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(KATU)   The reason Windows 8 isn't catching on? Customers are "confused". I think the word they want is "baffled"   (katu.com) divider line 335
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4599 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-13 12:06:12 PM
I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be.  A touch screen PC is uncomfortable.
 
2013-01-13 12:14:25 PM
The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.
 
2013-01-13 12:16:29 PM
Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.
 
2013-01-13 12:18:48 PM
Microsoft makes shiatty products trying to force conumers to do what it wants them to do, gets absolutely murdered in the marketplace, reluctantly makes a good product with the features comsumers want, makes money, gets drunk and overconfident on the money, and starts the cycle again.
 
2013-01-13 12:19:41 PM
I just don't see the point of Windows 8. Windows 7 does everything I need it to, and NO case has been made to me as to what Windows 8 would get me.
 
2013-01-13 12:22:50 PM

LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


Uh huh. But I can get Linux FOR FREE.

You want your OS to be adopted? Stop charging for it.
 
2013-01-13 12:23:50 PM
My new laptop (no touchscreen) runs Windows 8. Mostly the new interface just gets in the way. Oddly, they also added a bunch of keyboard shortcuts to circumvent the new interface (WinKey+X is great), and sometimes those make up for it.
 
2013-01-13 12:25:50 PM

LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


Alternatively, what reason would anyone have to move from Win7 to 8? Outside of it being OEM on a new PC, I can't see any argument to support going to the new OS. It looks very different; most people see it and probably think the thing is going to be limited just like whatever they have on their phone or tablet. They're familiar with the traditional layout, it means PC to them.
 
2013-01-13 12:27:33 PM

LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


It is crap on top of crap.  I got to where I was just installing it on a virtual I broke it so many times trying to fix its look and feel to match a regualr users expectations.  They always said im just gonna return it or how much is windows 7.  Many regular older apps take a dump on it.  Stuff your never gonna get someone who only knows how to use it that one way is gonna put up with.  As far as I'm concerned its millenium  III.
 
2013-01-13 12:30:42 PM
LAPTOP MODE!
*backflip*
TABLET MODE!
*leg sweep*
TENT MODE!
*judo chop*
STAND MODE!
*monkey steals the peach*
 
2013-01-13 12:30:46 PM
Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.
 
2013-01-13 12:33:09 PM
Microsoft is desperately trying to gain market share down the road in mobile devices. The thinking is that "they'll get over it", and when it comes time to buy the next tablet or phone, they'll go with Windows because they're already used to the interface. The fact that they're risking pissing off an established customer base shows how desperate they are. It's a huge gamble, and it'll be interesting to see if it pays off.

In the meantime, if you have a parent who just got a Win8 computer, install ClassicShell. You're welcome.
 
2013-01-13 12:33:17 PM

LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.


Who do I have talk to so as I can get your job. I can shill better than you. You're too obvious.
 
2013-01-13 12:41:38 PM
BTW when is Microsoft gonna deliver on the full-audit-trailing file system they've been promising since a few OSes ago?
 
2013-01-13 12:55:57 PM
The word you were looking for,  subby,is "unimpressed".
 
2013-01-13 01:17:20 PM

LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.


Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.
 
2013-01-13 01:21:09 PM

oh_please: Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything.


"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything. That's just ONE thing to learn, and it works well. As far as adding or removing tiles, either just use the desktop like they're familiar with, or learn the one or two things necessary. It takes seconds.

I mean, there are a FEW things that are different, but it's not jarring because the core behind it all is the same.
 
2013-01-13 01:21:19 PM

gameshowhost: LAPTOP MODE!
*backflip*
TABLET MODE!
*leg sweep*
TENT MODE!
*judo chop*
STAND MODE!
*monkey steals the peach*


Brilliant!
 
2013-01-13 01:25:10 PM

LasersHurt: Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything.


So they've dumped the GUI in favor of the command line? Wow, I never thought I'd see the day.
 
2013-01-13 01:26:03 PM

theorellior: LasersHurt: Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything.

So they've dumped the GUI in favor of the command line? Wow, I never thought I'd see the day.


Have you ever used Windows 8? Nothing you said makes sense.
 
2013-01-13 01:26:31 PM

doglover: LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.

Uh huh. But I can get Linux FOR FREE.

You want your OS to be adopted? Stop charging for it.


You's trollin.
 
2013-01-13 01:32:03 PM

LasersHurt: Have you ever used Windows 8? Nothing you said makes sense.


I was snarking on the idea that in order to find anything on a windows-oriented graphic user interface your first recommendation was to start typing. In other words, a joke, hahahaha, laugh.
 
2013-01-13 01:32:08 PM
I'm confused as to why I would pay for another Windows OS so soon, if that helps.
 
2013-01-13 01:32:46 PM

LasersHurt: Just hit Start and start typing.


NOBODY LIKES THAT.
 
2013-01-13 01:33:27 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I'm confused as to why I would pay for another Windows OS so soon, if that helps.


If you have Windows 7? I wouldn't bother, unless you found a good sale or something.
 
2013-01-13 01:33:32 PM
I downloaded win 8 pro and it does take some getting used to. But the more I use it the more I actually like it. Also got the new windows phone which I really like. Took k me about a week coming from an android to get the gist of it. Basically give it some time and a little trial and error it works fine and I'm cool with it. \not a Microsoft paid shill
 
2013-01-13 01:34:27 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.


It's not even a decent interface for phones or tablets since it lacks folders. It just keeps vomiting more icons onto your start screen.

fark I hate it. The interface is such bullshiat. Whar is control panel? I had to go hunting for it. Why don't things like printers want to install when i plug them in the computer again? is it 1995?
-Why'd I have to look up how to shut down programs online? No tutorial or anything?
-Why does the farking thing have two control panels, one that's useful and one for tweaking only settings related to the tile interface?
-Why can't i copy a tile which was created when a program was installed and make it a desktop icon?
-Why can't I use the computer for longer than a week before getting an email from Microsoft saying I've disconnected my Facebook account from Windows 8 and it can't feed me my facebook data on the live tiles? I did that on farking purpose, because I don't want anyone walking by the machine casually getting to read my facebook stuff.
-Why did I have to integrate my LIVE/Zune account as my primary login to the OS?
-Why is it that the "Weather" app which shows me live weather data for my city, when clicked, takes 15 seconds to farking load? IT JUST SHOWS THE farkING WEATHER.
-Why does the video app go find all the videos on my computer including the ones I really don't want other people watching (hint, naked women) so that anyone randomly clicking on that gets access to my entire porn library?

fark it. I'm going back to Windows 7 Home Premium.
 
2013-01-13 01:36:58 PM
Revek: "I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be. A touch screen PC is uncomfortable."

We learned that lesson in the 1950s with the first GUIs using light guns. Granted, those things looked anything but "light"... But still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Ground_Environment

/What really ticks me off is that about 15 years ago I could have bought one of these screens for cheap.... Too big to haul home by bike. :(
 
2013-01-13 01:37:04 PM
LasersHurt
"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing.

Which is completely different from how the majority of people use Windows. You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure. With Windows 8, they now need to learn a new interface or, at the very least, need to learn how to switch between them as they will do so rather often, by accident, with no idea how they got there or how to get back. Hit start and start typing? Many older people don't know what the names of their apps are, they merely recognize the icon or where on the screen it should be. I know many middle aged people who are scared to learn keyboard shortcuts, and you expect them to remember all of their program and document names?
 
2013-01-13 01:37:42 PM

LasersHurt: theorellior: LasersHurt: Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything.

So they've dumped the GUI in favor of the command line? Wow, I never thought I'd see the day.

Have you ever used Windows 8? Nothing you said makes sense.


I think his point was that if you have to use keyboard shortcuts and text entry to get things accomplished quickly, then your GUI is hopelessly broken.
 
2013-01-13 01:38:14 PM

LasersHurt: oh_please: Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything.

"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything. That's just ONE thing to learn, and it works well. As far as adding or removing tiles, either just use the desktop like they're familiar with, or learn the one or two things necessary. It takes seconds.

I mean, there are a FEW things that are different, but it's not jarring because the core behind it all is the same.


For you, yes. I'm talking about the people who have worked with an XP unit for the last 6-10 years, it's finally died, and they go out and buy a new PC. There's a farkton of those people, and they'll have no idea where to begin. Remember when they removed the word "Start" from the Start button in Vista? Older folks went apeshiat.

There's no sense in making people jump through extra hoops in an effort to force your mobile OS down peoples throats. I've had 8 for a while, and sure, it's OK once you get used to it. But your average user will boot it up for the first time, see Mail, click on it thinking, "Ok, I'll set up my email", then is prompted to register with a Live account. "WTF? OK, don't want to do this...it won't leave? How do I get out of it? I DON'T KNOW!!!! NOTHING I'VE BEEN TAUGHT TO DO FOR ALL MY LIFE WORKS!"

Gamers, you know Games For Windows Live? This is the OS version of that.
 
2013-01-13 01:39:20 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"


In the lower left corner where it always was.

dumbimages.net

There's likely one on your keyboard, too.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

Alt-Tab, Alt-F4, Click Start, hit the start button on the keyboard...

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE and click the power button. Or touch the power button on the computer.

"I don't know how to find a file"

On the Start screen (see above on how to find it), start typing your search criteria. Click the Files icon on the right.

Or, from the Start screen, open Windows Explorer, and search the same way as before.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

Right-click, choose Uninstall.

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.


Let me know if you need any further help.
 
2013-01-13 01:39:28 PM

falkone32: LasersHurt
"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing.

Which is completely different from how the majority of people use Windows. You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure. With Windows 8, they now need to learn a new interface or, at the very least, need to learn how to switch between them as they will do so rather often, by accident, with no idea how they got there or how to get back. Hit start and start typing? Many older people don't know what the names of their apps are, they merely recognize the icon or where on the screen it should be. I know many middle aged people who are scared to learn keyboard shortcuts, and you expect them to remember all of their program and document names?


I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.
 
2013-01-13 01:40:25 PM
i can pretty much tell you why Windows Client UI group ignored all the apeshiat negative user feedback: User reaction to the ribbon UI in office.


that and i think they're just arrogant farktards based on my interaction with their PMs (my teams PMs were farking pissed at their attitude).

I work on server, don't blame me

(on a touch device the new UI is fine.)
 
2013-01-13 01:40:51 PM
Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.
 
2013-01-13 01:41:18 PM
Confused, all right.  Confused as to why they think people want touchscreen EVERYTHING.  I can't stand touch screens.  It'll never be as exact as a mouse, period.  And that's before we talk about how they are trying to push tablets, and giving the option to buy a keyboard to go with it.  Also known as... oh ya, A FARKING NOTEBOOK. (One with much less memory than what most people need, FWIW.)

I need a laptop.  I need one with a shiatload of memory.  I don't need touchscreen.  I don't need to do 90% of what you see people doing in Windows commercials, at least not in the way they do it.  My laptop is currently almost 2-1/2 years old.  If it dies before the next generation, I'm sure as shiat having my best friend (a computer geek who feels the exact same way about 8 as I do) re-image it in a crack-addict's heartbeat.
 
2013-01-13 01:41:31 PM

oh_please: There's no sense in making people jump through extra hoops in an effort to force your mobile OS down peoples throats. I've had 8 for a while, and sure, it's OK once you get used to it. But your average user will boot it up for the first time, see Mail, click on it thinking, "Ok, I'll set up my email", then is prompted to register with a Live account. "WTF? OK, don't want to do this...it won't leave? How do I get out of it? I DON'T KNOW!!!! NOTHING I'VE BEEN TAUGHT TO DO FOR ALL MY LIFE WORKS!"


During Christmas I set my mother-in-law up on a nice newish laptop with Windows 7 on it, I'm hoping it'll last her seven years like her XP desktop did, which will give Microsoft some time to rejigger their latest GUI snafu into something workable. I couldn't imagine trying to walk her through how to use Metro.
 
2013-01-13 01:42:03 PM

DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.


"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.
 
2013-01-13 01:45:02 PM

cmunic8r99: Let me know if you need any further help.


You don't need to help me, I'm just giving you the questions that EVERY SINGLE PERSON  has asked after using an earlier version of Windows. If everyone has to ask those questions to do simple tasks, it's wrong.
 
2013-01-13 01:47:22 PM

theorellior: oh_please: There's no sense in making people jump through extra hoops in an effort to force your mobile OS down peoples throats. I've had 8 for a while, and sure, it's OK once you get used to it. But your average user will boot it up for the first time, see Mail, click on it thinking, "Ok, I'll set up my email", then is prompted to register with a Live account. "WTF? OK, don't want to do this...it won't leave? How do I get out of it? I DON'T KNOW!!!! NOTHING I'VE BEEN TAUGHT TO DO FOR ALL MY LIFE WORKS!"

During Christmas I set my mother-in-law up on a nice newish laptop with Windows 7 on it, I'm hoping it'll last her seven years like her XP desktop did, which will give Microsoft some time to rejigger their latest GUI snafu into something workable. I couldn't imagine trying to walk her through how to use Metro.


It actually makes a ton more sense to those who have little to no experience with Windows already. I would agree that it makes some things harder to access, like the control panel or any of the more power user things, but it's a ton easier to do the basics.
 
2013-01-13 01:47:49 PM

LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.


*shrug* I doubt forcing change onto them will make Win8 a winning OS. The market determines what's a good product. I mean, I'm sure it's a great OS and all (I have no idea, I've played with it like 5 minutes), but if you're running a business and your new product has this much bad publicity this quickly, someone dun goofed.
 
2013-01-13 01:48:00 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"


Lower left corner. Where it always has been. It just vanishes when you aren't using it now. Kinda like if you had "hide the taskbar" enabled.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

What? No, seriously. What? Alt-F4, the corner X icon, and alt-tab are still there.

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.

"I don't know how to find a file"

Again, what? Explorer is still there, and they didn't hide it anywhere obscure. It's a button on the goddamn taskbar by default. Or you can search from the start screen by just typing the name, which is 1000 times faster than searching through folders.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.


Right mouse button, motherfarker. Do you have one?

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.

You haven't actually used W8, have you? Quit spreading FUD. You barely have to even use the Metro interface if you don't like it, 99% of stuff, including all advanced system tasks, are done through the desktop, and the 1% where you do interact with Metro, beats the fark out of the old start menu. Chasing nested menus around the screen drove me bugfark nuts, but if you want them that badly, there's classicshell.

And for the record, my mother, who is the poster child for computer illiteracy, bought a new windows 8 laptop and she was up and running in no time, knew exactly how to get along with it.
 
2013-01-13 01:48:57 PM
Does people who used Windows 7 and get paralyzed by Windows 8 also get paralyzed by jeans with a button up fly when their other pants used to have zippers? Or by velcro instead of shoelaces?
 
2013-01-13 01:51:08 PM
Ignore grammar fail above.
 
2013-01-13 01:51:12 PM
And you guys call the people here paid shills?

FTA: "Apple's a longtime pick of Motley Fool superinvestor David Gardner, and has soared 219.20% since he recommended it in January 2008"

Never mind their stock has been in a free fall for the past 3 months, shedding nearly a 1/3rd of its value. If Microsoft or Google's stock were doing the same, we'd hear from markets analysts that "the end is near!"
 
2013-01-13 01:51:12 PM

DrgnMech: LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

*shrug* I doubt forcing change onto them will make Win8 a winning OS. The market determines what's a good product. I mean, I'm sure it's a great OS and all (I have no idea, I've played with it like 5 minutes), but if you're running a business and your new product has this much bad publicity this quickly, someone dun goofed.


I honestly couldn't tell you when or where the bad press started. I think Microsoft intentionally or accidentally let people focus too much on the Start menu and Metro, and they thought the familiar OS was gone and this was all that was left (rather than this being a new element, but the rest remaining, even improved in many ways). It got out of hand and couldn't be reigned in.
 
2013-01-13 01:51:25 PM

Ghastly: The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.


Link
 
2013-01-13 01:51:29 PM

Zmog: Does people who used Windows 7 and get paralyzed by Windows 8 also get paralyzed by jeans with a button up fly when their other pants used to have zippers? Or by velcro instead of shoelaces?


When it comes to computers, YES.

That's why it'll be interesting to see if this gamble pays off.
 
2013-01-13 01:52:48 PM
I hear it's faster than 7, but I'm not much interested in getting it purely because I don't have a touchscreen and have no intention of getting one anytime soon.

I've heard I could disable metro, but I'd rather not have to deal with that (and any other issues that might come up for what appears to be a rather unpopular OS). So... for now I'll stick with Win7.
 
2013-01-13 01:53:30 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

Lower left corner. Where it always has been. It just vanishes when you aren't using it now. Kinda like if you had "hide the taskbar" enabled.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

What? No, seriously. What? Alt-F4, the corner X icon, and alt-tab are still there.

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.

"I don't know how to find a file"

Again, what? Explorer is still there, and they didn't hide it anywhere obscure. It's a button on the goddamn taskbar by default. Or you can search from the start screen by just typing the name, which is 1000 times faster than searching through folders.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Right mouse button, motherfarker. Do you have one?

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.

You haven't actually used W8, have you? Quit spreading FUD. You barely have to even use the Metro interface if you don't like it, 99% of stuff, including all advanced system tasks, are done through the desktop, and the 1% where you do interact with Metro, beats the fark out of the old start menu. Chasing nested menus around the screen drove me bugfark nuts, but if you want them that badly, there's classicshell.

And for the record, my mother, who is the poster child for computer illiteracy, bought a new windows 8 laptop and she was up and running in no time, knew exactly how to get along with it.


I'm just reporting from the field.
 
2013-01-13 01:54:06 PM

LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.


BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.
 
2013-01-13 01:54:52 PM

Revek: I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be.  A touch screen PC is uncomfortable.


Needs to be repositioned... I could see it working like a drafting board.
 
2013-01-13 01:55:02 PM

Zmog: Does people who used Windows 7 and get paralyzed by Windows 8 also get paralyzed by jeans with a button up fly when their other pants used to have zippers? Or by velcro instead of shoelaces?


I moved from button fly jeans to jeans with zippers, and the first time I zipped up my pants I got my foreskin caught in the zipper.
 
2013-01-13 01:55:27 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.

BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.


I have. You can't do it again?
 
2013-01-13 01:56:12 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.

BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.


Oh, HELL YES!
 
2013-01-13 01:58:21 PM
I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.
 
2013-01-13 01:58:49 PM

cmunic8r99: oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

In the lower left corner where it always was.

[dumbimages.net image 542x165]

There's likely one on your keyboard, too.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

Alt-Tab, Alt-F4, Click Start, hit the start button on the keyboard...

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE and click the power button. Or touch the power button on the computer.

"I don't know how to find a file"

On the Start screen (see above on how to find it), start typing your search criteria. Click the Files icon on the right.

Or, from the Start screen, open Windows Explorer, and search the same way as before.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

Right-click, choose Uninstall.

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.

Let me know if you need any further help.


So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.
 
2013-01-13 01:59:46 PM

LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.


And just because something is new, doesn't mean it's good. There's nothing in Win8 that improves the user experience.
 
2013-01-13 01:59:49 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.


*Sigh* For the class of users for whom "out of sight, out of mind" is a very real phenomenon, this is rocket surgery.

My MIL wants to know how to get to Home Shopping Network. She doesn't know Firefox from IE from Chrome. She doesn't want to. It would no more occur to her to go to a hidden Start button in the corner of her screen and start typing "firefox" in order to get to the Home Shopping Network than it would to run out in the middle of the street and scream "I WANT TO ORDER A NICE BLOUSE" into thin air.
 
2013-01-13 02:01:54 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


This. I've never understood the concept of taking a graphic user interface, which is visual by its very nature, and making things invisible by default.
 
2013-01-13 02:02:16 PM

Tyrone Slothrop: LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

And just because something is new, doesn't mean it's good. There's nothing in Win8 that improves the user experience.


I find some things very useful, but like I said upthread, I don't necessarily recommend upgrading from Windows 7 if you've got a good thing going.
 
2013-01-13 02:03:04 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


LasersHurt and  Chim completely missed the point here. Thanks for clarifying.
 
2013-01-13 02:05:23 PM

oh_please: Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.

LasersHurt and  Chim completely missed the point here. Thanks for clarifying.


I don't see how they're "normally in the UI" and now "hidden" if you can hit ONE button, and type out the thing you want. The old way took a few clicks, or you could also search for it. What would make it easier for you?
 
2013-01-13 02:07:01 PM

MrSteve007: And you guys call the people here paid shills?

FTA: "Apple's a longtime pick of Motley Fool superinvestor David Gardner, and has soared 219.20% since he recommended it in January 2008"

Never mind their stock has been in a free fall for the past 3 months, shedding nearly a 1/3rd of its value. If Microsoft or Google's stock were doing the same, we'd hear from markets analysts that "the end is near!"


What news sites are you reading? Every time Apple stock goes down a buck, some douche starts writing their obituary.
 
2013-01-13 02:09:36 PM

oh_please: cmunic8r99: Let me know if you need any further help.

You don't need to help me, I'm just giving you the questions that EVERY SINGLE PERSON  has asked after using an earlier version of Windows. If everyone has to ask those questions to do simple tasks, it's wrong.


When they changed the UI from Windows XP to the Vista/7 UI, I got similar complaints. They figured it out or asked for help.

When they introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, people biatched about it, too. Yet, I don't think it slowed adoption much, and the interface has stuck around for a while.

Frankly, I'm glad MS put that UI in Windows 8. OEMs weren't going to put touchscreens on laptops & displays unless there was a UI available that's made for it. Now that there is, you see a ton more touchscreens. And I think that's a good thing.
 
2013-01-13 02:10:20 PM

LasersHurt: I don't see how they're "normally in the UI" and now "hidden" if you can hit ONE button, and type out the thing you want. The old way took a few clicks, or you could also search for it. What would make it easier for you?


Holy shiat, you're dense.

falkone32: LasersHurt
"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing.

Which is completely different from how the majority of people use Windows. You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure. With Windows 8, they now need to learn a new interface or, at the very least, need to learn how to switch between them as they will do so rather often, by accident, with no idea how they got there or how to get back. Hit start and start typing? Many older people don't know what the names of their apps are, they merely recognize the icon or where on the screen it should be. I know many middle aged people who are scared to learn keyboard shortcuts, and you expect them to remember all of their program and document names?


Read that again.
 
2013-01-13 02:11:35 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


I didn't say anything about intuitive. In fact - intuitive or not - most of the solutions I put in that post work in Windows 7.
 
2013-01-13 02:16:27 PM
Windows 7 was quite literally the easiest OS upgrade for my users that I've ever done. Of 120+ users, I received pushback from exactly one older user, and she got used to it after the first day.

I don't see that happening with Windows 8. I'm sticking with 7 until they work out the bugs come Windows 9 or whatever they call it.
 
2013-01-13 02:17:49 PM

theorellior: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.

*Sigh* For the class of users for whom "out of sight, out of mind" is a very real phenomenon, this is rocket surgery.

My MIL wants to know how to get to Home Shopping Network. She doesn't know Firefox from IE from Chrome. She doesn't want to. It would no more occur to her to go to a hidden Start button in the corner of her screen and start typing "firefox" in order to get to the Home Shopping Network than it would to run out in the middle of the street and scream "I WANT TO ORDER A NICE BLOUSE" into thin air.


To be fair, with the new Start Screen you can just pin a tile with the HSN homepage, so she can just click on the tile and go without having to even find the browser. Despite some of the other big issues with the OS, you really can use the tiles to easily set it up for non-technical users.
 
2013-01-13 02:20:32 PM

LasersHurt: For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


Did you have to install one of the third party apps to get rid of the "Metro" start screen, and if so what happens when you press the Windows key on your keyboard? How do you multitask between a legacy app and a Metro app? How do you have three windows open and visible at the same time in Metro for multitasking? Doesn't it bug you that it's harder to get to any configuration/control panel, or that when you search for something Metro takes the whole screen instead of the Windows 7 1/8 screen start menu search area?

Some of us just can't be as productive on Windows 8 as Windows 7. And from a nonfunctional point of view, it was stupid to get rid of Aero on the Legacy/Desktop mode. Why step backwards?
 
2013-01-13 02:22:30 PM

Ivandrago: I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.


This.

THIS.

THIS!!!
 
2013-01-13 02:26:12 PM
I have been a computer user since the Commodore Pet days. Over the years I have relearned many things to keep up with operating system improvements.  There are still things that I think are easier to do from DOS than Windows, but such is life.

In general, I don't mind relearning things when there is some motivation.

But this is where I think Microsoft is falling down. There seems to be a lot of change just for the sake of making change. I've played around with Windows8 a little bit, and while things are "different", it doesn't strike me as impossible to learn.

The question is why. I honestly don't see what Windows8 does for me to pay be back for relearning stuff I can already do in my sleep. FWIW, I think most Microsoft Office programs suffer from the same ailment.
 
2013-01-13 02:26:43 PM
Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening). Its ease of use is simply a marketing lie if you want to do anything even borderline complex.
 
2013-01-13 02:27:18 PM

Revek: I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be.  A touch screen PC is uncomfortable.


I bought a new PC last week with Windows 8, but it's most definitely not a touch screen. There were ones for sale like that, but after making the leap from Windows XP (former PC) to Windows 8, and having to learn a new system, I wanted a keyboard & mouse.
 
2013-01-13 02:28:21 PM

Gig103: LasersHurt: For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.

Did you have to install one of the third party apps to get rid of the "Metro" start screen, and if so what happens when you press the Windows key on your keyboard? How do you multitask between a legacy app and a Metro app? How do you have three windows open and visible at the same time in Metro for multitasking? Doesn't it bug you that it's harder to get to any configuration/control panel, or that when you search for something Metro takes the whole screen instead of the Windows 7 1/8 screen start menu search area?

Some of us just can't be as productive on Windows 8 as Windows 7. And from a nonfunctional point of view, it was stupid to get rid of Aero on the Legacy/Desktop mode. Why step backwards?


Those are all subjective opinions (well, one of them is just "why doesn't metro allow you to have three metro apps at once" and that's a feature question that I don't have an answer for, i'd like to be able to pin multiple metro apps).

Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.
 
2013-01-13 02:31:31 PM

falkone32: You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure.


Dear god, this.

I used to run the help desk for a university research group (maybe 200 employees with somewhat more computers). While the biologists weren't computer experts they were certainly competent. The administrative staff, particularly one secretary, was pretty bad.

CSB 1: She didn't generalize anything, ever. As an example, an average person might say "I want to make this text bold. I'll select the text and...hmm...well, bolding is a type of formatting, so maybe the 'Format' menu has what I'm looking for? Ah, yes! There it is." If they later needed to italicize something they'd already have the "text formatting = Format menu" in their mind and could jump there right away without needing to think too much. More advanced users will get the keyboard shortcuts quickly.

This secretary didn't do that at all. She remembered where everything was not by where in the window something is (e.g. in what menu) but where physically on the screen it was. Her selecting things was more like a robot: "Move to coordinates [x,y], click mouse, move to [x1,y1], click mouse, move to [x2,y2], click mouse. Done." She had different mental instructions for every operation she needed to do. If the window was moved slightly out of its normal position then she'd freak the hell out because everything was broken. We'd get a flurry of "CRITICAL" trouble tickets saying that Word had "crashed" or she'd been "hacked" and nothing was working as it should.

Switching her from Office 2007 to Office 2010 (the university wanted everyone to upgrade) was hellacious.

CSB 2: Her administrative group (about 5 people) decided that they'd switch to Google's offerings but instead of setting up Google Apps they each wanted their own, separate Google Accounts and they'd deal with the sharing themselves. Fine, whatever. We sent a guy over there and got everything set up. The secretary wrote down all the directions of creating a Google account step-by-step in a notebook -- "just in case", she said. Fine. The tech transferred all of her calendar stuff from Outlook to Google Calendar, set up sharing with the other staff, and confirmed everything was working normally. Just for her own records she wrote down the username and password to the account (her office is physically locked when she's not around, so it's not a security risk) in her notebook as well. She said it was a bit of a change but no big deal. Cool.

About two weeks later the Google login cookie expired (or she cleared her cookies, I don't remember exactly) and she was prompted to log into the account. Even though people have been logging into accounts since the dawn of computers this was so totally unexpected for her that she didn't know what to do. So, she went to her notebook and followed the directions to create a new account then was thrown for a loop when the "error, account already in use" warning came up. Six "CRITICAL" tickets were submitted, all claiming her account had been hacked and everything was broken. By the time our tech got over there she had created some new account ("because the old one was hacked!") and was manually entering the next year's worth of calendar entries.

I understand that some people are just not "computer people" just like I'm not a "music person". I don't expect everyone to be a "car person", but I do expect that car owners know how to put in gasoline, know that their oil needs to get changed at intervals (even if that just means "take it to a mechanic"), and know basic stuff like how to change a tire, check the oil level, or check the air pressure in the tires. I expect computer users to have at least some basic semblance about how to use a computer, like how to log into an account when the system prompts you.

*sighs*
 
2013-01-13 02:31:58 PM
The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.

Most online shops still offer Windows 7 as an option. Hubby just bought a computer over X-mas with it on.


"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

People cry so much when there is change because they have to stop what they are working on, learn the new system and then figure out what of their past work needs to be changed or thrown out and rewritten. They then need to make a mental note to do things the new way. They will forget the new way due to force of habit and get themselves messed up for a few months afterwards. While this is acceptable if the change is necessary, having to go through this because Microsoft wants to put out a new version is unacceptable. Hint to software developers: Your software is not the most important thing in my day. In fact I like it best when I don't have to think about it at all. You make me take time from my priorities to have to deal with you and I am less likely to use your product in the future.
 
2013-01-13 02:32:36 PM
OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.
 
2013-01-13 02:33:24 PM

NotARocketScientist: The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.

Most online shops still offer Windows 7 as an option. Hubby just bought a computer over X-mas with it on.


"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

People cry so much when there is change because they have to stop what they are working on, learn the new system and then figure out what of their past work needs to be changed or thrown out and rewritten. They then need to make a mental note to do things the new way. They will forget the new way due to force of habit and get themselves messed up for a few months afterwards. While this is acceptable if the change is necessary, having to go through this because Microsoft wants to put out a new version is unacceptable. Hint to software developers: Your software is not the most important thing in my day. In fact I like it best when I don't have to think about it at all. You make me take time from my priorities to have to deal with you and I am less likely to use your product in the future.


I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."
 
2013-01-13 02:35:25 PM

Ivandrago: I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.


TrueCrypt + portable browser on TrueCrypt volume = no worries.

Add a hardware token like this one and you don't need to worry about someone gaining access by guessing the password.

/works for non-porn things too
//has way too many smartcards and tokens lying around the house
 
2013-01-13 02:38:11 PM
I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

It is more that change is a pain in the but to users. Change ONLY when necessary and then only change what is necessary.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:23 PM

Bungles: Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening). Its ease of use is simply a marketing lie if you want to do anything even borderline complex.


This is an official Windows 8 Sucks(SM) thread. That troll is only authorized for Apple and Linux threads.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:26 PM

LasersHurt: Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.


That statement alone indicates a failure in the design of Windows 8. If everyone using the OS goes to the desktop to "skip all this Metro shait" then what the heck is the point? Metro is the big deal for 8. Look at the Windows 8 home page. New Metro interface! Download Windows apps! If no one is doing such things, then it is a critical failure in OS redesign.

Me personally, I am going to ride out Windows 7 until support is dropped. I have Windows 8 in a VM to support any poor souls that venture that direction, but realistically none of the corporations I have worked with even have a beta imitative for 8 yet.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:53 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."


Or, you know, you could stick with the real complaint instead of making things up...

If you're going to change things, change them for the better, don't change them just to change them.

I can't comment on it from any perspective but as a technical user who uses it to manage Server installations, but from that perspective, it's complete dildoes and I would love to kick the head of interface design straight on in the nuts.

I manage servers. I need to type a lot. I need to move between many different applications quickly. The Start menu was great for that because I could just organize them in nice little nested, organized trees.

I can't comment on the home versions, just Server and Professional. As a work OS, it's easily the worst OS I've ever seen. I'm actually working on migrating a large number of servers off of Windows because it's such complete garbage.

Sadly, I can't move all of them, so I'm stuck with the Windows "Touch Yourself" interface for the foreseeable future.

/ 2008 R2 was apparently as good as Windows is going to get....
 
2013-01-13 02:40:21 PM

cmunic8r99: When they introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, people biatched about it, too. Yet, I don't think it slowed adoption much, and the interface has stuck around for a while.


The ribbon is awful. Can anyone explain to me why they removed the double-click feature for bringing up object properties? And then even when you open up the object properties they broke everything down into separate tabs. Everything takes 2-3 times as long, particularly since I have to translate every pictograph into english. That "size and position" button? Just kidding. It's just size. You have to click an extra button to get to position. Sure, there's plenty of white space to include both, but that would be too easy.

And I am always pausing to figure out which little GIF houses the feature I used to be able to access with a single key combination or at most two clicks. I'll take drop-down menus any day with a shortcut bar, but why can't they at least let us remove all the pictographs from the ribbon? They waste so much space and distract from finding what I actually want.

There were plenty of improvements from 2003 to 2007/2010, but that ribbon is the worst possible change for a user who does anything but make middle school quality presentations.
 
2013-01-13 02:40:51 PM
I have a new win8 computer that is touchscreen and really like it. Also the more I use it the more comfortable I am with it. I think that Windows is going to be like this for a while. kind of like the start of the start button days went until 7.

At first people were like, what's this button for? I have my icons etc. Then they got used to it and didn't miss the icons. Over time people will get used to the start screen. in the meantime people just need to learn as they go.
 
2013-01-13 02:41:48 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.


I'm 60 years old and it took me less than 2 days to figure out Windows 8. Seriously, it's not that difficult. Granted it's a whole lot different than the Windows XP I've been using for years, but I figured things out fairly quickly.
 
2013-01-13 02:43:52 PM

Bungles: Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening).


I just don't get comments like this. C'mon, man, use your noggin. I've used Macs from 7.5 on and Windows from 3.11 on. They're not really that different. I'm more comfortable with the interface design choices for Macs, but they're not all that different.
 
2013-01-13 02:46:13 PM

Sarsin: LasersHurt: Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.

That statement alone indicates a failure in the design of Windows 8.


What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.


Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

Or, you know, you could stick with the real complaint instead of making things up...

If you're going to change things, change them for the better, don't change them just to change them.


I agree, but you can't just dismiss everything with that. Substantively, what is so bad, other than it being different?


I can't comment on it from any perspective but as a technical user who uses it to manage Server installations, but from that perspective, it's complete dildoes and I would love to kick the head of interface design straight on in the nuts.

I manage servers. I need to type a lot. I need to move between many different applications quickly. The Start menu was great for that because I could just organize them in nice little nested, organized trees.

I can't comment on the home versions, just Server and Professional. As a work OS, it's easily the worst OS I've ever seen. I'm actually working on migrating a large number of servers off of Windows because it's such complete garbage.


I use Pro, and I have no issues. I have only briefly played with Server, and I do feel like the interface is a little out of place there, but otherwise it seemed fine. I like to judge the OS based on its stability and function, and from that standpoint I absolutely cannot agree with "worst OS I've ever seen." That's got to be hyperbole, right?
 
2013-01-13 02:47:47 PM

WxAxGxS: There were plenty of improvements from 2003 to 2007/2010, but that ribbon is the worst possible change for a user who does anything but make middle school quality presentations.


I upgraded to the new office a couple years ago (at least 4), and I STILL can't find anything on the farking ribbon. I use office every single day. its awful.
 
2013-01-13 02:48:47 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows.


Except that this change isn't necessary, it's only being done to push their mobile products.

They're hoping that consumers will get used to it, then buy a Windows tablet or phone later. Hell, I can't blame them, but they're rolling the dice here.
 
2013-01-13 02:51:10 PM

LasersHurt: What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.


If the main selling point of Windows 8 is Metro, then everyone should want to use Metro. You shouldn't need to use it the way you were before the upgrade because it defeats the point.
 
2013-01-13 02:51:30 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows.

Except that this change isn't necessary, it's only being done to push their mobile products.

They're hoping that consumers will get used to it, then buy a Windows tablet or phone later. Hell, I can't blame them, but they're rolling the dice here.


Almost every ultrabook or similar product this year will be touch compatible, and the number of convertibles being made is on the rise. That might not be indicative of anything, but it's nice to have the assets in place now, rather than playing catch-up later. We're also seeing the rise of Surface Pro units, that is Full Windows on a tablet, and I've heard it's a pleasant experience.

Maybe it will work, maybe it will wont, but based on what I saw from CES in terms of product lines coming up, there's going to be a lot of Windows Touching coming and they're already set to go.
 
2013-01-13 02:53:26 PM

Sarsin: LasersHurt: What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.

If the main selling point of Windows 8 is Metro, then everyone should want to use Metro. You shouldn't need to use it the way you were before the upgrade because it defeats the point.


The main selling point should NOT be Metro, and the fact that people think it is is a failing on Microsoft's part, I think. For a desktop user, Metro isn't hugely important (I do like some features, like snapping an app on the side of the screen). My argument about Windows 8 has always been "it's not terrible, like the general mood seems to say. It's a good OS, overall, in the key OS areas."
 
2013-01-13 02:54:23 PM

LasersHurt: That's got to be hyperbole, right?


Only because I forgot about Windows for Workgroups until just now.

Otherwise, no. I'd rather use Windows 2000. I really did not expect to hate 8 like I do. I expected I'd biatch about it like I did with 7, get used to it and just occasionally grouse about some of the things I still don't like, but I honestly have grown to absolutely hate Windows 8 and the more I use it the more I loathe having to switch to it. I did not realize until it was gone the extent to which I used the Start menu and you just cannot easily duplicate that loss with the metro start menu. The metro start menu is, literally, completely useless.

That said, Powershell 3.0 is pretty slick and some of the changes it brings finally makes Windows scripting tolerable for the first time in history but I don't think it makes up for the "Touch My Balls" feature that 8/2012 force on you.
 
2013-01-13 02:55:20 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: That's got to be hyperbole, right?

Only because I forgot about Windows for Workgroups until just now.

Otherwise, no. I'd rather use Windows 2000. I really did not expect to hate 8 like I do. I expected I'd biatch about it like I did with 7, get used to it and just occasionally grouse about some of the things I still don't like, but I honestly have grown to absolutely hate Windows 8 and the more I use it the more I loathe having to switch to it. I did not realize until it was gone the extent to which I used the Start menu and you just cannot easily duplicate that loss with the metro start menu. The metro start menu is, literally, completely useless.

That said, Powershell 3.0 is pretty slick and some of the changes it brings finally makes Windows scripting tolerable for the first time in history but I don't think it makes up for the "Touch My Balls" feature that 8/2012 force on you.


Have you considered icons on the desktop? No clicks at all for all of your little icons.
 
2013-01-13 02:58:25 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."


There's change, and there's unnecessary change. Sure make things faster, make things more intuitive. Don't change what doesn't need it. Garbage like Aero or Metro is unnecessary and change just for change's sake and to make things prettier, and in Aero's case (at least initially) waste computer resources to do so. I can't speak for Metro's resource use since I haven't bothered testing Windows 8 yet. Personally I disabled the vast majority of Aero's features in 7, and I know plenty of other moderately advanced computer users who also do so. A number of those same people say 8 is much the same with Metro, disable a number of the features and change the settings and it's not that bad. So in cases like that, why make those changes at all if it takes disabling them to make the computer perform in a way the user is comfortable with? The software should be adapted to people, not people adapting to the software.
 
2013-01-13 03:00:29 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

There's change, and there's unnecessary change. Sure make things faster, make things more intuitive. Don't change what doesn't need it. Garbage like Aero or Metro is unnecessary and change just for change's sake and to make things prettier, and in Aero's case (at least initially) waste computer resources to do so. I can't speak for Metro's resource use since I haven't bothered testing Windows 8 yet. Personally I disabled the vast majority of Aero's features in 7, and I know plenty of other moderately advanced computer users who also do so. A number of those same people say 8 is much the same with Metro, disable a number of the features and change the settings and it's not that bad. So in cases like that, why make those changes at all if it takes disabling them to make the computer perform in a way the user is comfortable with? The software should be adapted to people, not people adapting to the software.


But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?

I will agree that a simple option to disable it and use a Start Menu would have been easy to make, and very popular with users who don't like change. I can't for the life of me imagine why they were such sticklers about not adding such an option.
 
2013-01-13 03:04:12 PM

LasersHurt: Have you considered icons on the desktop? No clicks at all for all of your little icons.


If that were an equivalent I could do it with the start menu using groups. It's the loss of the nesting structure that's a problem. One example would be my PBX shortcut. On the Windows start menu I could highlight the icon and it would display a list of my recent config files that I loaded (like the Steam shortcut does with games, as an example). To duplicate that, I'd have to create four different PBX shortcuts, one for each file.

Regardless, like many, many other admins, I've simply learned a shiatton of the windows keyboard shortcuts I never used before and .msc files so now I just use the keyboard for everything. That and the pseudo-quicklaunch feature (which the assholes disabled by default to boot for no apparent reason...).

Which brings us back to the point: don't change shiat unless you're making it better. It seems to me that if you have to abandon the pointing device to remain productive, maybe your touch interface isn't really that great. Windows Vista/7 was a step backwards in interface design. 8 pushes it off the damn cliff.
What it comes down to is that pushing a consumer-oriented design philosophy into a Server OS and a Professional OS is just stupid.

/ no, I will not buy one of your phones to manage my datacenter, Microsoft...
 
2013-01-13 03:06:06 PM
Windows 8 is fine, I love it actually. What I farking hate is how many software developers are telling end users to get bent and that they aren't supporting Windows 8 and you're an asshole for installing it.
 
2013-01-13 03:08:14 PM

LasersHurt: But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?


Is that really hard? Productivity is a measurable thing.
 
2013-01-13 03:09:49 PM

theorellior: Bungles: Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening).

I just don't get comments like this. C'mon, man, use your noggin. I've used Macs from 7.5 on and Windows from 3.11 on. They're not really that different. I'm more comfortable with the interface design choices for Macs, but they're not all that different.



It's just different enough to infuriate. When a Mac goes wrong (be it some driver has clearly gone loopy, or some application has gone tits up) I'm totally lost, like my grandma on any computer. When Windows goes wrong, I can dig myself out of the hole pretty easily.
 
2013-01-13 03:10:41 PM

LasersHurt: But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?


I don't know, ask the people who deemed it necessary and are now watching their OS flounder in the market. It's their job to figure it out, not mine.

Did anybody ask for this? Did they do testing that determined this design change improved customer experience?

When it comes down to it, it's all about the benjamins, and, by that metric, it seems those of us poo-pooing their design are the ones who are right. Unless Windows 8 enjoys a sudden and unexpected surge in sales it sure seems like people either outright hate it or, at least, don't see any value in it.

styckx: Windows 8 is fine, I love it actually. What I farking hate is how many software developers are telling end users to get bent and that they aren't supporting Windows 8 and you're an asshole for installing it.


Meh. That happens with every new release. The only real way to avoid that nonsense, especially with some hardware vendors and their drivers (I'm glaring at you HP) is to wait until the first service pack is released and the software and hardware vendors have no real choice anymore but to support it.

Of course, as slow as Windows 8 is selling, maybe that isn't going to happen this time....
 
2013-01-13 03:10:49 PM

I Like Bread: LasersHurt: But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?

Is that really hard? Productivity is a measurable thing.


And nobody has proven that Windows 8 makes you less productive. Or more productive. I don't think anyone's done a study.
 
2013-01-13 03:11:32 PM

angrymacface: OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.


Welcome to the real world, Ric Romero.

All kidding aside, the average PC user isn't the average Fark PC user. Nobody likes change just for the sake of it.
 
2013-01-13 03:11:43 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Did they do testing that determined this design change improved customer experience?


... no, nobody at Microsoft tested this at all.
 
2013-01-13 03:12:26 PM
Windows 8 is here for 4 or 5 years.

Computers will doing nothing but become more touchscreeny in the next 5 years. It's a decision Microsoft had to make.

It's a little like Apple ditching the cd-drive. Looked a bit barmy for the first year, then it was clearly to right design choice to have made.
 
2013-01-13 03:19:44 PM

Bungles: Computers will doing nothing but become more touchscreeny in the next 5 years. It's a decision Microsoft had to make.


People have been saying that for fifteen years and it hasn't happened, not on the desktop. People will continue to move to phones and tablets, I'm sure, but there's a reason other vendors like Apple don't have one unified interface for their traditional and handheld platforms: it's stupid. People who are using a computer at desk aren't usually playing angry birds, they're typing memos and things like that. And, I'm sorry, but the mouse is much easier to use than a touchscreen at a desk. Constantly reaching up and over the edge of the desk to manipulate the interface between typing is annoying and slow. Think about highlighting text, for example, to put an underline on it. Which is easier, click and hold the mouse right next to your keyboard and go right back to typing or fumble with a multitouch screen trying to get your selection right?

I just do not understand the point... you don't use a desktop like a tablet. It makes no sense to have the same interface on both. Which is why nobody else does it.

LasersHurt: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Did they do testing that determined this design change improved customer experience?

... no, nobody at Microsoft tested this at all.


You asked, not me. I would assume if you want to know where the value in the change lies Microsoft would be the entity to ask, not us. AFAIK Microsoft has never really offered any clear explanation for why they did this beyond their suggestions that they think it will make it easier for people to work across traditional and handheld devices.
 
2013-01-13 03:21:19 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Bungles: Computers will doing nothing but become more touchscreeny in the next 5 years. It's a decision Microsoft had to make.

People have been saying that for fifteen years and it hasn't happened, not on the desktop. People will continue to move to phones and tablets, I'm sure, but there's a reason other vendors like Apple don't have one unified interface for their traditional and handheld platforms: it's stupid. People who are using a computer at desk aren't usually playing angry birds, they're typing memos and things like that. And, I'm sorry, but the mouse is much easier to use than a touchscreen at a desk. Constantly reaching up and over the edge of the desk to manipulate the interface between typing is annoying and slow. Think about highlighting text, for example, to put an underline on it. Which is easier, click and hold the mouse right next to your keyboard and go right back to typing or fumble with a multitouch screen trying to get your selection right?

I just do not understand the point... you don't use a desktop like a tablet. It makes no sense to have the same interface on both. Which is why nobody else does it.

LasersHurt: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Did they do testing that determined this design change improved customer experience?

... no, nobody at Microsoft tested this at all.

You asked, not me. I would assume if you want to know where the value in the change lies Microsoft would be the entity to ask, not us. AFAIK Microsoft has never really offered any clear explanation for why they did this beyond their suggestions that they think it will make it easier for people to work across traditional and handheld devices.


Laptops where the screen detaches to become a tablet became mainstream this year. Add 5 years, that will be common everywhere.
 
2013-01-13 03:22:26 PM

Bungles: Laptops where the screen detaches to become a tablet became mainstream this year. Add 5 years, that will be common everywhere.


See this article from CNet.
 
2013-01-13 03:28:00 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Bungles: Computers will doing nothing but become more touchscreeny in the next 5 years. It's a decision Microsoft had to make.

People have been saying that for fifteen years and it hasn't happened, not on the desktop. People will continue to move to phones and tablets, I'm sure, but there's a reason other vendors like Apple don't have one unified interface for their traditional and handheld platforms: it's stupid. People who are using a computer at desk aren't usually playing angry birds, they're typing memos and things like that. And, I'm sorry, but the mouse is much easier to use than a touchscreen at a desk. Constantly reaching up and over the edge of the desk to manipulate the interface between typing is annoying and slow. Think about highlighting text, for example, to put an underline on it. Which is easier, click and hold the mouse right next to your keyboard and go right back to typing or fumble with a multitouch screen trying to get your selection right?

I just do not understand the point... you don't use a desktop like a tablet. It makes no sense to have the same interface on both. Which is why nobody else does it.

LasersHurt: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Did they do testing that determined this design change improved customer experience?

... no, nobody at Microsoft tested this at all.

You asked, not me. I would assume if you want to know where the value in the change lies Microsoft would be the entity to ask, not us. AFAIK Microsoft has never really offered any clear explanation for why they did this beyond their suggestions that they think it will make it easier for people to work across traditional and handheld devices.


But that is the thing, tablets and phones will be getting more and more powerful and popular. Desktops will never disappear entirely but they will for a lot of people. To me this move makes sense if you view it in the realm of total object connectivity. The same programs will run on anything in the future. So why not combine everything into one os that will eventually be the only thing you need for everything? It may not be perfect now but I can totally see it in the next 5 years. At least to me that is where they seem to be trying to take windows.
 
2013-01-13 03:30:58 PM
It's sad that a lot of people listen to trash talk of windows 8 without checking the sources of their information, most of which comes from sources owned or paid for by competitors.

Windows 8 is intended to pave the way for tablets becoming as powerful as laptops and eventually desktops in the near future. It is a little disconcerting seeing all those icons all over the Start Screen, but after you realize what is going on there is really little difference between it and windows 8. It also runs lighter than Windows 7 and has lower minimum requirements to run.

There are 4 important things to realize when switching to windows 8:
1) You are not required to have a touch screen! Though if you are using a laptop and like to use the touch pad, you can use the touch pad as if it was the screen for navigation.
2) The Start Button from previous incarnations of windows is gone and has been replaced with a Start Screen. All the programs you used to see in the Button are now on the Start Screen.
3) The Shutdown button has been moved to the Charms.
4) Click on your Desktop icon to get to the desktop. You will see little to no difference here from previous versions, other than the missing Start Button. You can freely drown it in links like most people do anyway and never need to use the Start Screen.

What I don't like about windows 8:
-The App version of Internet Explorer sucks monkey snot. Good thing I tend to use Firefox or Chrome.
-It requires you to have a Microsoft email account and to log into the computer with it in order to access the Skydrive features. It's a peeve of mine when anything requires you to log in using an Email account as those are easily found and then all hackers need is to guess/hack your password. Much better when they have to guess your login name as well.
-Converting to Windows 8 from an older version removes the icons from pre-Office 2010 documents. It's as if they are trying to convince you to convert to 2010... But easily fixable if you re-install your older version.
-One of the patches sent it into an infinite patching loop on reboot. Good thing the built-in imaging worked great so I could restore.

In summary, the changes compared to Windows 7 are insignificant, though if you never used 7 in the 1st place, whatever fears you had about going to Windows 7 are probably still in play. If you are a Mac user, please don't lie to people in an attempt to scare them. Those of us who actually know how to fix computers and try to genuinely help others with them know that 99.9% of Max users would find a way to electrocute themselves if they tried to dust out the inside of a computer.
 
2013-01-13 03:33:40 PM

doglover: LasersHurt: Just hit Start and start typing.

NOBODY LIKES THAT.


You are insane. Me hitting the windows key and typing a program is VASTLY faster than using a mouse through nested menus. As a software developer with significantly above average computer literacy, I honestly can't fathom how people could want to use the nested start menu system instead of typing.
 
2013-01-13 03:36:40 PM

LasersHurt: Sarsin: LasersHurt: Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.

That statement alone indicates a failure in the design of Windows 8.

What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.


Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

Or, you know, you could stick with the real complaint instead of making things up...

If you're going to change things, change them for the better, don't change them just to change them.

I agree, but you can't just dismiss everything with that. Substantively, what is so bad, other than it being different?


I can't comment on it from any perspective but as a technical user who uses it to manage Server installations, but from that perspective, it's complete dildoes and I would love to kick the head of interface design straight on in the nuts.

I manage servers. I need to type a lot. I need to move between many different applications quickly. The Start menu was great for that because I could just organize them in nice little nested, organized trees.

I can't comment on the home versions, just Server and Professional. As a work OS, it's easily the worst OS I've ever seen. I'm actually working on migrating a large number of servers off of Windows because it's such complete garbage.

I use Pro, and I have no issues. I have only briefly played with Server, and I do feel like the interface is a little out of place there, but otherwise it seemed fine. I like to judge the OS based on its stability and function, and from that standpoint I absolutely cannot agree with "worst OS I've ever seen." That's got to be hyperbole, right?



How about this, then: "If you can't make a change for the better, don't make the change?" The first step to making Windows 8 useful is to make it look like Windows 7.

Then why not use Windows 7?

Akin: Sometimes, if people want someone who's like Richard O'Brien or Bruce Campbell, I wish they'd call Richard O'Brien or Bruce Campbell.
 
2013-01-13 03:38:50 PM
My dad tried giving it the benefit of the doubt on his new laptop, dedicating himself to getting used to the changes. Within a week I had to overwrite it with Windows 7. Frustration had built to the point that he was about to smash it against a wall.
 
2013-01-13 03:41:45 PM

LasersHurt: But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?

I will agree that a simple option to disable it and use a Start Menu would have been easy to make, and very popular with users who don't like change. I can't for the life of me imagine why they were such sticklers about not adding such an option


Does said change do anything to improve ease of use? Does it use an excessive amount of resources the way Aero did with Vista initially? Does it do anything besides look nicer? Does it make the computer operate more efficiently? Does the feature make your machine more secure, or more vulnerable?

Look at Windows ever since the switch to 64 bit architecture. Other than CPU and Ram usage and some security features that are inherent with 64 bit architecture what do any of the features that come with Vista, 7 and 8 accomplish? Not a damn thing other than forcing users to adapt to different menu styles and making it look prettier. Prettier can be ok as long as it's not a resource hog, but changing menu systems and style for anything other than a more intuitive system is foolish. Like I said before, software should revolve around adapting to the user base, not user base adapting to software.
 
2013-01-13 03:44:33 PM
I've not used such a rage-inducing interface in a long time... And the problem has absolutely nothing to do with a learning curve, I'm a developer and can kinda handle things like that. It's that the UI IS COMPLETELY WRONG FOR THE TYPE OF DEVICE IT IS PRESENTED UPON.

Will only use 8 when I have to, until Microsoft fixes its' collective shiat.
 
2013-01-13 03:44:34 PM
You know what I really want?

I want a Surface Pro with the detachable keyboard that, when set up in desktop mode operates like Windows 7 and when in tablet mode operates like Windows 8....

That would instantly take Windows 8 from epic failure to completely awesome...
And a Server OS with no Metro. Fark Metro. BEYOND useless on a server install.

Give me that, Microsoft.
 
2013-01-13 03:45:47 PM

antnyjc: It's sad that a lot of people listen to trash talk of windows 8 without checking the sources of their information


My information comes from my clients. Virtually every one of them has hated it because they don't know what to do, and to be honest, I can't blame them.

antnyjc: You are not required to have a touch screen! Though if you are using a laptop and like to use the touch pad, you can use the touch pad as if it was the screen for navigation.


You mean like a mouse? Not quite understanding what you're getting at here.

antnyjc: The Shutdown button has been moved to the Charms.


Oh, of course! The Charms! WTF is the Charms? (I'm just asking what EVERYONE ELSE who bought a Win8 computer would ask in this situation)

antnyjc: You can freely drown it in links like most people do anyway


This sounds suspiciously like Engrish. All it's missing is the word "happy!"
 
2013-01-13 03:45:54 PM

zeroeffect: I've not used such a rage-inducing interface in a long time... And the problem has absolutely nothing to do with a learning curve, I'm a developer and can kinda handle things like that. It's that the UI IS COMPLETELY WRONG FOR THE TYPE OF DEVICE IT IS PRESENTED UPON.


Even ignoring the uselessness of it on a desktop, I hate the jarring switch back and forth. It's like using two completely different operating systems at the same time and neither one is quite right for the job at hand...
 
2013-01-13 03:47:31 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: Like I said before, software should revolve around adapting to the user base, not user base adapting to software.


...Much more eloquently put that my temper would allow :]
 
2013-01-13 03:48:25 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: Look at Windows ever since the switch to 64 bit architecture. Other than CPU and Ram usage and some security features that are inherent with 64 bit architecture what do any of the features that come with Vista, 7 and 8 accomplish? Not a damn thing other than forcing users to adapt to different menu styles and making it look prettier.


This tells me that you know very little about the internals of Windows over the last decade.
 
2013-01-13 03:50:00 PM

Bungles: When Windows goes wrong, I can dig myself out of the hole pretty easily.


Step 1: Put down the shovel.

/Damn, that's one appropriate fark handle.
 
2013-01-13 03:52:22 PM

oh_please: Oh, of course! The Charms! WTF is the Charms?


One of the silliest UI terms since you could "squirt" with the Zune.
 
2013-01-13 03:52:55 PM
1. Customers are voluntarily retarded. We're in an age where confusion on ANYTHING can be settled with a web search, but people will instead whine until a corporation spends millions in both funds and man-hours to solve their confusion for them.

2. Windows 8 isn't that different than Windows 7. Most of the time, I'm in desktop mode.

3. They're changing the mouse-keyboard paradigm? Good. Windows 8 has forced OEMs to try new designs and has revolutionized product offerings across the board. As a developer, I'm excited to take advantage of the changes offered.

4. They extended the start menu across the screen. That's it. Turn up your mouse's sensitivity and it won't be any additional work on your part.
 
2013-01-13 03:55:16 PM
I'm looking forward to using Boot Camp to dual boot Win 8 on my new 27" iMac so I can play games. When I'm done goofing off, I'll just boot back to OSX so I can get back to work writing games.
 
2013-01-13 03:55:26 PM

oh_please: You mean like a mouse? Not quite understanding what you're getting at here.


You can swipe from the left on the touch pad to pull up charms, from the bottom to pull up options, from the top to close apps, from the left to go back to the previous App. Exactly as if you were using the touch screen.

I do wish they let you do that with mouse movements though. All the corner stuff is annoying till you get used to it.
 
2013-01-13 04:03:56 PM

LasersHurt: Dingleberry Dickwad: Look at Windows ever since the switch to 64 bit architecture. Other than CPU and Ram usage and some security features that are inherent with 64 bit architecture what do any of the features that come with Vista, 7 and 8 accomplish? Not a damn thing other than forcing users to adapt to different menu styles and making it look prettier.

This tells me that you know very little about the internals of Windows over the last decade.


This tells me you aren't going to answer my question. I'm not talking about the internals, or at least not intentionally since you're right and I don't know a whole lot about them. But I'll try to be more precise in what I mean. In terms of user experience Windows got better with the switch from 98 to XP (yes I'm skipping ME). Simpler to use, easier to figure out, more intuitive. Vista, 7 and 8 went backwards in that area and added a bit more of a learning curve to figure things out and from what you're saying about 8, went so far as to make it more difficult to switch to a system the user is more familiar with, and all of them seem to be trying to justify things by saying "Look! Shinies! Pretty!"
 
2013-01-13 04:05:24 PM
"What does baffled mean?"

/obscure
 
2013-01-13 04:05:25 PM

angrymacface: OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.


A fork with the tines all twisted is different too. That doesn't mean it's useful.
 
2013-01-13 04:05:26 PM

antnyjc: oh_please: You mean like a mouse? Not quite understanding what you're getting at here.

You can swipe from the left on the touch pad to pull up charms, from the bottom to pull up options, from the top to close apps, from the left to go back to the previous App. Exactly as if you were using the touch screen.

I do wish they let you do that with mouse movements though. All the corner stuff is annoying till you get used to it.


Ok, I'll have to try that out. TIL.

The fundamental problem is that most users don't want to learn a whole new way to do stuff just so that Microsoft can push their mobile OS on people, and it's pissing folks off. Tech people see this as an absolute nightmare, and are encouraging users to stay away from 8. Again, that's the problem. This is making the Vista reaction seem like a love-fest.
 
2013-01-13 04:08:39 PM
I'm on windows 7 now and its been acting a little pissey so I was thinking of upgrading, but what I've seen of windows 8 hasn't impressed me much.
 
2013-01-13 04:10:10 PM

LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.



Came here to say something similar. Been rocking Win8 on my aging Dell Studio 1537 for some time and it's been hands down my favorite Windows OS since Win2k, giving a breath of fresh air to this aging hardware and being enjoyable to use to boot. Granted I upgraded from Vista... But I'm looking at a copy of Win7 Ultimate next to me and see absolutely zero reason to install it, it's a fine OS in it's own right and will remain on my desktop for a while but come on, Windows 8 is nice. There is nothing confusing or baffling about it, you would have to be a completely and utter moron to be troubled by anything other than minor UI gadgets or changed slightly changed item placements (as they do with EVERY version of Windows for some reason).
 
2013-01-13 04:11:09 PM

dr_blasto:
Alternatively, what reason would anyone have to move from Win7 to 8? Outside of it being OEM on a new PC, I can't see any argument to support going to the new OS.


It is faster, especially on startup and restarts (a long weakness of windows). It manages memory somewhat better and has better system management tools. The integrated search and start screen keyboard functions are definitely superior by far. Networking functions are improved (though take some getting used to). I have come to like the start screen better than the old start menu. Oh and switching between apps (both in the modern ui and desktop) is amazingly fast and seamless.

It IS a marginal update from 7 but it is in no way whatsoever worse (being different does not equal worse), and is better in some aspects. It is not necessary to upgrade but if a machine has it there is no sensible reason not to take it.

I have now upgraded all but one of my PCs to it (4 windows 8 machines now) and am entirely comfortable with using it. I retain one windows 7 laptop because I am a bit worried about some very odd astronomy software I use, but will doubtless take the plunge on that one too.

The modern UI.. well we shall see. If they figure out a decent 'desktop mode' version with better window management for better mouse driven desktop use it could go far.. or it could not.
 
2013-01-13 04:14:00 PM

Bungles: Windows 8 is here for 4 or 5 years.

Computers will doing nothing but become more touchscreeny in the next 5 years. It's a decision Microsoft had to make.

It's a little like Apple ditching the cd-drive. Looked a bit barmy for the first year, then it was clearly to right design choice to have made.


True, but it's an over designed interface.

Rather than try to reinvent the wheel, Apple is essentially slowly converging OSX with iOS through adding things like Launchpad and the notification center. It seems likely that they'll converge with OSXI, which will run on all Apple devices (I suppose it's just a matter of time until they're sticking Intel chips into the iPads).
 
2013-01-13 04:21:04 PM
All they had to do was have an option for Windows 7 style interface. They didn't, and now won't implement one because they could never admit they were wrong. It's sad.
 
2013-01-13 04:23:49 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.



How many of those are just expecations based on how computers have always worked, though? I handed my mom an Android tablet, and none of those questions surfaced. Why should they on a Win8 device? Only because it's shaped like a laptop, so people expect it to behave the way Win7 does.

Win8 has some flaws, sure. I don't like how you have to close programs for instance. (Yeah, you can alt+F4 but on my g/f's laptop the F keys are in the "fn" row so it's three awkward buttons instead of two convenient ones. :( )

The point is tablets have become really popular in part because they are easy to use. That ease of use, in part, comes from ditching some of the old school conventions of PCs. It's smart to start doing the same thing with actual PCs. What's lacking is the execution...

That said, my g/f is happy with her Win8 laptop and the OS seems to be stable and work well. Yeah, MS has that whole alternate release tradition going still... but you know what? Unlike Win98, Me, Vista... Win8 isn't terrible. It's just not as good as it could be.

Not to mention I really like their end-game: Unified platform across different form factors. Being able to run the same software across my desktop, my phone and my tablet will rock. Being able to write my software and have it work on desktop, tablet and phone will also rock.

/sticking with Android until then though
//Google should work on Android based PC's rather than those dumb Chromebooks
///out of curiosity... anyone looking at the Ubuntu phone?
 
2013-01-13 04:27:39 PM

angrymacface: OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.


There's a little bit of that going around but for myself and my experiences with it, the interface suffers from a work flow problem. Perhaps it will just take some getting used to but it feels inefficient when it comes to working with multiple windows.
 
rpm
2013-01-13 04:32:01 PM

thornhill: (I suppose it's just a matter of time until they're sticking Intel chips into the iPads).


You may be assuming the wrong direction. I've seen rumors of switching to A6 or it's successor in desktops.
 
2013-01-13 04:34:43 PM
I am just glad Microsoft doesn't design cars.

Yes, we replaced the steering wheel with 5 joysticks and since everyone loves touch screens we replaced the gas and brake pedals with touch sensors in your seat. Clench you left buttock for gas and clench your right buttocks to break.

And we removed the key ignition from the steering wheel column. It is now in the trunk, behind the spare tire.

Duh....
 
2013-01-13 04:35:37 PM

doglover: Microsoft makes shiatty products trying to force conumers to do what it wants them to do, gets absolutely murdered in the marketplace, reluctantly makes a good product with the features comsumers want, makes money, gets drunk and overconfident on the money, and starts the cycle again.


So many farking times THIS it's not even funny. That's all they will ever do with that idiot Ballmer in charge.
 
2013-01-13 04:36:01 PM

Mr.Tangent: angrymacface: OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.

There's a little bit of that going around but for myself and my experiences with it, the interface suffers from a work flow problem. Perhaps it will just take some getting used to but it feels inefficient when it comes to working with multiple windows.


Oh, it could certainly use work in a number of areas. Using metro apps with multiple displays is annoying, for instance.
 
2013-01-13 04:41:01 PM
Pft, I was using Win98 til 2009.

Now that I have Vista, I assume I'll keep using that til... 2020? By then I guess someone might have invented a Linux distro that's not utter chickenshiat.
 
2013-01-13 04:41:44 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Pft, I was using Win98 til 2009.

Now that I have Vista, I assume I'll keep using that til... 2020? By then I guess someone might have invented a Linux distro that's not utter chickenshiat.


Unity shall be everywhere.
 
2013-01-13 04:50:12 PM
Not just our parents & grandparents are having trouble with it.

I have a college aged friend who was nearly in tears trying to figure out how to work her new touch screen laptop during the first 48 hours she had it.  Then she moved on to wanting to set it on fire.  Lots of angry and frustrated messages from her during that week.
After about a week it simmered down to quiet resentment.
I'm a mac user so I'm not really familiar with windows and wasn't much help.

Don't these companies test drive their systems on people outside their bubble?   A test batch of old people and young people should make it easier to spot the rough edges that need to be smoothed *before* the product hits the shelves.  Or am I just crazily naive on this?
 
2013-01-13 04:52:05 PM

rpm: thornhill: (I suppose it's just a matter of time until they're sticking Intel chips into the iPads).

You may be assuming the wrong direction. I've seen rumors of switching to A6 or it's successor in desktops.


Either way, we can't be that far away from iPads having as much processing power as a Macbook Air.
 
2013-01-13 04:56:44 PM

Mike Chewbacca: "What does baffled mean?"

/obscure


"What does incompetent mean?"

//not obscure, came here expecting it
 
2013-01-13 04:58:57 PM

cmunic8r99: oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

In the lower left corner where it always was.

[dumbimages.net image 542x165]

There's likely one on your keyboard, too.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

Alt-Tab, Alt-F4, Click Start, hit the start button on the keyboard...

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE and click the power button. Or touch the power button on the computer.

"I don't know how to find a file"

On the Start screen (see above on how to find it), start typing your search criteria. Click the Files icon on the right.

Or, from the Start screen, open Windows Explorer, and search the same way as before.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

Right-click, choose Uninstall.

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.

Let me know if you need any further help.


Really excellent job explaining why MS should not have put Win8 on actual PCs/laptops.

/wish I'd bought a Win7 laptop instead
 
2013-01-13 05:08:22 PM
I am the service manager at a local computer shop and the host of a 1 hour tech/computer help radio show.

At my shop I have had 31 computers brought into the shop by owners asking us to remove windows 8 and put on windows 7. When offered to be trained on windows 8 for less than half the cost of having windows 7 installed, not a single customer was interested.

Last Friday, 2 laptops and a desktop, all different customers mind you, we're dropped of at our shop to have windows 8 removed and windows 7 installed.

That isn't mentioning the 5-10 calls a day to out shop by people asking how they perform simple tasks in there windows 8 computers. Nor the numerous calls by listener to the radio station asking for help with their new windows 8 computers

My experience is showing consumer either are confused by or hate windows 8.


Ymmv
 
2013-01-13 05:10:12 PM

angrymacface: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Pft, I was using Win98 til 2009.

Now that I have Vista, I assume I'll keep using that til... 2020? By then I guess someone might have invented a Linux distro that's not utter chickenshiat.

Unity shall be everywhere.


Speaking of hidden UI elements...

"What's that? You like having your programs in categorical list form? WELL SCREW YOU! You can have a handful of shortcuts. Otherwise, I hope you've memorized the names of every program and utility you use!"
 
2013-01-13 05:21:29 PM
You know what task oriented enterprise software end users really enjoy? That's right, re-learning how to use their operating system, because the operating system on their desktop at work is the most important priority they have.

"It's even better than the introduction of ribbon menu's," said Suzy in Accounting. "I can't wait for them to alphabetize the keyboard so everyone will be able to type!"
 
2013-01-13 05:30:41 PM
I was mighty baffled by the Metro Interface. I've gotten the hang of it now, and I don't feel it's much better than the Win7 Start Menu. Although I do like the easy access to my Google Calendar and Contacts.

Also, my sound card went buggy because of outdated drivers that Creative Labs was not interested in updating. I had to by a brand new card.
 
2013-01-13 05:31:08 PM

Bschott007: I am the service manager at a local computer shop and the host of a 1 hour tech/computer help radio show.

At my shop I have had 31 computers brought into the shop by owners asking us to remove windows 8 and put on windows 7. When offered to be trained on windows 8 for less than half the cost of having windows 7 installed, not a single customer was interested.

Last Friday, 2 laptops and a desktop, all different customers mind you, we're dropped of at our shop to have windows 8 removed and windows 7 installed.

That isn't mentioning the 5-10 calls a day to out shop by people asking how they perform simple tasks in there windows 8 computers. Nor the numerous calls by listener to the radio station asking for help with their new windows 8 computers

My experience is showing consumer either are confused by or hate windows 8.


Ymmv


Yep, that's my experience here in the trenches as well. Yet it's funny that our resident FarkExpertsTM can't understand why anyone wouldn't love it.

"See, you just have to do x instead of y now....except when you have to do z...and for God's sake, DON'T forget to sign up for a Live account! Don't want to sign up for a Live account and try to close the program? We'll just put up a white screen saying, "Sorry, you have to sign up for a Live account...now just go ahead and see if you can get out of this screen, NOOB!"
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-01-13 05:34:56 PM

LasersHurt: And nobody has proven that Windows 8 makes you less productive. Or more productive. I don't think anyone's done a study.


There doesn't have to be a study. If I dump my Windows 7 machine and purchase a new PC with WIN 8 and have to learn a new interface, it is NOT possible that I am more productive for sometime.  The time wasted learning a new interface is what people are reluctant to embrace.  It's like Office going to the ribbon, it took quite a while before I could do the things I already KNEW how to do on the previous version.  At one point I was in a hurry at work and literally became so frustrated with Office that I pulled out paper and a pencil to get a job done.

I look at Windows designers as profoundly arrogant.  They decide, "with our next version we'll redirect the market and force all our users to re-learn their productivity tools".

It's a betrayal.  People buy their products, the users invest a significant portion of their lives learning how to use those products then when the company decides it wants to make more money, change their image, etc. etc, they pull the rug out from under their loyal customers.  Whatever happened to gradual change?  Where one version makes changes to a final end result?  No, Micro soft had determined that much of what you know about windows will have to be relearned.  It's easier for Microsoft because they don't have to plan long term change.
 
2013-01-13 05:41:06 PM
I don't understand why "PC Market still stinks" = "Windows 8 sucks".
There is no OS that will stop the PC market from declining. People just don't need that many PCs anymore.
 
2013-01-13 05:43:44 PM

LasersHurt: This tells me that you know very little about the internals of Windows over the last decade.


I don't give a shiat about the internals of Windows.

And therein lies the problem with trying to market an operating system as a commercial product. End-users don't notice the important functionality and focus only on what looks different.
 
2013-01-13 05:49:51 PM

poot_rootbeer: LasersHurt: This tells me that you know very little about the internals of Windows over the last decade.

I don't give a shiat about the internals of Windows.

And therein lies the problem with trying to market an operating system as a commercial product. End-users don't notice the important functionality and focus only on what looks different.


Its like plumbing. If you do your job right, no one should notice.
 
2013-01-13 05:50:43 PM

Zmog: Ignore grammar fail above.


I blame it on Windows 8.
 
2013-01-13 06:00:02 PM

LasersHurt: The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.


Do any of the changes make sense from a user point of view? Do they enhance the user experience? Do they make the workflow more efficient? Honest question. I haven't used Win 8 yet, but from what I can surmise from reviews posted online, the main criticisms boil down to this: the changes might make sense from a long-term business strategy point of view, but the end user doesn't benefit at all. So what's your opinion on the changes from a user standpoint?
 
2013-01-13 06:08:21 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."


Ford and GM manage to update their cars every few years and make them faster, quieter, safer and more comfortable. But they keep the gas and brake pedals, the steering wheel etc where everyone expects them to be.

What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.
 
2013-01-13 06:14:06 PM
i166.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-13 06:27:30 PM

NFA: It's a betrayal.  People buy their products, the users invest a significant portion of their lives learning how to use those products then when the company decides it wants to make more money, change their image, etc. etc, they pull the rug out from under their loyal customers.  Whatever happened to gradual change?  Where one version makes changes to a final end result?  No, Micro soft had determined that much of what you know about windows will have to be relearned.  It's easier for Microsoft because they don't have to plan long term change.


Well, remember, Apple did this too, in 2001 when they released OS X 10.1. They completely overhauled it to the point older apps only worked in a weird compatibility mode. It was a strange transition - especially if you used big Apple apps like Photoshop which struggled and hemmed and hawed about getting compatible.

The difference is while it was a big graphical shift, they also had big underlying changes that made the graphical shifts tolerable. Yes, you don't have your Apple Menu anymore, but now one bad program doesn't crash your entire computer. Control Panels shrinking to one. Better peripheral support, ect.

The biggest problem is Win 8 doesn't do anything that significantly better then Win 7 - the driver base is the same. Programs work the same (if they're older Win 7 apps). I The new Windows Apps are nice, but not an earth-shattering change. If you go on the Windows App store, what the they? Very few productivity apps - some games, a lot of information retrieval apps - apps that basically replicate a website. But things that are genuinely useful and interesting? Not many. So far, there's no app like Shazam was for iOS or Word was for Windows 3.1. On the topic of full-screen Apps, let's look at Apple again. They added full screen apps without sacrificing the basic operations of the OS. Instead of new, centrally-controlled Apps, anyone can make any app full screen relatively easily.

And despite how similarly they look - Windows RT (BTW, what the hell does RT mean?) and Windows 8 are signifigantly different. I have at my store returned more then half the very few RT Devices we've sold. People are just hobbled by poor apps, lack of x86 apps and general slowness. Also, have you seen the commercials for Surface? All about the hardware. Half the people who ask me about it don't even know what the hell it does! They return it and get less expensive, more expansive, more mature Android devices.

I like Windows 8 so far. But it's very very easy for me to see the huge gaping holes, especially when i compare my Win 8 gaming PC compared to my very mature iMac, something that does most of what Win 8 tries for, and does it more elegantly.
 
2013-01-13 06:31:18 PM

LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.


But but I have to spend 20 minutes to learn something
 
2013-01-13 06:32:49 PM
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com

This is what your desktop looks like after easily switching from default. Which leads me to wonder why so many people are whining about Metro or whatever it's officially called. YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE IT!!!

Granted, this only applies to OEM. I sure has hell wouldn't purchase 8 outright; no reason to. But I also wouldn't hold on buying a new computer until the next OS is out. You're only hurting yourself that way.

There is nothing wrong with 8. That also means there's no reason to upgrade. But don't fear it just because it's on the laptop you want to buy.
 
2013-01-13 06:35:13 PM

oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"


Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video
 
2013-01-13 06:37:31 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

But but I have to spend 20 minutes to learn something


If you have to spend 20 minutes learning it, it's a failure of design. You shouldn't have to "learn" it the way you "learned" your times tables. You should find it naturally progressing.

It's one reason i think iOS is the brightest thing ever thought up - a 2 year old can learn it. That's intuitive, human-based design. It's what Windows 8 isn't.
 
2013-01-13 06:38:57 PM

Flint Ironstag: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

Ford and GM manage to update their cars every few years and make them faster, quieter, safer and more comfortable. But they keep the gas and brake pedals, the steering wheel etc where everyone expects them to be.

What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.


Let's put it another way. The original cars had no mirrors, windshields, or seatbelts and you had to turn a crank in the back in order to get them to start. Should cars still look like that, just so we don't change the UI?
 
2013-01-13 06:42:25 PM

saintstryfe: drjekel_mrhyde: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

But but I have to spend 20 minutes to learn something

If you have to spend 20 minutes learning it, it's a failure of design. You shouldn't have to "learn" it the way you "learned" your times tables. You should find it naturally progressing.

It's one reason i think iOS is the brightest thing ever thought up - a 2 year old can learn it. That's intuitive, human-based design. It's what Windows 8 isn't.


The problem isn't two year olds. You can probably put a two year old in front of anything and they'd learn it eventually. The problem is adults who struggle to learn computer interfaces, so any change for them is problematic. The change could make things far easier and more intuitive, and a certain group of people will struggle with it because they learned one way to do things.
 
2013-01-13 06:43:17 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video


Do it, you'd get a lot of views.

My clients who ask these questions aren't tards, they've been on Windows for years. Obviously you don't support end users.
 
2013-01-13 06:43:49 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video


Actually, in W8 full screen Apps, there is no close button. You have to throw your mouse to the top, center of the screen, wait for the cursor to change, click and drag it to the bottom and release. It's not intuitive at all.

I didn't know where Restart/Shut Down where at first, either. I had to play with it for 5 minutes. not much to me, but to some people that's a very displeasing task.

Find a file is confusing - when you pull up your charms (by throwing your mouse to the upper or lower right corner of the screen) you select search. In that, if you're in a full screen App it will initially search in the app you're using. It doesn't default to the system as a whole.

File management is a big problem for Win 8 - it looks forward to an iOS-like world where filesystems are hidden from the user, but file management is the very basis of Windows.

If you have Win 8, try to save a document in a full screen app - try like Chrome. If I right-click a link, the Save Dialog takes up the entire window. It also doesn't default to someplace easy like the Documents folder or the Desktop - it defaults in the App's directory. THat's just sad. It might just be Chrome, but it is annoying.
 
2013-01-13 06:44:02 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video


I consider myself pretty PC savvy. First time I opened a Metro app I couldn't work out how to close it. After fifteen years of Windows programmes having a close/minimise/maximise box top right suddenly there isn't one.
If you got a new car and suddenly found that the gear stick didn't have reverse and I said "Well you wave your hand over the stick and a reverse button appears! Duh!" would you consider that reasonable? Once you know it you can use it, but it is not intuitive or obvious.
 
2013-01-13 06:44:30 PM

Telos: Flint Ironstag: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

Ford and GM manage to update their cars every few years and make them faster, quieter, safer and more comfortable. But they keep the gas and brake pedals, the steering wheel etc where everyone expects them to be.

What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.

Let's put it another way. The original cars had no mirrors, windshields, or seatbelts and you had to turn a crank in the back in order to get them to start. Should cars still look like that, just so we don't change the UI?


UI changes are good when they make the system work better. These don't.
 
2013-01-13 06:46:20 PM

dickfreckle: Granted, this only applies to OEM.


Where "switching from default" means "buying from an OEM that has a piece of start menu crapware you like". That looks an awful lot like the Samsung "start menu" app that they offer on their own devices. And not every OEM offers such a thing. And, of course, we all know that third-party crapware that OEMs preinstall always works perfectly and never causes any problems at all.

If you had a valid point you wouldn't have to be disingenuous about it. That's not the start menu, it's not part of the OS, it's not supported by Microsoft. It's a third party piece of crapware preinstalled on some Samsung devices.
 
2013-01-13 06:46:36 PM

saintstryfe: drjekel_mrhyde: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

But but I have to spend 20 minutes to learn something

If you have to spend 20 minutes learning it, it's a failure of design. You shouldn't have to "learn" it the way you "learned" your times tables. You should find it naturally progressing.

It's one reason i think iOS is the brightest thing ever thought up - a 2 year old can learn it. That's intuitive, human-based design. It's what Windows 8 isn't.


My seven year old got it. How the fark hard is it to go to the left bottom part of the screen(not metro menu) and right farking click and get your old shiat back
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-13 06:47:41 PM
I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.
 
2013-01-13 06:48:20 PM

Telos: The problem isn't two year olds. You can probably put a two year old in front of anything and they'd learn it eventually. The problem is adults who struggle to learn computer interfaces, so any change for them is problematic. The change could make things far easier and more intuitive, and a certain group of people will struggle with it because they learned one way to do things.


I dig - but the thing is, even rote learners will eventually nod and agree if things are actually better. Win 8's changes generally just either slow down or obfuscate the user.
 
2013-01-13 06:48:58 PM

Telos: What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.

Let's put it another way. The original cars had no mirrors, windshields, or seatbelts and you had to turn a crank in the back in order to get them to start. Should cars still look like that, just so we don't change the UI?


Mirrors help you see, and were an addition. Windshields keep your face from freezing and were an addition. Seatbelts save your life and were an addition.

Removing the start button, and its hierarchical program menu, is taking away a feature.

What does Metro actually add? Mirrors, windscreens and seatbelts all added a useful function. What does removing Start and adding Metro actually add?
 
2013-01-13 06:52:07 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: My seven year old got it. How the fark hard is it to go to the left bottom part of the screen(not metro menu) and right farking click and get your old shiat back


If I have to teach a veteran Windows user to do that, that's a complete FAIL on Microsoft's part.
 
2013-01-13 06:54:42 PM

LasersHurt: I don't know why they cry so much about change.


Because you're a short-sighted prick who thinks everyone should be just like you?
 
2013-01-13 06:57:15 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: My seven year old got it. How the fark hard is it to go to the left bottom part of the screen(not metro menu) and right farking click and get your old shiat back


As a dissatisfied W8 user I get all of that, but my response is, "Why add all those unneeded layers of complexity to what was otherwise a pretty clean and mature system? It's not like my laptop has a touch screen that really benefits from the W8 GUI. It's just a farking W7 machine with added clutter that in no way enhances the experience.
 
2013-01-13 06:59:25 PM

dickfreckle: But I also wouldn't hold on buying a new computer until the next OS is out. You're only hurting yourself that way.


Please, we'd all love to hear how this hurts us in any way at all.
My computer works perfectly fine exactly as is. I'm hurting myself by not installing this abortion?

/shill much?
 
2013-01-13 06:59:53 PM
Here's one of the derp I hear " Flash can not be installed in IE 10 on Windows 8"
/Flash is already installed in IE10 you just have to enable it
//Unless you are one of those who like Pop up Flash videos
 
2013-01-13 07:01:28 PM

ReverendJasen: dickfreckle: But I also wouldn't hold on buying a new computer until the next OS is out. You're only hurting yourself that way.

Please, we'd all love to hear how this hurts us in any way at all.
My computer works perfectly fine exactly as is. I'm hurting myself by not installing this abortion?

/shill much?


I don't think he was saying that - he's just saying don't limp on a C2D for the next 4 years waiting for Win 9 (aka Win 8 SP2). There's probably going to be no benefit to waiting.

/MS wouldn't be getting this hate if they just allowed downgrades within the Support Timeframe for 7
 
2013-01-13 07:02:07 PM

doglover: You want your OS to be adopted? Stop charging for it.


[citation needed]
 
2013-01-13 07:02:35 PM

ReverendJasen: LasersHurt: I don't know why they cry so much about change.

Because you're a short-sighted prick who thinks everyone should be just like you?


Boy you're angry, eh?
 
2013-01-13 07:03:53 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video


How can you not be sure that's serious? Virtually every new Windows 8 user I've seen had those same questions, often more than once since the answers are easy to forget and hard to discover just by playing around.
 
2013-01-13 07:04:31 PM

Stone Meadow: drjekel_mrhyde: My seven year old got it. How the fark hard is it to go to the left bottom part of the screen(not metro menu) and right farking click and get your old shiat back

As a dissatisfied W8 user I get all of that, but my response is, "Why add all those unneeded layers of complexity to what was otherwise a pretty clean and mature system? It's not like my laptop has a touch screen that really benefits from the W8 GUI. It's just a farking W7 machine with added clutter that in no way enhances the experience.


truthfully I think people that have Xbox or a Windows phone have no problem with it. I love live tiles BTW so it fits
/W8 box using a mouse and keyboard and no problems
 
2013-01-13 07:05:11 PM

FriarReb98: Confused, all right.   Confused as to why they think people want touchscreen EVERYTHING.  I can't stand touch screens. It'll never be as exact as a mouse, period.  And that's before we talk about how they are trying to push tablets, and giving the option to buy a keyboard to go with it.  Also known as... oh ya, A FARKING NOTEBOOK. (One with much less memory than what most people need, FWIW.)

I need a laptop.  I need one with a shiatload of memory.  I don't need touchscreen.  I don't need to do 90% of what you see people doing in Windows commercials, at least not in the way they do it.  My laptop is currently almost 2-1/2 years old.  If it dies before the next generation, I'm sure as shiat having my best friend (a computer geek who feels the exact same way about 8 as I do) re-image it in a crack-addict's heartbeat.


I thought I was alone.

- will never buy anything touchscreen again.
- worst experience ever
 
2013-01-13 07:05:46 PM

ReverendJasen: LasersHurt: I don't know why they cry so much about change.

Because you're a short-sighted prick who thinks everyone should be just like you?


I'm not sure whether he's an MS shill or not, but if he is, he should tell his bosses that end-users FARKING HATE Windows 8. I shouldn't be biatching, it's good money for me, but goddamn I haven't seen a worse clusterfark in terms of usability for PCs.
 
2013-01-13 07:06:03 PM

saintstryfe: ReverendJasen: dickfreckle: But I also wouldn't hold on buying a new computer until the next OS is out. You're only hurting yourself that way.

Please, we'd all love to hear how this hurts us in any way at all.
My computer works perfectly fine exactly as is. I'm hurting myself by not installing this abortion?

/shill much?

I don't think he was saying that - he's just saying don't limp on a C2D for the next 4 years waiting for Win 9 (aka Win 8 SP2). There's probably going to be no benefit to waiting.

/MS wouldn't be getting this hate if they just allowed downgrades within the Support Timeframe for 7


They do for some Link
 
2013-01-13 07:07:08 PM

deSelby: drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video

How can you not be sure that's serious? Virtually every new Windows 8 user I've seen had those same questions, often more than once since the answers are easy to forget and hard to discover just by playing around.


Let me Google that for you
 
2013-01-13 07:07:54 PM

LasersHurt: Boy you're angry, eh?


Why does one need be angry to call out pricks when they see them?
My day's going fine. Even this thread made me giggle a bit. Lulz I tell ya.
 
2013-01-13 07:08:43 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: deSelby: drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video

How can you not be sure that's serious? Virtually every new Windows 8 user I've seen had those same questions, often more than once since the answers are easy to forget and hard to discover just by playing around.

Let me Google that for you


So you have to Google to learn how to do basic tasks on your new machine? FAIL.
 
2013-01-13 07:13:13 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Let me Google that for you


I've seen users try to Google answers for themselves. They move their pointer to the right and *woosh*, some other program slides over replacing their browser. Frustration and helplessness.
 
2013-01-13 07:14:59 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.


It's not that they have to learn something new, it's that they have to learn something new that is both non intuitive as previous iterations were, and was changed for pretty much no reason other than to be able to release a new OS they can charge folks for. I just don't get the fact that you're so obtuse as to not understand this despite it being explained numerous times. Fix what's broken and can use improvement, leave what works alone. What's so hard about that?
 
2013-01-13 07:15:07 PM
Windows 8 is a fine OS with a bunch of badly thought-through interface changes. Most of the changes can be fixed with a quick google "how do I do x in Windows 8?" to learn the new command.

I miss some kind of Start button in the taskbar. I keep opening Internet Explorer instead of hitting the sweet spot to get the Start button. They could have at least made the sweet spot the same size as the "minimize all" area on the other side of the task bar.

I miss XP mode from my Windows 7 upgrade. I have to support XP still and it was handy.

I think Metro is rubbish and spend no time there. You want fun, figure out how to change Weather from Fahrenheit to Celsius. Hint: it's not in Weather's Settings, where you'd expect to find it, once you've found the Charms Settings for it, that is. Metro is chock-a-block with design inconsistencies and bad choices like that. Closing Metro apps isn't exactly intuitive.

Mark II Metro might be better but I'm still no fan of active Metro tiles. They just make a visually noisy landscape that presents little in the way of new or useful information.

The OS itself is pretty solid. It's stable, it's fast. The UI problems will probably get sorted out in time. I imagine Microsoft is hearing an earful from people about all the things they hate. You got to think some of that will percolate down to the design team. In the meantime, Windows 8 is hard to support for all the good reasons other posters have already listed.
 
2013-01-13 07:15:11 PM

Flint Ironstag: What does Metro actually add? Mirrors, windscreens and seatbelts all added a useful function. What does removing Start and adding Metro actually add?


To continue the car analogy, Windows 8 is a car which has had it's gas pedal, brake pedal and steering wheel replaced with a theremin.

And yes, while you may someday learn how to wave your hands around in just the right way make this car move where you want it to go, NOBODY HAS TIME FOR THAT. We've got places to be, and not a lot of time to get there, and this clunky excuse for a control scheme is just getting in the way.

Is it any wonder that the general consensus is that windows 8 is a lemon?

Ever heard the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"

It wasn't broke. Why did you idiots try to "fix" it?
 
2013-01-13 07:17:56 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: LasersHurt: I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.

It's not that they have to learn something new, it's that they have to learn something new that is both non intuitive as previous iterations were, and was changed for pretty much no reason other than to be able to release a new OS they can charge folks for. I just don't get the fact that you're so obtuse as to not understand this despite it being explained numerous times. Fix what's broken and can use improvement, leave what works alone. What's so hard about that?


You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?
 
2013-01-13 07:22:29 PM

LasersHurt: Dingleberry Dickwad: LasersHurt: I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.

It's not that they have to learn something new, it's that they have to learn something new that is both non intuitive as previous iterations were, and was changed for pretty much no reason other than to be able to release a new OS they can charge folks for. I just don't get the fact that you're so obtuse as to not understand this despite it being explained numerous times. Fix what's broken and can use improvement, leave what works alone. What's so hard about that?

You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?


That Win 8 has a shiatty UI like everyone has been saying? And for the third time in this thread, software and interfaces should be adapted to users, not users adapting to new interfaces. You know, only the same exact things that has been said multiple times in the thread.
 
2013-01-13 07:24:33 PM

LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?


You're not too bright, are ya, son? Read the thread.
 
2013-01-13 07:29:46 PM
What is the improvement from 7 to 8?

What do I get for the investment of my time in learning a new GUI.

And being 'faster' is not the answer. It could have been made faster and not changed the interface.

I haven't been hands on for more than a few minutes so I really haven't seen any improvements but there must be some.

1) I hate things that work by mouse overs. Annoying as hell.
2) I do not want to type the name of a program to run it. If I wanted to do that I'd use a CLI. Most of the time I can't remember the name of the program.
3) I do not want my GUI elements rearranging them selfs without me directly moving them [Not counting adding new software type rearrangements]. I truly detested the 'smart menus'. I remember things spatially so I want things to stay where I put them.

The 'Start' button works ok. I don't see the putting everything on the desktop as an improvement.

And the killer problem for 'Metro' is that you can't resize your windows to your own preferences. That right there means I would never use it
 
2013-01-13 07:33:22 PM

CujoQuarrel: What is the improvement from 7 to 8?

What do I get for the investment of my time in learning a new GUI.

And being 'faster' is not the answer. It could have been made faster and not changed the interface.

I haven't been hands on for more than a few minutes so I really haven't seen any improvements but there must be some.

1) I hate things that work by mouse overs. Annoying as hell.
2) I do not want to type the name of a program to run it. If I wanted to do that I'd use a CLI. Most of the time I can't remember the name of the program.
3) I do not want my GUI elements rearranging them selfs without me directly moving them [Not counting adding new software type rearrangements]. I truly detested the 'smart menus'. I remember things spatially so I want things to stay where I put them.

The 'Start' button works ok. I don't see the putting everything on the desktop as an improvement.

And the killer problem for 'Metro' is that you can't resize your windows to your own preferences. That right there means I would never use it


You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.
 
2013-01-13 07:33:50 PM

Flint Ironstag: Telos: What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.

Let's put it another way. The original cars had no mirrors, windshields, or seatbelts and you had to turn a crank in the back in order to get them to start. Should cars still look like that, just so we don't change the UI?

Mirrors help you see, and were an addition. Windshields keep your face from freezing and were an addition. Seatbelts save your life and were an addition.

Removing the start button, and its hierarchical program menu, is taking away a feature.

What does Metro actually add? Mirrors, windscreens and seatbelts all added a useful function. What does removing Start and adding Metro actually add?


Well, what are the big advantages of the start button?

1) Presents your most commonly used apps
2) Lets you type to search to program or file you want
3) Heirarchical list of apps
4) Known place for shut down/log off buttons

In Win8:
1) The metro interface itself has your most commonly used apps
2) Just typing lets you search for program, so it saves you a click
3) I don't think the heirarchy was actually helpful anyway. In fact, that's why the "type to search" feature was so awesome and popular for Win7 anyway!
4) Everyone makes fun of the logical inconsistency of clicking Start to shut down your computer.

So basically, we're talking about the crank that used to be used to start a car. They've removed something that took more effort and which didn't really add much value.
 
2013-01-13 07:33:50 PM

CujoQuarrel: What is the improvement from 7 to 8?


You could pay $40 for a legit copy
/Not going to sit here and BS you, W8 is the only software I paid for in the last 12 years
//Paid for 1 DVD(The Cell the farking Cell) in that time
 
2013-01-13 07:35:02 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: deSelby: drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video

How can you not be sure that's serious? Virtually every new Windows 8 user I've seen had those same questions, often more than once since the answers are easy to forget and hard to discover just by playing around.

Let me Google that for you


Seriously? You replace a familiar OS that millions of people happily use with one with hidden controls and then suggest they Google how to use it? When those changes offer no actual advantage to non-touch screen users?

Maybe Ford should bring out a new car with the hand brake operated through the radio controls? "Well you're turning the radio off so clearly you want to park, right?" and "Jeeze, just Google it. How hard is that?" to anyone who didn't think to check the radio controls.

/Loves W8.
//As long as it has Classic Shell.
 
2013-01-13 07:35:07 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?

You're not too bright, are ya, son? Read the thread.


My point is you can't just say it's bad, and point to it being bad as the reason it's bad. Just saying "that's not necessary" is not proof that it is or isn't. Just saying "It isn't better" isn't proof that it is or isn't.

The points in the thread are "Don't do unnecessary things" - which I get - and then "everything they have done is unnecessary", as proven by... nothing. Nothing but your opinion that it was unnecessary.
 
2013-01-13 07:36:29 PM
Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw

Almost not terrible, and completely un-farking-necessary.
 
2013-01-13 07:40:42 PM

LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad


I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.

Bschott007: I am the service manager at a local computer shop and the host of a 1 hour tech/computer help radio show.

At my shop I have had 31 computers brought into the shop by owners asking us to remove windows 8 and put on windows 7. When offered to be trained on windows 8 for less than half the cost of having windows 7 installed, not a single customer was interested.

Last Friday, 2 laptops and a desktop, all different customers mind you, we're dropped of at our shop to have windows 8 removed and windows 7 installed.

That isn't mentioning the 5-10 calls a day to out shop by people asking how they perform simple tasks in there windows 8 computers. Nor the numerous calls by listener to the radio station asking for help with their new windows 8 computers

My experience is showing consumer either are confused by or hate windows 8.


Ymmv


Did you read that? My experience is eerily similar. Tell your bosses that.
 
2013-01-13 07:41:26 PM

Jarhead_h: Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw

Almost not terrible, and completely un-farking-necessary.


How's it not necessary?
 
2013-01-13 07:43:55 PM

Marine1:

You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.


Lots of stuff, things like the default PDF viewer, only open in Metro. You can download a classic desktop PDF viewer, but then what is the point of having Metro?

Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option? I'm convinced W8 would have been loved had they done that, given people the choice, been future proof for when touchscreens and tablet takes off and so on. It would have been great had they added that functionality. Instead they have taken away a UI that millions of people were happy and comfortable using.
 
2013-01-13 07:47:18 PM

Flint Ironstag: Marine1:

You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.

Lots of stuff, things like the default PDF viewer, only open in Metro. You can download a classic desktop PDF viewer, but then what is the point of having Metro?

Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option? I'm convinced W8 would have been loved had they done that, given people the choice, been future proof for when touchscreens and tablet takes off and so on. It would have been great had they added that functionality. Instead they have taken away a UI that millions of people were happy and comfortable using.


They'll get over it.

It's the same thing. You put your cursor in the corner. You click. Ta-da.

So they changed it. Big deal.
 
2013-01-13 07:49:04 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad

I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.


But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.
 
2013-01-13 07:50:18 PM

Flint Ironstag: Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option?


Because MS is desperate for market share in phones/tablets, and by forcing a mobile UI to the PC crowd, is gambling that they'll stay with it down the road. It might work.

In the meantime, they're pissing off a whole lot of people.
 
2013-01-13 07:50:39 PM

LasersHurt: oh_please: LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad

I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.

But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.


We need to start something like that with an Apple product.
 
2013-01-13 07:51:36 PM

oh_please: Flint Ironstag: Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option?

Because MS is desperate for market share in phones/tablets, and by forcing a mobile UI to the PC crowd, is gambling that they'll stay with it down the road. It might work.

In the meantime, they're pissing off a whole lot of people.


They're pissing off idiots. That's all. And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.
 
2013-01-13 07:52:56 PM

Telos: Well, what are the big advantages of the start button?

1) Presents your most commonly used apps
2) Lets you type to search to program or file you want
3) Heirarchical list of apps
4) Known place for shut down/log off buttons

In Win8:
1) The metro interface itself has your most commonly used apps
2) Just typing lets you search for program, so it saves you a click
3) I don't think the heirarchy was actually helpful anyway. In fact, that's why the "type to search" feature was so awesome and popular for Win7 anyway!
4) Everyone makes fun of the logical inconsistency of clicking Start to shut down your computer.

So basically, we're talking about the crank that used to be used to start a car. They've removed something that took more effort and which didn't really add much value.


So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit? And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu, especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program. It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.

Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard. Where is the benefit in that?

And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!
 
2013-01-13 07:53:38 PM

LasersHurt: MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it


Most of the hate I've seen comes from people who buy a new PC, and can't figure out how to do basic tasks. The UI is crap.
 
2013-01-13 07:57:43 PM

Marine1: And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.


MS might, because these people you call "idiots" are just regular people who have used a Windows machine all their lives, you know, their ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE.

You're super awesome and much smarter than everyone else, so, there's that.
 
2013-01-13 07:59:17 PM
Has it fallen behind where even Windows Vista was from a sales standpoint?

Yes. Yes it has.

One of the vendors at CES said that they offer Win 7 or 8 on the gaming rigs they sell, and that over half of the gaming enthusiasts who choose a drive with Windows 8 preloaded bail on it within a couple of weeks.

Gaming enthusiasts aren't the type to be confused by computers, subby. People just don't like Windows 8.
 
2013-01-13 08:05:31 PM
Ive been wokring tech support for 20 years. I played with it in the store. It annoyed the crap out of me. Still better than visto.
 
2013-01-13 08:11:46 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.


Maybe a career in UX isn't the right choice for you, then.

People get upset by change. More than a fact of software design, it's a fact of human nature. Now, what can software designers do to ameliorate the problem? Should they take care to introduce change minimally and gently, and for measurable benefit? Or should they dismiss paying customers who express discomfort as being "lazy" and "stupid"?
 
2013-01-13 08:12:51 PM

LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?


The Nielsen Norman Group (NN/g) has done some usability studies on Windows 8 and the results are not pretty.

Link goes to article.

The folks at NN/g are usability experts at the top of the field; their user studies concluded that Windows 8 was "weak" on tablets and "terrible" on PCs.
 
2013-01-13 08:12:56 PM

Unknown_Poltroon: Ive been wokring tech support for 20 years. I played with it in the store. It annoyed the crap out of me. Still better than visto.


img213.imageshack.us
There's an XKCD for everything.
 
2013-01-13 08:14:37 PM

Marine1: They're pissing off idiots. That's all. And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.


You're not going to get far in business or in life without the support of idiots.

If you go out of your way to piss them off, you're one of them.
 
2013-01-13 08:24:05 PM

red5ish: LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?

The Nielsen Norman Group (NN/g) has done some usability studies on Windows 8 and the results are not pretty.

Link goes to article.

The folks at NN/g are usability experts at the top of the field; their user studies concluded that Windows 8 was "weak" on tablets and "terrible" on PCs.


Oh, thank god. That article puts into words so many of the things I've been feeling but don't have the background or training to really convey objectively.

smothers usability with big colorful tiles while hiding needed features

YES.

I farking hate the way you have to go through so many steps to get to something as basic as the network setup to the point that I've resorted to using netsh and Powershell for all network management, even on client PCs.

Users have to learn and remember where to go for which features.

YES.

If I have to remember what ten clicks I need to get to something that has a keyboard shortcut, I'll just remember the goddamn keyboard shortcut. Which is fine for me, but isn't going to fly with my users.

Switching between environments increases the interaction cost of using multiple features.
The two environments work differently, making for an inconsistent user experience.


YES.

It's like having two different OSes at the same time and neither one does what I need!

There's no pseudo-3D or lighting model to cast subtle shadows that indicate what's clickable (because it looks raised above the rest) or where you can type

YES.

It never really occurred to me, but this happened to me a couple of times when I first used it. Several times I mistook a clickable item for a label.

Yes, yes, yes.... that article puts into words so many of the things I feel about Windows 8 after having used it for several weeks...
 
2013-01-13 08:24:27 PM
LasersHurt:
But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.


N***a please.  It wasn't a meme.  I cloned and upgraded a Win7  Pro touchscreen tablet to Win8 Consumer Preview.  It made me angry how unusable it was.  I love operating systems and have had a license plate to that effect - when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.   Windows 8 intentionally hides program controls in the GUI and doesn't implement others, forcing to go to the keyboard.

I don't have a problem using a keyboard when it's my choice to launch a program.  Many times I type "dsa.msc" to launch Active Directory Users & Computers knowing that it used to be called the Directory Services Administration console.  But generally, when using a GUI, I use a mouse to open programs.  I use a mouse in programs.  And I use a mouse to close programs.  Microsoft had a year of feedback from users like me telling them that their new UI was awful to fix it.  Instead, they just lined up a litany of excuses.  "Oh, you can't shut down with two clicks?  Well, here's a seventeen-click method to use.  Oh, you can't launch every program on your computer with a mouse?  Well, here's a way to do it using a Win-key combo, right-clicking, and the blood of a chicken.  Oh, you can't close down one of our stupid Metro apps with a mouse?  Well, we designed this touch-oriented application to be closed by using Alt-F4."

There's small wonder the Surface RT ads focus on the keyboard attachment.  The UI team for Metro didn't do their job properly and completely.  They called in some keyboard shortcuts at the last minute to spackle in the gaping usability holes.

I also find it amusing that MSFT calls the 'clues' of a UI - menu bar, indicators for how to close an app or minimize it - "chrome", as if that's a bad thing.  It's like Ford calling the steering wheel a "chevy" after releasing their new car that you steer with your knees using hidden knobs.
 
2013-01-13 08:29:09 PM

oh_please: Marine1: And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.

MS might, because these people you call "idiots" are just regular people who have used a Windows machine all their lives, you know, their ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE.

You're super awesome and much smarter than everyone else, so, there's that.


I've got a better idea: how about everyone else gets on my level?

The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.
 
2013-01-13 08:33:40 PM

red5ish: Link goes to article.


Here's a pretty damning paragraph:

Furthermore, the charms don't actually work universally because they're not true generic commands. In our test, users often clicked Search only to be told, "This application cannot be searched." Enough disappointments and users will stop trying a feature. (Also, of course, it violates basic usability guidelines; that is, you shouldn't tease users by offering a feature that isn't actually available.)
 
2013-01-13 08:33:47 PM

syrynxx: LasersHurt: N***a please.  It wasn't a meme.


The huge amount of hate, even before it came out? It absolutely was a meme.

It being so doesn't disqualify individual users from disliking it after it came out.
 
2013-01-13 08:36:14 PM

syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.


Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.
 
2013-01-13 08:38:40 PM

theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.


Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?
 
2013-01-13 08:47:04 PM

Marine1: The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.


Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

Tablets you hold in your hand. A touchscreen is a logical and easy way to control them.

You do not hold the monitor of a desktop PC in your hands. It is too high, too far away and too big and your hands are on or near the keyboard and mouse on which most people do most of their work.

All these people thinking using a touchscreen on their PC makes sense clearly work at McDonalds and are happy with the screen having big pictures of a Big Mac, a cheeseburger and fries etc and think that is the way to use a PC.

/Idiotocracy got it right with their medical input screen.
 
2013-01-13 08:49:27 PM

Flint Ironstag: Marine1: The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

Tablets you hold in your hand. A touchscreen is a logical and easy way to control them.

You do not hold the monitor of a desktop PC in your hands. It is too high, too far away and too big and your hands are on or near the keyboard and mouse on which most people do most of their work.

All these people thinking using a touchscreen on their PC makes sense clearly work at McDonalds and are happy with the screen having big pictures of a Big Mac, a cheeseburger and fries etc and think that is the way to use a PC.

/Idiotocracy got it right with their medical input screen.


Tablets are going to make up the majority of computer sales. And I'm still not sold that they threw away the GUI that they had. It's a little different... but it's approximately the same thing, at least to me.
 
2013-01-13 08:50:56 PM
Flint Ironstag:Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.


You're not trapped there. I barely use Metro at all, and I work and play on my PC pretty much the entire time I am awake. It's not a burden on my psyche. YMMV.
 
2013-01-13 08:50:57 PM

LasersHurt: theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.

Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?


Well your second post said "Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.", your third post said "Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything."....
 
2013-01-13 08:54:09 PM

Marine1: Tablets are going to make up the majority of computer sales. And I'm still not sold that they threw away the GUI that they had. It's a little different... but it's approximately the same thing, at least to me.


Motorbikes outsell cars worldwide. That doesn't mean Honda fit handlebars and twist grip throttle on their cars.

W8 should have had Metro as an option, with the traditional desktop an evolution of XP/Vista/7. That would have been a huge hit, a "futureproof" Windows, giving users the option. Instead they took away the desktop features and tried to force everyone to use the interface designed for a touchscreen.
 
2013-01-13 08:59:44 PM

LasersHurt: Flint Ironstag:Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

You're not trapped there. I barely use Metro at all, and I work and play on my PC pretty much the entire time I am awake. It's not a burden on my psyche. YMMV.


When you have built the worlds biggest software/OS company on providing a product used by millions of office drones who can barely understand the concept of right click then making you flagship product new and confusing is not a great move. Racing drivers brake with their left foot, but if Ford introduced a new car where that is all you could do then there'd be carnage on the streets. Because millions of people have spent years braking with their right foot.
Why change,unless there is a big advantage to doing so? Metro only offers an advantage to touchscreens, and they took away the main control of the desktop.

When you bring out a new product and the big "selling point" is "you can get used to it" rather than "It's better because..." then you have failed.
 
2013-01-13 09:03:13 PM

Flint Ironstag:

So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit?


Like I said, less clicking.


And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu,

*snip*

...As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard.


So which is it? Is typing clunkier? Or switching to your mouse to navigate the start menu? Or are you just determined to hate it no matter what?

Ok, unsnipping now...

especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program.

Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu? Hell, on different systems the same program could even be in a different place. (Remote Desktop, for instance, is either under Communications Tools or Accessories.) How is it easier to remember the software vendor so you can find the folder? And what the hell are you talking about with "exact name?" It does a partial search, so all you have to remember is a single letter!

But now, that's WAY harder than
1) Move hand from keyboard to mouse
2) Move mouse to start button
3) Click
4) Click all programs
5) Search through giant, barely hierarchical, list of software manufacturers
6) Click to open manufacturer's folder
7) search through any subfolders THEY'VE added
8) Finally find the app you were looking for and click it

Yep. Way, WAY easier than typing the first 3 letters of the app name and hitting enter. Yep.


It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.


Sure, as long as the vendor actually followed best practices. They might not, you know. You might go through all those menus and NOT find the configuration, or the uninstall program. You know what does work most of the time though? Add/Remove programs. So... yeah, you've made it clear you prefer the tedious, slow, error prone way of doing things I guess...


Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. Where is the benefit in that?


Requires? That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!


Yeah, I'll give you that. BUT... Are those buttons actually needed? HINT: Android phones/tablets don't have a button inside the OS to shut off.
 
2013-01-13 09:04:25 PM

Flint Ironstag: LasersHurt: theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.

Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?

Well your second post said "Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.", your third post said "Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything."....


All of that can be accessed through the UI, too. I'm just saying it's super fast and easy to type it out, but it's also easy enough to do in the UI.

Flint Ironstag: When you bring out a new product and the big "selling point" is "you can get used to it" rather than "It's better because..." then you have failed.


Microsoft has tons of advertising, and I don't think any of it is "you can get used to it." They tout the features as better.
 
2013-01-13 09:07:57 PM

Flint Ironstag:

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.



Actually no, that option DOES exist. Maybe not as easy to get to as it could be, but you can definitely run Win8 without using the Metro interface.
 
2013-01-13 09:11:41 PM

Telos: Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu?


You scan through the list of programs, and when you see the actual name or logo, it jogs your memory. If you don't remember the name of the program but would recognize it if you saw it, the search bar is pretty damn useless, now, isn't it?
 
2013-01-13 09:13:17 PM
I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.
 
2013-01-13 09:13:36 PM

Telos: Flint Ironstag:

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

Actually no, that option DOES exist. Maybe not as easy to get to as it could be, but you can definitely run Win8 without using the Metro interface.


But the non metro interface is still modified in certain pointless ways that make things harder for people. The Windows 8 interface was designed by morons, how hard is that to get? Everybody hates it. Did you ever stop and think that maybe there might be a reason?
 
2013-01-13 09:23:45 PM

Telos: Flint Ironstag:

So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit?

Like I said, less clicking.
More typing.

And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu,

*snip*

...As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard.


So which is it? Is typing clunkier? Or switching to your mouse to navigate the start menu? Or are you just determined to hate it no matter what?
Generally you use a mouse to navigate and then the keyboard to work. Having a process where you click, type, click, type is less easy.
Ok, unsnipping now...

especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program.

Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu? Hell, on different systems the same program could even be in a different place. (Remote Desktop, for instance, is either under Communications Tools or Accessories.) How is it easier to remember the software vendor so you can find the folder? And what the hell are you talking about with "exact name?" It does a partial search, so all you have to remember is a single letter!

But now, that's WAY harder than
1) Move hand from keyboard to mouse
2) Move mouse to start button
3) Click
4) Click all programs
5) Search through giant, barely hierarchical, list of software manufacturers
6) Click to open manufacturer's folder
7) search through any subfolders THEY'VE added
8) Finally find the app you were looking for and click it

Yep. Way, WAY easier than typing the first 3 letters of the app name and hitting enter. Yep.
You don't click on all programmes or click to open folders. They open on mouse over. It is one smooth track with the mouse.

It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.

Sure, as long as the vendor actually followed best practices. They might not, you know. You might go through all those menus and NOT find the configuration, or the uninstall program. You know what does work most of the time though? Add/Remove programs. So... yeah, you've made it clear you prefer the tedious, slow, error prone way of doing things I guess...
I have some programmes that you need to uninstall through their link to get back an install credit. Sometimes it isn't easier. And opening Add/Remove programes is quicker and easier than one click on the start menu?

Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. Where is the benefit in that?


Requires? That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Where did I use that word? Projecting much?

And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!

Yeah, I'll give you that. BUT... Are those buttons actually needed? HINT: Android phones/tablets don't have a button inside the OS to shut off.

PCs are often buried under desks or otherwise inaccessible. A phone or tablet will usually be in your hand.
 
2013-01-13 09:27:22 PM

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


I think the $40 upgrade offer is still valid until the end of January. I went from XP to W8 and am very happy, once I installed Classic Shell. Try it and see, you might get on with it without Classic Shell but if you need it it's free. Start 8 is similar and only costs $5.
If you have a fairly modern dual core mobo/CPU then definitely go for it. XP just couldn't run dual core processors properly. W8 is far faster, smoother and has lots of neat tools like automatic backup and restore options.
 
2013-01-13 09:28:56 PM

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


I also installed Thunderbird because W7 and W8 don't have Outlook Express.
 
2013-01-13 09:31:26 PM

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


And their new Solitaire app sucks.
 
2013-01-13 09:35:23 PM
I agree with the people saying that "improve things for the better".

I've had a Win8 laptop the last couple months, my previous one sponatenously died. And my verdict after 2 months of use? same complaints everyone else has. My laptop is not touch screen, I never use the metro interface, and I found a nice app (pokki) that gives me a lot of the start menu functionality that I've gotten used to over the years. I think having to do windows key + C to get to the shutdown menu is retarded. Basic functions SHOULD NOT have to require you to google them. Let alone a "power user" as I consider myself.

Now, I will say that its boots amazingly fast. It runs very well. Coming out of hibernation, for the first time ever, does not break things. Its a good looking OS. I just think they made a few too many changes to the simple things that should have been left alone.
 
2013-01-13 09:41:06 PM

poot_rootbeer: Should they take care to introduce change minimally and gently, and for measurable benefit? Or should they dismiss paying customers who express discomfort as being "lazy" and "stupid"?


MS isn't dismissing them as lazy and stupid, the people who aren't lazy and stupid are dismissing them as lazy and stupid. BTW, you sound lazy and stupid.

/ Not an MS employee.
 
2013-01-13 09:44:37 PM

cptjeff: Telos: Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu?

You scan through the list of programs, and when you see the actual name or logo, it jogs your memory. If you don't remember the name of the program but would recognize it if you saw it, the search bar is pretty damn useless, now, isn't it?


But the start menu ISN'T a list of programs, it's a list of FOLDERS. Most often the folder is the name of the software vendor even ,not the app itself. So you're telling me that you can't remember "App" but you can remember "John's Software Company?"

Not to mention that a lot of apps have what they do in the name, so if you can type what you want to do you're fine.

Also not to mention that you can still bring up the entire list of apps in Win8 if you really, really can't remember a single letter or word from the apps name.
 
2013-01-13 09:47:20 PM

cptjeff: Telos: Flint Ironstag:

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

Actually no, that option DOES exist. Maybe not as easy to get to as it could be, but you can definitely run Win8 without using the Metro interface.

But the non metro interface is still modified in certain pointless ways that make things harder for people. The Windows 8 interface was designed by morons, how hard is that to get? Everybody hates it. Did you ever stop and think that maybe there might be a reason?


Yes, the reason being that everyone hates change. Win8 isn't the best UI out there, even for mobile/tablets. But it sure as hell isn't as bad as everyone is claiming. You've got people right now complaining about something that actually works better than the old version! If you were complaining that it's difficult and non-obvious how to close an app, for instance, I'd be right with you in complaining!

As it stands, the big complaint is that "it's different."
 
gad
2013-01-13 09:53:47 PM

LasersHurt: Windows 8 is a fine OS, and it's suffering from a HUGE amount of fear-mongering and lie-spreading. People think of it as something other than what it is.

For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


You know, I saw your Boobies then thought you might be a Windows employed troll, but really I only counted like 33 responses from you in this thread all white knighting a remarkably lame operating system which is built for a tablet and forced onto a desktop. When you have to 'figure out' how to get it to work the way you want then it's built wrong, it's bad design fixing things that weren't broken with the only 'good thing' being that it's faster than it's predecessor which should be the goal and not the one thing that is good about the system. It's just a sad useless effort and your money Microsoft would have been better spent in innovation instead of insipid and endless commercials designed to tell us we like something we clearly don't like. That saturation bombing with commercials didn't work with Romney and it had never worked with anything Windows has done. What has worked is when you produce a decent operating system. Try that next time.
 
2013-01-13 09:54:25 PM

Flint Ironstag: Generally you use a mouse to navigate and then the keyboard to work.


Not true.


Having a process where you click, type, click, type is less easy.


That's just it. With the Metro interface's searching ability, YOU NEVER HAVE TO CLICK. You can "type, type, type, type" instead. The OLD process was "click, click, click, click, type."

I have some programmes that you need to uninstall through their link to get back an install credit. Sometimes it isn't easier. And opening Add/Remove programes is quicker and easier than one click on the start menu?

Where is this magical 1-click on the start menu that automatically uninstalls the app for you? You have to click start, click applications, then click through folders. Seriously, if you need to hit their specific (badly coded) uninstaller so badly then hit Win+E and navigate to it through the file system. No different than the start menu at that point!


PCs are often buried under desks or otherwise inaccessible. A phone or tablet will usually be in your hand.

PC's are also a dying breed. 90% of people are going to be using Win8 on laptops, and the type of person who IS going to stick with a desktop rig isn't going to be bothered by a new "shut down" location.
 
2013-01-13 09:54:39 PM

phedex: I agree with the people saying that "improve things for the better".

I've had a Win8 laptop the last couple months, my previous one sponatenously died. And my verdict after 2 months of use? same complaints everyone else has. My laptop is not touch screen, I never use the metro interface, and I found a nice app (pokki) that gives me a lot of the start menu functionality that I've gotten used to over the years. I think having to do windows key + C to get to the shutdown menu is retarded. Basic functions SHOULD NOT have to require you to google them. Let alone a "power user" as I consider myself.

Now, I will say that its boots amazingly fast. It runs very well. Coming out of hibernation, for the first time ever, does not break things. Its a good looking OS. I just think they made a few too many changes to the simple things that should have been left alone.


I'm not sure if that only that way on a laptop but on my desktop you just go to the upper right corner, click on settings and the shutdown menu is there.
 
rpm
2013-01-13 10:05:56 PM

Telos: That's just it. With the Metro interface's searching ability, YOU NEVER HAVE TO CLICK. You can "type, type, type, type" instead. The OLD process was "click, click, click, click, type."


Huh? Windows key (on the keyboard), type. Works on Vista and 7, no clicks required.
 
2013-01-13 10:13:27 PM

Telos: As it stands, the big complaint is that "it's different."


No.  Its schizophrenic.  Microsoft should of gone the Apple route and made incremental changes and involve Windows 7.  It decided not to do that (not a surprise really - no real leadership at Microsoft these days).  Instead they created a stable OS that is a mess to actually use.  And corporations aren't going to go near it due to the training involved.  Microsoft is basically handing the market over to Samsung and Apple.
 
2013-01-13 10:16:20 PM

Tellingthem: I'm not sure if that only that way on a laptop but on my desktop you just go to the upper right corner, click on settings and the shutdown menu is there.


Speaking as somebody who has to do this twenty or thirty times a day on systems that often have extremely flaky mouse and video drivers, WHAT WAS WRONG WITH GLOBALLY ACCESSIBLE ALT-F4?

/never thought I'd be pining for Windows key, [TAB], S
 
2013-01-13 10:22:07 PM

rpm: Telos: That's just it. With the Metro interface's searching ability, YOU NEVER HAVE TO CLICK. You can "type, type, type, type" instead. The OLD process was "click, click, click, click, type."

Huh? Windows key (on the keyboard), type. Works on Vista and 7, no clicks required.


Sure, which is what I do too. But I was responding to a guy who think's not having the start button is the end of the world because it somehow means more clicking. It means less clicking, possibly none!
 
2013-01-13 10:32:00 PM

thrasherrr: Tellingthem: I'm not sure if that only that way on a laptop but on my desktop you just go to the upper right corner, click on settings and the shutdown menu is there.

Speaking as somebody who has to do this twenty or thirty times a day on systems that often have extremely flaky mouse and video drivers, WHAT WAS WRONG WITH GLOBALLY ACCESSIBLE ALT-F4?

/never thought I'd be pining for Windows key, [TAB], S


I have no idea, i'm not a power user by any means. I've never really used shortcuts or a windows key. I was just saying that at least on the desktop version I use i can access the shutdown menu with my mouse and a click.
 
2013-01-13 10:32:37 PM
As a 43 year old systems engineer who got his first computer in 1982 here is what I gather from this friend.

1. If apple changes their os, like moving to osx, its ok.
2. if apple adds a feature from osx to ios, they are merging operating systems(too funny) its like saying i added ford seats to a camaro and it makes the car a forchev)
3. If you do not have the brain power to learn a few changes in an operating system, then it is the companies fault.

I like OSX, but 99.9 percent of the users cannot tell you what the command line is, how to find it, but will gladly tell you it is unix and they own it.

I support all Oses because of my job, and i would rather support a linux, window, android user any day, than an apple users.  Because most apple users are white people problems and are very entitled.

I do not like some of the changes in win 8, but you know, i can use it, it is quick, and stable, and when people biatch about keyboard shortcuts, i always remind apple users about the one button mouse and keyboard shortcuts, and honestly, i have used them on both os's for years.  The keyboard shortcut was always the apple argument

As for touch screens.  I would like a touch screen for this purpose.  I will use a keyboard and mouse, but if i want to load music, media files, a video, i can do it by touching the screen.  No need for me to sit down and navigate the os.
 
2013-01-13 10:34:47 PM

Telos:
Where is this magical 1-click on the start menu that automatically uninstalls the app for you? You have to click start, click applications, then click through folders. Seriously, if you need to hit their specific (badly coded) uninstaller so badly then hit Win+E and navigate to it through the file system. No different than the start menu at that point!
Once you have clicked Start then you do not need to click again until you click on the "Uninstall whatever" option in the folder. You don't click while navigating.


PCs are often buried under desks or otherwise inaccessible. A phone or tablet will usually be in your hand.

PC's are also a dying breed. 90% of people are going to be using Win8 on laptops, and the type of person who IS going to stick with a desktop rig isn't going to be bothered by a new "shut down" location.


So you're saying W8 isn't meant for desktop PCs? I think you'll find that's what most of its critics are saying, it is a touchscreen UI not suited for desktops.
 
2013-01-13 10:35:44 PM

gingerjet: Telos: As it stands, the big complaint is that "it's different."

No.  Its schizophrenic.  Microsoft should of gone the Apple route and made incremental changes and involve Windows 7.  It decided not to do that (not a surprise really - no real leadership at Microsoft these days).  Instead they created a stable OS that is a mess to actually use.  And corporations aren't going to go near it due to the training involved.  Microsoft is basically handing the market over to Samsung and Apple.



OSX was such an incremental change was it ?  or is that what you call changing a paradigm and it was justified?
 
2013-01-13 10:38:26 PM

Telos: rpm: Telos: That's just it. With the Metro interface's searching ability, YOU NEVER HAVE TO CLICK. You can "type, type, type, type" instead. The OLD process was "click, click, click, click, type."

Huh? Windows key (on the keyboard), type. Works on Vista and 7, no clicks required.

Sure, which is what I do too. But I was responding to a guy who think's not having the start button is the end of the world because it somehow means more clicking. It means less clicking, possibly none!


So if W7 had the search by typing option then why couldn't they have left it as an option on W8?

Why take the Start button off? What actual benefit is there to not having the Start button? And having Metro as an alternative option for people who prefer it or have a touchscreen?

Since clearly Windows can have different methods happily coexisting what is the benefit to the user by taking away one method.
 
2013-01-13 10:44:32 PM

Telos: As it stands, the big complaint is that "it's different."


If you're an idiot who can't understand nuance or complexity, sure.
 
2013-01-13 10:45:27 PM

doglover: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Who do I have talk to so as I can get your job. I can shill better than you. You're too obvious.


Apart from the fact that he's totally correct.
 
2013-01-13 10:47:12 PM
if it ain't broke don't fix it
 
2013-01-13 10:59:16 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: My seven year old got it. How the fark hard is it to go to the left bottom part of the screen(not metro menu) and right farking click and get your old shiat back


So they've invented some sort of new-fangled gui that involves finding and clicking on things that aren't even there? Brilliant.

Is the charm bar some sort of play on the charm quark, where it takes you forever to figure out where it is, and you're not sure it's there once you've found it?
 
2013-01-13 11:06:37 PM

Telos: PC's are also a dying breed.


Maybe for home users who want to surf the internet and read their email this is true. For people who use their computers to do actual work, not so much.

Laptops are just underpowered PCs that have sacrificed having a decent keyboard and large screen for the sake of portability.

Tablets are great for taking to meetings or giving one-on-one presentations but are otherwise unsuited for the vast majority of business applications.
 
2013-01-13 11:18:16 PM
Payroll is due tomorrow. While the accounting department was out to lunch we replaced their desktop PCs with tablets running the new Windows 8 operating system. Let's see if they notice.
 
2013-01-13 11:24:56 PM

red5ish: Telos: PC's are also a dying breed.

Maybe for home users who want to surf the internet and read their email this is true.


Right, which is 90% of the market.


For people who use their computers to do actual work, not so much.


True, but we'll still need Windows 8 to develop software for the other 90% of people who just web surf and check email.


Laptops are just underpowered PCs that have sacrificed having a decent keyboard and large screen for the sake of portability.


Yes, and look at the desk of any high level executive. What do you see? A laptop with a docking station. Tablets aren't far off from doing the same thing, and being just as capable as a laptop.


Tablets are great for taking to meetings or giving one-on-one presentations but are otherwise unsuited for the vast majority of business applications.


Today, yes. Tomorrow, not so much.
 
2013-01-13 11:26:28 PM
Win 8 > Win 7 period.
 
2013-01-13 11:45:27 PM
There is a Microsoft employee who just did a Reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) who after listing some of the additions to Windows 8 admitted:

For a desktop user these may not be compelling reasons to upgrade

Link
 
2013-01-13 11:54:59 PM
If MS was smart, they're release an official free program that converts the OS to be exactly how Win7 was
 
2013-01-13 11:57:45 PM

cptjeff: Telos: As it stands, the big complaint is that "it's different."

If you're an idiot who can't understand nuance or complexity, sure.


Anyone biatching "you can't deal with change" needs his diaper changed.. but don't, let them soak in their own shiat.

Microsoft dumped a layer of shiat on win7 and called it win8: a glorious tiled stink covered in flies"
 
2013-01-14 12:00:01 AM

KellyX: If MS was smart, they're release an official free program that converts the OS to be exactly how Win7 was


Some companies have done exactly that. Probably friends...
 
2013-01-14 12:00:43 AM

Telos: Right, which is 90% of the market.


I suspect this number (90%) is incorrect. A lot of people have their home computer and their work computer. I suspect the real reason Microsoft is pushing a "touch-centric" OS is because they are hoping that there is going to be a gigantic market demand for tablets.

True, but we'll still need Windows 8 to develop software for the other 90% of people who just web surf and check email.
I'm pretty sure they've got those two applications already. If not, they suck.

Yes, and look at the desk of any high level executive. What do you see? A laptop with a docking station. Tablets aren't far off from doing the same thing, and being just as capable as a laptop.

Not sure how many "high level executives" do serious computing work, since they have employees doing that for them, but today I can build a desktop box that will eat a laptop's lunch for half the price.

Today, yes. Tomorrow, not so much.

I cannot predict the future. Technology is frequently surprising, but right now keyboards are better for typing, mice are more exact than fingers, ten-key, digitizers, these input devices were developed and refined for good reasons.
"They" were predicting the paperless office back in the 1980s and instead of becoming paperless, the computer printer turned us all into mini print shops. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm not holding my breath. I also wonder when people will begin to realize that carrying around their main computer (easy to drop, easily stolen) might not be such a hot idea.
 
2013-01-14 12:06:44 AM

from my blood: KellyX: If MS was smart, they're release an official free program that converts the OS to be exactly how Win7 was

Some companies have done exactly that. Probably friends...


I just mean it should be default with the software, officially made by MS and an default option turned on with the ability to go metro if ppl REALLY want to fark with it
 
2013-01-14 12:08:05 AM

Marine1:
You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.



What happens if you run metro native apps?
 
2013-01-14 12:41:21 AM

Telos: Yes, and look at the desk of any high level executive. What do you see? A laptop with a docking station. Tablets aren't far off from doing the same thing, and being just as capable as a laptop.


Docking station with external keyboard and mouse plus dual monitors.

Can your tablet do that?
 
2013-01-14 12:45:13 AM
Windows 8 is the latest of a long line of blunders by Microsoft that have confused the public. I know, because I deal with the public every day at my computer business, and did working in the industry before striking out on my own. Launching an OS called Windows 2000 and another called Windows Millennium at about the same time confused people. They used the names interchangeably, and had no idea which one they really meant. Then, they launched Windows XP and Office XP at the same time, adding to the mistaken impression the public had, and still has, that Word and Excel are included in Windows, not sold separately in a product called Office.

With Vista, removing unwanted software became a pain as add/remove programs, at the top of the list because it began with "A" was buried in the middle of a list when it became programs and features. Settings being renamed personalize was equally stupid. Even shutting down was a pain, as the power button on the start menu only puts it in standby, rather than shutting off as simple common sense would clearly dictate.

Now, nothing about how a use a PC means a damn thing any more. With Windows 8, everything has changed for no reason, and even seasoned vets need to go get a For Dummies book. It is counterintuitive and clumsy. Even if you leave metro and go to the "classic desktop", they broke it by taking away pull-down menus and forcing the ribbon on us!

Microsoft operates in an ivy tower, and has no idea how the public uses computers. That is why they can't do anything right. If we had better alternatives than Mac, an obscenely expensive boutique product, and Linux, 1000 different versions by a million undirected tinkerers, Microsoft would have gone belly up a long time ago.
 
2013-01-14 01:05:50 AM
I don't care how much you White Knight Windows 8, LasersHurt ... Clippy isn't gonna sleep with you.

/We get it ... everyone else is old and you're not
//Everyone's wrong and you're not
 
2013-01-14 01:18:33 AM
My computer executes programs, it doesn't play apps. I download free software from the internet, I don't need an app store built into the OS trying to sell me garbage, that's just not okay.

Sure there's (incomplete)workarounds to fix the godawful ui, but does it matter? Commercials for windows 8 do not show a single non touch device. It's obvious that none of the design decisions were made with any consideration for non-touch users. After all, we don't exist. So windows 8 won't exist on my PC, ever.
 
2013-01-14 01:25:18 AM

Sarsin: Me personally, I am going to ride out Windows 7 until support is dropped. I have Windows 8 in a VM to support any poor souls that venture that direction, but realistically none of the corporations I have worked with even have a beta imitative for 8 yet.


Hell, my business isn't even using 7. We're not even using close to using the latest version of IE because a few of our critical apps run in IE (... *sigh*) and thorough testing has to be done before upgrading IE to make sure the business doesn't break. We not that long ago went from old IE to one that actually has tabs. They still won't install a secondary browser like FF or Chrome.

We might be upgrading to Office 2007 soon. It's going to be hell. A bunch of people who can't remember how to do bullet points or format a column in excel, who can't find a window if it's grouped in the toolbar (if you can't see it, it doesn't exist) and you're going to change everything? The productivity crash will be enormous. These people think I'm magic because I can use alt-tab! I can't image what would happen if we tried to shift to Metro.

Which we won't, because our typical work day we always have open about four excel, outlook, dozens of pdfs, at least two IE windows, multiple word documents, and two or three java-based programmes, on two or three screens. The Metro interface and its stupid full-screen apps are literally useless, and in fact detrimental to productivity and usablity.
 
2013-01-14 01:39:56 AM

towatchoverme: don't care how much you White Knight Windows 8, LasersHurt ... Clippy isn't gonna sleep with you.


Don't be so sure.
Clippy's a slut.
 
2013-01-14 01:40:01 AM

red5ish: Telos: Right, which is 90% of the market.

I suspect this number (90%) is incorrect. A lot of people have their home computer and their work computer. I suspect the real reason Microsoft is pushing a "touch-centric" OS is because they are hoping that there is going to be a gigantic market demand for tablets.


It was hyperbole, however there already is gigantic market demand for tablets: http://www.pcworld.com/article/260183/windows_pc_sales_hit_a_low_as_ta blet_sales_soar_in_q2_canalys_says.html

Tablets are already starting "eat into" PC sales. Another article predicts that by 2016 tablet sales will overtake laptops: http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/15/tablet-computer-sales-will-overtake- notebooks-by-2016/

In fact, Gizmodo's report on laptops at CES this year is "What laptops?" http://gizmodo.com/5975016/the-best-laptops-of-ces-2013-what-laptops

Face it. Dying breed.


I'm pretty sure they've got those two applications already. If not, they suck.


So then you're saying no one needs a PC?



Not sure how many "high level executives" do serious computing work, since they have employees doing that for them, but today I can build a desktop box that will eat a laptop's lunch for half the price.


So what? Who cares? If that argument held any actual merit laptops wouldn't have been so big in the first place. Mobility counts, tablets are more mobile and rapidly becoming just as functional. Hell, think about it... those executives really don't need a laptop do they? All they do is look at a couple reports and tell their assistant to do the typing. Seems perfect for a tablet, right?

I cannot predict the future. Technology is frequently surprising, but right now keyboards are better for typing, mice are more exact than fingers, ten-key, digitizers, these input devices were developed and refined for good reasons.


And what, you think it's impossible to hook a keyboard up to a tablet? Or a mouse?

Do you know what the real barrier is to people using tablets as laptop replacements? The simple fact that the tablet vendors haven't done a good job of creating a good docking station, peripherals and making the OS work well from both interfaces.

Oh wait, that's exactly what MS is trying to do! (Maybe not succeeding, but certainly trying.)


"They" were predicting the paperless office back in the 1980s and instead of becoming paperless, the computer printer turned us all into mini print shops. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm not holding my breath.


Again, tablets are powerful enough to do all the work most office-drones do. Programmers, engineers and graphic artists are probably the only people who will continue to need more for work. Gamers will of course want good rigs for games, but they are even starting to build gaming-oriented tablets.


I also wonder when people will begin to realize that carrying around their main computer (easy to drop, easily stolen) might not be such a hot idea.


But people already do that, and have been for decades. The only change is it will be lighter.
 
2013-01-14 01:40:15 AM
My laptop has Windows 7 on it. It came with Vista, but was upgraded later. It's going to be six soon, so I don't think I really care about starting fresh again.

My phone? Maybe, but I was able to get a pretty good Android phone (LG Viper 4G LTE if you're wondering), and I love it.

My next laptop will have whatever OS is on it when I buy it. It doesn't really matter once I get Chrome open unless I want to play a game or something like that.
 
2013-01-14 01:40:26 AM

DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.


Indeed. When I buy a car, the steering wheel should be a perfect circle and below it, the gas pedal should be on the right and the brake pedal on the left. If the pedal positions were to be swapped and the steering "wheel" became a triangle, I would be quite irritated.
 
2013-01-14 01:42:43 AM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

Indeed. When I buy a car, the steering wheel should be a perfect circle and below it, the gas pedal should be on the right and the brake pedal on the left. If the pedal positions were to be swapped and the steering "wheel" became a triangle, I would be quite irritated.


I take it you haven't driven many hybrids or cars with electronic transmissions? Not quite that drastic, but still a change.
 
2013-01-14 01:49:10 AM
I'm browsing Fark from my Surface, so I'm getting a real kick out these replies...

/Microsoft employee
//My opinions don't represent Microsoft
///Still, Windows 8 is pretty freakin' sweet.
 
2013-01-14 02:01:02 AM
Telos:

Blech. I won't even bother attempting to debate this, as you won't listen, and I don't care enough.
Regardless, we've heard the same tripe you're spouting now many times in the past about different technologies. All of them were wrong, and so are you. The desktop (or even laptop) computer will not be replaced by farking tablets. (at least not until tablets have the power and storage of a desktop, which is many years off; and in that time desktops will likely be equally more powerful than now as well)
Just stop trying to convince us. We've heard it all before. It has yet to happen.
 
2013-01-14 02:09:20 AM
They all work jut fine.
All operating systems work fine.
Unless you're an uber-hipster or an old person.
 
2013-01-14 02:32:27 AM

ReverendJasen: Telos:

Blech. I won't even bother attempting to debate this, as you won't listen, and I don't care enough.
Regardless, we've heard the same tripe you're spouting now many times in the past about different technologies. All of them were wrong, and so are you. The desktop (or even laptop) computer will not be replaced by farking tablets. (at least not until tablets have the power and storage of a desktop, which is many years off; and in that time desktops will likely be equally more powerful than now as well)
Just stop trying to convince us. We've heard it all before. It has yet to happen.


Right... because storage isn't being moved into the cloud, and CPU speed hasn't stagnated. Keep your head in the sand, man... it should work out well for you.

Laptops/desktops might not go away... but they aren't going to be the primary computer either.
 
2013-01-14 02:38:54 AM
How about an OS where the user decides how it'll look and behave? Be trivial to create, but MS with Ballmer running it is almost actively hostile to anything that would give people more control of their own experience.
 
2013-01-14 02:40:43 AM

Telos: So then you're saying no one needs a PC?


If your tablet is powerful enough and you have a docking station (hey, that's cheating!) then (almost) nobody needs a PC. That would be very cool, but we're not there yet. Performance has to go up and price has to come down.

For all I know someone is working on a processor that can go from a low-voltage under-clocked state to a higher performance state when docked to an external power supply and cooling system. But I digress.
 
2013-01-14 02:40:59 AM
Keep your head in the clouds, kid. You're not the first, you won't be the last.
I'm basing my prediction on experience. Yeah, I know that never means shiat to people who don't have it. You think you know it all and just can't be wrong. I was like that once.

I'll be sitting by the river and wave when you float by.
 
2013-01-14 02:44:51 AM

WhyteRaven74: How about an OS where the user decides how it'll look and behave?


Only problem is, most people can't be bothered to figure out how to run Windows apps in Linux.
:)
 
2013-01-14 03:59:21 AM

ReverendJasen: Keep your head in the clouds, kid. You're not the first, you won't be the last.
I'm basing my prediction on experience. Yeah, I know that never means shiat to people who don't have it. You think you know it all and just can't be wrong. I was like that once.

I'll be sitting by the river and wave when you float by.


Too late, I think we've already passed you. Somewhere in all that "experience" you missed seeing something obvious: People want lighter and smaller. The only people I even know with desktops these days are programmers and gamers. Everyone else uses a laptop. They'll switch to just a tablet when they can get a good portable keyboard, and Powerpoint works on it.
 
2013-01-14 04:06:19 AM
Telos: It was hyperbole, however there already is gigantic market demand for tablets: http://www.pcworld.com/article/260183/windows_pc_sales_hit_a_low_as_ta blet_sales_soar_in_q2_canalys_says.html

Tablets are already starting "eat into" PC sales. Another article predicts that by 2016 tablet sales will overtake laptops: http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/15/tablet-computer-sales-will-overtake- notebooks-by-2016/

In fact, Gizmodo's report on laptops at CES this year is "What laptops?" http://gizmodo.com/5975016/the-best-laptops-of-ces-2013-what-laptops

Face it. Dying breed.


Sales is one thing. Machines in use is way different. Sales of tablets are rocketing because they are new and the change in features and spec year to year is significant while PCs and laptops have matured and there is little reason to throw away a two year old laptop for this years model.

Sales of PCs have slumped because there are millions out there that do not need replacing, not because people are getting rid of them. Most tablet sales are for people to use away from where they use their PC or laptop, be it on the train or on the sofa. Tablets are in addition to their "main" computer. If you can fine anyone who has actually thrown away their PC or laptop and is now using a tablet only I will be quite surprised.

In short, PCs and laptops will still be around for a long time.
 
2013-01-14 04:07:03 AM

ReverendJasen: Only problem is, most people can't be bothered to figure out how to run Windows apps in Linux.


I was wondering who'd mention Linux ;)
 
2013-01-14 05:57:49 AM
Yes I suppose someday tablets will be as powerful as PC's. Which is fine if you have $2000 to spend on the thing. Since I don't, I'll stick with my "antique" desktop with its 23 inch screen, surround sound, and nice comfy mouse and keyboard.

And yes, Win 7.
 
2013-01-14 06:09:06 AM

Flint Ironstag:
Sales is one thing. Machines in use is way different. Sales of tablets are rocketing because they are new and the change in features and spec year to year is significant while PCs and laptops have matured and there is little reason to throw away a two year old laptop for this years model.

Sales of PCs have slumped because there are millions out there that do not need replacing, not because people are getting rid of them.


Ahh, but you're missing something with that statement: If PCs were still necessary and useful, new PCs would still be sold to people who didn't previously have a PC. Instead, as I mentioned earlier, what I see is people not having a desktop PC. They only work on a laptop. As the power and usability of tablets catches up, these same people will just work with tablets instead.


Most tablet sales are for people to use away from where they use their PC or laptop, be it on the train or on the sofa. Tablets are in addition to their "main" computer. If you can fine anyone who has actually thrown away their PC or laptop and is now using a tablet only I will be quite surprised.


I can easily find you people who only have a tablet. Hell, I've tried getting my mom to use computers for decades. Her PC is sitting in my basement right now, but she is happy as hell to use the tablet I got her! My g/f was trying to decide on a new laptop, and just getting a tablet was a serious consideration for her.

I doubt most people would throw out their laptops. But when their laptop finally dies they'll look at the tablet and have to really ask themselves if they need to replace the laptop.


In short, PCs and laptops will still be around for a long time.


Sure they will! Just like you can still get tape drives. They just won't be what the average person uses.
 
2013-01-14 06:13:13 AM
If you own a touchscreen device, and like Windows, upgrade to Win8.
If you own a regular laptop or desktop, do not.
If you are buying a new computer, do not avoid Win8 - just get the computer you want, and if it has Win8 on it, tweak it a little to make it exactly like Win 7, if you need to.
This is a lot of fuss about nothing, except that MS was dumb to relase the X86 version at first - they should have just led off with the ARM powered Surface pads, and Win8 for ARM devices. One name for two operating systems is confusing.
 
2013-01-14 06:21:41 AM
speaking from experience, my relatives HATE windows 8, and they're all casual users you would think would like this kind of stuff

makes me think the designers have no idea what people actually like in an OS, did they do no market testing? did their children design the layout?
 
2013-01-14 06:53:46 AM
Part of an horrendously long 20 yr tradition, MS makes a good OS, follows if with shiat. Support one historic OS and make alternates banal.
 
2013-01-14 09:02:21 AM

ReverendJasen: WhyteRaven74: How about an OS where the user decides how it'll look and behave?

Only problem is, most people can't be bothered to figure out how to run Windows apps in Linux.
:)


The other problem is once you get past Wines asshole interface using a standard popular 20 years ago most Windows apps run like shiat on Linux. I love Linux and run a Debian Mint machine myself but anyone who thinks Wine and virtualization is the answer to everything is a delusional asshole.
 
2013-01-14 09:03:23 AM
I think it says something about the dominance of the windows platform that so many people seem to be emotionally disturbed by minor UI changes in windows 8. I used it, it was a bit of an adjustment, the back end is marginally faster and I like the backup and restore changes. To me it was worth a modest fee and putting up with the adjustment to a tweaked UI. It's just a damn OS folks. In a lot of ways it's the least important thing about your computing experience.
 
2013-01-14 09:25:11 AM

red5ish: Telos: PC's are also a dying breed.

Maybe for home users who want to surf the internet and read their email this is true. For people who use their computers to do actual work, not so much.


The latest analysis out of Gartner agrees that PC's are taking the back seat for most users.

Analysts now appear to be shifting their basic premise about how consumers and businesses will use tablets in relation to PCs, says Mikako Kitagawa, principal analyst at Gartner.

"Tablets have dramatically changed the device landscape for PCs, not so much by 'cannibalizing' PC sales, but by causing PC users to shift consumption to tablets rather than replacing older PCs," she writes. "Whereas as once we imagined a world in which individual users would have both a PC and a tablet as personal devices, we increasingly suspect that most individuals will shift consumption activity to a personal tablet, and perform creative and administrative tasks on a shared PC. There will be some individuals who retain both, but we believe they will be exception and not the norm."


It looks like the future for most people will be a personal tablet for nearly all uses and then a communal desktop machine shared by the household.

This apparently explains Microsoft's drive to FUBAR Windows in an attempt to transition into the tablet space.

They've been wildly successful... at pissing off desktop users.
 
2013-01-14 10:03:15 AM
Ok. Sell me on Windows 8. What makes it worth the money to upgrade from Win7 'Home Premium'? The machine plays video games (mainly DX9 ones), my browser is Chrome, I use Gmail for e-mail...

Beyond the interface change, sell me Windows 8, what makes it worth the money compared to my existing Win7 license?
 
2013-01-14 10:20:00 AM

Vaneshi: Beyond the interface change, sell me Windows 8, what makes it worth the money compared to my existing Win7 license?


If your current setup is working just fine for you why would you change?
 
2013-01-14 10:27:49 AM

Vaneshi: Ok. Sell me on Windows 8. What makes it worth the money to upgrade from Win7 'Home Premium'? The machine plays video games (mainly DX9 ones), my browser is Chrome, I use Gmail for e-mail...

Beyond the interface change, sell me Windows 8, what makes it worth the money compared to my existing Win7 license?


Nothing. I have both W7 and W8 conventional laptops and cannot detect ANY advantage in experience or performance to 8.
 
2013-01-14 10:31:49 AM
The only reason I bought Windows 8 is because a copy of Windows was finally cheap enough to convince me to just buy it instead of pirate it. I never, ever in the 35 years on this planet paid real money for a version of Microsoft Windows. The $40 price tag was attractive though.
 
2013-01-14 11:37:51 AM

Telos: Ahh, but you're missing something with that statement: If PCs were still necessary and useful, new PCs would still be sold to people who didn't previously have a PC. Instead, as I mentioned earlier, what I see is people not having a desktop PC. They only work on a laptop. As the power and usability of tablets catches up, these same people will just work with tablets instead.


PCs are harder to find in box stores. Go to a Best Buy and the majority of systems you see will be laptops/netbooks instead of tower PCs. PCs are lasting longer and/or moving more to an enthusiast, build-it-yourself market. That's not dying and it won't go away for years. Not until laptops can match the power, moddability and lower cost of a desktop. You won't ever see tablets replace PCs for people who require what a PC offers. You will see tablets replace PCs in a more casual market. For instance, my mother, who was fairly illiterate when it came to computers has a tablet. Its a lot easier for her to play some casual games, listen to music, read a book, browse the web. But she's not going to be doing a lot of typing. She's not going to be playing high end games where she requires a mouse/keyboard combination. She can get by with a low power system like a tablet for a couple hundred dollars instead of buying a budget desktop for $400 or so.

As a programmer and a gamer, a tablet to me is a toy. Granted, due to money and space in my home, I have a laptop so a tablet is not even interesting to me right now, but I could see how someone with a desktop might want to sync a tablet to the desktop so they can do some things while away from their "Home Base." A tablet is still never going to be useful for playing Call of Duty or Dishonored or WoW or anything like that.

 

Telos: I doubt most people would throw out their laptops. But when their laptop finally dies they'll look at the tablet and have to really ask themselves if they need to replace the laptop.


Again, looking at the majority, this is a possibility. But again, tablets are not going to replace laptops or desktops for the people who need those devices. Tablets are going to be more enticing to the people who DON'T need laptops or desktops and only had those devices because a tablet wasn't available. The more casual user.

jso2897: If you own a touchscreen device, and like Windows, upgrade to Win8.
If you own a regular laptop or desktop, do not.
If you are buying a new computer, do not avoid Win8 - just get the computer you want, and if it has Win8 on it, tweak it a little to make it exactly like Win 7, if you need to.
This is a lot of fuss about nothing, except that MS was dumb to relase the X86 version at first - they should have just led off with the ARM powered Surface pads, and Win8 for ARM devices. One name for two operating systems is confusing.


I wouldn't go out of my way to tell people that they should absolutely upgrade to Windows 8. I would tell them to give the new interface some time if they get a new system with it pre-installed. But, I would also say that if your going to try and make it look exactly like Windows 7, you are probably not doing yourself and favors. Keep in mind, when the mouse was introduced, people freaked. They didn't know if they were supposed to hold it up to the screen or talk into it. Through every iteration of Windows, people have chided design decisions behind changes that have stuck with the operating system to present. When XP came out, people insisted that there was no reason for all the color and why couldn't it just be flat and grey like 98 or 2000? Someone above mentioned all these changes that people bashed in Vista, but the same changes remained for Windows 7 and Windows 8 and they don't continue to be a complaint because they've been adopted.

Microsoft did take a gamble by forcing this change upon their users. It took me a few hours to get acclimated with the changes and change how I used a laptop. I never used the Windows key until I started using Windows 8. Chances are, I could probably use it to open my start menu since Windows 95. The search feature was introduced in vista, so I could have been easily searching for programs I wanted, say Winamp, with 6 keys. But, I, like most people, was used to the visual menus. So using Windows 7, I'm going to get to Winamp several different ways:

Menu: Using mouse I click the start menu, then assuming the program isn't pinned or in my most recently used, I have to click All Programs and then scroll or locate the Winamp folder, click to open the folder and then click on the program to launch it. Granted, you can eliminate a few clicks by pinning the program or by having the menus auto open when you hover over them, but I don't.

Search: I hit the windows key and then I type 'wina' and Windows has already found the link to the program I want and I click it.

Windows 8 Metro UI: If I use this program frequently, this method is by far the easiest. I can either use my mouse to hover over the general location where the start bar/button normally is and it brings up a little Metro UI popup (clicking it opens the Metro UI, which in reality is a full screen Start menu), or I can hit the windows key. If I have pinned the program and moved it to the front of my list, I can click the title, which will be right in the forefront to launch winamp. Its the exact same amount of keystrokes/mouseclicks that the regular start menu used if you had it pinned.

However, if you don't have the program pinned, you enter the Metro UI and then you scroll to the right, and unless you have unpinned completely, just click the tile. You've added a scroll from the above method, but its still not that bad. If you've completely unpinned it, then you have to right click and click on the All Apps button and then search though a much larger list of your programs to find the tile. But if your going to use the program, why not pin it to your start menu and move its tile to somewhere that you can find it quickly.

Personally, once you start thinking of the Metro UI as a full screen start menu, you'll notice that the difference between Windows 8 and Windows 7 are not all that crazy for the end user. Metro Apps should be understood as small programs that will behave more for tablets than regular desktop/laptops, so unless you intend to use the tablet version, the "legacy" program is still a better option for desktop/laptop users. The real meat and potatoes should be what new changes Windows 8 brings to your operating system to make it better overall, things that we'll be continuing to see in the future. These are the things that the average user will be mostly oblivious to but still make their experience better.

HybridBoot, which "hibernates" the kernal on shutdown, making your system boot up much quicker from a cold boot.

File History, allowing you to revert back to previous versions of a file from a backup media.

Storage Spaces, nice for desktop users with multiple hard drives, as you can combine them into virtual drives and specify mirroring and parity. Basically creating a virtual RAID array.

What I also find nice, is that since the boot times are so quick and you often cannot hit the button to launch bios before boot, Windows 8 includes a function to launch into advanced settings. This makes it harder for someone to hijack your system by playing with BIOS settings because they need to boot your system, get into an administration account, select the advanced boot settings, and then reboot. On old systems, we could easily launch into the BIOS and wreak havok because a majority of computer owners never password protect the BIOS.

Yes, Microsoft is trying to push users to adopt their brand, but that's no different from what Apple has been doing for years. Windows 8 and forward is going to seecompatibility with their computers, tablets, phones and the Xbox get more deeply intertwined. Moving to the "Microsoft Account" helps to blanket settings across your devices, and with some of the new Windows 8 apps, you can use your computer/laptop/tablet/phone to control your Xbox.

There is a learning curve here, but innovation is sometimes about trial and error.
 
2013-01-14 11:59:15 AM

Celerian: There is a learning curve here, but innovation is sometimes about trial and error.


The "trial and error" is supposed to happen in user studies when the software is in beta, or even pre-beta, condition. You give the product to representative users to try out for a while, find out what they like and don't like, and change the product so that you're giving the greatest number of users what they like and the fewest users what they hate.

I can't fathom how Microsoft could have gone through a usability analysis process and reached the conclusion that Metro was release-ready.
 
2013-01-14 12:15:21 PM

poot_rootbeer: Celerian: There is a learning curve here, but innovation is sometimes about trial and error.

The "trial and error" is supposed to happen in user studies when the software is in beta, or even pre-beta, condition. You give the product to representative users to try out for a while, find out what they like and don't like, and change the product so that you're giving the greatest number of users what they like and the fewest users what they hate.

I can't fathom how Microsoft could have gone through a usability analysis process and reached the conclusion that Metro was release-ready.


It is possible that they DID and the final result is what got released. Keep in mind that even with user studies, some of the design decisions are going to ultimately be left alone in favor of the company's agenda.

I think about how I, too, would have loved to see the ability to completely turn off the Metro UI and just have a start menu, but then I realized that I wouldn't be using my computer any differently. Maybe most people don't really WANT different, but I actually enjoyed the challenge, and I still have fun when I come across something new that I didn't realize before. Just after having used the system for two months now, I can't honestly say that my system is HARDER to use and I have a reason to go back to Windows 7. And that was the tipping point for me. I got the laptop and I said, "Well, from what I've heard I'm not expecting to LOVE windows 8, so its a good thing I have a copy of Windows 7 sitting in my closet. If I can't stand the new OS, I'll wipe it and go back." The more I used it, the easier it became to use and the more I learned about features I had previously ignored, and it also had advancements to the inner workings of the operating system that I would lose if I went back. Given time, the initial negatives disappeared and the positives remained, so I stick by Windows 8 as being a sold operating system once you get past the learning curve. Many users will not want to bother, and I'm sure Microsoft was aware of that. I have yet to meet someone who has actively TRIED to use and like the new system and hasn't. I have met tons of people who expected to hate it, saw things were changed slightly, and biatched about it needing to go back to familiarity.
 
2013-01-14 12:22:48 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.


The Tiles are completely useless. There is no easy way to manuver like in previous versions on windows.

And to the people that think it is stable? Go into you system logs and see all of the shiat happening behind the scenes..... just a matter of time before you get a critical error....... like if you plug something into USB while it is going into power down hibernate mode. Yep that was a good one. Good news is I lost all of the tiles when it happened! WOOT!
 
2013-01-14 12:34:41 PM

shifter_: And to the people that think it is stable? Go into you system logs and see all of the shiat happening behind the scenes..... just a matter of time before you get a critical error....... like if you plug something into USB while it is going into power down hibernate mode. Yep that was a good one. Good news is I lost all of the tiles when it happened! WOOT!


On a similar note, apparently you can BSOD (black, in this case) Windows Phone 8 and have it ask you to insert a CD.

Probably not all too common, but still amusing
 
2013-01-14 01:53:01 PM
MightyPez: On a similar note, apparently you can BSOD (black, in this case) Windows Phone 8 and have it ask you to insert a CD.

Except that is not a BSOD, it is the Boot Loader. Apparently the owner of the phone was flashing, screwed something up, and got the standard Boot Loader error message.
 
2013-01-14 02:58:45 PM
I think the real problem with windows 8 is that the program icons and widgets don't have a complex enough "appearance" sequence. Back in the mid 90's, when clicking the start button, you instantly saw the contents of the menu. Eventually this was upgraded to an animated scroll up of the menu contents. This was a nice feature as it allowed you to catch your breath momentarily while waiting for the icons to appear. Later versions of windows replaced this with a fade. It gave the same refreshing wait time to see the menu contents, but in a different flavor that made the experience exciting and new. Now with windows 8 we have nice scrolling, zooming, and fading effect as well as a slightly increased delay time for the contents to appear. What I would really like to see Microsoft do is take it to the next level. I'd like it if when you right clicked an icon, little animated robots (with big cute eyes) ran out onto the desktop and started to build the menu. It would be funny if some of the robots slipped or made mistakes that other robots had to fix. For instance, one robot could misspell the word 'properties' at the bottom of the menu and another robot could smack him (in a cute way) and fix his mistake. Then when they are finished building the menu they could join hands and dance around the menu box.
 
2013-01-14 03:14:45 PM
Apart from the usual teething problems-two different browsers, finding the new locations of stuff like power buttons, etc-the real issue I've been seeing on my new Windows 8 laptop seems to be rare; it switches to Metro randomly. In the middle of typing something into a search bar, for instance. Super duper frustrating.
 
2013-01-14 04:06:55 PM

WxAxGxS: cmunic8r99: When they introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, people biatched about it, too. Yet, I don't think it slowed adoption much, and the interface has stuck around for a while.

The ribbon is awful. Can anyone explain to me why they removed the double-click feature for bringing up object properties? And then even when you open up the object properties they broke everything down into separate tabs. Everything takes 2-3 times as long, particularly since I have to translate every pictograph into english. That "size and position" button? Just kidding. It's just size. You have to click an extra button to get to position. Sure, there's plenty of white space to include both, but that would be too easy.

And I am always pausing to figure out which little GIF houses the feature I used to be able to access with a single key combination or at most two clicks. I'll take drop-down menus any day with a shortcut bar, but why can't they at least let us remove all the pictographs from the ribbon? They waste so much space and distract from finding what I actually want.

There were plenty of improvements from 2003 to 2007/2010, but that ribbon is the worst possible change for a user who does anything but make middle school quality presentations.


Ubit Menu for Office 2007-10. It doesn't address all your complaints, but it gets a lot of them.

/the Ribbon is AIDS in digital form
//how the fark does throwing EVERYTHING at you in a bar full of differently sized & shaped icons, bogarting a quarter of the screen, make things easier?
 
2013-01-14 04:18:46 PM

Marine1: 3. They're changing the mouse-keyboard paradigm? Good. Windows 8 has forced OEMs to try new designs and has revolutionized product offerings across the board. As a developer, I'm excited to take advantage of the changes offered.


Well, as an end user who has to spend 40+ hours a week manipulating, merging, and analyzing 700 MB data files, I hope the OEMs continue to tell MS to fark off and die. Some of us use computers for real work, not (just) playing Angry Birds and watching pr0n.
 
2013-01-14 04:33:01 PM

Marine1: oh_please: Flint Ironstag: Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option?

Because MS is desperate for market share in phones/tablets, and by forcing a mobile UI to the PC crowd, is gambling that they'll stay with it down the road. It might work.

In the meantime, they're pissing off a whole lot of people.

They're pissing off idiots. That's all. And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.


I would love to know who you develop for, so I can go out of my way to never, ever buy one of their products. What a sanctimonious prick you are. "The whole world hates W8, except for me and the 2 other shills in this thread? Clearly the problem is with the world!"
 
2013-01-14 04:53:05 PM

Egoy3k: It's just a damn OS folks. In a lot of ways it's the least important thing about your computing experience.


No, considering it's what makes the computer "go", it's arguably the MOST important part of the computing experience. That's like saying the engine is the least important part of the driving experience.
 
2013-01-14 06:43:07 PM

extroverted_suicide: Some of us use computers for real work, not (just) playing Angry Birds and watching pr0n.


What about Angry Bird pr0n?

Not looking for Rule 34.
 
2013-01-14 08:06:37 PM
i bought a new windows 8 machine 2 weeks ago. i returned it for a full refund within 5 days and have my first apple product, a macbook air.

the apple product i took out of the box and was able to get work shiat done. the windows 8 machine may as well have had chineese letters on the keyboard..

im pissed off that my work laptop crapped out, im 3 days behind in my work, and the new machine i get with the latest and greatest windows version has me scratching my head trying to figure out how to turn the thing off.

one of the 1st things i did was google 'windows 8 power off".. screw that.

i get that the fark geeeks think me weak for getting beat by that new machine, but i dont have the time or inclination to noodle through when i was very happy with win 7 and the look of windows for the past decade.

screw microsoft. im joe average, and if i hated windows 8 so much that i returned it in less than a week than this version will be a colossal failure, no matter what the fark geeks think.
 
2013-01-14 11:30:34 PM

Flint Ironstag: viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.

I think the $40 upgrade offer is still valid until the end of January. I went from XP to W8 and am very happy, once I installed Classic Shell. Try it and see, you might get on with it without Classic Shell but if you need it it's free. Start 8 is similar and only costs $5.
If you have a fairly modern dual core mobo/CPU then definitely go for it. XP just couldn't run dual core processors properly. W8 is far faster, smoother and has lots of neat tools like automatic backup and restore options.



I'd upgrade to windows 8 only to downgrade to windows 7.
 
2013-01-15 03:29:31 AM

feelslikerain: i bought a new windows 8 machine 2 weeks ago. i returned it for a full refund within 5 days and have my first apple product, a macbook air.

the apple product i took out of the box and was able to get work shiat done. the windows 8 machine may as well have had chineese letters on the keyboard..

im pissed off that my work laptop crapped out, im 3 days behind in my work, and the new machine i get with the latest and greatest windows version has me scratching my head trying to figure out how to turn the thing off.

one of the 1st things i did was google 'windows 8 power off".. screw that.

i get that the fark geeeks think me weak for getting beat by that new machine, but i dont have the time or inclination to noodle through when i was very happy with win 7 and the look of windows for the past decade.

screw microsoft. im joe average, and if i hated windows 8 so much that i returned it in less than a week than this version will be a colossal failure, no matter what the fark geeks think.


Your shift key is broken.
 
2013-01-15 06:30:30 AM

viscountalpha: Flint Ironstag: viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.

I think the $40 upgrade offer is still valid until the end of January. I went from XP to W8 and am very happy, once I installed Classic Shell. Try it and see, you might get on with it without Classic Shell but if you need it it's free. Start 8 is similar and only costs $5.
If you have a fairly modern dual core mobo/CPU then definitely go for it. XP just couldn't run dual core processors properly. W8 is far faster, smoother and has lots of neat tools like automatic backup and restore options.


I'd upgrade to windows 8 only to downgrade to windows 7.


The upgrade offer doesn't include the downgrade to 7 option. AFAIK only the full price licence does.

Just get Classic Shell. It's free and 8 runs faster.
 
2013-01-15 06:31:33 AM

styckx: feelslikerain: i bought a new windows 8 machine 2 weeks ago. i returned it for a full refund within 5 days and have my first apple product, a macbook air.

the apple product i took out of the box and was able to get work shiat done. the windows 8 machine may as well have had chineese letters on the keyboard..

im pissed off that my work laptop crapped out, im 3 days behind in my work, and the new machine i get with the latest and greatest windows version has me scratching my head trying to figure out how to turn the thing off.

one of the 1st things i did was google 'windows 8 power off".. screw that.

i get that the fark geeeks think me weak for getting beat by that new machine, but i dont have the time or inclination to noodle through when i was very happy with win 7 and the look of windows for the past decade.

screw microsoft. im joe average, and if i hated windows 8 so much that i returned it in less than a week than this version will be a colossal failure, no matter what the fark geeks think.

Your shift key is broken.


Apple haven't invented the shift key yet.
 
2013-01-15 11:40:24 AM

BizarreMan: extroverted_suicide: Some of us use computers for real work, not (just) playing Angry Birds and watching pr0n.

What about Angry Bird pr0n?

Not looking for Rule 34.


Of course you're not.

(But don't worry, NO EXCEPTIONS)
 
2013-01-15 02:36:47 PM

extroverted_suicide: Egoy3k: It's just a damn OS folks. In a lot of ways it's the least important thing about your computing experience.

No, considering it's what makes the computer "go", it's arguably the MOST important part of the computing experience. That's like saying the engine is the least important part of the driving experience.


I'm way late to this but you cannot honestly say that, skype, webbrowsing (including facebook and webmail), instant messaging, word processing, spreadsheets, and any of the other most common tasks performed on a computer have anything to do with the OS that is running the program or the OS.

Almost everything that the vast majority of people do these days is based in their browser, to them their OS is just where their browser icon lives and that's about it. I didn't say that the OS was unimportant just that it doesn't have much bearing on your experience with using the computer.

Using your car analogy the OS wouldn't be the engine, that is the motherboard, RAM, and CPU combination, as that's what gives the computer the power to compute, the OS is the ECM. If I swapped out your ECM for one with slightly different one you'd notice for sure but the car would still get you from A to B and after a couple of days you wouldn't notice the different acceleration behavior and shifting etc.
 
2013-01-15 03:31:05 PM
So what have we learned here?

1: Win 8 is not such a terrible system for most power users, unfortunately, most users defending Win 8 admitted that it was not a pleasant experience at first (aside from a few MS shills).

2: It's horribly unintuitive for anyone who has used a Windows machine for a while. If you have to Google how to do basic tasks, such as close a farking program, that's a problem.

3. If you've never used a computer in your life, you may like it, because there's nothing to unlearn.

4. The Linux folks just aren't trolling like they used to.

5. Tech support people are actively encouraging their clients to stay away from 8, because they don't want the farking nightmares.

6. Win 8 is sorta like a car that either doesn't have a steering wheel...or has the pedals in the wrong place...or GODDAMNIT NANA PRESS THE FARKING WINDOWS KEY LIKE I TOLD YOU TEN TIMES...WHAT ARE YOU PRESSING? NO, THE ONE NEXT TO ALT...NO, THAT'S THE SPACEBAR! LOOK, YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU AND I'M YOUR SPECIAL LITTLE PUNKIN BUT GODDAMNARRRGH
 
2013-01-15 04:53:25 PM

Egoy3k: I'm way late to this but you cannot honestly say that, skype, webbrowsing (including facebook and webmail), instant messaging, word processing, spreadsheets, and any of the other most common tasks performed on a computer have anything to do with the OS that is running the program or the OS.


Yes, actually. If you know anything about how computers work, you know that the OS is what really does most of the work and it can have a huge effect on how programs run. It isn't just the interface you use to launch apps, it's the way those apps use your system resources.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-01-15 07:56:38 PM

saintstryfe: Well, remember, Apple did this too, in 2001 when they released OS X 10.1. They completely overhauled it to the point older apps only worked in a weird compatibility mode. It was a strange transition - especially if you used big Apple apps like Photoshop which struggled and hemmed and hawed about getting compatible.


Yes, but they did it because they changed their hardware so the OS had to be rewritten to accommodate it.  Essentially they changed the entire system for the better.  The hardware was different the operating system was rewritten from scratch YET it wasn't so different that the user of the previous OS had difficultly with it.   I was using MAC's then and owned a MAC on both sides of the change over.  It's not remotely the same.
 
2013-01-16 08:35:03 AM

Telos: Egoy3k: I'm way late to this but you cannot honestly say that, skype, webbrowsing (including facebook and webmail), instant messaging, word processing, spreadsheets, and any of the other most common tasks performed on a computer have anything to do with the OS that is running the program or the OS.

Yes, actually. If you know anything about how computers work, you know that the OS is what really does most of the work and it can have a huge effect on how programs run. It isn't just the interface you use to launch apps, it's the way those apps use your system resources.


Really? So you mean to say that thuis part of my post that you must have missed was completely correct?

I didn't say that the OS was unimportant just that it doesn't have much bearing on your experience with using the computer.

I know how it works, you seem to as well, as does almost everyone else in this thread. Grandma and Dave in the shipping department don't know, don't care, and can't tell the difference. They just want to look up recipes online and send Facebook messages to girls with hot profile pictures. They use software made for wide audiences that works good enough for them on either of the two major operating systems. They don't care how much memory a program is using, they don't care how efficient the OS is at common tasks. As long as they can see picture of their grand-kids and browse youporn they are happy. When they can't do those things they don't find out that operating system X doesn't handle system resources efficiently, they go buy a new computer because this one is 'broke'.
 
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