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(Addicting Info)   Required teaching in sex-education classes that homosexuality is criminal. It is not just a bigoted and dumbass idea, it's the law ... in Alabama   (addictinginfo.org) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, Alabama, curriculum, educators, Human Rights Campaign  
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3333 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jan 2013 at 2:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-12 03:08:52 PM
well i can see this ending up in court at some point and the State of Alabama fighting it to the bitter end wasting a lot of tax payer dollars.

The government needs to get out of people bedrooms and and allow people to marry who they wish and to appease the religious nuts put in a provision allowing churches to turn down marrying gay and lesbian couples as i doubt not being able to marry in a church willbother them much so long as they can legally marry.

Marriage is more than anything else legal contract with quasi religious overtones.
 
2013-01-12 03:09:49 PM

eraser8: I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised that your map shows San Diego County in blue.  I always thought of San Diego as pretty Republican.


It was...up through the 2004 elections. Since then it has voted increasingly Democratic.
 
2013-01-12 03:10:35 PM

atomic-age: GhostFish: It's on the books, but it's not enforced from what I've been told.

This came up on reddit, and lots of Alabamans chimed to in to say that they were never taught this way in school.

Yes, but Alabama is far more reactionary, regressive, and just plain horrible now. I graduated college in Alabama in 1994 and got the fark out. It's worse now.


Agreed. I graduated in 96 and finally escaped in 2000.
Every visit back there just reinforces all the reasons I left.
 
2013-01-12 03:12:36 PM

EngineerAU: Via Infinito: I was surprised to see that Orange county is red, but then I remembered that's where Saddleback is.

Yeah, Orange County has long been known as the right wing enclave of southern California.


I thought that was where my in-laws live and they are extremely pro-Obama, but apparently they live just over the line in Riverside County. My Saddleback Church-attending sister-in-law is a different story...
 
2013-01-12 03:20:21 PM

Stone Meadow: Lionel Mandrake: But outside the largest "city," where I live (population 7500), it's fkn backwoods Mississippi.

Lemme guess...Glenn Co.?


Del Norte, top left.

Actually moved (back) here after being in Glenn for a couple of years.  At least DN has incredible natural beauty, but Glenn, while it has a few beautiful parts, is very, very "meh" in the natural wonder category.
 
2013-01-12 03:25:21 PM

grimlock1972: well i can see this ending up in court at some point and the State of Alabama fighting it to the bitter end wasting a lot of tax payer dollars.

The government needs to get out of people bedrooms and and allow people to marry who they wish and to appease the religious nuts put in a provision allowing churches to turn down marrying gay and lesbian couples as i doubt not being able to marry in a church willbother them much so long as they can legally marry.

Marriage is more than anything else legal contract with quasi religious overtones.


Freedom means small government unless two consenting male adults have teh buttsex. Then big government is ok. Got it?

Teh buttsex is only for their teenage bible thumping daughters to remain virgins. Thus it is written.
 
2013-01-12 03:26:35 PM

Somacandra: sgnilward: There's gonna be some educatin' going on once the repeal of Prop 8 becomes law of the land...

Well, uh...I'm not sure about that...

FTFA: Contrary to what is reflected in this statute, same-sex sexual activity was legalized in the state in 2003, when the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in struck down all state laws banning sodomy. Not surprisingly, the Alabama legislature has not moved to repeal its now unenforceable state anti-sodomy law.

If they didn't repeal the state law in response to the SCOTUS's decision in Lawrence v. Texas, they aren't going to repeal it because of another SCOTUS decision either. Not unless someone manages to finagle a mandamus writ on the AL Legislature and I don't see that happening.


Oh, I'm sure Alabama's going to fight that tooth and nail--this is the state that still can't manage to get their Jim Crow laws off the books after all--but they aren't going to able to keep kids from knowing that marriage equality exists and that the law of the land treats gay people no differently than straight people. Heck, all of the inevitable biatching is going to have the unintended consequence of letting kids know that's what the law is.
 
2013-01-12 03:27:16 PM

Rik01: This whole Gay thing is starting to become similar to how it was for the blacks before and during the Civil Rights movement.

Alabama was one of the states which would argue stubbornly how blacks were inferior and didn't deserve the rights given to other folks. They held on to many of their segregation laws long after other states had repealed their own.

It was a long, hard fight for Civil Rights and, apparently, Gays are going to have to face a similar one, encountering the same excuses that have been brought up for segregation over the decades. They're going to face massive walls of STUPID on all sides no matter what they do.



Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.
 
2013-01-12 03:30:19 PM

Via Infinito: Take me with you!


So  Via Infinito, how did you wind up in Alabama, assuming you're in this state as well and not from around these here parts?  Me, I'm Southern born and raised (see bio). I retired from the Air Force in Florida, but had to move to Huntsville after a layoff.

Eventual goal is to completely retire back to Florida someday ... but that's a long way off.
 
2013-01-12 03:30:53 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Stone Meadow: Lionel Mandrake: But outside the largest "city," where I live (population 7500), it's fkn backwoods Mississippi.

Lemme guess...Glenn Co.?

Del Norte, top left.

Actually moved (back) here after being in Glenn for a couple of years.  At least DN has incredible natural beauty, but Glenn, while it has a few beautiful parts, is very, very "meh" in the natural wonder category.


Ah, yeah...DN is a beautiful place. I can't handle the weather up there, though...Seattle...south.

/Bay Area
 
2013-01-12 03:33:21 PM

Via Infinito: I was surprised to see that Orange county is red, but then I remembered that's where Saddleback is.


I've been to Orange county a number of times for work in the last few months, and it seems more like "affluent suburb" red, instead of "meth and oxy" red. You know -- the kind of place where everyone is in debt up to their eyeballs, but still has to buy a new Audi because the neighbors have started looking disapprovingly at the four year old BMW they're driving now.

Most people I've met from Orange county seemed very socially liberal, but lived so far beyond their means that they actually saw even another $80 a week in taxes as a crushing blow to the pocketbook. It really felt like the kind of place Democrats could flip just on social policy, but if Democrats do manage to flip the affluent suburbs I can't even imagine how the Republican party would survive.
 
2013-01-12 03:36:24 PM

Via Infinito: atomic-age: GhostFish: It's on the books, but it's not enforced from what I've been told.

This came up on reddit, and lots of Alabamans chimed to in to say that they were never taught this way in school.

Yes, but Alabama is far more reactionary, regressive, and just plain horrible now. I graduated college in Alabama in 1994 and got the fark out. It's worse now.

Agreed. I graduated in 96 and finally escaped in 2000.
Every visit back there just reinforces all the reasons I left.


My hometown actually looks less shabby in the downtown area, but seeing the neighborhood I grew up in made me cry. My mother had a hard time selling her house to move to a smaller one. The Realturds™ refused to show the house to white people. Think about that for a minute. Rather than actually *try* to sell the house, they eliminated a substantial percentage of potential buyers because of some idea that the neighborhood should be 100% black. And apparently rental too.

By 2012, it was completely down at the heels. I recognized only two names on mailboxes. Some of that is due to the age of the neighbors, but still, it was hard to see cars on lawns, peeling paint, tired roofs, and general neglect. Some of those houses were absolute jewels of midcentury modern architecture. Our neighborhood was the first middle class one in town to welcome black families. It was a mixed neighborhood with many medical and educational professionals, as well as affluent blue collar workers. (Yes, I am old; I remember steel mills and tire factories that paid better than my parents' white collar jobs.) It was a really nice place to grow up. Everyone got along, and there was ZERO crime. Then some people started renting the houses out, and now it's just sad.

When I was house looking this last time, I consciously looked for a house that reminded me of the ones from my childhood. I remember how proud my mother was of our house, and rightly so.

/uncool story, sis
 
2013-01-12 03:37:02 PM

Lost Thought 00: So they have a law that requires teachers to lie to their students?

Simple solution: pass a new law, or better yet State Constitutional Amendment, that requires that teachers only tell the truth to their students, without enumerating specific instances. Who would vote against that?


Alabamans, for one.

People who genuinely believe that facts have a liberal bias, people who want to legally Jesus-ify the American History textbooks, people who believe that evolution is "just a theory" and want competing "theories" taught in biology classes (so long as the only competing theory taught is Creationism Intelligent Design), people who claim to be "pro-life" but want no effort to be made to prevent unwanted pregnancies or provide medical care for newborns and young children (and in fact want to increase the number of unwanted pregnancies and reduce the available medical care for newborns and children), and people who don't want anyone to remember that Republican policies which were passed by a Republican Congress and implemented by a Republican President named George W. Bush are what nearly destroyed America last decade.

But I repeat myself.
 
2013-01-12 03:37:32 PM

AirForceVet: Via Infinito: Take me with you!

So  Via Infinito, how did you wind up in Alabama, assuming you're in this state as well and not from around these here parts?  Me, I'm Southern born and raised (see bio). I retired from the Air Force in Florida, but had to move to Huntsville after a layoff.

Eventual goal is to completely retire back to Florida someday ... but that's a long way off.


I'm actually from AL. Joined the Army after college and escaped. Eventually got stationed back here in GA. Dammit. It took less than 3 months after getting back to the states for me to have the burning desire to leave again.
 
2013-01-12 03:41:13 PM
Damnit, this is the same part of the country that has produced Twain, Faulkner, Capote, Williams.
 
2013-01-12 03:44:52 PM

MBrady: Rik01: This whole Gay thing is starting to become similar to how it was for the blacks before and during the Civil Rights movement.

Alabama was one of the states which would argue stubbornly how blacks were inferior and didn't deserve the rights given to other folks. They held on to many of their segregation laws long after other states had repealed their own.

It was a long, hard fight for Civil Rights and, apparently, Gays are going to have to face a similar one, encountering the same excuses that have been brought up for segregation over the decades. They're going to face massive walls of STUPID on all sides no matter what they do.

Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


And why shouldn't someone be free to marry someone of the same sex? Who would be harmed by such a thing?

If a man can marry any woman he chooses, why can't a woman marry any woman she chooses?

If a woman can marry any man she chooses, why can't a man marry any man he chooses?

The fact that those last two questions even need to be asked is exactly why same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue.
 
2013-01-12 03:45:50 PM

adamgreeney: cman: mrshowrules: In addition to it being absolutely disgusting it is also factually wrong.

It is doubly factually wrong actually.  Not only were sodomy laws struck down in that State it was neither necessarily or exclusively a homosexual act.

I wonder if there is a State regulation or law against an official misrepresenting State law.

I think this will end up being one of those incidents where the fed gov will send in troops to uphold SCOTUS decisions.

Federal troops publicly upholding couples right to sodomize each other? Go on....


Sounds like the Ned Beatty scene in "Deliverance", now with the 101st Airborne.
 
2013-01-12 03:48:50 PM

MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


So? Now straights have the right to marry anyone of the same sex too. No discrimination (that's a civil right) and nobody loses.
 
2013-01-12 03:55:08 PM

MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


And, before Loving v Virginia.  Whites were free to marry anyone white and blacks -- and other non-whites -- were free to marry anyone not white.

Wasn't that accommodation enough?  Shouldn't that be sufficient for anybody?  Does it really matter that you're not allowed to marry the person you love most in the world?  After all, you're allowed to marry somebody.  Isn't that good enough?  Isn't that all the Constitution requires?

If I've misunderstood your position, please correct me.  Please explain the difference.
 
2013-01-12 03:55:40 PM

cman: Aint no way in hell legislation would be willingly passed that would change that law in Alabama.


This is the state that still has segregation of schools enshrined in its constitution. In fact, voters in 2004 and 20-freaking-12 voted to keep the segregation provisions in the constitution.
 
2013-01-12 03:55:43 PM

The Larch: Via Infinito: I was surprised to see that Orange county is red, but then I remembered that's where Saddleback is.

I've been to Orange county a number of times for work in the last few months, and it seems more like "affluent suburb" red, instead of "meth and oxy" red. You know -- the kind of place where everyone is in debt up to their eyeballs, but still has to buy a new Audi because the neighbors have started looking disapprovingly at the four year old BMW they're driving now.

Most people I've met from Orange county seemed very socially liberal, but lived so far beyond their means that they actually saw even another $80 a week in taxes as a crushing blow to the pocketbook. It really felt like the kind of place Democrats could flip just on social policy, but if Democrats do manage to flip the affluent suburbs I can't even imagine how the Republican party would survive.


Your observation is spot on, inasmuch as it agrees with my own firsthand observation. I was shocked at the excess. "Yeah it's great that you're bringing home 8K a month, but why oh why are you spending 9K?"
 
2013-01-12 03:56:29 PM

MBrady: Rik01: This whole Gay thing is starting to become similar to how it was for the blacks before and during the Civil Rights movement.

Alabama was one of the states which would argue stubbornly how blacks were inferior and didn't deserve the rights given to other folks. They held on to many of their segregation laws long after other states had repealed their own.

It was a long, hard fight for Civil Rights and, apparently, Gays are going to have to face a similar one, encountering the same excuses that have been brought up for segregation over the decades. They're going to face massive walls of STUPID on all sides no matter what they do.

Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


And black were free to marry anyone who was black before Loving v. Virginia. C'mon, you can do better than that.
 
2013-01-12 03:56:40 PM

Stone Meadow: Lionel Mandrake: Stone Meadow: Lionel Mandrake: But outside the largest "city," where I live (population 7500), it's fkn backwoods Mississippi.

Lemme guess...Glenn Co.?

Del Norte, top left.

Actually moved (back) here after being in Glenn for a couple of years.  At least DN has incredible natural beauty, but Glenn, while it has a few beautiful parts, is very, very "meh" in the natural wonder category.

Ah, yeah...DN is a beautiful place. I can't handle the weather up there, though...Seattle...south.

/Bay Area


Nah, it only rains once.  But it starts in September and ends in May.
 
2013-01-12 03:58:28 PM

Ilmarinen: ******: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

So? Now straights have the right to marry anyone of the same sex too. No discrimination (that's a civil right) and nobody loses.


I think we've been trolled.  That Farker meets the definition of threadshiatter.  And, for me, at least, he's now Farkied as such.
 
2013-01-12 03:59:17 PM
And they wonder why God keeps sending tornadoes their way.
 
2013-01-12 04:03:34 PM

Proteios1: Shouldn't be teaching homosexuality to minors anyways. The whole concept is stupid.


teaching, homosexuality or minors
which concept is stupid??

or is it just you that is stupid?
 
2013-01-12 04:04:56 PM
atomic-age:

During a rare nostalgic moment when I was visiting last year, I decided I wanted to drive by and see my old neighborhood (my parents moved away long ago). I thought it might be cute to show my daughter where I grew up. I was horrified. It was much the same as your description. I wish I hadn't gone. What has been seen cannot be farking unseen.
 
2013-01-12 04:05:37 PM

MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


You're an idiot.

"Stop whining.  You have the right to be just like me!"

deeeeeerrp
 
2013-01-12 04:11:53 PM
Alabama would reinstate slavery if they thought they could get away with it. Why do we keep that state around, again?
 
2013-01-12 04:13:06 PM
You christians are farking nuts. Get some help. Maybe some self-rapturing or something...
 
2013-01-12 04:13:42 PM

MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.


F*ck off.
 
2013-01-12 04:16:06 PM

Lionel Mandrake: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

You're an idiot.

"Stop whining.  You have the right to be just like me!"

deeeeeerrp


Sigh. The morons are coming here.

"WAAAHHHHH!!! You don't like me because I don't conform to your laws."
 
2013-01-12 04:16:22 PM

Via Infinito: I was surprised to see that Orange county is red, but then I remembered that's where Saddleback is.


you haven't been keeping up on the news from there then.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/14/ca-judge-suggests-if-vagina- no t-shredded-its-not-real-rape/

that's a superior court judge from orange county. that report is not an isolated incident for the county either.
 
2013-01-12 04:18:04 PM

Stone Meadow: Krymson Tyde: For the first time in my life I am looking for a job outside of the southeast US.

I've gotten just that fed up with the ignorance and bigotry here.

If you move to Cali be sure to settle in a blue county. The Derp in our red counties takes a back seat to no one.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 335x570]

Come to think of it, though, the blue counties are the nice ones to live and work in anyway. So there's that.


San Bernardino, Riverside and the San Diego areas have a heavy amount of derpers though.
 
2013-01-12 04:29:50 PM
hero tag for alabama.
 
2013-01-12 04:40:10 PM

utah dude: hero tag for alabama.


Oh, can't wait to see where this is going.
 
2013-01-12 04:46:52 PM

MBrady: Lionel Mandrake: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

You're an idiot.

"Stop whining.  You have the right to be just like me!"

deeeeeerrp

Sigh. The morons are coming here.

"WAAAHHHHH!!! You don't like me because I don't conform to your laws."


That's it. Keep reeling em in.
 
2013-01-12 04:50:28 PM

Fart_Machine: MBrady: Lionel Mandrake: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

You're an idiot.

"Stop whining.  You have the right to be just like me!"

deeeeeerrp

Sigh. The morons are coming here.

"WAAAHHHHH!!! You don't like me because I don't conform to your laws."

That's it. Keep reeling em in.


The sad thing is, there really are people out there who think this way. And they vote.
 
2013-01-12 04:54:54 PM
..........but inbreeding with yore cusin' is jes fine!
 
2013-01-12 04:55:31 PM

zerkalo: Alabama education: first in football, last in every other metric


Football has Jesus beat in states like 'bama.
 
2013-01-12 05:02:27 PM

eraser8: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

And, before Loving v Virginia.  Whites were free to marry anyone white and blacks -- and other non-whites -- were free to marry anyone not white.

Wasn't that accommodation enough?  Shouldn't that be sufficient for anybody?  Does it really matter that you're not allowed to marry the person you love most in the world?  After all, you're allowed to marry somebody.  Isn't that good enough?  Isn't that all the Constitution requires?

If I've misunderstood your position, please correct me.  Please explain the difference.


Homesexuals want to be considered a class of people by depicting themselves as victims who, like blacks, have been denied civil rights. That way, they can make people like you think that those who oppose their political agenda are discriminating against them rather then their behavior. According to people like you, conservatives are all bigots on par with racists and are opposed to fairness itself.

Nonsense! The comparison to homosexuality to race is completely invalid. Skin color is benign. Sexual behavior is not. Having a certain skin color does not hurt anyone. Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. Sexual behavior is always a choice, race never is. You will find many former homosexuals, but you will not find a former black person.

Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior. Homosexuals are not a class of people anymore than heterosexuals are a class of people. We are males and females, not straights and gays.

Why should we start classifying people by their desires? Because if we start to classify people by what they desire to do sexually, then why not give people with all sexual desires special marriage rights? On what grounds can you say that same sex marriage is fine, but marriage involving polygamy, incest, and bestiality is not?
 
2013-01-12 05:05:16 PM

Somacandra: mrshowrules: It is doubly factually wrong actually. Not only were sodomy laws struck down in that State it was neither necessarily or exclusively a homosexual act.

Hmmm.

FTFA: 8) An emphasis, in a factual manner and from a public health perspective, that homosexuality is not a lifestyle acceptable to the general public and that homosexual conduct is a criminal offense under the laws of the state.

The first bolded part may or may not be true depending on the shifting winds of public opinion, but as long as the law attributes the second bolded part to the "laws of the state" then its not inaccurate. Its just that the laws of the state cannot be enforced because of the Lawrence decision. But the laws themselves still exist on the books--if somehow Lawrence were to be reversed they would become enforceable again, as I understand it.


Regardless, sodomy is not necessarily or exclusively related to a homosexual lifestyle.
 
2013-01-12 05:06:03 PM

MBrady: eraser8: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

And, before Loving v Virginia.  Whites were free to marry anyone white and blacks -- and other non-whites -- were free to marry anyone not white.

Wasn't that accommodation enough?  Shouldn't that be sufficient for anybody?  Does it really matter that you're not allowed to marry the person you love most in the world?  After all, you're allowed to marry somebody.  Isn't that good enough?  Isn't that all the Constitution requires?

If I've misunderstood your position, please correct me.  Please explain the difference.

Homesexuals want to be considered a class of people by depicting themselves as victims who, like blacks, have been denied civil rights. That way, they can make people like you think that those who oppose their political agenda are discriminating against them rather then their behavior. According to people like you, conservatives are all bigots on par with racists and are opposed to fairness itself.

Nonsense! The comparison to homosexuality to race is completely invalid. Skin color is benign. Sexual behavior is not. Having a certain skin color does not hurt anyone. Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. Sexual behavior is always a choice, race never is. You will find many former homosexuals, but you will not find a former black person.

Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior. Homosexuals are not a class of people anymore than heterosexuals are a class of people. We are males and females, not straights and gays.

Why should we start classifying people by their desires? Because if we start to classify people by what they desire to do sexually, then why not give people with all sexual desires special marriage rights? On what grounds can you say that same sex marriage is fine, but marriage involving polygamy, incest, and bestiality is not?


Admit it, you hate the gays.
Also, you ever think those "ex-gays" never stopped being gay, but were just forced back into the closet? 'Cause that's what's happening. Being gay is not a choice. Being an asshole is, and I say you've chosen poorly.
 
2013-01-12 05:09:58 PM

MBrady: Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior.


according to a number of studies it's also genetically predisposed. you can look it up if you like. yes folks are indeed born gay and no you can't pray it away. given this Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. i'll bow out and leave you to your bigotry.
 
2013-01-12 05:17:25 PM

Curious: MBrady: Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior.

according to a number of studies it's also genetically predisposed. you can look it up if you like. yes folks are indeed born gay and no you can't pray it away. given this Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. i'll bow out and leave you to your bigotry.


Of course you can pray it away. Just look at paragons of totally straight manly manliness like Ted Haggard and Marcus Bachmann.
They're both on their knees for Jesus every chance they get. Jesus, in this case, is the kid that trims the hedges at their houses.
 
2013-01-12 05:18:38 PM

Curious: MBrady: Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior.

according to a number of studies it's also genetically predisposed. you can look it up if you like. yes folks are indeed born gay and no you can't pray it away. given this Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. i'll bow out and leave you to your bigotry.


Ahh, but here's how people like MBrady, and well, the entire ex-gay industry and indeed the entire right wing get away with saying that "Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior." By their definition, "homosexual" does not refer to attractions, it refers to behavior. If a person is not engaging in sexual  behaviorwith a person of the same sex, then by their definition the person is not "homosexual." They may be someone with "same sex attractions", but that just means they're a heterosexual with "temptations."

It's how ex-gay ministries say that they're successful. As long as someone isn't having sex with someone of the same sex, then by definition (where "homosexual" = "someone who has sex with persons of the same sex"), then the person can't possibly be a homosexual. It's why you'll hear proponents of ex-gay therapy refer to people as having "same sex attraction" or "SSA" but never, ever, refer to someone as "homosexual" or "gay" except as a behavior pattern or political identity.
 
2013-01-12 05:24:27 PM
Ex-gay ministries are a scam and harmful to those it sucks in. Such institutions should be illegal, IMO.
 
2013-01-12 05:39:07 PM

MBrady: eraser8: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

And, before Loving v Virginia.  Whites were free to marry anyone white and blacks -- and other non-whites -- were free to marry anyone not white.

Wasn't that accommodation enough?  Shouldn't that be sufficient for anybody?  Does it really matter that you're not allowed to marry the person you love most in the world?  After all, you're allowed to marry somebody.  Isn't that good enough?  Isn't that all the Constitution requires?

If I've misunderstood your position, please correct me.  Please explain the difference.

Homesexuals want to be considered a class of people by depicting themselves as victims who, like blacks, have been denied civil rights. That way, they can make people like you think that those who oppose their political agenda are discriminating against them rather then their behavior. According to people like you, conservatives are all bigots on par with racists and are opposed to fairness itself.

Nonsense! The comparison to homosexuality to race is completely invalid. Skin color is benign. Sexual behavior is not. Having a certain skin color does not hurt anyone. Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. Sexual behavior is always a choice, race never is. You will find many former homosexuals, but you will not find a former black person.

Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior. Homosexuals are not a class of people anymore than heterosexuals are a class of people. We are males and females, not straights and gays.

Why should we start classifying people by their desires? Because if we start to classify people by what they desire to do sexually, then why not give people with all sexual desires special marriage rights? On what grounds can you say that same sex marriage is fine, but marriage involving polygamy, incest, and bestiality is not?


Even granting for the sake of argument that sexual orientation isn't a protected class, the fact remains that a ban on same-sex marriage is gender discrimination in exactly the same way that a ban on miscegenation was racial discrimination (a particular race/gender is mandated or excluded from your pool of potential spouses based upon your own race/gender).

Although there's more leeway for gender-based discrimination than race-based discrimination, you still need a much better reason than "Jesus says so" or "seems icky." Otherwise, yes, you look like a bigot who is opposed to fairness.
 
2013-01-12 05:45:57 PM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: MBrady: eraser8: MBrady: Why is gay marriage a "civil rights" issue? It is not, since they are free to marry anyone of the opposite sex.

And, before Loving v Virginia.  Whites were free to marry anyone white and blacks -- and other non-whites -- were free to marry anyone not white.

Wasn't that accommodation enough?  Shouldn't that be sufficient for anybody?  Does it really matter that you're not allowed to marry the person you love most in the world?  After all, you're allowed to marry somebody.  Isn't that good enough?  Isn't that all the Constitution requires?

If I've misunderstood your position, please correct me.  Please explain the difference.

Homesexuals want to be considered a class of people by depicting themselves as victims who, like blacks, have been denied civil rights. That way, they can make people like you think that those who oppose their political agenda are discriminating against them rather then their behavior. According to people like you, conservatives are all bigots on par with racists and are opposed to fairness itself.

Nonsense! The comparison to homosexuality to race is completely invalid. Skin color is benign. Sexual behavior is not. Having a certain skin color does not hurt anyone. Homosexual behavior can and does hurt others. Sexual behavior is always a choice, race never is. You will find many former homosexuals, but you will not find a former black person.

Homosexuality is not an identity nor class, it is a behavior. Homosexuals are not a class of people anymore than heterosexuals are a class of people. We are males and females, not straights and gays.

Why should we start classifying people by their desires? Because if we start to classify people by what they desire to do sexually, then why not give people with all sexual desires special marriage rights? On what grounds can you say that same sex marriage is fine, but marriage involving polygamy, incest, and bestiality is not?

Even granting for the sake of argument t ...


Also, there's the simple argument that bestiality and pedophilia require by definition one party that cannot consent. Heterosexual rape is heterosexual, but one party did not consent, and it is therefore illegal.

As for polygamy, as long as everyone is capable of consent and does consent, I really don't have a huge problem with it. Several countries today allow polygamy.
 
2013-01-12 05:49:28 PM

Via Infinito: The Larch: Via Infinito: I was surprised to see that Orange county is red, but then I remembered that's where Saddleback is.

I've been to Orange county a number of times for work in the last few months, and it seems more like "affluent suburb" red, instead of "meth and oxy" red. You know -- the kind of place where everyone is in debt up to their eyeballs, but still has to buy a new Audi because the neighbors have started looking disapprovingly at the four year old BMW they're driving now.

Most people I've met from Orange county seemed very socially liberal, but lived so far beyond their means that they actually saw even another $80 a week in taxes as a crushing blow to the pocketbook. It really felt like the kind of place Democrats could flip just on social policy, but if Democrats do manage to flip the affluent suburbs I can't even imagine how the Republican party would survive.

Your observation is spot on, inasmuch as it agrees with my own firsthand observation. I was shocked at the excess. "Yeah it's great that you're bringing home 8K a month, but why oh why are you spending 9K?"


I moved to Orange County about 6 months ago, and both of you are pretty accurate. The local politicians really win on the "fiscal conservatism," (though there's staggering amounts of local corruption) and social issues are kind of ignored. Once you get to the more "inland" area of Orange County, you have some poorer communities that remain socially conservative, but this seems to be a shrinking minority.

It'll remain conservative for another 8 years or so, but as communities from LA and SD start sprawling increasingly sprawling into OC, I think it will flip around 2020.
 
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