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(BBC)   Good: Eskimos cutting blocks of ice from the ground to use for refrigeration. Bad: Chinese cutting blocks from the air to use as fuel for furnaces   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 39
    More: Scary, historical capitals of China, respiratory tract infections, World Health Organization, air pollution  
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25089 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jan 2013 at 2:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-13 03:04:28 PM
4 votes:
Sounds like Beijing is going the "Pittsburgh" route of modernization.

It worked for Pittsburgh.

// You do have to stop sometime though.
/// Pittsburgh's solution was to get all its steel manufacturing shipped to... China.
2013-01-13 03:03:54 PM
4 votes:

Brontes: Anyone know what caused this particular bout of high levels?  Is this a particularly stagnant time of year for weather fronts that region or is it only going to get worse?


China is opening coal burning power plants at an alarming rate.  Plus, unlike the US, they don't enforce any environmental laws.  Also, even though they signed the Kyoto treaty, they are specifically categorized as a "developing nation", so don't have to adhere to any of those environmental laws.
2013-01-13 01:15:52 PM
4 votes:
China's air pollution can be seen from space. It's a huge thick blanket of gray brown asthma and cancer.
2013-01-13 03:06:32 PM
3 votes:
Donora, Pennsylvania 1948
The smog started building up in Donora on October 27, 1948. By the following day it was causing coughing and other signs of respiratory distress for many residents of the community in the Monongahela River valley. Many of the illnesses and deaths were initially attributed to asthma. The smog continued until it rained on October 31, by which time 20 residents of Donora had died and approximately a third to one half of the town's population of 14,000 residents had been sickened. Sixty years later, the incident was described by The New York Times as "one of the worst air pollution disasters in the nation's history".[1] Even ten years after the incident, mortality rates in Donora were significantly higher than those in other communities nearby.[2]

rest of wiki article

I saw this the History Channel a few nights ago on one of those rare occasions that they were talking about history.
2013-01-13 03:06:12 PM
3 votes:
Air is unhealthy above 100 microgrammes. At 300, all children and elderly people should remain indoors.

Official Beijing city readings on Saturday suggested pollution levels over 400. Unofficial reading from a monitor at the US embassy recorded 800.

Last year Chinese authorities warned the US embassy not to publish its data. But the embassy said the measurements were for the benefit of embassy personnel and were not citywide.

Yes. This right here describes so much of the trouble with the Communists in Mainland China. Anything that makes Big Brother look bad or wrong is a lie and must be suppressed!
2013-01-13 03:01:53 PM
3 votes:

Allen. The end.: B-b-but capitalism!


Outsourcing pollution to avoid local standards is a huge part of capitalist globalization.
2013-01-13 02:54:59 PM
3 votes:
When I was studying abroad in Beijing, I would blow my nose and the contests were brown. I would wash my face in the evening, and the washcloth showed black streaks. Yeah, it might have been cleaner to take up smoking.
2013-01-13 12:41:40 PM
3 votes:
Anyone know what caused this particular bout of high levels?  Is this a particularly stagnant time of year for weather fronts that region or is it only going to get worse?
2013-01-13 07:28:22 PM
2 votes:
[shrug]

China has no particular need to adhere to GLOBAL standards when it has no national standards of its own. And it has no national standards because the government does not need to be responsive to the people's needs in the same way Western governments do. China is just a big corporation, if you want to look at it that way, and what it cares about is making product. As with any corporation, the bottom line is making their product cheaply enough to sell at a profit. Regulations that increase the cost of manufacture are only enacted if they can be done without hurting the profit margin.

So scolding China for hurting their people's health, or impacting the world environment is about as effective as scolding BP for harming sea turtles or fouling the beaches with oil runoff. They just don't care, because the people, or the sea turtles, don't buy their product. What needs to happen is for the world to hit China where they'll notice, in this case in the pocketbook. Start tying tariffs to China's air pollution levels: create a surtax for every ppb their air is above "unhealthful" for instance, or give price breaks to goods produced in areas with measurably lower levels of air pollution over a given period.

If the EU or America made it clear China can do what it wants with the air but it won't have a market for its exports if they keep polluting, there would be some action in China.
2013-01-13 04:31:26 PM
2 votes:
Remember, China is the world leader in green energy. Coal is only evil when it's used in the US
2013-01-13 03:55:26 PM
2 votes:

xria: middlewaytao: Allen. The end.: B-b-but capitalism!

Outsourcing pollution to avoid local standards is a huge part of capitalist globalization.

Which will work until there is no-one with a poor enough economy that they will be willing to die from breathing or drinking polluted water, and then many forms of pollution will drop as it will be "priced in"/regulated roughly equally in all places.
/obviously this won't work with CO2 as the people generating in and the people that suffer from it is far less linked than the types of pollution in the article


The population here wouldn't accept it, we have a small amount of control over the government. The population there doesn't accept it, yet they have basically no control over their government.

If corporate libertarians understood what Adam Smith meant by the "invisible hand", they would realize the industries of his time would be polluting their own back yards, and not do it, outsourcing was completely a impracticable idea in that era.

So here we are with the absurd situation of "capitalist" profiting from communist oppression.
2013-01-13 03:52:09 PM
2 votes:
Any republitards in here want to describe the cognitive dissonance they feel when reading about this. Can we see why environmental protection laws might be a good thing now? Or should we be more like China?
2013-01-13 03:07:22 PM
2 votes:

digistil: Schadenfreudianslip: When I was studying abroad in Beijing, I would blow my nose and the contests were brown. I would wash my face in the evening, and the washcloth showed black streaks. Yeah, it might have been cleaner to take up smoking.

What kind of contests were you entered into?? Wait, I don't want to know.


Damn autocorrect. I meant contents.
2013-01-13 03:00:08 PM
2 votes:
Don't worry, the invisible hand of the free market will take care of this.
2013-01-13 07:59:36 PM
1 votes:
@Krug9999

That is Aerogel and it is the best insulator available today, able to insulate you from an propane blowtorch, and while probably not a recommended daily dietary substance, is completely edible, and is actually 95% air, IIRC.
http://www.gizmag.com/polymer-aerogel-stronger-flexible-nasa/23955/
2013-01-13 07:41:26 PM
1 votes:
www.boingboing.net
What a block of air might look like.
2013-01-13 07:35:36 PM
1 votes:

CruiserTwelve: Spirit Hammer: For all there is to dislike about some of the onerous and niche serving EPA rules, as a person who was alive and noticing in the 60's and 70's, the air is much better because of them.

Yep. I remember when Lake Erie used to catch fire every so often. Haven't heard about that in many years. Also never hear about the "brown cloud" that used to hover over Denver every winter.


As a child, I lived in a neighborhood that was a mile and a half from "the see-ment plant".
The dust that settled from there would absolutely destroy car finishes.
I remember it was a constant topic of conversation among the grownups; how to clean that stuff from cars or fix the damage. Dudes would wash their cars at dawn every day, and discuss using vinegar to cut it.
Eventually the plant (Penn Dixie?) was forced to install "electrostatic precipitators" and the problem went away.
Shortly after, Penn Dixie went bankrupt and closed down.
So everything was cool.
2013-01-13 07:28:25 PM
1 votes:

bbcard1: This is why what we do in the US has only a minimal effect on the global environment.


Congratulations, this is the stupidest thing I've read today.
2013-01-13 05:18:29 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: namatad: OgreMagi: China is opening coal burning power plants at an alarming rate.  Plus, unlike the US, they don't enforce any environmental laws.  Also, even though they signed the Kyoto treaty, they are specifically categorized as a "developing nation", so don't have to adhere to any of those environmental laws.

My dad tells stories of growing up in Chicago back in the days of coal. (30s and 40s)
Coughing up coal dust. So we were there not that long ago, and China was frozen in place for 50 years by the revolution. I am sure that they will come around ... in 10-50 more years.

Kyoto Treaty? ROFL
What a worthless POS. China and India were exempt. China and India increased CO2 during the Treaty period by a larger amount than the total theoretical reduction if all other nations had complied. Unless we are going to include China and India, things will only continue to get "worse" at an increasing rate. And unless we are willing to force China and India to comply, why are we even pretending to reduce emissions?

/sorry, but reducing the increase by such a tiny amount has no effect in reality. your beliefs do not change reality.

Technically, China did comply with Kyoto.  Not one of the western nations met their treaty reduction requirements.  We did not sign the treaty because it set an impossible level for us to meet.  The treaty would best be described as, "let's destroy the U.S. economy".



That can't be right. A certain side keeps telling me that President Bush was history's greatest monster for not signing Kyoto.
2013-01-13 05:14:57 PM
1 votes:
JACKIE CHAN SAY AIR IN CHINA BEST IN WORLD
2013-01-13 05:12:11 PM
1 votes:
Yeah, you'll have to start paying more for your iPhone.... especially when I show up stoned, and can't be fired without a series of warnings and written violations that my union negotiates. If they're made in America, they'll be about $5000 each.

www.iphonbuzz.com
2013-01-13 04:57:31 PM
1 votes:

bbcard1: insano: Any republitards in here want to describe the cognitive dissonance they feel when reading about this. Can we see why environmental protection laws might be a good thing now? Or should we be more like China?

You get right on that...maybe you should schedule a flight to meet with the Chinese government to discuss your grievances... This is why what we do in the US has only a minimal effect on the global environment.


The US did super-pollution first and best, and continues to reap the rewards of having done so.

I'm not saying the US is to blame for the world's pollution problem, because it's really not. However, the US is the most powerful nation in history, and has taken on a role of global leadership; you can't just abdicate that self-appointed position when it's inconvenient. The US has decided it must lead, so, lead. Show the world how to do it right, do it profitably, and do it in such a way that quality of life goes up for all involved.
2013-01-13 04:41:57 PM
1 votes:
farm4.staticflickr.com
A good day in Beijing
2013-01-13 04:23:49 PM
1 votes:
This is a pic i saw recently from thier new anime theme park :(

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2013/january/GamingThemePa rk 18.jpg
2013-01-13 04:02:05 PM
1 votes:

Yogimus: insano: Any republitards in here want to describe the cognitive dissonance they feel when reading about this. Can we see why environmental protection laws might be a good thing now? Or should we be more like China?

Get those points in for your side!


I didn't make environmental protection an issue of sides; conservatives did that all on their own. In a rational world, everyone would recognize why protecting air quality, etc is important. Unfortunately, the EPA, greenhouse gas regulations, automobile emissions standards, etc, are all targets of conservative ridicule.
2013-01-13 03:43:10 PM
1 votes:
funny, all liberals want us to live like North Korea, Cuba and China.

Then, they blame capitalism and freedom for the problems in those countries, which are always horribly run.

Boy are liberals just retarded.
2013-01-13 03:38:11 PM
1 votes:
You smell that? That's freedom.

Freedom smells like that sometimes.
2013-01-13 03:32:32 PM
1 votes:

Brontes: Anyone know what caused this particular bout of high levels?  Is this a particularly stagnant time of year for weather fronts that region or is it only going to get worse?



if i had to wager a guess it would be the chinese government's not giving a fark about pollution so long as the money flows.
2013-01-13 03:30:59 PM
1 votes:
Every developing nation goes through this cycle. It is unavoidable. The US and many other developed nations today are not immune to it themselves. Just that many of the younger ones have either forgotten or have not witness it first hand. Just like the US, China will one day realized the negative price of capitalism and development and get their environment under control. Of course by then the avg Chinese will be biatching about how or why countries like Indonesia, Philipines, Brazil etc are getting the environment into shait not ever realizing their's was not too dissimilar just a couple decades earlier.
2013-01-13 03:23:52 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: Yes, China was frozen in place because of communism, but they are building all their coal plants without implementing any of the modern technology that is available to reduce emissions.  It's not like they need to reinvent the stuff.


Anyone know how much scrubbers and CO2 sequestration systems add to the cost of coal plant construction?
2013-01-13 03:20:45 PM
1 votes:

namatad: OgreMagi: China is opening coal burning power plants at an alarming rate.  Plus, unlike the US, they don't enforce any environmental laws.  Also, even though they signed the Kyoto treaty, they are specifically categorized as a "developing nation", so don't have to adhere to any of those environmental laws.

My dad tells stories of growing up in Chicago back in the days of coal. (30s and 40s)
Coughing up coal dust. So we were there not that long ago, and China was frozen in place for 50 years by the revolution. I am sure that they will come around ... in 10-50 more years.

Kyoto Treaty? ROFL
What a worthless POS. China and India were exempt. China and India increased CO2 during the Treaty period by a larger amount than the total theoretical reduction if all other nations had complied. Unless we are going to include China and India, things will only continue to get "worse" at an increasing rate. And unless we are willing to force China and India to comply, why are we even pretending to reduce emissions?

/sorry, but reducing the increase by such a tiny amount has no effect in reality. your beliefs do not change reality.


Technically, China did comply with Kyoto.  Not one of the western nations met their treaty reduction requirements.  We did not sign the treaty because it set an impossible level for us to meet.  The treaty would best be described as, "let's destroy the U.S. economy".

Yes, China was frozen in place because of communism, but they are building all their coal plants without implementing any of the modern technology that is available to reduce emissions.  It's not like they need to reinvent the stuff.
2013-01-13 03:14:51 PM
1 votes:

middlewaytao: Allen. The end.: B-b-but capitalism!

Outsourcing pollution to avoid local standards is a huge part of capitalist globalization.


Which will work until there is no-one with a poor enough economy that they will be willing to die from breathing or drinking polluted water, and then many forms of pollution will drop as it will be "priced in"/regulated roughly equally in all places.
/obviously this won't work with CO2 as the people generating in and the people that suffer from it is far less linked than the types of pollution in the article
2013-01-13 03:13:24 PM
1 votes:

Schadenfreudianslip: When I was studying abroad in Beijing, I would blow my nose and the contests were brown. I would wash my face in the evening, and the washcloth showed black streaks. Yeah, it might have been cleaner to take up smoking.


Yeah, my wife is from Shanghai. She didn't realize that snot wasn't brown/black until she came here.
2013-01-13 03:09:32 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: China is opening coal burning power plants at an alarming rate.  Plus, unlike the US, they don't enforce any environmental laws.  Also, even though they signed the Kyoto treaty, they are specifically categorized as a "developing nation", so don't have to adhere to any of those environmental laws.


My dad tells stories of growing up in Chicago back in the days of coal. (30s and 40s)
Coughing up coal dust. So we were there not that long ago, and China was frozen in place for 50 years by the revolution. I am sure that they will come around ... in 10-50 more years.

Kyoto Treaty? ROFL
What a worthless POS. China and India were exempt. China and India increased CO2 during the Treaty period by a larger amount than the total theoretical reduction if all other nations had complied. Unless we are going to include China and India, things will only continue to get "worse" at an increasing rate. And unless we are willing to force China and India to comply, why are we even pretending to reduce emissions?

/sorry, but reducing the increase by such a tiny amount has no effect in reality. your beliefs do not change reality.
2013-01-13 03:09:30 PM
1 votes:

whatshisname: The good news is you can still get stuff cheap at Wal-mart


I know someone who boycotts Wal-mart because of the chinese outsourcing, yet has an apartment full of big brand electronics bought from "reputable retailers".
2013-01-13 03:04:54 PM
1 votes:

whatshisname: The good news is you can still get stuff cheap at Wal-mart


Which is good news to all those people who are bargain shopping themselves into the unemployment line.
2013-01-13 02:59:39 PM
1 votes:

Schadenfreudianslip: When I was studying abroad in Beijing, I would blow my nose and the contests were brown. I would wash my face in the evening, and the washcloth showed black streaks. Yeah, it might have been cleaner to take up smoking.


What kind of contests were you entered into?? Wait, I don't want to know.
2013-01-13 02:58:50 PM
1 votes:
Deadly smog is a small price to pay to be free of all those job-killing regulations.
2013-01-13 02:51:22 PM
1 votes:
 
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