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(The Atlantic)   "The world's biggest single problem is the failure of people or groups to look at things from the point of view of other people or groups"   (theatlantic.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Matt Yglesias, how to live, credit history, losers  
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932 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Jan 2013 at 9:07 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 07:17:05 AM  
Other people do need to be more more aware of my point of view.
 
2013-01-10 07:37:37 AM  

flucto: Other people do need to be more more aware of my point of view.


Why should they?  You haven't thought about Subby's point of view.
 
2013-01-10 07:43:22 AM  
That was a lot of words to pitch a book on Buddhism.
 
2013-01-10 08:14:23 AM  
Ric Romero writes for the Atlantic now?
 
2013-01-10 08:21:18 AM  
There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.
 
2013-01-10 08:23:11 AM  
I have a point and that's why I wear a hat...
 
2013-01-10 09:07:51 AM  
All opinions are valid, so vote Republican.
 
2013-01-10 09:08:37 AM  
Obvious tag is obvious
 
2013-01-10 09:08:54 AM  
While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.
 
2013-01-10 09:11:30 AM  
I attempt to consider other viewpoints, as long as they are correct.
 
2013-01-10 09:11:33 AM  

Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.


The idea is to not immediately assume your "opponents" are worthy of the same consideration as "Nazis."
 
2013-01-10 09:12:15 AM  
I seem to recall a War On Empathy started by the usual suspects.
 
2013-01-10 09:12:59 AM  
Some people think the poor are people. I happen to think they are simply meat incubators waiting to be harvested. All opinions are valid
 
2013-01-10 09:16:39 AM  
imageshack.us
 
2013-01-10 09:16:54 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Some people think the poor are people. I happen to think they are simply meat incubators waiting to be harvested. All opinions are valid


I'm sure CNN will give you equal time for this.
 
2013-01-10 09:17:10 AM  
You stare into the abyss long enough, it stares back at you.
 
2013-01-10 09:23:07 AM  
The second problem is how easily so many denigrate the very idea of the first.
 
2013-01-10 09:23:29 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Some people think the poor are people. I happen to think they are simply meat incubators waiting to be harvested. All opinions are valid


So... vote Republican?
 
2013-01-10 09:23:47 AM  

Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.


Sympathizing? No. Understanding the psychology behind Hitler's massive propaganda victories and the self-interest of Germans who were reclaiming their pride in the only way available to them at the time? Very productive indeed. I think we did a lot of this as the war was winding down, and it helped speed reconstruction and de-Nazification.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-10 09:25:27 AM  

LasersHurt: Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.

The idea is to not immediately assume your "opponents" are worthy of the same consideration as "Nazis."


Plus there's the fact that he's not advocating sympathy or even empathy with the Other--just an honest attempt to see the world from their viewpoint. Some of my dumber students fall into the trap of thinking that seeing the world from another viewpoint means they have to embrace and endorse that viewpoint. I'm not allowed to smack them, but I am allowed to shame them, so I do.

What he describes as a root problem is actually a symptom of another, more basic problem--lots of people don't like to have their preconceptions challenged. Laziness? Pride? Fear of the unknown? Who knows. Honestly trying to see the world from another point of view is inherently threatening to your own notions of how the world works, at least for people who don't think that their understanding of the world has room for improvement.
 
2013-01-10 09:27:10 AM  

LasersHurt: Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.

The idea is to not immediately assume your "opponents" are worthy of the same consideration as "Nazis."


I don't know if you've ever been around for a Freeper thread, but it's not a bad stance to take.
 
2013-01-10 09:31:59 AM  

Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.


No, but they still had to sign the treaties that ended WWII. Even though the negotiations went something like: "You sign your names here, and we stop killing you there. Sound good?", we didn't make it our mission to kill every last one of them. We rightly abhor their views and their methods, but we should not abhor them as people.

In other words, we didn't (and shouldn't) dehumanize Nazis. We shouldn't be electing them, or letting them work at synagogue daycare centers, but we have a whole lot of people who have done a things whole lot worse than your standard-issue Nazi.
 
2013-01-10 09:32:43 AM  

Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.


I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.
 
2013-01-10 09:36:14 AM  
If your point of view is stupid, I'm under no obligation to respect it just because it's your point of view.

Seems to me the world's biggest problem is people's lack of willingness to examine their OWN points of view.

So, you know, f*ck off.
 
2013-01-10 09:37:02 AM  

liam76: Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.

I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.


I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.
 
2013-01-10 09:37:51 AM  
You should never judge a group of people until you get to know them.  That's what they do in Russia.
 
2013-01-10 09:38:49 AM  
the worlds biggest 2 problems are theft of thought or concience, and coercion. These will always trump any other problems.
 
2013-01-10 09:41:06 AM  

mrshowrules: You should never judge a group of people until you get to know them.  That's what they do in Russia.


Hehe.
 
2013-01-10 09:42:01 AM  

Cythraul: I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.


Of what difference is it to you how many gods I believe in, or what they look like, or what's on their character sheets? If I'm not using it to make or change secular law, who cares?

// then you're no more or less worried about the "devoutly religious" than you are of the atheist libertarians at Reason
// not religious, sees no harm in religion per se
 
2013-01-10 09:45:04 AM  

Cythraul: liam76: Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.

I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.

I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.


So you are changing from "devoutly religious" to "christians"?
 
2013-01-10 09:47:08 AM  
If someone's viewpoints are not based in reason and logic, and they view any attempts to sway their position as a "test" that they must "resist", the best one can hope to do is understand their position, not from a position of sympathy, but more from a position that Sun Tsu would call "understanding your opponent".
 
2013-01-10 09:48:11 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Cythraul: I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.

Of what difference is it to you how many gods I believe in, or what they look like, or what's on their character sheets? If I'm not using it to make or change secular law, who cares?

// then you're no more or less worried about the "devoutly religious" than you are of the atheist libertarians at Reason
// not religious, sees no harm in religion per se


Harm? Changing laws?  The headline referred only to the ability to look at things from the point of view from another group of people.  I simply mentioned how this is difficult for me to do with religious folks since generally what they believe in seems so fantastical that it's absurd.

Leave out all the philosophical stuff such as the 'golden rule,' and what not.  I'm talking about stuff like this:

d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net
 
2013-01-10 09:48:50 AM  

liam76: Cythraul: liam76: Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.

I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.

I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.

So you are changing from "devoutly religious" to "christians"?


You're the one that brought up Christians.
 
2013-01-10 09:49:20 AM  

Cythraul: liam76: Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.

I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.

I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.


The exact stories don't matter.  It's about accepting something without thinking about it, so that you'll feel good about the world and be okay with dying some day.  It's like Santa Claus for adults who are scared of the universe and death.
 
2013-01-10 09:53:33 AM  

Cythraul: Dr Dreidel: Cythraul: I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.

Of what difference is it to you how many gods I believe in, or what they look like, or what's on their character sheets? If I'm not using it to make or change secular law, who cares?

// then you're no more or less worried about the "devoutly religious" than you are of the atheist libertarians at Reason
// not religious, sees no harm in religion per se

Harm? Changing laws?  The headline referred only to the ability to look at things from the point of view from another group of people.  I simply mentioned how this is difficult for me to do with religious folks since generally what they believe in seems so fantastical that it's absurd.

Leave out all the philosophical stuff such as the 'golden rule,' and what not.  I'm talking about stuff like this:

[d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net image 499x423]


You're talking to someone whose name is Dr. Dreidel. I don't think your complaining about Jesus is falling on the ears you want it to fall on.
 
2013-01-10 09:58:21 AM  

Cythraul: Harm? Changing laws? The headline referred only to the ability to look at things from the point of view from another group of people. I simply mentioned how this is difficult for me to do with religious folks since generally what they believe in seems so fantastical that it's absurd.

Leave out all the philosophical stuff such as the 'golden rule,' and what not.


Oh. You just don't understand why someone would believe that. That's totally different - you can recognize what those beliefs are, and in so doing, divine (ha!) some of the motivations they have for doing things.

E.G.: On a random Wednesday, I notice people walking around with black smudges on their foreheads. Poking fun at all the people who suddenly forgot to wash their T-zones, even after someone points out that it's the first day of Lent, likely shows an inability to look at things from their point of view.

I can tell you why my observances are as they are. If you still can't see beyond the literal after that explanation, THAT's what TFA is talking about. To put yourself in someone else's shoes not to see if you'll make the same choices they do/would/have, but just to see the world through their eyes.
 
2013-01-10 09:58:29 AM  

Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.


To me, the ability -- and willingness -- to look at things from the other person's point of view is the very essence of "liberalism." I'm a strong atheist, but I try not to push it on people. If the fundamentalists would likewise keep their beliefs to themselves, I would have no problem with them. Live and let live. But, unfortunately, part of their belief system is the adjuration to cram their nonsense down the throats of the rest of the world, even by legislation -- and THAT'S where I part company with them. I despise "I know better than you based on no evidence whatever" missionaries of any stripe.
 
2013-01-10 10:00:18 AM  
I realized a long time ago my biggest problem is I think everyone thinks like me.
 
2013-01-10 10:00:24 AM  

sprawl15: You're talking to someone whose name is Dr. Dreidel. I don't think your complaining about Jesus is falling on the ears you want it to fall on.


Heh. I grew up religious, am no longer. I have no ill will toward any religion or belief, only the people who twist it for their own ends.

// or when those beliefs require more of me than treating you with human dignity/respect
 
2013-01-10 10:00:41 AM  
It's hard because I'm not actually scared of very much.
 
2013-01-10 10:01:40 AM  

LasersHurt: Citrate1007: While I agree, some people's point of view is just plain farked. I don't think that sympathizing with the Nazi's would have resolved the issue.

The idea is to not immediately assume your "opponents" are worthy of the same consideration as "Nazis."



I think you missed his point. It isn't that POV's which you don't agree with are like Nazi's.... it's that not all points of view are equally valid. He used the Nazis as an example because understanding their POV doesn't make them any less horrible.
 
2013-01-10 10:03:24 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Cythraul: Harm? Changing laws? The headline referred only to the ability to look at things from the point of view from another group of people. I simply mentioned how this is difficult for me to do with religious folks since generally what they believe in seems so fantastical that it's absurd.

Leave out all the philosophical stuff such as the 'golden rule,' and what not.

Oh. You just don't understand why someone would believe that. That's totally different - you can recognize what those beliefs are, and in so doing, divine (ha!) some of the motivations they have for doing things.

E.G.: On a random Wednesday, I notice people walking around with black smudges on their foreheads. Poking fun at all the people who suddenly forgot to wash their T-zones, even after someone points out that it's the first day of Lent, likely shows an inability to look at things from their point of view.

I can tell you why my observances are as they are. If you still can't see beyond the literal after that explanation, THAT's what TFA is talking about. To put yourself in someone else's shoes not to see if you'll make the same choices they do/would/have, but just to see the world through their eyes.


Sorry, I'm guilty of not actually reading the article. :/
 
2013-01-10 10:05:38 AM  

Cythraul: liam76: Cythraul: liam76: Cythraul: There are other points of view that no matter how hard I try, I simply can't place myself within that mindset.  The devoutly religious, for example.  I just can't dive that deep into delusion.

I find it hard to believe you can't understand the point of view of a devout christian who thinks his goal in life is to "do unto others".

I do find it pretty easy to believe you are lumping all devoutly religious people together out of ignorance or an attempt to seem better than them.

I was thinking more in the belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie.

So you are changing from "devoutly religious" to "christians"?

You're the one that brought up Christians.


Yes, but you didn't say "devout christians". Your problem, as you described it, was with the central tenet of christianity, not with the practices of the "devoutly religious" or "devoutly religious" christians, but christians in general.

Talking burning bushes, Naoh's Arc, reincarnation etc are all just outrageous. If your problem is with them then your problem isn't with "decoutly religious" it is with peopel who believe in religion at all.

/he was a lich not a zombie
 
2013-01-10 10:07:47 AM  

Cythraul: Sorry, I'm guilty of not actually reading the article.


In MY Fark?

// unpossible
// watch out for man-eating centipedes
 
2013-01-10 10:14:32 AM  
Why should they, it's much more fun to create straw men to then beat with a dead horse.
 
2013-01-10 10:15:33 AM  
"The world's biggest single problem is the failure of people or groups to look at things from the point of view of other people or groups"

Also, the internet's.
 
2013-01-10 10:28:48 AM  
Capitalism? ...no?
 
2013-01-10 10:30:30 AM  
Actually, I believe the biggest single problem is the failure of people or groups to look at a person or group and say, "I'm sorry, but that idea is complete and utter shiat," out of fear that the lowest common denominator in the masses will flock to said bad idea.
 
2013-01-10 10:34:28 AM  

Pocket Ninja: That was a lot of words to pitch a book on Buddhism.


Came here to say this. Rambling on about your feelings regarding the minutiae of your work is not an enjoyable read.
 
2013-01-10 10:42:30 AM  

EyeballKid: Actually, I believe the biggest single problem is the failure of people or groups to look at a person or group and say, "I'm sorry, but that idea is complete and utter shiat,"


You may be onto something.  A lot of ridiculousness gets validation because the media is so afraid of bias accusations...they often will present "both sides of the debate" on issues where there isn't, nor should be, any debate whatsoever.

And/or where people give undue deference to ideas because they came from a source that nobody wants to denigrate (see, e.g., religious doctrine).
 
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