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(KATU)   The reason Windows 8 isn't catching on? Customers are "confused". I think the word they want is "baffled"   (katu.com) divider line 335
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4606 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-13 07:29:46 PM  
What is the improvement from 7 to 8?

What do I get for the investment of my time in learning a new GUI.

And being 'faster' is not the answer. It could have been made faster and not changed the interface.

I haven't been hands on for more than a few minutes so I really haven't seen any improvements but there must be some.

1) I hate things that work by mouse overs. Annoying as hell.
2) I do not want to type the name of a program to run it. If I wanted to do that I'd use a CLI. Most of the time I can't remember the name of the program.
3) I do not want my GUI elements rearranging them selfs without me directly moving them [Not counting adding new software type rearrangements]. I truly detested the 'smart menus'. I remember things spatially so I want things to stay where I put them.

The 'Start' button works ok. I don't see the putting everything on the desktop as an improvement.

And the killer problem for 'Metro' is that you can't resize your windows to your own preferences. That right there means I would never use it
 
2013-01-13 07:33:22 PM  

CujoQuarrel: What is the improvement from 7 to 8?

What do I get for the investment of my time in learning a new GUI.

And being 'faster' is not the answer. It could have been made faster and not changed the interface.

I haven't been hands on for more than a few minutes so I really haven't seen any improvements but there must be some.

1) I hate things that work by mouse overs. Annoying as hell.
2) I do not want to type the name of a program to run it. If I wanted to do that I'd use a CLI. Most of the time I can't remember the name of the program.
3) I do not want my GUI elements rearranging them selfs without me directly moving them [Not counting adding new software type rearrangements]. I truly detested the 'smart menus'. I remember things spatially so I want things to stay where I put them.

The 'Start' button works ok. I don't see the putting everything on the desktop as an improvement.

And the killer problem for 'Metro' is that you can't resize your windows to your own preferences. That right there means I would never use it


You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.
 
2013-01-13 07:33:50 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Telos: What if Honda decided to "unify" their car and bike controls? Bought out their latest car that had handlebars, twist grip gas, hand brakes and foot operated gear change, and expected car drivers who had never driven a bike to work it out? Would you post "Jeez, it's not rocket science! To change gear just grip the lever on the handlebars and press that pedal with your foot! It's just as easy!"?

/Loves W8.
//With Classic Shell.

Let's put it another way. The original cars had no mirrors, windshields, or seatbelts and you had to turn a crank in the back in order to get them to start. Should cars still look like that, just so we don't change the UI?

Mirrors help you see, and were an addition. Windshields keep your face from freezing and were an addition. Seatbelts save your life and were an addition.

Removing the start button, and its hierarchical program menu, is taking away a feature.

What does Metro actually add? Mirrors, windscreens and seatbelts all added a useful function. What does removing Start and adding Metro actually add?


Well, what are the big advantages of the start button?

1) Presents your most commonly used apps
2) Lets you type to search to program or file you want
3) Heirarchical list of apps
4) Known place for shut down/log off buttons

In Win8:
1) The metro interface itself has your most commonly used apps
2) Just typing lets you search for program, so it saves you a click
3) I don't think the heirarchy was actually helpful anyway. In fact, that's why the "type to search" feature was so awesome and popular for Win7 anyway!
4) Everyone makes fun of the logical inconsistency of clicking Start to shut down your computer.

So basically, we're talking about the crank that used to be used to start a car. They've removed something that took more effort and which didn't really add much value.
 
2013-01-13 07:33:50 PM  

CujoQuarrel: What is the improvement from 7 to 8?


You could pay $40 for a legit copy
/Not going to sit here and BS you, W8 is the only software I paid for in the last 12 years
//Paid for 1 DVD(The Cell the farking Cell) in that time
 
2013-01-13 07:35:02 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: deSelby: drjekel_mrhyde: oh_please: "I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

Not sure if serious
/Am I going to make a Windows 8 for tards video

How can you not be sure that's serious? Virtually every new Windows 8 user I've seen had those same questions, often more than once since the answers are easy to forget and hard to discover just by playing around.

Let me Google that for you


Seriously? You replace a familiar OS that millions of people happily use with one with hidden controls and then suggest they Google how to use it? When those changes offer no actual advantage to non-touch screen users?

Maybe Ford should bring out a new car with the hand brake operated through the radio controls? "Well you're turning the radio off so clearly you want to park, right?" and "Jeeze, just Google it. How hard is that?" to anyone who didn't think to check the radio controls.

/Loves W8.
//As long as it has Classic Shell.
 
2013-01-13 07:35:07 PM  

oh_please: LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?

You're not too bright, are ya, son? Read the thread.


My point is you can't just say it's bad, and point to it being bad as the reason it's bad. Just saying "that's not necessary" is not proof that it is or isn't. Just saying "It isn't better" isn't proof that it is or isn't.

The points in the thread are "Don't do unnecessary things" - which I get - and then "everything they have done is unnecessary", as proven by... nothing. Nothing but your opinion that it was unnecessary.
 
2013-01-13 07:36:29 PM  
Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw

Almost not terrible, and completely un-farking-necessary.
 
2013-01-13 07:40:42 PM  

LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad


I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.

Bschott007: I am the service manager at a local computer shop and the host of a 1 hour tech/computer help radio show.

At my shop I have had 31 computers brought into the shop by owners asking us to remove windows 8 and put on windows 7. When offered to be trained on windows 8 for less than half the cost of having windows 7 installed, not a single customer was interested.

Last Friday, 2 laptops and a desktop, all different customers mind you, we're dropped of at our shop to have windows 8 removed and windows 7 installed.

That isn't mentioning the 5-10 calls a day to out shop by people asking how they perform simple tasks in there windows 8 computers. Nor the numerous calls by listener to the radio station asking for help with their new windows 8 computers

My experience is showing consumer either are confused by or hate windows 8.


Ymmv


Did you read that? My experience is eerily similar. Tell your bosses that.
 
2013-01-13 07:41:26 PM  

Jarhead_h: Windows 8: It's Almost Not Terrible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw

Almost not terrible, and completely un-farking-necessary.


How's it not necessary?
 
2013-01-13 07:43:55 PM  

Marine1:

You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.


Lots of stuff, things like the default PDF viewer, only open in Metro. You can download a classic desktop PDF viewer, but then what is the point of having Metro?

Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option? I'm convinced W8 would have been loved had they done that, given people the choice, been future proof for when touchscreens and tablet takes off and so on. It would have been great had they added that functionality. Instead they have taken away a UI that millions of people were happy and comfortable using.
 
2013-01-13 07:47:18 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Marine1:

You don't have to use Metro if you don't want to. I mean, really. I'm not just saying that.

Lots of stuff, things like the default PDF viewer, only open in Metro. You can download a classic desktop PDF viewer, but then what is the point of having Metro?

Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option? I'm convinced W8 would have been loved had they done that, given people the choice, been future proof for when touchscreens and tablet takes off and so on. It would have been great had they added that functionality. Instead they have taken away a UI that millions of people were happy and comfortable using.


They'll get over it.

It's the same thing. You put your cursor in the corner. You click. Ta-da.

So they changed it. Big deal.
 
2013-01-13 07:49:04 PM  

oh_please: LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad

I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.


But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.
 
2013-01-13 07:50:18 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option?


Because MS is desperate for market share in phones/tablets, and by forcing a mobile UI to the PC crowd, is gambling that they'll stay with it down the road. It might work.

In the meantime, they're pissing off a whole lot of people.
 
2013-01-13 07:50:39 PM  

LasersHurt: oh_please: LasersHurt: My point is you can't just say it's bad

I'm not saying it. End-users are saying it, and honestly, the hate is tremendous.

But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.


We need to start something like that with an Apple product.
 
2013-01-13 07:51:36 PM  

oh_please: Flint Ironstag: Why didn't they leave the Start button and menu in the classic desktop and have Metro as an option?

Because MS is desperate for market share in phones/tablets, and by forcing a mobile UI to the PC crowd, is gambling that they'll stay with it down the road. It might work.

In the meantime, they're pissing off a whole lot of people.


They're pissing off idiots. That's all. And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.
 
2013-01-13 07:52:56 PM  

Telos: Well, what are the big advantages of the start button?

1) Presents your most commonly used apps
2) Lets you type to search to program or file you want
3) Heirarchical list of apps
4) Known place for shut down/log off buttons

In Win8:
1) The metro interface itself has your most commonly used apps
2) Just typing lets you search for program, so it saves you a click
3) I don't think the heirarchy was actually helpful anyway. In fact, that's why the "type to search" feature was so awesome and popular for Win7 anyway!
4) Everyone makes fun of the logical inconsistency of clicking Start to shut down your computer.

So basically, we're talking about the crank that used to be used to start a car. They've removed something that took more effort and which didn't really add much value.


So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit? And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu, especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program. It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.

Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard. Where is the benefit in that?

And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!
 
2013-01-13 07:53:38 PM  

LasersHurt: MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it


Most of the hate I've seen comes from people who buy a new PC, and can't figure out how to do basic tasks. The UI is crap.
 
2013-01-13 07:57:43 PM  

Marine1: And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.


MS might, because these people you call "idiots" are just regular people who have used a Windows machine all their lives, you know, their ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE.

You're super awesome and much smarter than everyone else, so, there's that.
 
2013-01-13 07:59:17 PM  
Has it fallen behind where even Windows Vista was from a sales standpoint?

Yes. Yes it has.

One of the vendors at CES said that they offer Win 7 or 8 on the gaming rigs they sell, and that over half of the gaming enthusiasts who choose a drive with Windows 8 preloaded bail on it within a couple of weeks.

Gaming enthusiasts aren't the type to be confused by computers, subby. People just don't like Windows 8.
 
2013-01-13 08:05:31 PM  
Ive been wokring tech support for 20 years. I played with it in the store. It annoyed the crap out of me. Still better than visto.
 
2013-01-13 08:11:46 PM  

LasersHurt: I just don't get the fact that people are UPSET that they have to learn something new about a computer OS.


Maybe a career in UX isn't the right choice for you, then.

People get upset by change. More than a fact of software design, it's a fact of human nature. Now, what can software designers do to ameliorate the problem? Should they take care to introduce change minimally and gently, and for measurable benefit? Or should they dismiss paying customers who express discomfort as being "lazy" and "stupid"?
 
2013-01-13 08:12:51 PM  

LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?


The Nielsen Norman Group (NN/g) has done some usability studies on Windows 8 and the results are not pretty.

Link goes to article.

The folks at NN/g are usability experts at the top of the field; their user studies concluded that Windows 8 was "weak" on tablets and "terrible" on PCs.
 
2013-01-13 08:12:56 PM  

Unknown_Poltroon: Ive been wokring tech support for 20 years. I played with it in the store. It annoyed the crap out of me. Still better than visto.


img213.imageshack.us
There's an XKCD for everything.
 
2013-01-13 08:14:37 PM  

Marine1: They're pissing off idiots. That's all. And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.


You're not going to get far in business or in life without the support of idiots.

If you go out of your way to piss them off, you're one of them.
 
2013-01-13 08:24:05 PM  

red5ish: LasersHurt: You're saying totally subjective things that are nothing more than opinions, what do you want me to glean from that?

The Nielsen Norman Group (NN/g) has done some usability studies on Windows 8 and the results are not pretty.

Link goes to article.

The folks at NN/g are usability experts at the top of the field; their user studies concluded that Windows 8 was "weak" on tablets and "terrible" on PCs.


Oh, thank god. That article puts into words so many of the things I've been feeling but don't have the background or training to really convey objectively.

smothers usability with big colorful tiles while hiding needed features

YES.

I farking hate the way you have to go through so many steps to get to something as basic as the network setup to the point that I've resorted to using netsh and Powershell for all network management, even on client PCs.

Users have to learn and remember where to go for which features.

YES.

If I have to remember what ten clicks I need to get to something that has a keyboard shortcut, I'll just remember the goddamn keyboard shortcut. Which is fine for me, but isn't going to fly with my users.

Switching between environments increases the interaction cost of using multiple features.
The two environments work differently, making for an inconsistent user experience.


YES.

It's like having two different OSes at the same time and neither one does what I need!

There's no pseudo-3D or lighting model to cast subtle shadows that indicate what's clickable (because it looks raised above the rest) or where you can type

YES.

It never really occurred to me, but this happened to me a couple of times when I first used it. Several times I mistook a clickable item for a label.

Yes, yes, yes.... that article puts into words so many of the things I feel about Windows 8 after having used it for several weeks...
 
2013-01-13 08:24:27 PM  
LasersHurt:
But there are just as many end users in the thread who like it, though. MOST of the hate comes from people who haven't even tried it, which brings me back to the point that brought me to the thread - since well before launch, there was a meme that Windows 8 was terrible, and it never let up. It's in the public's mind now, no matter how good the OS is.


N***a please.  It wasn't a meme.  I cloned and upgraded a Win7  Pro touchscreen tablet to Win8 Consumer Preview.  It made me angry how unusable it was.  I love operating systems and have had a license plate to that effect - when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.   Windows 8 intentionally hides program controls in the GUI and doesn't implement others, forcing to go to the keyboard.

I don't have a problem using a keyboard when it's my choice to launch a program.  Many times I type "dsa.msc" to launch Active Directory Users & Computers knowing that it used to be called the Directory Services Administration console.  But generally, when using a GUI, I use a mouse to open programs.  I use a mouse in programs.  And I use a mouse to close programs.  Microsoft had a year of feedback from users like me telling them that their new UI was awful to fix it.  Instead, they just lined up a litany of excuses.  "Oh, you can't shut down with two clicks?  Well, here's a seventeen-click method to use.  Oh, you can't launch every program on your computer with a mouse?  Well, here's a way to do it using a Win-key combo, right-clicking, and the blood of a chicken.  Oh, you can't close down one of our stupid Metro apps with a mouse?  Well, we designed this touch-oriented application to be closed by using Alt-F4."

There's small wonder the Surface RT ads focus on the keyboard attachment.  The UI team for Metro didn't do their job properly and completely.  They called in some keyboard shortcuts at the last minute to spackle in the gaping usability holes.

I also find it amusing that MSFT calls the 'clues' of a UI - menu bar, indicators for how to close an app or minimize it - "chrome", as if that's a bad thing.  It's like Ford calling the steering wheel a "chevy" after releasing their new car that you steer with your knees using hidden knobs.
 
2013-01-13 08:29:09 PM  

oh_please: Marine1: And to be honest, I don't care if idiots get pissed off.

MS might, because these people you call "idiots" are just regular people who have used a Windows machine all their lives, you know, their ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE.

You're super awesome and much smarter than everyone else, so, there's that.


I've got a better idea: how about everyone else gets on my level?

The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.
 
2013-01-13 08:33:40 PM  

red5ish: Link goes to article.


Here's a pretty damning paragraph:

Furthermore, the charms don't actually work universally because they're not true generic commands. In our test, users often clicked Search only to be told, "This application cannot be searched." Enough disappointments and users will stop trying a feature. (Also, of course, it violates basic usability guidelines; that is, you shouldn't tease users by offering a feature that isn't actually available.)
 
2013-01-13 08:33:47 PM  

syrynxx: LasersHurt: N***a please.  It wasn't a meme.


The huge amount of hate, even before it came out? It absolutely was a meme.

It being so doesn't disqualify individual users from disliking it after it came out.
 
2013-01-13 08:36:14 PM  

syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.


Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.
 
2013-01-13 08:38:40 PM  

theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.


Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?
 
2013-01-13 08:47:04 PM  

Marine1: The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.


Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

Tablets you hold in your hand. A touchscreen is a logical and easy way to control them.

You do not hold the monitor of a desktop PC in your hands. It is too high, too far away and too big and your hands are on or near the keyboard and mouse on which most people do most of their work.

All these people thinking using a touchscreen on their PC makes sense clearly work at McDonalds and are happy with the screen having big pictures of a Big Mac, a cheeseburger and fries etc and think that is the way to use a PC.

/Idiotocracy got it right with their medical input screen.
 
2013-01-13 08:49:27 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Marine1: The Windows Start Button had its place and its time. Now, we've got a new paradigm for usage coming in, and Microsoft is adapting to it. I like it, personally: not everything is best done in a Win32 application. Some stuff is better. Windows 8 gives us options. Computer manufacturers are being forced to actually innovate and think of new ways to do things. I see nothing wrong with this.

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

Tablets you hold in your hand. A touchscreen is a logical and easy way to control them.

You do not hold the monitor of a desktop PC in your hands. It is too high, too far away and too big and your hands are on or near the keyboard and mouse on which most people do most of their work.

All these people thinking using a touchscreen on their PC makes sense clearly work at McDonalds and are happy with the screen having big pictures of a Big Mac, a cheeseburger and fries etc and think that is the way to use a PC.

/Idiotocracy got it right with their medical input screen.


Tablets are going to make up the majority of computer sales. And I'm still not sold that they threw away the GUI that they had. It's a little different... but it's approximately the same thing, at least to me.
 
2013-01-13 08:50:56 PM  
Flint Ironstag:Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.


You're not trapped there. I barely use Metro at all, and I work and play on my PC pretty much the entire time I am awake. It's not a burden on my psyche. YMMV.
 
2013-01-13 08:50:57 PM  

LasersHurt: theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.

Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?


Well your second post said "Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.", your third post said "Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything."....
 
2013-01-13 08:54:09 PM  

Marine1: Tablets are going to make up the majority of computer sales. And I'm still not sold that they threw away the GUI that they had. It's a little different... but it's approximately the same thing, at least to me.


Motorbikes outsell cars worldwide. That doesn't mean Honda fit handlebars and twist grip throttle on their cars.

W8 should have had Metro as an option, with the traditional desktop an evolution of XP/Vista/7. That would have been a huge hit, a "futureproof" Windows, giving users the option. Instead they took away the desktop features and tried to force everyone to use the interface designed for a touchscreen.
 
2013-01-13 08:59:44 PM  

LasersHurt: Flint Ironstag:Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

W8 does not give us the option, it is taking away options and trying to force users to use am interface designed for a touchscreen tablet on a desktop PC.

You're not trapped there. I barely use Metro at all, and I work and play on my PC pretty much the entire time I am awake. It's not a burden on my psyche. YMMV.


When you have built the worlds biggest software/OS company on providing a product used by millions of office drones who can barely understand the concept of right click then making you flagship product new and confusing is not a great move. Racing drivers brake with their left foot, but if Ford introduced a new car where that is all you could do then there'd be carnage on the streets. Because millions of people have spent years braking with their right foot.
Why change,unless there is a big advantage to doing so? Metro only offers an advantage to touchscreens, and they took away the main control of the desktop.

When you bring out a new product and the big "selling point" is "you can get used to it" rather than "It's better because..." then you have failed.
 
2013-01-13 09:03:13 PM  

Flint Ironstag:

So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit?


Like I said, less clicking.


And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu,

*snip*

...As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard.


So which is it? Is typing clunkier? Or switching to your mouse to navigate the start menu? Or are you just determined to hate it no matter what?

Ok, unsnipping now...

especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program.

Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu? Hell, on different systems the same program could even be in a different place. (Remote Desktop, for instance, is either under Communications Tools or Accessories.) How is it easier to remember the software vendor so you can find the folder? And what the hell are you talking about with "exact name?" It does a partial search, so all you have to remember is a single letter!

But now, that's WAY harder than
1) Move hand from keyboard to mouse
2) Move mouse to start button
3) Click
4) Click all programs
5) Search through giant, barely hierarchical, list of software manufacturers
6) Click to open manufacturer's folder
7) search through any subfolders THEY'VE added
8) Finally find the app you were looking for and click it

Yep. Way, WAY easier than typing the first 3 letters of the app name and hitting enter. Yep.


It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.


Sure, as long as the vendor actually followed best practices. They might not, you know. You might go through all those menus and NOT find the configuration, or the uninstall program. You know what does work most of the time though? Add/Remove programs. So... yeah, you've made it clear you prefer the tedious, slow, error prone way of doing things I guess...


Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. Where is the benefit in that?


Requires? That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!


Yeah, I'll give you that. BUT... Are those buttons actually needed? HINT: Android phones/tablets don't have a button inside the OS to shut off.
 
2013-01-13 09:04:25 PM  

Flint Ironstag: LasersHurt: theorellior: syrynxx: when I can't do something in a GUI and the response is "here's how you use your keyboard to do it", that is a hugely embarrassing design failure.

Can I just quote THIS for truth? Because it bears repeating.

Can you give an example of something you cannot do at all through the UI, but can through keyboard?

Well your second post said "Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.", your third post said "Just hit Start and start typing. You'll find everything."....


All of that can be accessed through the UI, too. I'm just saying it's super fast and easy to type it out, but it's also easy enough to do in the UI.

Flint Ironstag: When you bring out a new product and the big "selling point" is "you can get used to it" rather than "It's better because..." then you have failed.


Microsoft has tons of advertising, and I don't think any of it is "you can get used to it." They tout the features as better.
 
2013-01-13 09:07:57 PM  

Flint Ironstag:

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.



Actually no, that option DOES exist. Maybe not as easy to get to as it could be, but you can definitely run Win8 without using the Metro interface.
 
2013-01-13 09:11:41 PM  

Telos: Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu?


You scan through the list of programs, and when you see the actual name or logo, it jogs your memory. If you don't remember the name of the program but would recognize it if you saw it, the search bar is pretty damn useless, now, isn't it?
 
2013-01-13 09:13:17 PM  
I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.
 
2013-01-13 09:13:36 PM  

Telos: Flint Ironstag:

Except the "use a GUI that you have used for a decade and are familiar and comfortable with" option.

Actually no, that option DOES exist. Maybe not as easy to get to as it could be, but you can definitely run Win8 without using the Metro interface.


But the non metro interface is still modified in certain pointless ways that make things harder for people. The Windows 8 interface was designed by morons, how hard is that to get? Everybody hates it. Did you ever stop and think that maybe there might be a reason?
 
2013-01-13 09:23:45 PM  

Telos: Flint Ironstag:

So no actual improvement then? All that change for no benefit?

Like I said, less clicking.
More typing.

And personally having to type a program name is far clunkier than selecting it from a menu,

*snip*

...As is having to swap back and forth between mouse and keyboard.


So which is it? Is typing clunkier? Or switching to your mouse to navigate the start menu? Or are you just determined to hate it no matter what?
Generally you use a mouse to navigate and then the keyboard to work. Having a process where you click, type, click, type is less easy.
Ok, unsnipping now...

especially for little used programes where I might have forgotten the exact name of the program.

Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu? Hell, on different systems the same program could even be in a different place. (Remote Desktop, for instance, is either under Communications Tools or Accessories.) How is it easier to remember the software vendor so you can find the folder? And what the hell are you talking about with "exact name?" It does a partial search, so all you have to remember is a single letter!

But now, that's WAY harder than
1) Move hand from keyboard to mouse
2) Move mouse to start button
3) Click
4) Click all programs
5) Search through giant, barely hierarchical, list of software manufacturers
6) Click to open manufacturer's folder
7) search through any subfolders THEY'VE added
8) Finally find the app you were looking for and click it

Yep. Way, WAY easier than typing the first 3 letters of the app name and hitting enter. Yep.
You don't click on all programmes or click to open folders. They open on mouse over. It is one smooth track with the mouse.

It also grouped options like setup, uninstall, configuration etc for specific programmes in the same menu choice as the program, far simpler to go directly to those options rather than having to open the program itself and then find out where Uninstall or whatever is in their menu.

Sure, as long as the vendor actually followed best practices. They might not, you know. You might go through all those menus and NOT find the configuration, or the uninstall program. You know what does work most of the time though? Add/Remove programs. So... yeah, you've made it clear you prefer the tedious, slow, error prone way of doing things I guess...
I have some programmes that you need to uninstall through their link to get back an install credit. Sometimes it isn't easier. And opening Add/Remove programes is quicker and easier than one click on the start menu?

Metro involves a lot of sideways scrolling especially to get to little used stuff. Which IMHO is a pain in the ass and far from simpler. Where is the benefit in that?


Requires? That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Where did I use that word? Projecting much?

And the logical inconsistency of clicking on Start to shut down is hardly worse than replacing it with buttons that are actually hidden!

Yeah, I'll give you that. BUT... Are those buttons actually needed? HINT: Android phones/tablets don't have a button inside the OS to shut off.

PCs are often buried under desks or otherwise inaccessible. A phone or tablet will usually be in your hand.
 
2013-01-13 09:27:22 PM  

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


I think the $40 upgrade offer is still valid until the end of January. I went from XP to W8 and am very happy, once I installed Classic Shell. Try it and see, you might get on with it without Classic Shell but if you need it it's free. Start 8 is similar and only costs $5.
If you have a fairly modern dual core mobo/CPU then definitely go for it. XP just couldn't run dual core processors properly. W8 is far faster, smoother and has lots of neat tools like automatic backup and restore options.
 
2013-01-13 09:28:56 PM  

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


I also installed Thunderbird because W7 and W8 don't have Outlook Express.
 
2013-01-13 09:31:26 PM  

viscountalpha: I still have XP. I know I need to move up to Windows 7 But i'm in no hurry to waste 100$ on something I don't need.


And their new Solitaire app sucks.
 
2013-01-13 09:35:23 PM  
I agree with the people saying that "improve things for the better".

I've had a Win8 laptop the last couple months, my previous one sponatenously died. And my verdict after 2 months of use? same complaints everyone else has. My laptop is not touch screen, I never use the metro interface, and I found a nice app (pokki) that gives me a lot of the start menu functionality that I've gotten used to over the years. I think having to do windows key + C to get to the shutdown menu is retarded. Basic functions SHOULD NOT have to require you to google them. Let alone a "power user" as I consider myself.

Now, I will say that its boots amazingly fast. It runs very well. Coming out of hibernation, for the first time ever, does not break things. Its a good looking OS. I just think they made a few too many changes to the simple things that should have been left alone.
 
2013-01-13 09:41:06 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Should they take care to introduce change minimally and gently, and for measurable benefit? Or should they dismiss paying customers who express discomfort as being "lazy" and "stupid"?


MS isn't dismissing them as lazy and stupid, the people who aren't lazy and stupid are dismissing them as lazy and stupid. BTW, you sound lazy and stupid.

/ Not an MS employee.
 
2013-01-13 09:44:37 PM  

cptjeff: Telos: Really? If the program is so "little used" how do you remember where it is in the start menu?

You scan through the list of programs, and when you see the actual name or logo, it jogs your memory. If you don't remember the name of the program but would recognize it if you saw it, the search bar is pretty damn useless, now, isn't it?


But the start menu ISN'T a list of programs, it's a list of FOLDERS. Most often the folder is the name of the software vendor even ,not the app itself. So you're telling me that you can't remember "App" but you can remember "John's Software Company?"

Not to mention that a lot of apps have what they do in the name, so if you can type what you want to do you're fine.

Also not to mention that you can still bring up the entire list of apps in Win8 if you really, really can't remember a single letter or word from the apps name.
 
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