.

It's sad that is the only option in countries like the US. If she had told others of her plan beforehand, they probably would have forced her to suffer through it by preventing the suicide. It's nice that in Belgium everyone gets to say their real, final goodbyes knowing what's going to happen.


/My mother in law died from ovarian cancer. By the time she found out, it was too late. It was fast..just about a month or two, but i remember she woke up during her drug induced stupor, and said" Am i dying?" and her voice was full of fear and she was crying, and it broke my heart, as all we could do is tell her yes, and try to let her know that we were there. If she had had a choice, and i would agree, she could have come to terms and chose to leave this earth in peace, and not in horrific pain and sorrow. There was no hope of brining her back to any kind of quality of life, and any attempts to revive her would have just made it so we could see her die again in agony. fark that. She was a good wife, person, mother, and friend to many people in our little town, and one of the kindest most welcoming persons i had ever had the fortune to meet. I would have given her the shot myself just to do one last act of kindness for her for all the kindness she showed me. We can do it for injured animals that are beyond help, why can we not do it for higher life forms so they don't have to suffer as well?
2013-01-14 07:00:16 PM  
1 votes:

douchebag/hater: It is axiomatic that if you are choosing to kill yourself you not 'of sound mind'.


No. The reality is that death isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.

Habitual Cynic: She told no one when it was going to happen and it was a surprise when she killed herself because she seemed to still be able to control her pain through meds. I wondered if she pulled her own plug sooner than was necessary. That might be my own selfishness inserting an opinion. Still, I miss them both.


Which is one reason we need euthanasia to be legal. The problem is too many people are put in a situation of either doing themselves earlier than they really would have chosen or ending up in a situation where they can't do it and the doctors aren't allowed to.

bikkurikun: What the hell does 'guts' have to do with a choice between killing yourself or letting a doctor do it? Euthanasia is painless, secure, and clean. Suicide by any other means (and it is not easy to get a gun in Europe to shoot yourself in the head with) is usually painful, messy, has a high failure rate and is rather confrontational to whoever finds you in a pool of your own blood and shiat. That is the whole reason why it is good to have controlled euthanasia in the first place.


I can't speak for other posters but you're misinterpreting me. While I only support the doctor doing it when the patient can't that does not mean I think people should be forced to choose painful/messy ways to go. If life has become intolerable you should be able to get reliable, pain-free means. It's just you have to do it yourself.
2013-01-14 06:57:14 PM  
1 votes:

computerguyUT: Europe has had assisted suicide clinics for a long time.
Don't know if that puts them ahead or behind us. Most likely just down a different path.


Humanity and reduction of needless suffering is a different path?
2013-01-14 06:56:36 PM  
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: Just so we're clear, you are saying that anyone should just be able to go into the doctor's office and ask for a fatal cocktail to be administered at any time for any reason?  That's your position, right?


I won't answer for them, but in general yes, the *option* should be available *after* precautions are carried out -- e.g. two confirming opinions of MDs and a timeout period for counseling.
2013-01-14 06:51:35 PM  
1 votes:

Citrate1007: tenpoundsofcheese: 0bamacare v1.0

It was voluntary douchebag.


Yes, 10# is a voluntary douchebag.
2013-01-14 06:37:06 PM  
1 votes:

FlippityFlap: It's their lives, it's their decision. Period. End of story. Anyone that's "hurt" about it can shut the fark up and mind their own business. Yes, that means close family too. You still don't own them......


Over in however many taht was.
2013-01-14 06:35:00 PM  
1 votes:
This is the same reason Anne Frank committed suicide.
2013-01-14 06:29:56 PM  
1 votes:

BMFPitt: Good for them. Over here they'd need to try to DIY, due to Bible-thumping asshats.

If adults of sound mind want to die, they should be allowed to.


Exactly.

It is about choice, which the Reich is completely against.
2013-01-14 06:22:55 PM  
1 votes:

douchebag/hater: Wayne 985: Didn't The Daily Mail get caught making up stories a while back? I don't believe much of anything they claim.

If it is true, then... okay. Probably not something I would do, but if they're of sound mind, it's their choice.

It is axiomatic that if you are choosing to kill yourself you not 'of sound mind'.

Euthanasia is morally wrong.


And letting people suffer unnecessarily isn't morally wrong?

I am taking care of my mother right now who has been suffering from Alzheimer's for 10 years now and by now only seems to have a few neurons firing in her brain. Which is a good thing, after years of confusion, suffering, depression and anger and slowly losing her mind.

If I would be diagnosed with it in the future, I sincerely hope that I will have both the opportunity and the right to kill myself before I lose my senses and turn in to an helpless, demented, scared wreck who has to wait for 10 years until death finally comes.

Soundness of mind?

If you have a choice between a painful death now, or losing your mind completely, suffer, and have a basically useless life at cost of society and your family, how would someone sound of mind chose anything else than a painless death before the suffering starts.
2013-01-14 06:08:58 PM  
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: Kaeishiwaza: On the one hand, I suppose it was their own choice.

On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?

Why not just friggin' kill yourself and keep the doctor's out of it. They weren't suffering.

Oh, they were suffering emotionally?  I hope that's not the rationale because there's lots of people suffering emotionally that might want to die... that's called contemplating suicide. We shouldn't be taking part in that as a society. Bind and Deaf is no way to go through life?  Maybe not, but farkin' A, make a run at it first.


It's called liberty. Who cares if some people want to die for whatever reason? Their life, their choice to do whatever they want want it as long as they don't harm anyone. The right to kill yourself is the ultimate liberty, which is probably why Christianity is so against it because religion and liberty don't go well together.

Besides, we have have a few billion people on this world. We only fool ourselves that life has meaning and worth.
2013-01-14 06:03:01 PM  
1 votes:

beakerxf: I figured there had to be more to this story. I mean, healthy people don't often go blind. Found found an Antwerp article. Here's a quote from their brother (I ran it through Google Translate, sp grammar will be kooky)

"I would also like to emphasize that they are not only blind and deaf. Eddy had a severely deformed spine and has also undergone heart surgery.....Many readers, even in the village, will wonder why my brothers have opted for euthanasia. Because there are plenty of deaf and blind that a 'normal' life. But my brothers trudged from one disease to another. They were really worn out. "


Quote source.
2013-01-14 05:57:12 PM  
1 votes:
Good for them. I believe any adult should have the right to die in a painless manner if he wish to do so. It should not be up to a doctor to decide whether there is suffering or not. If somebody wish to die, give him access to counselling, but if he still wants to die after that, just let him. Most suicides are messy and painful while it shouldn't be that way.
2013-01-14 05:56:58 PM  
1 votes:
It all comes down to a perceived quality of life. As you might be happy living blind and deaf, having known sight at least, and having it taken away, would be happy just to still be alive, someone else might find that a bit much to ask for a continued existence, and opt out. It's all about perceived quality of life man. All im saying.
2013-01-14 05:55:28 PM  
1 votes:

talkertopc: The Larch: The Larch: If someone is so far gone that they don't notice that the hospital has stopped feeding them, it might be time to let them go.

If their family doesn't notice that the hospital has stopped feeding them, it's definitely time to let them go.

Ooops... I should have read the article. They killed moby and his twin because they were depressed about going blind? WTF? That doesn't even make sense.

Really? You can't empathize with someone who would rather die than live blind and deaf?


Its a sad story. Growing up, there was a kid in our neighborhood who was like that. Didn't speak either. I'm not sure if it was a birth defect, or something psychological. There were always rumors about his uncle, who was a weirdo himself.

Anyway, that kid would just lose himself, day in, and day out in pinball.

Sad thing is nobody had the heart to tell him he sucked, or if he even understood. Hell, after the first few months of him having the machine, the parents unplugged it to save on electricity and keeping the neighbors up at all hours. Tommy still went out there to play it, and probably thought he played a mean game, which I guess is all that matters.
2013-01-14 05:47:28 PM  
1 votes:

Kaeishiwaza: On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?


Being deaf and blind is no picnic.
2013-01-14 05:46:32 PM  
1 votes:

Kaeishiwaza: On the one hand, I suppose it was their own choice.

On the other hand, damn, wtf? Giving up a bit easily, aren't we?


/I see what youre saying, but deaf, and soon to go blind. All you would have left is smell and touch, living in a veritable limbo. I cannot imagine it, and i respect their right to that choice.
2013-01-14 05:17:47 PM  
1 votes:

BMFPitt: Good for them. Over here they'd need to try to DIY, due to Bible-thumping asshats.

If adults of sound mind want to die, they should be allowed to.


"Be allowed to die" is different from "Having someone else kill them"
2013-01-14 05:13:11 PM  
1 votes:
Great Gig In The Sky: " I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I Don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime."

Their life was about to become extraordinarily difficult and to their opinion (and many would agree) unpleasant, unbearable, undignified, they chose not to endure that, for really why should they, what possible, rational, reason is there to endure hardship for what is potentially decades. Checking out before that hardship began, seems a perfectly rational thing to do to me.
2013-01-14 05:02:33 PM  
1 votes:

tricycleracer: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 500x375]


ecx.images-amazon.com
2013-01-14 04:55:59 PM  
1 votes:
If someone is so far gone that they don't notice that the hospital has stopped feeding them, it might be time to let them go.

If their family doesn't notice that the hospital has stopped feeding them, it's definitely time to let them go.
2013-01-14 04:40:06 PM  
1 votes:
I think the Spiffy tag would be more appropriate. They wanted to die, it's not sad. It's amazing they got their wish.
2013-01-14 04:39:27 PM  
1 votes:
My sister applied for a scholarship that had an interview component. When one of the girls came back from her interview, they asked her how it went. It was at that moment that the girl realized the question had been about "euthanasia," not "youth in Asia."
2013-01-14 04:39:02 PM  
1 votes:
img.youtube.com
2013-01-14 04:38:14 PM  
1 votes:
MMMUURGGLMMPPHHEEEYCHSDSDTGGHTHT" *

www.nndb.com

/*"That's really sad"
2013-01-14 04:26:51 PM  
1 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid: Deaf Panels


And that's it for the thread, ladies and gentlemen.  Someone get the lights.
2013-01-14 04:16:23 PM  
1 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid: Deaf Panels


i236.photobucket.com

Approves.

/Thank you Cheddar.
2013-01-14 03:30:06 PM  
1 votes:
0bamacare v1.0
 
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