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(ESPN)   Actual members of the baseball HOF are thrilled that the cheaters were kept out   (espn.go.com) divider line 200
    More: Cool, HOF, Hall of Fames, Dennis Eckersley, baseball hof, Rafael Palmeiro, Curt Schilling, Harmon Killebrew, Goose Gossage  
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1561 clicks; posted to Sports » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 11:41:04 AM
I wonder if they feel the same way about amphetamines and corticosteroids?
Especially amphetamines.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:58 AM

Sliding Carp: I wonder if they feel the same way about amphetamines and corticosteroids?
Especially amphetamines.


They got theirs. F*ck everyone else.
 
2013-01-10 11:49:37 AM

Sliding Carp: I wonder if they feel the same way about amphetamines and corticosteroids?
Especially amphetamines.


Don't forget the performance-enhancing effects of LSD:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14
 
2013-01-10 11:49:42 AM
Members of an exclusive club delight at others who are far more accomplished than themselves being kept out of the club? I, for one, am shocked.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:07 AM
HOFers always want to keep everyone out. Letting anyone else in dilutes the honor.

Off the top of my head, both Goose Gossage & Reggie Jackson had very public about faces after their election RE: who should be in the Hall.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:52 AM
Now, what would be interesting would be seeing the reactions of current, active players.
 
2013-01-10 11:55:44 AM
Yeah, darn those steroid users ruining the integrity of the game.

Ty Cobb assaulted an umpire and his wife, but at least he had integrity for the game.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:12 AM

Sliding Carp: I wonder if they feel the same way about amphetamines and corticosteroids?
Especially amphetamines.


"Greenies" don't permanently alter your physique. Corticosteroids aren't even in the same galaxy as the stuff Bonds was doing. (Yes, he was doing steroids, by his own admission - he claimed he thought he was taking flaxseed oil.  If you aren't aware of that, don't bother commenting on the issue of steroids or Bonds.) I don't get this obsession with the "all or nothing" mentality on the issue of steroids.  It's patently obvious Bonds was using steroids and did so specifically to mount an assault on the record books.  He will still have many chances to get in, and eventually I think he will, but there's nothing wrong, in my mind, with what has happened.  It will take time for writers and fans to come to grips with the steroid era.
 
2013-01-10 11:57:28 AM

DeWayne Mann: Now, what would be interesting would be seeing the reactions of current, active players.


I think the younger ones who have been coming up into the League since they instituted testing would be in agreement.
 
2013-01-10 11:57:31 AM
Biggio, Piazza and Bagwell got farked.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:16 AM
A HOF without it's top RBI man and top HR hitter is a sad HOF indeed.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:38 AM

Nabb1: It's patently obvious Bonds was using steroids and did so specifically to mount an assault on the record books.


That's the part that pisses me off the most about him. He was easily good enough to make the Hall on his own merits. He may have not made first-ballot, but that would have been more about his tendency to be a raging asshole at the very writers who vote on entry. He would have made it in eventually.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:47 AM
Gaylord Perry openly brags about loading the ball. No difference IMO, let them all in.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:34 PM

Sliding Carp: I wonder if they feel the same way about amphetamines and corticosteroids?
Especially amphetamines.


What about pine tar? Is that enough cheating to warrant banning?

/ kidding George
// never make tar jokes in front of him. Got the stink eye from him at a fanfest
/// Frank White needs in the hall.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:43 PM
Yeah, all those proven cheaters like Piazza, Bagwell, and Biggio.

As I said yesterday I think the proven steroid guys should still be in, but I can at least understand why people want them kept out. But Piazza and Bagwell? Any actual evidence would be nice. Those guys played more than well enough to deserve induction.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:47 PM

Marcus Aurelius: A HOF without it's top RBI man


Ignoring how terrible RBIs are

When did they kick Hank Aaron out? Was it because he was an admitted drug user?
 
2013-01-10 12:01:05 PM
There already are cheaters in the HoF, though.  They didn't use steroids, but that doesn't mean they were playing on the up-and-up, either.  You can't arbitrarily decide that one kind of cheater is more acceptable than another kind, and keep the less desirable group out.  I may not personally want Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens in the Hall of Fame, but their numbers say they should be there, and what you do is admit all these players and then make a wing all about the Steroid Era so that their accomplishments are placed in the proper context.
 
2013-01-10 12:01:34 PM
Why in the world is Bonds getting more votes than McGwire? They are both equally guilty and both came clean, right, so why is Bonds so much more acceptable than McGwire?
 
2013-01-10 12:01:58 PM

Nabb1: "Greenies" don't permanently alter your physique.


What does that have to do with anything?

Nabb1: Corticosteroids aren't even in the same galaxy as the stuff Bonds was doing.


What does that have to do with anything?

Nabb1: I don't get this obsession with the "all or nothing" mentality on the issue of steroids.


If you're claiming it's a moral issue, which is what everyone who is against them getting in is doing, then yeah, it's stupid to do it. It's laughable when all pros use whatever idiotic thing they think will help them get ahead (dumbass necklaces, bracelets, a certain routine in the batter's box, not stepping on baselines, etc.) and then act indignant when others use things that they think will help them get ahead and might actually work.

It's like guys that go out to bars and try to pick up women to cheat on their wives with claiming moral superiority over someone who actually does cheat on their wife. No, you're just as bad. You just suck at it.
 
2013-01-10 12:03:32 PM

cheesedog1: Why in the world is Bonds getting more votes than McGwire? They are both equally guilty and both came clean, right, so why is Bonds so much more acceptable than McGwire?


Because he was much, much better than McGwire?
 
2013-01-10 12:04:05 PM

ManateeGag: Biggio, Piazza and Bagwell got farked.


This! Bagwell is only guilty by association with no real ties to PEDs. Biggio will get in, probably in the next 2 years. He was really close for his first year at 69%. Never was much of a Piazza fan and don't know enough about his PED links but the Killer B's were fun to watch until the playoffs...
 
2013-01-10 12:04:29 PM

Coco LaFemme: They didn't use steroids


Some of them did.
 
2013-01-10 12:05:00 PM

cheesedog1: Why in the world is Bonds getting more votes than McGwire?


Because Bonds was a better player than McGwire?
 
2013-01-10 12:05:14 PM

cheesedog1: Why in the world is Bonds getting more votes than McGwire? They are both equally guilty and both came clean, right, so why is Bonds so much more acceptable than McGwire?


Bonds, for many years before he roided up, was the best five-tool player in the game, maybe the best ever.  McGwire was always one-dimensional - a masher.  There are arguments I will agree are valid for Bonds getting in despite his steroid usage.  I can't really think of any for McGwire.
 
2013-01-10 12:05:34 PM
Take that, Dale Murphy!  You thought you could cheat and get away with it, but now we got you.  You're busted!
 
2013-01-10 12:05:55 PM
Also, steroids were likely a part of the game like greenies were a part of the game like rule changes in the 1920s to increase offense were a part of the game. Let's not act as though MLB didn't have incentive in 1995 to maybe intentionally look the other way if not directly provide steroids to players and make it clear that there would be no repercussions for use.
 
2013-01-10 12:06:44 PM
phil niekro last seen laughing his ass off
 
2013-01-10 12:07:41 PM

Rapmaster2000: Take that, Dale Murphy!  You thought you could cheat and get away with it, but now we got you.  You're busted!


He just wasn't good enough.
 
2013-01-10 12:08:16 PM

IAmRight: Also, steroids were likely a part of the game like greenies were a part of the game like rule changes in the 1920s to increase offense were a part of the game. Let's not act as though MLB didn't have incentive in 1995 to maybe intentionally look the other way if not directly provide steroids to players and make it clear that there would be no repercussions for use.


Of course it did, but MLB doesn't decide who gets in the HOF.  It's an honor bestowed by the Baseball Writers Association of America (and then the Veterans Committee).  Blame Don Fehr and Bud Selig for creating the steroid era, but don't blame the HOF voters for ignoring what happened.
 
2013-01-10 12:09:36 PM

Nabb1: but don't blame the HOF voters for ignoring what happened.


Why not? Aren't they all, you know, Baseball Writers?
 
2013-01-10 12:10:55 PM

DeWayne Mann: Nabb1: but don't blame the HOF voters for ignoring what happened.

Why not? Aren't they all, you know, Baseball Writers?


Actually, I meant "don't blame HOF voters for not ignoring what happened in voting this year's class."  And there were writers who were raising the issue when it came out McGwire was taking Andro back in 1998.
 
2013-01-10 12:11:19 PM
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7528554/81795348#c81795348" target="_blank">Nabb1</a>:</b> <i>M</i>

Are you forgetting about Mcgwires Golden Glove awards? I agree that he may not have been as good all around as bonds, but he still was a very good fielder.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:03 PM

cheesedog1: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7528554/81795348#c81795348" target="_blank">Nabb1</a>:</b> <i>M</i>

Are you forgetting about Mcgwires Golden Glove awards? I agree that he may not have been as good all around as bonds, but he still was a very good fielder.


True, he was a pretty good defensive first baseman.  I still don't think he's in the HOF.  Take away the gaudy home run numbers, and he's still not in the HOF based on his defense.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:49 PM

Nabb1: DeWayne Mann: Nabb1: but don't blame the HOF voters for ignoring what happened.

Why not? Aren't they all, you know, Baseball Writers?

Actually, I meant "don't blame HOF voters for not ignoring what happened in voting this year's class."  And there were writers who were raising the issue when it came out McGwire was taking Andro back in 1998.


Which perfectly explains why the Baseball Writers elected Bonds MVP every year from 2001 to 2004.

Got it.
 
2013-01-10 12:15:28 PM
Tram never used roids. Baseball writers are full on retards.
 
2013-01-10 12:15:51 PM

Nabb1: Take away the gaudy home run numbers


Similarly, take away Hank Aaron's gaudy HR numbers, and he wouldn't have been a starting RF for most of his career.

Fun game, though.
 
2013-01-10 12:18:02 PM
who watches baseball?
 
2013-01-10 12:18:04 PM

revman64: This! Bagwell is only guilty by association with no real ties to PEDs. Biggio will get in, probably in the next 2 years. He was really close for his first year at 69%. Never was much of a Piazza fan and don't know enough about his PED links but the Killer B's were fun to watch until the playoffs...


There are no Piazza PED links. None. Zero. It's all baseball writer speculation, and we all know what unbiased folks most baseball writers are.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:00 PM

DeWayne Mann: Nabb1: Take away the gaudy home run numbers

Similarly, take away Hank Aaron's gaudy HR numbers, and he wouldn't have been a starting RF for most of his career.

Fun game, though.


A career .305 hitter who won two batting titles and had a fielding percentage of .976 wouldn't have started in right field for most of his career?  And he is the all time leader in RBIs.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:17 PM

zarberg: revman64: This! Bagwell is only guilty by association with no real ties to PEDs. Biggio will get in, probably in the next 2 years. He was really close for his first year at 69%. Never was much of a Piazza fan and don't know enough about his PED links but the Killer B's were fun to watch until the playoffs...

There are no Piazza PED links. None. Zero. It's all baseball writer speculation, and we all know what unbiased folks most baseball writers are.


Totally agree. If Piazza was juicing, he was way ahead of the curve and got away with it for a very long time:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/piazzmi01.shtml

Those numbers look clean to me. Put the man in.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:38 PM

IAmRight: Members of an exclusive club delight at others who are far more accomplished than themselves being kept out of the club? I, for one, am shocked.


Yeah, pretty much THIS.
 
2013-01-10 12:22:14 PM

Nabb1: Blame Don Fehr and Bud Selig for creating the steroid era


Why would I blame them? Baseball was actually entertaining for a little while there.

Nabb1: Actually, I meant "don't blame HOF voters for not ignoring what happened in voting this year's class."  And there were writers who were raising the issue when it came out McGwire was taking Andro back in 1998.


Why? They're idiots who were as involved as anyone. When they found the andro, what did they do? Write a couple of stories on it, then let it die until later, because it wasn't that big a deal.

I find it entirely appropriate that baseball writers are the ones who decide who gets into the Hall of Fame. Because they've been hall monitors their whole f*cking lives. The people with the inflated sense of self-worth given them by a poor decision-maker with actual authority who consider themselves morally superior to everyone else despite being craven cowards - afraid to do the "right" thing until they know that no one can hurt them.
 
2013-01-10 12:22:15 PM

Nabb1: DeWayne Mann: Nabb1: Take away the gaudy home run numbers

Similarly, take away Hank Aaron's gaudy HR numbers, and he wouldn't have been a starting RF for most of his career.

Fun game, though.

A career .305 hitter who won two batting titles and had a fielding percentage of .976 wouldn't have started in right field for most of his career?  And he is the all time leader in RBIs.


Are those stats reflective of removing his HR numbers?
 
2013-01-10 12:23:08 PM
Players, including at least one inner circle HOF member, were popping amphetamines since at least the 1950s.  They believe it gave them a competitive edge, they're illegal to take without a prescription, and yet I don't see anyone saying we should eject Willie Mays and Willie Stargell out of the HOF.   Gaylord Perry waltzed into the HOF and is incredibly open about his on field cheating.

And then there's the fact that Sammy Sosa is being punished for doing something that was legal in his home country (and still is) and that several players are being judged on suspicion without a whiff of evidence other than they were gym rats in the 90s/2000s.    It's bullshiat.
 
2013-01-10 12:23:29 PM

zarberg: There are no Piazza PED links. None. Zero. It's all baseball writer speculation, and we all know what unbiased folks most baseball writers are.


BACNE

Nabb1: A career .305 hitter who won two batting titles and had a fielding percentage of .976 wouldn't have started in right field for most of his career? And he is the all time leader in RBIs.


Hitting .305 and hitting RBI both have a little something to do with hitting HRs. Just a smidge.

(Also, everything you just said about fielding percentage is incredibly messed up. I have to run to class, but you might want to recheck that, then compare it to the league average, then realize that f% is a terrible stat)

BTW, McGwire has a higher OPS+ than Aaron. Higher than Hank Greenberg, too.
 
2013-01-10 12:23:46 PM

DeWayne Mann: Similarly, take away Hank Aaron's gaudy HR numbers, and he wouldn't have been a starting RF for most of his career.


assets.espn.go.com

Disagrees.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:30 PM

IAmRight: Also, steroids were likely a part of the game like greenies were a part of the game like rule changes in the 1920s to increase offense were a part of the game. Let's not act as though MLB didn't have incentive in 1995 to maybe intentionally look the other way if not directly provide steroids to players and make it clear that there would be no repercussions for use.


...wasn't 1995 the year Maddux and Glavine cut the "Chicks dig the long ball" ad?
 
2013-01-10 12:26:45 PM

DeWayne Mann: BTW, McGwire has a higher OPS+ than Aaron. Higher than Hank Greenberg, too.


Okay, but I still don't think McGwire warrants mention in the same sentence as Aaron and Greenberg.

IlGreven: IAmRight: Also, steroids were likely a part of the game like greenies were a part of the game like rule changes in the 1920s to increase offense were a part of the game. Let's not act as though MLB didn't have incentive in 1995 to maybe intentionally look the other way if not directly provide steroids to players and make it clear that there would be no repercussions for use.

...wasn't 1995 the year Maddux and Glavine cut the "Chicks dig the long ball" ad?


No, that was 1999 after McGwire broke Maris's record.  And if you want to talk about two guys who clearly weren't juicing, just get a look at them in that commercial with their shirts off.
 
2013-01-10 12:27:21 PM

dameron: Players, including at least one inner circle HOF member, were popping amphetamines since at least the 1950s.


Pud Galvin was taking drugs, including monkey testosterone, in the 1880s. He's in the Hall of Fame.
 
2013-01-10 12:27:37 PM

IAmRight: Nabb1: Blame Don Fehr and Bud Selig for creating the steroid era

Why would I blame them? Baseball was actually entertaining for a little while there.


Alienating people who can't appreciate anything about the game other than home runs is not, in my opinion, a bad thing.
 
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