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(Huffington Post)   Article begs this question: How does one "drop out of the labor market"? Is that a new 21st century euphemism for suicide?   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 65
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1463 clicks; posted to Business » on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 11:22:36 AM
That's not begging the question.
 
2013-01-10 11:23:35 AM
File for SSI or SSDI, buy your tins of cat food with your $500/month, and live with parents/children.

That, or get arrested and incarcerated and get your roof and 3 squares and $0.15/hr provided for you. Watch your cornhole though.
 
2013-01-10 11:40:56 AM
You take an under-the-table job for cash.

In essence you steal a job from an illegal immigrant.
 
2013-01-10 11:41:55 AM
I want a job, I just don't want to do anything
 
2013-01-10 11:49:48 AM
Most people drop out of the labor market by retiring, going back to school for additional education, or opting to take care of children or family members.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:47 AM
This country is so freaking screwed up. Lots of unemployed people but you can't hire them cheaply, legally because you'd have to cover health insurance and injury risk.

My house has a laundry list of handyman fixes that need doing, but I can't get someone in to fix even the smallest thing for less than $300. Labor to replace my front door comes in at $1500 - $2000. It's a half-day job for two guys, and only one of them needs to know what he's doing. Windows, siding, gutters, drainage ditches, light fixtures, some drywall repair, basic stuff that most people can figure out with a bit of trial and error, but I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement.

We need NHS in this country.
 
2013-01-10 11:53:42 AM
Umm...retirement?

Millions of Boomers are hitting retirement age every year now. It's no mystery why the labor participation rate is shrinking.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:42 PM
www.qwantz.com
 
2013-01-10 12:51:19 PM
Could you imagine if someone actually shook a tin cup and begged for questions?  That would be crazy.  You could throw a slip of paper in the cup that said "Why are you doing this?" and they would say "Thank you."
 
2013-01-10 12:56:30 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement


You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.
 
2013-01-10 01:00:18 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: This country is so freaking screwed up. Lots of unemployed people but you can't hire them cheaply, legally because you'd have to cover health insurance and injury risk.

My house has a laundry list of handyman fixes that need doing, but I can't get someone in to fix even the smallest thing for less than $300. Labor to replace my front door comes in at $1500 - $2000. It's a half-day job for two guys, and only one of them needs to know what he's doing. Windows, siding, gutters, drainage ditches, light fixtures, some drywall repair, basic stuff that most people can figure out with a bit of trial and error, but I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement.

We need NHS in this country.


You've never heard of craigslist have you? So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance? Wow that's news to me. You can get someone to do a front door for about $200 and it does not take 2 people half a day to do it. It would take 2 people, you plus the handy man roughly 2 hours max to do it and that's with you dragging your feet.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:54 PM

BKITU: Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement

You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.


you could also probably just have them sign a standard assumption of risk waiver. or i guess you could just  cower in fear of ever allowing someone to step foot on your property.
 
2013-01-10 01:08:52 PM

TNel: So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance?


Yes, you do. Whether they use your money to pay for the health insurance is not your concern. Ultimately the customer pays for absolutely everything. Don't let any boss tell you that he has to pay for it himself. He doesn't.
 
2013-01-10 01:25:14 PM
featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com
 
2013-01-10 01:40:04 PM

jaylectricity: TNel: So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance?

Yes, you do. Whether they use your money to pay for the health insurance is not your concern. Ultimately the customer pays for absolutely everything. Don't let any boss tell you that he has to pay for it himself. He doesn't.


If you don't directly pay it you are not paying it. That's like saying my work pays for my condoms. Yes indirectly they do but they do not directly pay for it. Now we are getting into semantics and let's just leave it as if the bill you get does not list it other than "labor" then you are paying for "labor" not insurance.
 
2013-01-10 01:41:08 PM
Starving oneself to death through lack of money is one method of suicide that no-one will try to prevent.
 
2013-01-10 01:45:05 PM
I think it means you take LSD and get on the bus.
 
2013-01-10 01:58:50 PM
you stop looking for work.
 
2013-01-10 02:04:54 PM

BKITU: Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement

You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.


Actually that is news to me. I figured if I hired a contractor who turned out not to have his own insurance I was just hosed.
 
2013-01-10 02:08:51 PM

TNel: Linoleum_Blownapart: This country is so freaking screwed up. Lots of unemployed people but you can't hire them cheaply, legally because you'd have to cover health insurance and injury risk.

My house has a laundry list of handyman fixes that need doing, but I can't get someone in to fix even the smallest thing for less than $300. Labor to replace my front door comes in at $1500 - $2000. It's a half-day job for two guys, and only one of them needs to know what he's doing. Windows, siding, gutters, drainage ditches, light fixtures, some drywall repair, basic stuff that most people can figure out with a bit of trial and error, but I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement.

We need NHS in this country.

You've never heard of craigslist have you? So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance? Wow that's news to me. You can get someone to do a front door for about $200 and it does not take 2 people half a day to do it. It would take 2 people, you plus the handy man roughly 2 hours max to do it and that's with you dragging your feet.


My experience with low-bids from Craigslist is that the guys don't actually have licenses, or insurance, or a truck, or a team. Had a guy who did some concrete work for me who stopped spreading the wet concrete to defend his unemployment status on his cellphone.
 
2013-01-10 02:11:53 PM

thomps: BKITU: Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement

You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.

you could also probably just have them sign a standard assumption of risk waiver. or i guess you could just  cower in fear of ever allowing someone to step foot on your property.


Or I could choose between doing it myself or paying a real contracting company the price they need to charge to be profitable, and then moaning about it on the internet.

Not that your idea doesn't have merit.
 
2013-01-10 02:18:09 PM

TNel: jaylectricity: TNel: So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance?

Yes, you do. Whether they use your money to pay for the health insurance is not your concern. Ultimately the customer pays for absolutely everything. Don't let any boss tell you that he has to pay for it himself. He doesn't.

If you don't directly pay it you are not paying it. That's like saying my work pays for my condoms. Yes indirectly they do but they do not directly pay for it. Now we are getting into semantics and let's just leave it as if the bill you get does not list it other than "labor" then you are paying for "labor" not insurance.


If the customer does not buy what you're selling, then there is no money. Therefore the customer pays for everything.
 
2013-01-10 02:40:47 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I want a job, I just don't want to do anything


Oddly enough, I want to do things, but I don't want a job.
 
2013-01-10 02:48:25 PM

skinnycatullus: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I want a job, I just don't want to do anything

Oddly enough, I want to do things, but I don't want a job.


I don't want a job and I don't want to do anything.

/amidoingitright
 
2013-01-10 02:48:44 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: BKITU: Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement

You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.

Actually that is news to me. I figured if I hired a contractor who turned out not to have his own insurance I was just hosed.


Well, even if he does have his own insurance, his insurance may subrogate against your homeowner's company to get their money back, since you would still be liable for the injury on your property. But, like I said, that's the whole point of the Liability portion of your homeowner's policy -- to protect the insured against claims of liability that would threaten his financial security.

It even follows you everywhere. Imagine you're on vacation and just walking around downtown, and you see something really cool off in the distance. You start to point at it to show your family, but as you do, you end up jabbing someone in the eye really hard. The person requires surgery and treatment to regain their sight in the eye. Your homeowner's policy covers your liability for that, even though you're not at home. Same thing goes for someone else's property -- real and personal -- you may accidentally damage while just walking around somewhere.

Homeowner's policies are amazing things. Check with your agent. ;)
 
2013-01-10 03:07:19 PM

RexTalionis: Most people drop out of the labor market by retiring, going back to school for additional education, or opting to take care of children or family members.


Exactly.  What's the hard-on with every single able-bodied person being employed?
 
2013-01-10 03:08:55 PM

doglover: That's not begging the question.


But that just begs the question: What is "begging the question"?
 
2013-01-10 03:10:56 PM

jaylectricity: TNel: jaylectricity: TNel: So when you hire a contractor you now have to pay for their health insurance?

Yes, you do. Whether they use your money to pay for the health insurance is not your concern. Ultimately the customer pays for absolutely everything. Don't let any boss tell you that he has to pay for it himself. He doesn't.

If you don't directly pay it you are not paying it. That's like saying my work pays for my condoms. Yes indirectly they do but they do not directly pay for it. Now we are getting into semantics and let's just leave it as if the bill you get does not list it other than "labor" then you are paying for "labor" not insurance.

If the customer does not buy what you're selling, then there is no money. Therefore the customer pays for everything.



Which is why it is silly to tax corporations or corporate profits. They aren't going to pay those taxes, their customers will.
 
2013-01-10 03:13:27 PM

tricycleracer: RexTalionis: Most people drop out of the labor market by retiring, going back to school for additional education, or opting to take care of children or family members.

Exactly.  What's the hard-on with every single able-bodied person being employed?


If you don't create profit for your betters you have no value.
 
2013-01-10 03:15:14 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: You take an under-the-table job for cash.


One of my brothers has gone beyond this. When he lost his last job with a general contractor he started taking out ads in Craigslist to mow lawns, clear brush, clean gutters, paint, minor repairs...whatever, for $12/hr, time to be agreed up front. Cash on the barrelhead. He has quit advertising because he has to many clients he can work 7 days a week if he wants to. I can't do that with a mortgage, but he lives in a 32' travel trailer in a cheap RV park (where he mows the lawn twice a week for his space).
 
2013-01-10 03:23:22 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: This country is so freaking screwed up. Lots of unemployed people but you can't hire them cheaply, legally because you'd have to cover health insurance and injury risk.

My house has a laundry list of handyman fixes that need doing, but I can't get someone in to fix even the smallest thing for less than $300. Labor to replace my front door comes in at $1500 - $2000. It's a half-day job for two guys, and only one of them needs to know what he's doing. Windows, siding, gutters, drainage ditches, light fixtures, some drywall repair, basic stuff that most people can figure out with a bit of trial and error, but I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement.

We need NHS in this country.


Simple. Just hire a couple of guys out of the Home Depot parking lot, and if they fall off a ladder just threaten to call ICE on them.
 
2013-01-10 03:26:24 PM

Stone Meadow: One of my brothers has gone beyond this. When he lost his last job with a general contractor he started taking out ads in Craigslist to mow lawns, clear brush, clean gutters, paint, minor repairs...whatever, for $12/hr, time to be agreed up front. Cash on the barrelhead. He has quit advertising because he has to many clients he can work 7 days a week if he wants to. I can't do that with a mortgage, but he lives in a 32' travel trailer in a cheap RV park (where he mows the lawn twice a week for his space).


OMG commerce without the government's approval. Call the cops!
 
2013-01-10 03:29:27 PM

Stone Meadow: Linoleum_Blownapart: You take an under-the-table job for cash.

One of my brothers has gone beyond this. When he lost his last job with a general contractor he started taking out ads in Craigslist to mow lawns, clear brush, clean gutters, paint, minor repairs...whatever, for $12/hr, time to be agreed up front. Cash on the barrelhead. He has quit advertising because he has to many clients he can work 7 days a week if he wants to. I can't do that with a mortgage, but he lives in a 32' travel trailer in a cheap RV park (where he mows the lawn twice a week for his space).


What kind of mutant grass grows that fast?
 
2013-01-10 03:29:36 PM
The high level of unemployment still continues to be a problem. There is disagreement on whether or not it is significantly improving, but I think any reasonable person would say the current situation is still pretty poor. Perhaps this is a transition point in the way we do business.

Back when I was a fresh college graduate in the late 80s, I recall reading from several different prognosticators that a future trend to watch for was that less people would work as full-time employees. People would have skill sets that organizations would seek out, and when the work was done, they would drift to a new project with a different company. And unlike most temp agencies that specialize in fairly low level workers, this would become increasingly popular with all levels of the corporate hierarchy. It seems like this has been happening more and more over the last decade or so.

Maybe right now we're going through a transition period, and we'll soon see a sharp increase in the number of self-employed people advertising their skillsets on Linkedin, or some other websites. We'll never get away from having the majority of people seeking stable, full-time employment, but we may be seeing less and less of those people looking for those types traditional work arrangements.
 
2013-01-10 03:32:36 PM

MugzyBrown: Stone Meadow: One of my brothers has gone beyond this. When he lost his last job with a general contractor he started taking out ads in Craigslist to mow lawns, clear brush, clean gutters, paint, minor repairs...whatever, for $12/hr, time to be agreed up front. Cash on the barrelhead. He has quit advertising because he has to many clients he can work 7 days a week if he wants to. I can't do that with a mortgage, but he lives in a 32' travel trailer in a cheap RV park (where he mows the lawn twice a week for his space).

OMG commerce without the government's approval. Call the cops!


Also known as, tax evasion.
 
2013-01-10 03:37:10 PM

Doc Daneeka: Also known as, tax evasion.


It's quite a horror.

But if Keynesian economics has taugh us anything, this money he earns will multiply and accelerate through the economy.
 
2013-01-10 03:39:32 PM

Mad_Radhu: Simple. Just hire a couple of guys out of the Home Depot parking lot, and if they fall off a ladder just threaten to call ICE on them.


I realize you're probably being glib, but ICE will usually tell you they're too busy to investigate anything.
 
2013-01-10 03:40:29 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Stone Meadow: One of my brothers has gone beyond this. ...he mows the lawn twice a week for his space).

What kind of mutant grass grows that fast?


I dunno. Whatever kind of grass they plant in Washington...summer only, natch.
 
2013-01-10 04:16:00 PM
How does one "drop out of the labor market"?

They used to call these people unpublished novelists or screenwriters.
 
2013-01-10 04:17:09 PM

Atomic Spunk: The high level of unemployment still continues to be a problem. There is disagreement on whether or not it is significantly improving, but I think any reasonable person would say the current situation is still pretty poor. Perhaps this is a transition point in the way we do business.

Back when I was a fresh college graduate in the late 80s, I recall reading from several different prognosticators that a future trend to watch for was that less people would work as full-time employees. People would have skill sets that organizations would seek out, and when the work was done, they would drift to a new project with a different company. And unlike most temp agencies that specialize in fairly low level workers, this would become increasingly popular with all levels of the corporate hierarchy. It seems like this has been happening more and more over the last decade or so.

Maybe right now we're going through a transition period, and we'll soon see a sharp increase in the number of self-employed people advertising their skillsets on Linkedin, or some other websites. We'll never get away from having the majority of people seeking stable, full-time employment, but we may be seeing less and less of those people looking for those types traditional work arrangements.


sounds like a future of decreasing home ownership and declining birthrates. Neither of these are good, especially the latter. Retirement planning also reaches a nightmare scenario.
 
2013-01-10 04:20:05 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: ***snip***


Not that your initial question hasn't been well responded to, but for my 2 cents: Somebody has to pay for risk and the fallout of an accident. Because humans are bad at assessing risk to themselves objectively, the government decided it would be a good idea to require insurance as part of the ability to do business as a contractor. Some people are going to circumvent this requirement and charge less, but they are going to be less reputable than someone with the proper insurances and credentials, and you may find yourself in a bad spot later when it turns out their work was as dodgy as their tax return. That is not to say there are not perfectly skilled people that are just trying to cut expenses, but as you said, then you are taking on the risk of them getting hurt, which may still cause you (or your insurance company) a hardship as was mentioned upthread.

Nadie_AZ: skinnycatullus: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I want a job, I just don't want to do anything

Oddly enough, I want to do things, but I don't want a job.

I don't want a job and I don't want to do anything.

/amidoingitright


I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that.

//doneright


Atomic Spunk: ***snip***


The difficulty there is the price of health insurance and health care, and those being tied to employment. Once that shift is made, what you suggests becomes a much more viable option than it already is.
 
2013-01-10 04:38:22 PM
So, people are just deciding they don't need work and are not looking for employment? I'll just assume they won the lottery, then.
 
2013-01-10 04:43:11 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I want a job, I just don't want to do anything


Agreed. My only career goal is to retire.
 
2013-01-10 05:02:25 PM

roc6783: I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that.


I'm a storyteller. Even so, people still sometimes complain that I've made something up, because that's not the way the story is supposed to go. Fun career, not a huge moneymaker, but hey, no boss, no overhead, no guilt.

//must be how George Lucas feels
 
2013-01-10 05:26:04 PM

doglover: That's not begging the question.


This. So. Much.

People, "begging the question" does not mean "raising the question", godammit. People use the phrase to sound eloquent, and end up just looking stupid by completely misusing it.
 
2013-01-10 05:58:41 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: BKITU: Linoleum_Blownapart: I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement

You don't have homeowner's insurance? Stuff like that is the whole point of the "liability" portion of the policy.

Actually that is news to me. I figured if I hired a contractor who turned out not to have his own insurance I was just hosed.


How the hell do you not check to see if a contractor is bonded and insured beforehand?
 
2013-01-10 06:04:14 PM
'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.
 
2013-01-10 06:13:38 PM
I know a goodly number of silicon valley types who got laid off in their late 40s and up. As a result, there were a few marriages among long-term cohabitants in order for the unemployed person to secure health insurance. Other folks had spouses who were working. Some had spouses lose their jobs, too. They packed up and moved to Oregon and used the profits from selling their houses to bridge the years to Social Security. Some of the layoffs were guys whose social and hygiene skils are sub par. A couple of them moved out of state and wound up committing suicide. Their jobs were what held them together. A few went into a different field entirely. (Two nurses, two lawyers and an all-purpose management consultant.)

Most of the people who were laid off, interestingly, were the ones who would delightedly tell me of various verbal battles they had with The Man or their co-workers. They never understand why they keep getting "laid off", but it's not my job to tell them they're incredibly abrasive.
 
2013-01-10 07:54:27 PM

Nadie_AZ: skinnycatullus: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I want a job, I just don't want to do anything

Oddly enough, I want to do things, but I don't want a job.

I don't want a job and I don't want to do anything.

/amidoingitright


Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want
Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do

/TMBG
 
2013-01-10 09:33:11 PM

Linoleum_Blownapart: This country is so freaking screwed up. Lots of unemployed people but you can't hire them cheaply, legally because you'd have to cover health insurance and injury risk.

My house has a laundry list of handyman fixes that need doing, but I can't get someone in to fix even the smallest thing for less than $300. Labor to replace my front door comes in at $1500 - $2000. It's a half-day job for two guys, and only one of them needs to know what he's doing. Windows, siding, gutters, drainage ditches, light fixtures, some drywall repair, basic stuff that most people can figure out with a bit of trial and error, but I can't risk having someone fall off a ladder because the resulting medical expenses could cost me my house, my kids college fund, and my retirement.

We need NHS in this country.


Or you could fix it yourself..

/kidding
 
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