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(KATU)   The reason Windows 8 isn't catching on? Customers are "confused". I think the word they want is "baffled"   (katu.com) divider line 335
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4599 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-13 01:54:06 PM

LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.


BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.
 
2013-01-13 01:54:52 PM

Revek: I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be.  A touch screen PC is uncomfortable.


Needs to be repositioned... I could see it working like a drafting board.
 
2013-01-13 01:55:02 PM

Zmog: Does people who used Windows 7 and get paralyzed by Windows 8 also get paralyzed by jeans with a button up fly when their other pants used to have zippers? Or by velcro instead of shoelaces?


I moved from button fly jeans to jeans with zippers, and the first time I zipped up my pants I got my foreskin caught in the zipper.
 
2013-01-13 01:55:27 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.

BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.


I have. You can't do it again?
 
2013-01-13 01:56:12 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: LasersHurt: I literally support people for a living.

The complaint this keeps boiling down to is "anything is different at all, and any learning at all makes it a bad OS." I think that's lazy, because it takes literally SECONDS to learn what to do, and the OS outside of these few new things is great.

BS: You've never tried to teach a grandma to cut-and-paste.


Oh, HELL YES!
 
2013-01-13 01:58:21 PM
I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.
 
2013-01-13 01:58:49 PM

cmunic8r99: oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

In the lower left corner where it always was.

[dumbimages.net image 542x165]

There's likely one on your keyboard, too.

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

Alt-Tab, Alt-F4, Click Start, hit the start button on the keyboard...

"How do I restart/shut down?"

Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE and click the power button. Or touch the power button on the computer.

"I don't know how to find a file"

On the Start screen (see above on how to find it), start typing your search criteria. Click the Files icon on the right.

Or, from the Start screen, open Windows Explorer, and search the same way as before.

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

Right-click, choose Uninstall.

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.

Let me know if you need any further help.


So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.
 
2013-01-13 01:59:46 PM

LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.


And just because something is new, doesn't mean it's good. There's nothing in Win8 that improves the user experience.
 
2013-01-13 01:59:49 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.


*Sigh* For the class of users for whom "out of sight, out of mind" is a very real phenomenon, this is rocket surgery.

My MIL wants to know how to get to Home Shopping Network. She doesn't know Firefox from IE from Chrome. She doesn't want to. It would no more occur to her to go to a hidden Start button in the corner of her screen and start typing "firefox" in order to get to the Home Shopping Network than it would to run out in the middle of the street and scream "I WANT TO ORDER A NICE BLOUSE" into thin air.
 
2013-01-13 02:01:54 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


This. I've never understood the concept of taking a graphic user interface, which is visual by its very nature, and making things invisible by default.
 
2013-01-13 02:02:16 PM

Tyrone Slothrop: LasersHurt: DrgnMech: Win8 assumes most people can/are willing to learn how to use new/different things on their computer. This is a very bad assumption.

"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

And just because something is new, doesn't mean it's good. There's nothing in Win8 that improves the user experience.


I find some things very useful, but like I said upthread, I don't necessarily recommend upgrading from Windows 7 if you've got a good thing going.
 
2013-01-13 02:03:04 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


LasersHurt and  Chim completely missed the point here. Thanks for clarifying.
 
2013-01-13 02:05:23 PM

oh_please: Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.

LasersHurt and  Chim completely missed the point here. Thanks for clarifying.


I don't see how they're "normally in the UI" and now "hidden" if you can hit ONE button, and type out the thing you want. The old way took a few clicks, or you could also search for it. What would make it easier for you?
 
2013-01-13 02:07:01 PM

MrSteve007: And you guys call the people here paid shills?

FTA: "Apple's a longtime pick of Motley Fool superinvestor David Gardner, and has soared 219.20% since he recommended it in January 2008"

Never mind their stock has been in a free fall for the past 3 months, shedding nearly a 1/3rd of its value. If Microsoft or Google's stock were doing the same, we'd hear from markets analysts that "the end is near!"


What news sites are you reading? Every time Apple stock goes down a buck, some douche starts writing their obituary.
 
2013-01-13 02:09:36 PM

oh_please: cmunic8r99: Let me know if you need any further help.

You don't need to help me, I'm just giving you the questions that EVERY SINGLE PERSON  has asked after using an earlier version of Windows. If everyone has to ask those questions to do simple tasks, it's wrong.


When they changed the UI from Windows XP to the Vista/7 UI, I got similar complaints. They figured it out or asked for help.

When they introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, people biatched about it, too. Yet, I don't think it slowed adoption much, and the interface has stuck around for a while.

Frankly, I'm glad MS put that UI in Windows 8. OEMs weren't going to put touchscreens on laptops & displays unless there was a UI available that's made for it. Now that there is, you see a ton more touchscreens. And I think that's a good thing.
 
2013-01-13 02:10:20 PM

LasersHurt: I don't see how they're "normally in the UI" and now "hidden" if you can hit ONE button, and type out the thing you want. The old way took a few clicks, or you could also search for it. What would make it easier for you?


Holy shiat, you're dense.

falkone32: LasersHurt
"Everything"? Relearn "Everything"? Just hit Start and start typing.

Which is completely different from how the majority of people use Windows. You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure. With Windows 8, they now need to learn a new interface or, at the very least, need to learn how to switch between them as they will do so rather often, by accident, with no idea how they got there or how to get back. Hit start and start typing? Many older people don't know what the names of their apps are, they merely recognize the icon or where on the screen it should be. I know many middle aged people who are scared to learn keyboard shortcuts, and you expect them to remember all of their program and document names?


Read that again.
 
2013-01-13 02:11:35 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: So you admit it's non-intuitive with hidden UI elements and the ones that aren't hidden have had extra steps added to them to reduce productivity? Oh wait, that was Microsoft openly admitting that a few weeks ago. Literally admitting it.


I didn't say anything about intuitive. In fact - intuitive or not - most of the solutions I put in that post work in Windows 7.
 
2013-01-13 02:16:27 PM
Windows 7 was quite literally the easiest OS upgrade for my users that I've ever done. Of 120+ users, I received pushback from exactly one older user, and she got used to it after the first day.

I don't see that happening with Windows 8. I'm sticking with 7 until they work out the bugs come Windows 9 or whatever they call it.
 
2013-01-13 02:17:49 PM

theorellior: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Mouse to the right of the screen, click gear icon, click power icon. It ain't rocket surgery.

*Sigh* For the class of users for whom "out of sight, out of mind" is a very real phenomenon, this is rocket surgery.

My MIL wants to know how to get to Home Shopping Network. She doesn't know Firefox from IE from Chrome. She doesn't want to. It would no more occur to her to go to a hidden Start button in the corner of her screen and start typing "firefox" in order to get to the Home Shopping Network than it would to run out in the middle of the street and scream "I WANT TO ORDER A NICE BLOUSE" into thin air.


To be fair, with the new Start Screen you can just pin a tile with the HSN homepage, so she can just click on the tile and go without having to even find the browser. Despite some of the other big issues with the OS, you really can use the tiles to easily set it up for non-technical users.
 
2013-01-13 02:20:32 PM

LasersHurt: For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.


Did you have to install one of the third party apps to get rid of the "Metro" start screen, and if so what happens when you press the Windows key on your keyboard? How do you multitask between a legacy app and a Metro app? How do you have three windows open and visible at the same time in Metro for multitasking? Doesn't it bug you that it's harder to get to any configuration/control panel, or that when you search for something Metro takes the whole screen instead of the Windows 7 1/8 screen start menu search area?

Some of us just can't be as productive on Windows 8 as Windows 7. And from a nonfunctional point of view, it was stupid to get rid of Aero on the Legacy/Desktop mode. Why step backwards?
 
2013-01-13 02:22:30 PM

Ivandrago: I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.


This.

THIS.

THIS!!!
 
2013-01-13 02:26:12 PM
I have been a computer user since the Commodore Pet days. Over the years I have relearned many things to keep up with operating system improvements.  There are still things that I think are easier to do from DOS than Windows, but such is life.

In general, I don't mind relearning things when there is some motivation.

But this is where I think Microsoft is falling down. There seems to be a lot of change just for the sake of making change. I've played around with Windows8 a little bit, and while things are "different", it doesn't strike me as impossible to learn.

The question is why. I honestly don't see what Windows8 does for me to pay be back for relearning stuff I can already do in my sleep. FWIW, I think most Microsoft Office programs suffer from the same ailment.
 
2013-01-13 02:26:43 PM
Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening). Its ease of use is simply a marketing lie if you want to do anything even borderline complex.
 
2013-01-13 02:27:18 PM

Revek: I think they are trying to make the PC something it isn't and never will be.  A touch screen PC is uncomfortable.


I bought a new PC last week with Windows 8, but it's most definitely not a touch screen. There were ones for sale like that, but after making the leap from Windows XP (former PC) to Windows 8, and having to learn a new system, I wanted a keyboard & mouse.
 
2013-01-13 02:28:21 PM

Gig103: LasersHurt: For example, Weeners - you're in NO WAY trapped in a touchscreen PC with Win8. It's just not true. I use it like a normal desktop PC, like I always have.

Did you have to install one of the third party apps to get rid of the "Metro" start screen, and if so what happens when you press the Windows key on your keyboard? How do you multitask between a legacy app and a Metro app? How do you have three windows open and visible at the same time in Metro for multitasking? Doesn't it bug you that it's harder to get to any configuration/control panel, or that when you search for something Metro takes the whole screen instead of the Windows 7 1/8 screen start menu search area?

Some of us just can't be as productive on Windows 8 as Windows 7. And from a nonfunctional point of view, it was stupid to get rid of Aero on the Legacy/Desktop mode. Why step backwards?


Those are all subjective opinions (well, one of them is just "why doesn't metro allow you to have three metro apps at once" and that's a feature question that I don't have an answer for, i'd like to be able to pin multiple metro apps).

Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.
 
2013-01-13 02:31:31 PM

falkone32: You have never done tech support for older people, have you? They don't generalize well when it comes to software. That is, they learn a specific set of steps to get to where they want to go. If the steps change, they often need to relearn the entire procedure.


Dear god, this.

I used to run the help desk for a university research group (maybe 200 employees with somewhat more computers). While the biologists weren't computer experts they were certainly competent. The administrative staff, particularly one secretary, was pretty bad.

CSB 1: She didn't generalize anything, ever. As an example, an average person might say "I want to make this text bold. I'll select the text and...hmm...well, bolding is a type of formatting, so maybe the 'Format' menu has what I'm looking for? Ah, yes! There it is." If they later needed to italicize something they'd already have the "text formatting = Format menu" in their mind and could jump there right away without needing to think too much. More advanced users will get the keyboard shortcuts quickly.

This secretary didn't do that at all. She remembered where everything was not by where in the window something is (e.g. in what menu) but where physically on the screen it was. Her selecting things was more like a robot: "Move to coordinates [x,y], click mouse, move to [x1,y1], click mouse, move to [x2,y2], click mouse. Done." She had different mental instructions for every operation she needed to do. If the window was moved slightly out of its normal position then she'd freak the hell out because everything was broken. We'd get a flurry of "CRITICAL" trouble tickets saying that Word had "crashed" or she'd been "hacked" and nothing was working as it should.

Switching her from Office 2007 to Office 2010 (the university wanted everyone to upgrade) was hellacious.

CSB 2: Her administrative group (about 5 people) decided that they'd switch to Google's offerings but instead of setting up Google Apps they each wanted their own, separate Google Accounts and they'd deal with the sharing themselves. Fine, whatever. We sent a guy over there and got everything set up. The secretary wrote down all the directions of creating a Google account step-by-step in a notebook -- "just in case", she said. Fine. The tech transferred all of her calendar stuff from Outlook to Google Calendar, set up sharing with the other staff, and confirmed everything was working normally. Just for her own records she wrote down the username and password to the account (her office is physically locked when she's not around, so it's not a security risk) in her notebook as well. She said it was a bit of a change but no big deal. Cool.

About two weeks later the Google login cookie expired (or she cleared her cookies, I don't remember exactly) and she was prompted to log into the account. Even though people have been logging into accounts since the dawn of computers this was so totally unexpected for her that she didn't know what to do. So, she went to her notebook and followed the directions to create a new account then was thrown for a loop when the "error, account already in use" warning came up. Six "CRITICAL" tickets were submitted, all claiming her account had been hacked and everything was broken. By the time our tech got over there she had created some new account ("because the old one was hacked!") and was manually entering the next year's worth of calendar entries.

I understand that some people are just not "computer people" just like I'm not a "music person". I don't expect everyone to be a "car person", but I do expect that car owners know how to put in gasoline, know that their oil needs to get changed at intervals (even if that just means "take it to a mechanic"), and know basic stuff like how to change a tire, check the oil level, or check the air pressure in the tires. I expect computer users to have at least some basic semblance about how to use a computer, like how to log into an account when the system prompts you.

*sighs*
 
2013-01-13 02:31:58 PM
The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.

Most online shops still offer Windows 7 as an option. Hubby just bought a computer over X-mas with it on.


"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

People cry so much when there is change because they have to stop what they are working on, learn the new system and then figure out what of their past work needs to be changed or thrown out and rewritten. They then need to make a mental note to do things the new way. They will forget the new way due to force of habit and get themselves messed up for a few months afterwards. While this is acceptable if the change is necessary, having to go through this because Microsoft wants to put out a new version is unacceptable. Hint to software developers: Your software is not the most important thing in my day. In fact I like it best when I don't have to think about it at all. You make me take time from my priorities to have to deal with you and I am less likely to use your product in the future.
 
2013-01-13 02:32:36 PM
OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND I CAN'T FUNCTION WITH DIFFERENT!

That's what you people sound like.
 
2013-01-13 02:33:24 PM

NotARocketScientist: The annoying part is I'll now have to wait one more generation before upgrading my laptop because I won't be able to find a current gen machine with Windows 7 installed.

Most online shops still offer Windows 7 as an option. Hubby just bought a computer over X-mas with it on.


"No new things" will not fly long term, and everyone knows it. I don't know why they cry so much about change.

People cry so much when there is change because they have to stop what they are working on, learn the new system and then figure out what of their past work needs to be changed or thrown out and rewritten. They then need to make a mental note to do things the new way. They will forget the new way due to force of habit and get themselves messed up for a few months afterwards. While this is acceptable if the change is necessary, having to go through this because Microsoft wants to put out a new version is unacceptable. Hint to software developers: Your software is not the most important thing in my day. In fact I like it best when I don't have to think about it at all. You make me take time from my priorities to have to deal with you and I am less likely to use your product in the future.


I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."
 
2013-01-13 02:35:25 PM

Ivandrago: I don't want to upgrade to Windows 8 because I know how to hide my porn and browsing from my wife in Windows 7 and I don't want to have relearn how to do it and risk making a mistake.


TrueCrypt + portable browser on TrueCrypt volume = no worries.

Add a hardware token like this one and you don't need to worry about someone gaining access by guessing the password.

/works for non-porn things too
//has way too many smartcards and tokens lying around the house
 
2013-01-13 02:38:11 PM
I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

It is more that change is a pain in the but to users. Change ONLY when necessary and then only change what is necessary.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:23 PM

Bungles: Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening). Its ease of use is simply a marketing lie if you want to do anything even borderline complex.


This is an official Windows 8 Sucks(SM) thread. That troll is only authorized for Apple and Linux threads.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:26 PM

LasersHurt: Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.


That statement alone indicates a failure in the design of Windows 8. If everyone using the OS goes to the desktop to "skip all this Metro shait" then what the heck is the point? Metro is the big deal for 8. Look at the Windows 8 home page. New Metro interface! Download Windows apps! If no one is doing such things, then it is a critical failure in OS redesign.

Me personally, I am going to ride out Windows 7 until support is dropped. I have Windows 8 in a VM to support any poor souls that venture that direction, but realistically none of the corporations I have worked with even have a beta imitative for 8 yet.
 
2013-01-13 02:39:53 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."


Or, you know, you could stick with the real complaint instead of making things up...

If you're going to change things, change them for the better, don't change them just to change them.

I can't comment on it from any perspective but as a technical user who uses it to manage Server installations, but from that perspective, it's complete dildoes and I would love to kick the head of interface design straight on in the nuts.

I manage servers. I need to type a lot. I need to move between many different applications quickly. The Start menu was great for that because I could just organize them in nice little nested, organized trees.

I can't comment on the home versions, just Server and Professional. As a work OS, it's easily the worst OS I've ever seen. I'm actually working on migrating a large number of servers off of Windows because it's such complete garbage.

Sadly, I can't move all of them, so I'm stuck with the Windows "Touch Yourself" interface for the foreseeable future.

/ 2008 R2 was apparently as good as Windows is going to get....
 
2013-01-13 02:40:21 PM

cmunic8r99: When they introduced the Ribbon in Office 2007, people biatched about it, too. Yet, I don't think it slowed adoption much, and the interface has stuck around for a while.


The ribbon is awful. Can anyone explain to me why they removed the double-click feature for bringing up object properties? And then even when you open up the object properties they broke everything down into separate tabs. Everything takes 2-3 times as long, particularly since I have to translate every pictograph into english. That "size and position" button? Just kidding. It's just size. You have to click an extra button to get to position. Sure, there's plenty of white space to include both, but that would be too easy.

And I am always pausing to figure out which little GIF houses the feature I used to be able to access with a single key combination or at most two clicks. I'll take drop-down menus any day with a shortcut bar, but why can't they at least let us remove all the pictographs from the ribbon? They waste so much space and distract from finding what I actually want.

There were plenty of improvements from 2003 to 2007/2010, but that ribbon is the worst possible change for a user who does anything but make middle school quality presentations.
 
2013-01-13 02:40:51 PM
I have a new win8 computer that is touchscreen and really like it. Also the more I use it the more comfortable I am with it. I think that Windows is going to be like this for a while. kind of like the start of the start button days went until 7.

At first people were like, what's this button for? I have my icons etc. Then they got used to it and didn't miss the icons. Over time people will get used to the start screen. in the meantime people just need to learn as they go.
 
2013-01-13 02:41:48 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: Holy shiat, guys, press the Windows key. There, everything's back the way it was.

It's so easy to use, and been completely stable. I don't know what has given you guys such trouble.

Except, "Where's the Start button on my desktop?"

"I'm in a program and can't get out of it!"

"How do I restart/shut down?"

"I don't know how to find a file"

"How do I get rid of all these buttons I never use? I don't want to go to HP.com or Ebay!"

...and on and on and on.

Metro is a solid interface for phones/tablets, but it's horribly clunky on an actual PC, Grandma will have to relearn everything. She may as well get an Apple.


I'm 60 years old and it took me less than 2 days to figure out Windows 8. Seriously, it's not that difficult. Granted it's a whole lot different than the Windows XP I've been using for years, but I figured things out fairly quickly.
 
2013-01-13 02:43:52 PM

Bungles: Windows is still a thousand times easier to use than any Mac OS variant (still have no idea what I'm doing when unexpectedly plonked on a Mac, after 15 years of it happening).


I just don't get comments like this. C'mon, man, use your noggin. I've used Macs from 7.5 on and Windows from 3.11 on. They're not really that different. I'm more comfortable with the interface design choices for Macs, but they're not all that different.
 
2013-01-13 02:46:13 PM

Sarsin: LasersHurt: Still, I feel bad that you feel like you can't be as productive. I am easily as productive, but I mostly use the same desktop apps I always did, because you can. Nothing says you have to integrate Metro into your life beyond a certain point.

That statement alone indicates a failure in the design of Windows 8.


What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.


Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

Or, you know, you could stick with the real complaint instead of making things up...

If you're going to change things, change them for the better, don't change them just to change them.


I agree, but you can't just dismiss everything with that. Substantively, what is so bad, other than it being different?


I can't comment on it from any perspective but as a technical user who uses it to manage Server installations, but from that perspective, it's complete dildoes and I would love to kick the head of interface design straight on in the nuts.

I manage servers. I need to type a lot. I need to move between many different applications quickly. The Start menu was great for that because I could just organize them in nice little nested, organized trees.

I can't comment on the home versions, just Server and Professional. As a work OS, it's easily the worst OS I've ever seen. I'm actually working on migrating a large number of servers off of Windows because it's such complete garbage.


I use Pro, and I have no issues. I have only briefly played with Server, and I do feel like the interface is a little out of place there, but otherwise it seemed fine. I like to judge the OS based on its stability and function, and from that standpoint I absolutely cannot agree with "worst OS I've ever seen." That's got to be hyperbole, right?
 
2013-01-13 02:47:47 PM

WxAxGxS: There were plenty of improvements from 2003 to 2007/2010, but that ribbon is the worst possible change for a user who does anything but make middle school quality presentations.


I upgraded to the new office a couple years ago (at least 4), and I STILL can't find anything on the farking ribbon. I use office every single day. its awful.
 
2013-01-13 02:48:47 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows.


Except that this change isn't necessary, it's only being done to push their mobile products.

They're hoping that consumers will get used to it, then buy a Windows tablet or phone later. Hell, I can't blame them, but they're rolling the dice here.
 
2013-01-13 02:51:10 PM

LasersHurt: What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.


If the main selling point of Windows 8 is Metro, then everyone should want to use Metro. You shouldn't need to use it the way you were before the upgrade because it defeats the point.
 
2013-01-13 02:51:30 PM

oh_please: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows.

Except that this change isn't necessary, it's only being done to push their mobile products.

They're hoping that consumers will get used to it, then buy a Windows tablet or phone later. Hell, I can't blame them, but they're rolling the dice here.


Almost every ultrabook or similar product this year will be touch compatible, and the number of convertibles being made is on the rise. That might not be indicative of anything, but it's nice to have the assets in place now, rather than playing catch-up later. We're also seeing the rise of Surface Pro units, that is Full Windows on a tablet, and I've heard it's a pleasant experience.

Maybe it will work, maybe it will wont, but based on what I saw from CES in terms of product lines coming up, there's going to be a lot of Windows Touching coming and they're already set to go.
 
2013-01-13 02:53:26 PM

Sarsin: LasersHurt: What? You can use everything just as you did before, and that's a failure? Because everyone should want Metro? That doesn't make any sense.

If the main selling point of Windows 8 is Metro, then everyone should want to use Metro. You shouldn't need to use it the way you were before the upgrade because it defeats the point.


The main selling point should NOT be Metro, and the fact that people think it is is a failing on Microsoft's part, I think. For a desktop user, Metro isn't hugely important (I do like some features, like snapping an app on the side of the screen). My argument about Windows 8 has always been "it's not terrible, like the general mood seems to say. It's a good OS, overall, in the key OS areas."
 
2013-01-13 02:54:23 PM

LasersHurt: That's got to be hyperbole, right?


Only because I forgot about Windows for Workgroups until just now.

Otherwise, no. I'd rather use Windows 2000. I really did not expect to hate 8 like I do. I expected I'd biatch about it like I did with 7, get used to it and just occasionally grouse about some of the things I still don't like, but I honestly have grown to absolutely hate Windows 8 and the more I use it the more I loathe having to switch to it. I did not realize until it was gone the extent to which I used the Start menu and you just cannot easily duplicate that loss with the metro start menu. The metro start menu is, literally, completely useless.

That said, Powershell 3.0 is pretty slick and some of the changes it brings finally makes Windows scripting tolerable for the first time in history but I don't think it makes up for the "Touch My Balls" feature that 8/2012 force on you.
 
2013-01-13 02:55:20 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: That's got to be hyperbole, right?

Only because I forgot about Windows for Workgroups until just now.

Otherwise, no. I'd rather use Windows 2000. I really did not expect to hate 8 like I do. I expected I'd biatch about it like I did with 7, get used to it and just occasionally grouse about some of the things I still don't like, but I honestly have grown to absolutely hate Windows 8 and the more I use it the more I loathe having to switch to it. I did not realize until it was gone the extent to which I used the Start menu and you just cannot easily duplicate that loss with the metro start menu. The metro start menu is, literally, completely useless.

That said, Powershell 3.0 is pretty slick and some of the changes it brings finally makes Windows scripting tolerable for the first time in history but I don't think it makes up for the "Touch My Balls" feature that 8/2012 force on you.


Have you considered icons on the desktop? No clicks at all for all of your little icons.
 
2013-01-13 02:58:25 PM

LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."


There's change, and there's unnecessary change. Sure make things faster, make things more intuitive. Don't change what doesn't need it. Garbage like Aero or Metro is unnecessary and change just for change's sake and to make things prettier, and in Aero's case (at least initially) waste computer resources to do so. I can't speak for Metro's resource use since I haven't bothered testing Windows 8 yet. Personally I disabled the vast majority of Aero's features in 7, and I know plenty of other moderately advanced computer users who also do so. A number of those same people say 8 is much the same with Metro, disable a number of the features and change the settings and it's not that bad. So in cases like that, why make those changes at all if it takes disabling them to make the computer perform in a way the user is comfortable with? The software should be adapted to people, not people adapting to the software.
 
2013-01-13 03:00:29 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: LasersHurt: I just don't get it... "Do not change features of Windows. However, change is natural and happens sometimes. But don't do it to Windows."

There's change, and there's unnecessary change. Sure make things faster, make things more intuitive. Don't change what doesn't need it. Garbage like Aero or Metro is unnecessary and change just for change's sake and to make things prettier, and in Aero's case (at least initially) waste computer resources to do so. I can't speak for Metro's resource use since I haven't bothered testing Windows 8 yet. Personally I disabled the vast majority of Aero's features in 7, and I know plenty of other moderately advanced computer users who also do so. A number of those same people say 8 is much the same with Metro, disable a number of the features and change the settings and it's not that bad. So in cases like that, why make those changes at all if it takes disabling them to make the computer perform in a way the user is comfortable with? The software should be adapted to people, not people adapting to the software.


But how do you prove it's unnecessary? By what metrics do you measure the necessity of such a thing?

I will agree that a simple option to disable it and use a Start Menu would have been easy to make, and very popular with users who don't like change. I can't for the life of me imagine why they were such sticklers about not adding such an option.
 
2013-01-13 03:04:12 PM

LasersHurt: Have you considered icons on the desktop? No clicks at all for all of your little icons.


If that were an equivalent I could do it with the start menu using groups. It's the loss of the nesting structure that's a problem. One example would be my PBX shortcut. On the Windows start menu I could highlight the icon and it would display a list of my recent config files that I loaded (like the Steam shortcut does with games, as an example). To duplicate that, I'd have to create four different PBX shortcuts, one for each file.

Regardless, like many, many other admins, I've simply learned a shiatton of the windows keyboard shortcuts I never used before and .msc files so now I just use the keyboard for everything. That and the pseudo-quicklaunch feature (which the assholes disabled by default to boot for no apparent reason...).

Which brings us back to the point: don't change shiat unless you're making it better. It seems to me that if you have to abandon the pointing device to remain productive, maybe your touch interface isn't really that great. Windows Vista/7 was a step backwards in interface design. 8 pushes it off the damn cliff.
What it comes down to is that pushing a consumer-oriented design philosophy into a Server OS and a Professional OS is just stupid.

/ no, I will not buy one of your phones to manage my datacenter, Microsoft...
 
2013-01-13 03:06:06 PM
Windows 8 is fine, I love it actually. What I farking hate is how many software developers are telling end users to get bent and that they aren't supporting Windows 8 and you're an asshole for installing it.
 
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