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(Stuff.co.nz)   Good news everyone, some guy named Derek has determined that there's no scientific medical evidence for drug addiction, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or PTSD. Whew   (stuff.co.nz) divider line 83
    More: Asinine, post-traumatic stress disorders, forensic biologist, brain diseases, schizophrenia, incurable, diseases  
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10530 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jan 2013 at 2:47 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-01-14 02:52:47 AM
7 votes:

david_gaithersburg: I had a feeling that the common sense in that article wouldn't be received well here.


There wasn't common sense, only solipsism.
2013-01-14 03:11:59 AM
6 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".


never quit smoking have you?cause if you ever do, you don't sit around thinking "I want a cigarette just because I really enjoy them."
2013-01-14 04:40:37 AM
5 votes:

The One True TheDavid: Lionel Mandrake:

When we introduce a chemical into your system the voices/rage/mood swings go away!!

Sorry, no. The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself.

But hey, what you read on a web site is infinitely more valuable than the testimony of one who's BT,DT; go right on thinking "OMG I'M AN EXPERT!1!"


I'm on those meds, asshole.  I didn't just read it, I live it.

Tell me more about your imaginary hot girlfriend and her nipples, studman

OMG YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE!1!
2013-01-13 10:09:21 PM
5 votes:
I thought scientologists weren't welcome in nz?
2013-01-14 05:03:39 AM
4 votes:
I can't wait to tell the guys at the VA. They will be so relived to hear the PTSD that they think has been torturing them isn't real! While I'm there I'll be sure to tell the psychiatric staff and the addiction counselors they can all go home too.

Just think how great it will be to get all those veterans who broke their minds and bodies in service to this great nation off their meds, out of the system, and back into society.

/Great. Now I'm actually angry
//Fark you Derek you ignorant arsehole!
2013-01-14 03:13:22 AM
4 votes:
I've always felt addiction is a symptom of a different, usually more serious, but less treatable underlying condition. You get addicted to something in your efforts to distance yourself from something else. This can apply to addictions ranging from hoarding to porn to hoarding porn.

/just speaking from personal experience
//and the experience of every addict I've ever spoken with
2013-01-14 09:45:18 AM
3 votes:

Securitywyrm: So in one breath you're saying "Oh, well if the treatment worked for you then clearly you never had the condition."


Where did I even say that? Please quote the passage where I said anything remotely like that in your mind. On the contrary, my point was that the fact YOU do not have life-impacting symptoms of the disease does not make it any less a legitimate illness, especially when there is overwhelming evidence not only of it's existance, but we KNOW the pathophysiology behind WHY it exists and WHY it affects brain function the way it does.

Your argument that the "Military beat it out of you, so it ain't real" is that example of Dunning-Kruger I was talking about.

Securitywyrm: A cure is a cure dumbass,


You weren't cured. A cure implies that the biological basis for the reason you have, for example, ADHD is corrected. What you have learned to do is deal with the symptoms in a positive manner which keeps it from impacting your life.

Your RAS is still "flawed". Your brain still thinks along different processes than "neurotypical" folks.

Securitywyrm: regardless of if it fits into your little politically correct emotionally gentle world. People like you are weak.


People like me?

Dude. You're not only someone who doesn't know what you're talking about in the least, you're a complete and utter condescending asshole about it. You set up here on an ivory pedestal pretending to lecture others on chiding you for touting Alternative Medicine, and you go full retard with things like "PHARMA KEEPS THE CURES FOR X HIDDEN" and "X mental illness IS NOT REAL, ITS JUST EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED ASPIES LULZ!".  People like you are the reason that there is so much of a Goddamn Stigma attached to mental healthcare and those who seek it in the United States. People like you are the reason why people with PTSD are told to "tough it out" and end up eating a bullet rather than face the ire of their peers and condemnation as a "kook". People like you are the reason the Adam Lanzas and Dylan Klebolds of the world go unnoticed until they decide to off a few dozen kids.

People like you are the problem.
2013-01-14 09:01:28 AM
3 votes:

Generation_D: juvandy: I note this guy says nothing about nicotine. I'd advise someone get him a few cans of copenhagen every day for a few years and then have him try to get off it.

/never dipped/chewed myself, but a bunch of my redneck friends have and apparently it's quite the chore to kick, to the point that even 5+ years after quitting, they still dream about the stuff

Perhaps you should put some work into managing what you dream about.

I smoked 1-2 packs of cigs a day from age 13 to age 31; quit for 8 yrs, smoked a few cigs one summer in 1998, then quit again for good.  I don't see what the big deal is.  Other than you like playing victim by saying you can't.

PTSD: Human beings were built to recover from stress, and even to seek stress out.  But now we are told stress causes a disorder, so better medicate because of it.  Are we men and women or are we pill consuming stress victims?

Depression: Here's a pair of shoes and pants, go out for a walk.  Eat better.  Do something.  Leave town and don't come back, if you're this bummed out all the time it might be your circle of friends or family causing it.

The medical profession has in 30 years gone from most mental illness is your own responsibility to heal, and maybe medication is indicated ... to here's a pill try anything.  Now everything's a disease.  Except that the definitions of what is and is not a disease keep changing .. usually around the time a new pill comes out and we need a new set of consumers to buy it.


Eat a dick. I started exercising, eating healthy, all that shiat, and guess what? I lost weight, have more energy, look better, made some new friends, and still have mornings where it's hard to get out of farking bed. I hear from lady friends all the time how good I look now, but sometimes just going to the grocery store almost gives me a panic attack, I avoid social situations because, in my mind, people are laughing and staring at me, I know they aren't (or really hope, at the least), but that thought is still there. It's goddamn crippling sometimes, but you never dealt with it, so it must not be real, right? fark. You.
2013-01-14 04:54:46 AM
3 votes:

The One True TheDavid: The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself.


Good news! Haldol and Inapsine, the most commonly used "emergency" anti-psychotic drugs, are NOT sedatives. They work on dopamine.
2013-01-14 04:48:29 AM
3 votes:

MidnightVoyager: Why the hell did he toss in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and PTSD with addictions?


He typed mental illness into Google and that was the first 4 things that came up.
2013-01-14 03:16:24 AM
3 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".

But everything else there is giving off high theton levels.


Alcoholism/addiction becomes a disease when the person doesn't even want to drink but has a physical or psychological dependency that compels them to do so. When the feelings of joy while drinking are grossly outweighed by DUIs, divorce, losing a job, poor health, etc but the person keeps drinking anyway. That's addiction and it's very real.
2013-01-14 03:15:30 AM
3 votes:

david_gaithersburg: I had a feeling that the common sense in that article wouldn't be received well here.


common sense = uneducated
2013-01-14 03:08:39 AM
3 votes:
Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".

But everything else there is giving off high theton levels.
2013-01-14 02:08:51 AM
3 votes:
He's a Derek. And Dereks don't run.
2013-01-14 12:40:10 AM
3 votes:
However, even today, there is no scientific medical evidence that any of these so-called diseases exist.

Not for alcoholism. Not for drug addiction. Not for schizophrenia. Not for bipolar disorder, nor post-traumatic stress disorder.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

And so I stopped reading.
2013-01-14 09:27:03 AM
2 votes:

Securitywyrm: I had ADHD. I joined the military. They beat it out of me. If you can have something beat out of you, it's not a disease.


No. You didn't have it "beat out of you", you stunning example of Dunning-Kruger. You learned to deal with the symptoms through a crude form of behavioral therapy, i.e. being forced to equate the symptoms with physical pain and exhaustion.

You still have ADHD if you actually have it. It's genetic, and a part of your neuronal structure and RAS from your gestational development. In the 60s, we just labeled these kids as 'tards and slow, when in reality most are quite bright, they just need help to learn.

Chances are you don't have combined type, but either hyperactive OR inattentive axis types as well. Combined-Type tends to be the hardest to treat and manage, and if you don't have intense therapy AND parents who are involved, you'll never learn to deal with it.

I spent second through fifth grade as  a guest of UT-Memphis' behavioral health program to learn how to partially control my combined type, and went from making Fs to As with a combination of behavioral therapy and medication. I went through six different psychiatrists, including two with St. Jude Children's Hospital who specialized in doing NOTHING BUT childhood learning disorders, before being diagnosed. Even as an adult, I still use medication to help me deal with days where I have to go to class and learn dry, brain-frying stuff.

The one thing that offends me more than anything are A) People who insist because they read some crap on the internet or in an alternative medicine rag that it's not real, and B) People who use it as a crutch. Both people equally infuriate me.

TL;DR? The fact YOU do not have life-impacting symptoms of the illness anymore does not mean others dont, and it doesn't mean the disease doesn't exist.
2013-01-14 05:49:40 AM
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: Securitywyrm: . A company has a legal obligation to seek the highest return on investment,

Can you provide a cite of the law requiring this?


He's confused shareholder obligation with legal obligation.

/doesn't apply to non profits
//or companies who are altruistic.
///If you're a republican though.....
2013-01-14 05:45:39 AM
2 votes:

Securitywyrm: log_jammin: Securitywyrm: Wow, you're right, you put something that's verifiable in a stream of garbage and it picks up some stink.

the more I think about this sentence the funnier it becomes. You know who actually uses the tactic that you just described? The alternative medicine industry. and one major thing in their list of garbage is "mainstream doctors suppress cures".

and you bought into it.

And now I'm being accused of supporting 'alternative medicine' despite having never mentioned that, nor actually supporting it. This isn't about me, this is about the reality of the market forces. It's better to sell someone a cup of coffee every day than to sell them a home coffee maker once. If you don't like it, go take a basic marketing class.


Yet you can buy a coffee maker at Starbucks.
2013-01-14 05:25:28 AM
2 votes:

Securitywyrm: It's not a conspiracy, just business. A company has a legal obligation to seek the highest return on investment, which in the medical industry is found in treatment rather than cures. Are you saying that is factually wrong?


Not only is it an insane conspiracy theory ignoring all notions of human nature and wrong, it's farking offensive to ANYONE who works in the Medical Field the idea that providers keep people sick for profit.

The idea that a massive, world-wide conspiracy exists between pharmaceutical companies to suppress the cure for X, despite this conspiracy involving innumerable numbers of people, and somehow having no legitimate, concrete evidence of doing so is - at it's basic definition - insane.
2013-01-14 05:16:48 AM
2 votes:

Securitywyrm: It's not a conspiracy.


You're right. It's not a conspiracy. It's a conspiracy theory.

Securitywyrm: Are you saying that is factually wrong?


yes. I am saying the medical industry is not suppressing cures to diseases like AIDS and cancer.
2013-01-14 05:03:13 AM
2 votes:

BronyMedic: The One True TheDavid: The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself.

Good news! Haldol and Inapsine, the most commonly used "emergency" anti-psychotic drugs, are NOT sedatives. They work on dopamine.


All I can tell this guy is that if the rage and mood swings go away on drugs that make him drool & shiat himself but the voices stay, then he's on the wrong meds and he needs to tell his doctor. He's getting heavy-duty tranquilizers, not anti-psychotics; or else he's getting anti-psychs at too high of a dosage.

There are lots and lots of meds out there besides Thorazine and most of them work a lot better. If your doctor won't try them, you should find a doctor who will.
2013-01-14 04:49:35 AM
2 votes:

grinding_journalist: I've always felt addiction is a symptom of a different, usually more serious, but less treatable underlying condition. You get addicted to something in your efforts to distance yourself from something else. This can apply to addictions ranging from hoarding to porn to hoarding porn.

/just speaking from personal experience
//and the experience of every addict I've ever spoken with


Probably this. I never knew any meth addicts who didn't have either depression or bipolar disorder BEFORE they started using speed. Especially bipolar, because speed is great for not only improving the depression but also calming down the mania. I once had a psychiatrist I trusted whom I told I could actually sleep on speed, and he instantly took me off lithium and put me on a different mood stabilizer for the first time since my diagnosis--one that worked.

Same way nearly every schizophrenic really really needs nicotine, more so than ordinary smokers. Whatever is in there, it keeps them grounded to reality.

As to the rest, all I can say is this past summer, I had been off my meds for seven months, thought I was doing great, and suddenly had a crashing depression for no real reason anyone could pinpoint. My life was good, nothing had changed particularly, but WHAM!--suicidal ideations and complete loss of hope coupled with paranoia and violent mood swings. Went back on my meds--reversal within three weeks. Anyone who wants to tell me I "want to be sick" or this is just some kind of mental tic needs to explain why after four years of good health and seven months off my meds and NO change in my life I would suddenly have symptoms again...unless it was my brain chemistry.
2013-01-14 04:49:30 AM
2 votes:
"It's not my fault, it's a disease."
Honestly, I agree with most of what is said. Drug addiction can be proven scientifically, but it is not a 'disease.' There is a lot to be said for how companies have a financial incentive to provide treatments instead of cures.
Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?
2013-01-14 04:42:57 AM
2 votes:

The One True TheDavid: Lionel Mandrake:

When we introduce a chemical into your system the voices/rage/mood swings go away!!

Sorry, no. The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself


Actually, no. I know people who are completely functional on their meds. Hell, I know people who are only functional on their meds. But you go ahead and parade your ignorance. I don't mind.
2013-01-14 04:17:33 AM
2 votes:

MidnightVoyager: Why the hell did he toss in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and PTSD with addictions?


because he's stupid. And if there is one thing the internet is good at, it's letting stupid people express their stupid opinions.
2013-01-14 03:29:17 AM
2 votes:
"...psychiatrists have yet to devise one single biological test to prove scientifically that any of their diseases actually exist. Why? Because they don't exist!"

How about this: radically different brain scans showing parts of a persons brain are hypoactive and others are hyperactive, and are very different from base/normal people.  Depending on which parts are hypo- and which are hyper- you're brain scan will probably look a lot like other scans of people who hear voices or have wild mood swings like you do!

When we introduce a chemical into your system the voices/rage/mood swings go away!!

HOW IS THIS NOT PROOF!

There are DNA studies, studies of twins raised separately (twins with alcoholic parents or schizophrenic or whatever) who have roughly the same chance of developing a condition when raised apart in different environments (like children of alcoholics raised separately - one by drinkers, one by non-drinkers - whose chances of being addicts are pretty similar)

Do some people drink irresponsibly and it causes problems, but they aren't alcoholics?  Yes.  If you are saying this is true of all people suffering (yes suffering) from addiction, you are a fkn idiot.

Ergo, this guy is a fkn idiot.

There is plenty of scientific evidence - fkn mountains and more all the time - that disprove this moran's sanctimonious garbage.

I know fark-all about PTSD, so apply the above only to the others.
433 [TotalFark]
2013-01-14 03:24:03 AM
2 votes:

grinding_journalist: Author has very clearly never met anyone with any of these conditions.


Or has met a very few, and remained aloof and smug.  I knew a man not long ago that held an opinion close to Derek's, and after a while I left him alone.  The worst was when he referred to people suffering from either situational depression or clinical depression as "you people."  It was is he felt he was being persecuted by a world that ran against his unpopular and crackpot philosophies.

I'll eat lead paint chips if folks riding this bus are right.  At least he didn't invoke much of a conspiracy theory; he probably keeps that out of the paper and instead, on the cue cards at the local highly illogical thinkers society.
2013-01-14 03:17:24 AM
2 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".

But everything else there is giving off high theton levels.



Chemical dependency is what makes it an addiction. When your body goes through withdrawal because it does not have what it craves. Have you never seen what a heroine addict goes through? How about we go lower and try caffeine withdrawal, the headaches. Really dude?
433 [TotalFark]
2013-01-14 03:16:48 AM
2 votes:

red5ish: In comparison to genuine diseases like cancer, psychiatrists have yet to devise one single biological test to prove scientifically that any of their diseases actually exist. Why? Because they don't exist!


I suppose MRIs aren't biological, since they only take cool pictures.
If Derek has schooling beyond an HS diploma, I'm betting he's getting a kiwi equivalent of an MBA.
2013-01-14 03:14:56 AM
2 votes:
Oh, and his comments about PTSD and the mental disorders he mentions are complete bullshiat. Author has very clearly never met anyone with any of these conditions.
2013-01-14 03:08:25 AM
2 votes:
Whew. I thought this was Derek Smart for a second.
2013-01-14 03:08:14 AM
2 votes:
In comparison to genuine diseases like cancer, psychiatrists have yet to devise one single biological test to prove scientifically that any of their diseases actually exist. Why? Because they don't exist!
imageshack.us
2013-01-14 02:59:34 AM
2 votes:
wow. the headline is 100% accurate.

It's just some guy named derek making baseless claims.
2013-01-14 02:28:33 PM
1 votes:

BronyMedic: Securitywyrm: It's not a conspiracy, just business. A company has a legal obligation to seek the highest return on investment, which in the medical industry is found in treatment rather than cures. Are you saying that is factually wrong?

Not only is it an insane conspiracy theory ignoring all notions of human nature and wrong, it's farking offensive to ANYONE who works in the Medical Field the idea that providers keep people sick for profit.

The idea that a massive, world-wide conspiracy exists between pharmaceutical companies to suppress the cure for X, despite this conspiracy involving innumerable numbers of people, and somehow having no legitimate, concrete evidence of doing so is - at it's basic definition - insane.


Realistically, it'd be the soulless drones in the insurance companies doing it anyway, by denying payment for treatment and forcing people to decide between paying and dying, rather than Big Pharma. Big Pharma, for all of its problems, still creates cures and isn't anywhere near the bottom feeder that insurance is.

/Single-payer!
2013-01-14 01:05:21 PM
1 votes:

david_gaithersburg: BronyMedic: david_gaithersburg: The actions of your ilk extend well beyond this message board.

How have you been oppressed by me and my ilk, oh victim of society?

It must be horrible to have the life view that anyone who doesn't suck your belief system's cock is coming to get you and take you to the camp.

.
What's it like living with the deaths of 20 mil on your hands?


Look, you can't blame BronyMedic for that. Your brain cells committed suicide due to their horrific working conditions.
2013-01-14 11:32:07 AM
1 votes:
Just to clarify for people. Addiction, just like several other mental disorders results from changes in synaptic plasticity. It has recently been found that addiction involves a large learning component in which reinforced behavior becomes associately linked to drug intake, environment etc...(i.e., neurons form new synapses, largely from the prefrontal cortex to the nucleus accumbens). This is the point that differentiates a normal brain from one that has some pathology or another. Normal brains have compensatory mechanisms like protein down-regulation and receptor reserve, which are more easily reversed than "addicts", who essentially become "hard-wired", as new synapses form. I'm not saying both cellular responses aren't happening to both "normal" and "addicted" individuals, synaptic remodeling just appears to be more severe in people genetically predisposed to addiction. What this means for the addicted individual is that even after your nucleus accumbens becomes desensitized and is telling you the "coke, heroin, whatever" isn't that rewarding anymore, the activity itself (and any environmental cues that could trigger it), becomes what's reinforcing (i.e., compulsion). That seat of power resides in the lower parts of your brain (VTA, Amygdyla) and is not easily controlled. However, addiction can be treated through behavior modification and pharmacological intervention. Remember, your behavior can also change your neural network. That's why researches point out that it takes quite a bit of reinforced practice before a habit becomes a habit.


/the more you know
2013-01-14 11:19:50 AM
1 votes:

glmorrs1: Sorry to threadjack, but as a paramedic and fellow Memphian, do you have any advice for a 28 year old twice college dropout that's finally getting his shiat together and is considering going into an EMT program?

/EIP
//end threadjack


I don't mind the threadjack in the least.

I guess the best answer I can give you is it depends. If you want to be an EMT, you need to have your heart set on it. The work is not glamorous, and it's not easy. You're going to be in mud, cold, water, hazardous materials, and bodily fluids that you never even knew existed. You'll also have to work hard to rise above your peers - Memphis and the surrounding areas have an overabundance of EMTs in the area because of how easy the program is to get into for that portion of it. To be honest, I tell people if they want to get their EMT in Memphis, get your Arkansas license and go to work in the rural areas there - they're hurting bad for them in East Arkansas.

Southwest has a great program for EMT and Paramedic, and so does Northwest Mississippi and Arkansas State (If you get your EMT there, Tennessee wont license you unless you take the EMT-IV upgrade).

The job is rewarding. At times, it's VERY rewarding. You won't get thanks that much, but it means a lot when you do. Your pay is going to suck for what you do. Even as a Paramedic, you have to work hard to get paid what you are worth, and field jobs that do it are rare to open.

If you have the college for it, I'd recommend going to nursing school after you get your EMT license unless you have your heart dead set on working prehospital as a Paramedic. Nursing has a lot more opprotunities for advancement, both in pay and in specialty. Paramedics are still 10 years away from their intermediate practitioner level being a nation-wide thing, and Critical Care Paramedic licensing upgrade classes are few and far between for the State. As an EMT, you can volunteer or work for most agencies in the area and get away with it. 911 jobs in the area are very hard to get, and most EMTs who dont end up with a volunteer response agency end up doing interfacility and non-911 response unless they go into the rural counties.

My profile has a spam email in it you can email me at. If you want to set down and talk one day about it, or just want to talk a little more about what it's like off FARK, shoot me your contact info and I'll give you a holler. If you do decide to go to EMT school, let me know and I'll help you in any way I can, including tutoring and skills proctoring. My employer has a pretty good lab and simulation set up I can pontentially use as well.
2013-01-14 10:53:25 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: "It's not my fault, it's a disease."
Honestly, I agree with most of what is said. Drug addiction can be proven scientifically, but it is not a 'disease.' There is a lot to be said for how companies have a financial incentive to provide treatments instead of cures.
Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?


you don't understand what the word "disease" means.
2013-01-14 10:30:38 AM
1 votes:

glmorrs1: Generation_D: tl;dr: Kid gets diagnosed as needing strong brain chemicals after one visit to a well-respected psychiatrist; doesn't like the medication, trades it for LSD from schitzophrenic people, has a fun summer tripping balls.  Elevates own self worth, moves away from town, gets on with life.  A few years later learns this doctor was a pedophile.

Therefore, depression/anxiety and ADD aren't real?


And as for your find-what-works for-you-approach? That's what people like me are trying to do, but then we have assholes like you telling us nonstop that we're looking for solutions to problems that don't really exist.
2013-01-14 10:23:58 AM
1 votes:

Generation_D: tl;dr: Kid gets diagnosed as needing strong brain chemicals after one visit to a well-respected psychiatrist; doesn't like the medication, trades it for LSD from schitzophrenic people, has a fun summer tripping balls.  Elevates own self worth, moves away from town, gets on with life.  A few years later learns this doctor was a pedophile.


Therefore, depression/anxiety and ADD aren't real?
2013-01-14 10:13:02 AM
1 votes:

The One True TheDavid: Lionel Mandrake:

When we introduce a chemical into your system the voices/rage/mood swings go away!!

Sorry, no. The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself.

But hey, what you read on a web site is infinitely more valuable than the testimony of one who's BT,DT; go right on thinking "OMG I'M AN EXPERT!1!"


Ermmmmm. No. Have you known many Schizophrenics?

I have, and on proper medication, they resemble the rest of us. Not drooling fools shiatting themselves.

Troll?
2013-01-14 10:06:33 AM
1 votes:

Ed Grubermann: Depends on the addiction. Heroin? Meth? Cocaine? Yep. Chemically addictive. Porn? WoW? Not really. Any activity with a reward can cause a feedback loop that makes you want to do it again and again. But some chemicals are deeply addictive. The guy in TFA is an idiot.


Actually those, along with gambling, have been linked to chemical imbalances in the brain. You know why so many Parkinson meds have a warning that it may cause ADDICTION TO GAMBLING? It's because it does nothing but produce the same levels of dopamine so when Aunt Martha wins a $5 gift card at the Church Bingo night her brain that there is a reward there and she should do it again. And again. And again. A healthy brain producing its own dopamine will eventually burn that reward sensation out if there are no results and move on. However, when you play a game you had an initial positive experience with, your brain is illogically addicted to the act of repeating it for that reward. Almost as soon as their taken off their meds they are back to normal and regretting the fact that they hocked the family silver.

I'd argue, very similarly, people with dopamine issues, whether medically induced or not, suffer the same issues with video games and porn.
2013-01-14 10:01:32 AM
1 votes:

Generation_D: tl;dr: Kid gets diagnosed as needing strong brain chemicals after one visit to a well-respected psychiatrist; doesn't like the medication, trades it for LSD from schitzophrenic people, has a fun summer tripping balls.  Elevates own self worth, moves away from town, gets on with life.  A few years later learns this doctor was a pedophile.


Kid distrusts ALL doctors because of it?
2013-01-14 09:54:00 AM
1 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".


You've never had to stand around and deal with a friend or relative drying out, have you?
2013-01-14 09:45:24 AM
1 votes:
As someone currently suffering with Complex PTSD, I say F*ck off, Derek.
Also have a sister who is Schizo-affective. It was LOADS of fun growing up with her!!!

Addiction... well, I think that depends on the person themselves, their background and their brain chemistry as to being more susceptible to addiction or depression. Sometimes one leads to the other.
2013-01-14 09:36:43 AM
1 votes:
Let me just say, as I approach 90 days without any alcohol or pot, I am surprised I can laugh at all of this. When I was first diagnosed as an addict I had that attitude that it absolved me from responsibility for my actions. Same was true when I had been clean for 6 months and was then diagnosed with bipolar. "It's not my fault, I'm sick." When I was sober and taking my meds and not acting as crazy, I found that I had to be responsible to which my basic reaction was "Fark that shiat!" That attitude got me 10 more years of suffering. Today I understand that I need the meds to keep me from killing myself or someone else and if I drink then those meds don't work. Pretty damn simple. Why does it work that way? I don't know and I don't want to, I just don't want to end up in another homeless shelter (2 times so far) or in another mental ward (4 trips and if I end up with a 5th I ain't coming back out). It is a disease, or call it a disorder if that makes you feel better, and it is also a matter of choice... whether or not I choose to treat it.

/yes, I am a member of a 12-step group
//no, I don't think it is the only way to get sober
2013-01-14 09:24:44 AM
1 votes:

StashMonster: Some people love their drugs and swear by them, but others say they just make them feel worse if anything. That includes people who REALLY wished they did work.


Chemically controlling disorders is definitely not a precise science, there's a lot to be learned yet. None of this means it isn't a science, or it doesn't work altogether.

My wife's got Severe Bipolar Disorder. It's taken a good while for her to find a combination of medications that work for her- over many iterations. You can of course build tolerances, and that means this working combination might not be a working one in time.

It stinks, but managing something like this requires constant effort and vigilance.
2013-01-14 09:17:37 AM
1 votes:

Generation_D: glmorrs1: Generation_D: juvandy: I note this guy says nothing about nicotine. I'd advise someone get him a few cans of copenhagen every day for a few years and then have him try to get off it.

/never dipped/chewed myself, but a bunch of my redneck friends have and apparently it's quite the chore to kick, to the point that even 5+ years after quitting, they still dream about the stuff

Perhaps you should put some work into managing what you dream about.

I smoked 1-2 packs of cigs a day from age 13 to age 31; quit for 8 yrs, smoked a few cigs one summer in 1998, then quit again for good.  I don't see what the big deal is.  Other than you like playing victim by saying you can't.

PTSD: Human beings were built to recover from stress, and even to seek stress out.  But now we are told stress causes a disorder, so better medicate because of it.  Are we men and women or are we pill consuming stress victims?

Depression: Here's a pair of shoes and pants, go out for a walk.  Eat better.  Do something.  Leave town and don't come back, if you're this bummed out all the time it might be your circle of friends or family causing it.

The medical profession has in 30 years gone from most mental illness is your own responsibility to heal, and maybe medication is indicated ... to here's a pill try anything.  Now everything's a disease.  Except that the definitions of what is and is not a disease keep changing .. usually around the time a new pill comes out and we need a new set of consumers to buy it.

Eat a dick. I started exercising, eating healthy, all that shiat, and guess what? I lost weight, have more energy, look better, made some new friends, and still have mornings where it's hard to get out of farking bed. I hear from lady friends all the time how good I look now, but sometimes just going to the grocery store almost gives me a panic attack, I avoid social situations because, in my mind, people are laughing and staring at me, I know they aren't (or really hope, at the least), but ...

Why is your inability to handle your own panic my fault somehow?  You know its quite possibly a choice what your brains creating for you to panic over, right?  No?  Oh well.  Sorry.

I'll withdraw everything I said if it'll make you feel better.  Except the part I said behind your back.  That part is going on facebook.


I don't say it was your fault, prick, and i don't think I asked you for any farking help either, but you acting like all this shiat is made up is kind of infuriating. So again, eat a dick.
2013-01-14 09:14:09 AM
1 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: If the cure is "make different personal lifestyle choices" then it is fundamentally different from a problem you have no control over.


You have control over Diabetes. That's widely considered a disease.

And Science is already proving that these particular "diseases" we're speaking of can be treated in ways that can either take over for "personal lifestyle choices", or compliment them.

At a guess, I'd say your definition is faulty.
2013-01-14 08:46:38 AM
1 votes:

ZER0T0THEC0RE: I'm so tired of people who use the argument 'because there is no scientific evidence to support it, when there is also no scientific evidence to support their counter point.


I'm just sick of people who suggest there's no scientific evidence for something when they clearly don't have a shadow of a firm grasp on just what science is (how it works, how it functions, what the goddamn empirical process is and what it does, and so on) in the first damn place.

The fact that no scientific evidence exists for what he's proposing as an alternative is indicative of the above state of affairs.

The article may as well have been summed up as "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
2013-01-14 08:34:09 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: Doubleodoug: Addiction isn't a disease in the traditional sense. I didn't think anyone was arguing that point. Addiction IS a behavioral issue WITH underlying biological/chemical conditions that make the behavior hard to change. Treating addiction as a disease has proven highly effective by trying to interrupt the biofeedback loops that underlies the behavior.

Of course any valid point he may have had is lost in his derp storm.

Unfortunately it has also come with "It's not my fault, it's a disease."
"The poor grades aren't my fault, I have ADHD" VS "I need to pay more attention in class."
"It's not my fault I weigh 500 pounds, I have an over-eating disease." VS "I'm over-eating and need to stop doing that."
"It's not my fault that I'm an asshole, I have asbergers syndrome!" VS "Maybe people would like me more if I spent more energy on social interaction."
"It's not my fault that I spend all my money frivelously, I have a disease" vs "I need to take some money management lessons."

See where this is going? When you label a certain bad behavior as 'not their fault' then people will continue to engage in it. Of course, making someone feel ashamed of their behavior is "Not helpful to their mental health" so we let them have a nice societally-accepted excuse for it. I won't accept that.


I don't think the point is to remove responsibility. For alcoholics anyway, when they explained it to me as a disease, and described the treatment for it, I had to take the responsibility to treat it. It would be like getting told you are a diabetic, and them telling you that in order to be well you have to take insulin on a daily basis. You can take responsibility and learn how to manage it or you can ignore it and die much sooner.

Having a disease does not make it a free pass to be an asshole. It gives the person a starting point and lets them know that there is medical help available. The problem with addiction is that most addicts do not believe that they have a problem in spite of the life destroying consequences happening in their daily lives and they refuse treatment.
2013-01-14 08:02:23 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: Do you honestly expect the government not to immediately pass laws restricting how much you can charge for it?


Are you kidding? I expect the government to give me gigantic grants and subsidies. It might sell on the market for $10/dose, but by the time I get my tax breaks, research grants, automatic blowjob machines, and production subsidies, I'm raking in at least $10,000/dose.

It's almost like you have no idea how the medical industry works.

Lady Indica: So with gambling, what if the external activity creates an internal chemical response (because, it does). However in some individuals, due to both genetic and environmental factors (most likely) has a complex reaction which for them (due to both nature & nuture) is highly addictive in the same way any chemical addiction works.


We have a very clear biological basis for gambling addiction, and it's much more nature than nurture. When human beings see an outcome that they want, the brain provides a rush of neurotransmitters that signal a reward response- it's like rewarding a well behaved child with a cookie. In gambling, when you're dealt a 21 at a blackjack table, or get all three wheels aligned on a slot, that reward event happens.

In the case of compulsive gamblers, the reward response happens on near misses. The first card dealt is an Ace and the second's a two, or only two wheels line up. Their brain responds to those events the same way a normal brain responds to a success. They didn't win, but they feel like they won. This causes them to see patterns that aren't there (because the same reward pathway triggers when we discern a pattern in data).

When you take into account that everything about casinos are designed to take advantage of that, to trick even normal brains into falling into that trap, those with abnormal brains don't stand a chance.

That, by the way, is also why many drugs warn that they could cause compulsive gambling as a side effect. They screw up your dopamine pathways and cause your brain to start doling out rewards in cases it shouldn't.
2013-01-14 07:49:04 AM
1 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".

But everything else there is giving off high theton levels.


For every addict, it starts as an activity they enjoy. It becomes something much more when they are hurting themselves physically and emotionally and they continue to use their drug/alcohol in spite of their lives falling apart around them.

I have known people that lost everything. Family, finances, friendships and homes all gone because they could not face a day without their drug of choice. Is it a measurable physical ailment? Not right now but it may be someday. Is it a paralyzing mental disorder? I think there is a truckload of evidence to support that.

In spite of the authors assertion, there are many recovery techniques that do not involve AA and god. There is cognitive behavioral therapy, groups like LifeRing (Secular recovery), regular counseling, making a plan as a family and involving friends and others. They all have a varying degree of success.

Part of the problem in diagnosing addiction is that there is a fine line between overindulgent drinking and addiction. Doctors may be more apt to diagnose addiction because of they just recommend cutting back and the guy dies on an alcoholic bender 3 months later there may be liability issues.

All I can say is that I have been there and done that and I have been in recovery for some time now. It was not a question of weak will for me. It was an undeniable obsession that I had to slowly train out of my system. I personally lost a lot due to addiction. I made a full comeback but most don't. I suppose that is the real diagnosis right there...... If you drink/use yourself to death, you are an addict. Unfortunately as a dead guy, you are beyond help.
2013-01-14 06:54:57 AM
1 votes:
I don't entirely agree with this guy, but I would taker a middle ground. I would describe addictions as an affliction, at least, but I'm not sure I agree they are a disease. To me, something that you can choose to stop doing (no matter how incredibly hard it might be) is different from cancer. You can't choose not have cancer.
2013-01-14 06:08:58 AM
1 votes:

On-Off: don't make the product that suit the customer the best, make the one that we can make the biggest profit on.


and don't see repeat business.
2013-01-14 05:58:56 AM
1 votes:

On-Off: What would suit our customer the best is not our problem and is not the problem of any succesful company


A lot of CEO's would like a word with you.
2013-01-14 05:58:43 AM
1 votes:

fluffy2097: Fark ate my image. This was a legitimate pre-FDA medical treatment.
[i.imgur.com image 850x1136]


What a legitimate over-the-counter medical treatment looked like before the FDA:

upload.wikimedia.org
2013-01-14 05:57:38 AM
1 votes:

On-Off: I tell you like it is in my field: new technologie is only developed in order to match that our concurents may offer, should be as cheap as possible, and be sold as expensive as possible.
What would suit our customer the best is not our problem and is not the problem of any succesful company


Is your company motto "fark you. we mean it."?
2013-01-14 05:45:57 AM
1 votes:

On-Off: And for non lethal chronical diseases, well, "maybe suppress the cure", because treating it forever makes more money.
They are not there to treat desaseases, but tomake money!


What non-lethal chronic diseases are you talking about?
2013-01-14 05:45:08 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: And now I'm being accused of supporting 'alternative medicine' despite having never mentioned that, nor actually supporting it.


I didn't say you believe in alternative medicine. i said you bought into the argument that they made up to sell their products.

Securitywyrm: This isn't about me, this is about the reality of the market forces. It's better to sell someone a cup of coffee every day than to sell them a home coffee maker once. If you don't like it, go take a basic marketing class.


Hint: People get cancer every day. They would never run out of people to sell cancer cures to. They only people making money off your theory is the alternative medicine industry. And you're helping to spread their slogans for them. congrats man. People die from buying in that shiat.
2013-01-14 05:42:08 AM
1 votes:

BronyMedic: Securitywyrm: It's not a conspiracy, just business. A company has a legal obligation to seek the highest return on investment, which in the medical industry is found in treatment rather than cures. Are you saying that is factually wrong?

Not only is it an insane conspiracy theory ignoring all notions of human nature and wrong, it's farking offensive to ANYONE who works in the Medical Field the idea that providers keep people sick for profit.

The idea that a massive, world-wide conspiracy exists between pharmaceutical companies to suppress the cure for X, despite this conspiracy involving innumerable numbers of people, and somehow having no legitimate, concrete evidence of doing so is - at it's basic definition - insane.


I would'nt get as far as "suppress the cure for X"
rather "patent-troll and use every legal posibilty to avoid generics for third-world countries."
Pharma-corp spend 2 to 3 times more on marketing a on research, it is easy to google.
And for non lethal chronical diseases, well, "maybe suppress the cure", because treating it forever makes more money.
They are not there to treat desaseases, but tomake money!
2013-01-14 05:39:05 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: Securitywyrm: Wow, you're right, you put something that's verifiable in a stream of garbage and it picks up some stink.

the more I think about this sentence the funnier it becomes. You know who actually uses the tactic that you just described? The alternative medicine industry. and one major thing in their list of garbage is "mainstream doctors suppress cures".

and you bought into it.


And now I'm being accused of supporting 'alternative medicine' despite having never mentioned that, nor actually supporting it. This isn't about me, this is about the reality of the market forces. It's better to sell someone a cup of coffee every day than to sell them a home coffee maker once. If you don't like it, go take a basic marketing class.
2013-01-14 05:26:00 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: "It's not my fault, it's a disease."
Honestly, I agree with most of what is said. Drug addiction can be proven scientifically, but it is not a 'disease.' There is a lot to be said for how companies have a financial incentive to provide treatments instead of cures.
Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?


Right. That's why polio and smallpox still ravage the world, those damned researchers were paid off and forced to suppress their findings so that pharmaceutical companies could reap huge windfalls.
2013-01-14 05:23:47 AM
1 votes:
Derek saves the day!! What healers and doctors couldn't do in centuries, Derek did in a few words. Yay Derek!
2013-01-14 05:19:44 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: Securitywyrm: "It's not my fault, it's a disease."
Honestly, I agree with most of what is said. Drug addiction can be proven scientifically, but it is not a 'disease.' There is a lot to be said for how companies have a financial incentive to provide treatments instead of cures.
Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?

do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream. You know when fluoridation first began? Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.


Uh, log_jammin, log_jammin , listen... tell me, tell me, log_jammin . When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?
2013-01-14 05:14:25 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: Wow, you're right, you put something that's verifiable in a stream of garbage and it picks up some stink.


the more I think about this sentence the funnier it becomes. You know who actually uses the tactic that you just described? The alternative medicine industry. and one major thing in their list of garbage is "mainstream doctors suppress cures".

and you bought into it.
2013-01-14 05:12:11 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: Securitywyrm: "It's not my fault, it's a disease."
Honestly, I agree with most of what is said. Drug addiction can be proven scientifically, but it is not a 'disease.' There is a lot to be said for how companies have a financial incentive to provide treatments instead of cures.
Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?

do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream. You know when fluoridation first began? Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.


It's not a conspiracy, just business. A company has a legal obligation to seek the highest return on investment, which in the medical industry is found in treatment rather than cures. Are you saying that is factually wrong?
2013-01-14 05:10:23 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: something that's verifiable


what was verifiable?
2013-01-14 05:00:50 AM
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: I knew a guy named Derek who was a heroin addict. When he bought a pack of needles he always had a story for why he needed them. My favorite was when he said "I  need the needles for my bird. It's diabetic."


A heroin addict will always have a story, some way to avoid the truth, whether to avoid admitting it to you or to themselves.

/as a friend of a bipolar heroin addict, I'm getting a kick* out of this
//*in the nuts
2013-01-14 04:58:08 AM
1 votes:

Securitywyrm: Imagine if right now, you could either develop a pill that would in one treatment completely cure AIDS and be easy to manufacture... OR... a difficult to manufacture pill that delays the symptoms for as long as the pill is taken daily. Which would make you more money?


HAARP CONTROLS THE WEATHER AND OBAMA USED IT TO MAKE HURRICANE SANDY STEAL THE ELECTION FOR HIM!

THE BLOOD BANK IMPLANTS MIND CONTROL CHIPS!

MEDICAL SCIENCE WOULD RATHER LET PEOPLE SUFFER THEN CURE THEM!

/you're dumber then Derek
2013-01-14 04:52:33 AM
1 votes:
It's like watching a creationist spew out line after line of nonsense concerning evolution...
2013-01-14 04:14:13 AM
1 votes:
Why the hell did he toss in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and PTSD with addictions?
2013-01-14 04:12:09 AM
1 votes:
Lionel Mandrake:

When we introduce a chemical into your system the voices/rage/mood swings go away!!

Sorry, no. The rage & mood swings go away because I'm too sedated to do anything but drool & shiat myself; the voices stay, and they laugh at me because I drool & shiat myself.

But hey, what you read on a web site is infinitely more valuable than the testimony of one who's BT,DT; go right on thinking "OMG I'M AN EXPERT!1!"
2013-01-14 03:53:58 AM
1 votes:
In order for an addiction to qualify as an addiction it has to alter your brain chemistry to the point where your normal function without the activity or influence is impaired. Even psychological addictions can create that - and the byproduct of the influenced 'normal' state is itself basically a slow-reaction panic attack where you feel like you're dying.
2013-01-14 03:47:57 AM
1 votes:

Ed Grubermann: Depends on the addiction. Heroin? Meth? Cocaine? Yep. Chemically addictive. Porn? WoW? Not really. Any activity with a reward can cause a feedback loop that makes you want to do it again and again. But some chemicals are deeply addictive. The guy in TFA is an idiot.


Hence why people differentiate between physical addiction and psychological addition.
2013-01-14 03:34:15 AM
1 votes:

Oysterman: Personally, on the fence about addiction. Not sure what separates "I have a disease" from "this is an activity I enjoy; why do you want me to stop?".

But everything else there is giving off high theton levels.


Depends on the addiction. Heroin? Meth? Cocaine? Yep. Chemically addictive. Porn? WoW? Not really. Any activity with a reward can cause a feedback loop that makes you want to do it again and again. But some chemicals are deeply addictive. The guy in TFA is an idiot.
2013-01-14 03:29:43 AM
1 votes:
What a douche.

Someone toss him in the middle of an Indian buss while he is dressed like a girl. Let him get gang raped and then see if he gets PTSD.
2013-01-14 03:17:42 AM
1 votes:
Welcome to Stuff Nation. I think it's a cunning ploy to raise the status of print journalists - Stuff Nation invites every cretin who failed school cert economics to pontificate at length on a subject so frustrating that it's called the "dismal science."
433 [TotalFark]
2013-01-14 03:12:20 AM
1 votes:
Well, he can have his opinion, and I can disagree with him.  His citing studies of Vietnam vets that smoked (smoked) and came back hunky dory is very strange and ought to set off the alarm on this fellow if it hadn't already.  My uncle was stationed in a hospital in Virginia (IIRC) where he guarded a wing of addicts returning from Vietnam.  They had to go through withdrawals before being discharged.  He has told me some very unpleasant stories about it, and regrettably, I've picked up some of my own, as well.

I often hear sentiments like his bantied about, often by people who otherwise seem rational.  I suppose this is where I just differ from that mindset.  There is a lot I want to infer about the writer, but that wouldn't be appropriate.  I think that greater research that does not narrow towards his POV would help, but he may just dismiss that, as well.  He and people like him are most likely going to feel that way all through life barring a significant event that then creates change within them.

I am glad that the scientific community at large is in disagreement with this fellow, and that studies exploring as many avenues as can be discovered have been completed, are underway, will be in the future, and will be when they are discovered.

The best thing I could hope for this screwball is that he will become less narrow in thought, more considerate and thoughtful of things he does not understand, and that the Op Ed column remains a place for diverse opinions, while the big boys operating under the scientific method and under laboratory conditions when necessary stay beyond the reach of corruption and continue to make highly informed assertions, theories, and statements upon what is "fact."

Derek, this may the time for you to lean out a window and shout "I"m mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
THen go post about it online, or write a screed to the paper.
2013-01-14 03:11:18 AM
1 votes:
I note this guy says nothing about nicotine. I'd advise someone get him a few cans of copenhagen every day for a few years and then have him try to get off it.

/never dipped/chewed myself, but a bunch of my redneck friends have and apparently it's quite the chore to kick, to the point that even 5+ years after quitting, they still dream about the stuff
2013-01-14 02:50:46 AM
1 votes:
I had a feeling that the common sense in that article wouldn't be received well here.
2013-01-14 01:08:54 AM
1 votes:
What an asinine Derek might look like:

cdn.buzznet.com
2013-01-13 09:31:15 PM
1 votes:
I knew a guy named Derek who was a heroin addict. When he bought a pack of needles he always had a story for why he needed them. My favorite was when he said "I  need the needles for my bird. It's diabetic."
 
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