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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 125
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7200 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-10 09:40:00 AM
9 votes:

Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.


Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.
2013-01-10 08:17:51 AM
8 votes:
Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
2013-01-10 11:24:53 AM
7 votes:

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.
2013-01-10 11:29:33 AM
6 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.
2013-01-10 12:12:05 PM
5 votes:
At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?

I mean, there's a real difference between telling some goons that you'll kick their ass if they pick on your little brother, and sitting there silently while he then goes about *picking* fights and generally acting like a raging asshole, just to see how far he can push people with his big brother backing him up.

Let's remember that neither Hagel, nor Obama before him, dared say *anything* remotely un-supportive of Israel. They probably should have, but never did, so much as say "if you *pick the fight* yourself, you can fight it yourself." They never even suggested that maybe we should tell our little brother to dial it down. To stop screwing with people we both promised to not provoke.

No, they are being politically attacked for so much as suggesting that it is *possible* for our little brother to use our support incorrectly. That it's *possible* for him to be in the wrong. That it's *possible* for him to get us into fights that no-one wants or needs and that will just ensure more trouble down the line. Not that they're on that path. Not that we're at that point. Just that it's *possible*.

And they're being shouted down and bullied away from raising the possibility, for suggesting that we need to consider our support and interactions in the context of that possibility, with an argument tantamount to "why do you *hate* your little brother?"
2013-01-10 11:24:19 AM
5 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-01-10 11:21:01 AM
5 votes:
I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.
2013-01-10 11:20:22 AM
4 votes:
I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.
2013-01-10 11:18:58 AM
4 votes:

iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?


I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.
2013-01-10 11:14:40 AM
4 votes:
You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.
2013-01-10 11:13:29 AM
4 votes:
Who cares. Once the Baby Boomer generation is dead the Israel lobby will be powerless.
2013-01-10 11:12:33 AM
4 votes:

give me doughnuts: Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


So there are US presidential appointees getting put through the wringer because theyre not sufficiently pro-Dutch, pro-Japanese, or pro-German enough?

Way to miss the point.
2013-01-10 10:25:15 AM
4 votes:

Somacandra: Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

[i.imgur.com image 250x200]


/it begins


Yeah. If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters out of Gaza and the West Bank, Israel could finally stabilize its borders.
2013-01-10 10:10:41 AM
4 votes:

Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

i.imgur.com


/it begins
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM
3 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.
2013-01-10 12:04:23 PM
3 votes:

Vectron: Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd? Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


If you're seriously telling me that the same group that counts Eric Cantor and George Soros, Noam Chomsky and Henry Kissinger, Jon Stewart and Jonah Goldberg as members can do ANYTHING without collapsing into a pile of dysfunction, I suspect you may not have thought things through. Even if we limited it only to those Jews sitting on boards, you'd have as hard a time convincing them to do anything as a group that you'd have with convincing the rest of them.

And no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.

// we're not
// and we're not any more or less cohesive, as an international group, than Muslims or white people
2013-01-10 12:04:16 PM
3 votes:
The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.
2013-01-10 11:50:24 AM
3 votes:

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


It's not that (well, I don't doubt that some people hold this view); here are the more rational concerns:

-Israel holds disproportional lobbying influence for a foreign nation, even as an ally
-Israel is a "problem ally" in that US support for Israel is a diplomatic thorn for many other nations in the region, and (unfairly or not) there is a perception that the US gives tacit approval for controversial Israeli actions (like aggressive expansion)
2013-01-10 11:47:38 AM
3 votes:
Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com
2013-01-10 11:45:05 AM
3 votes:
i have a problem with any theocracy - be it israel, iran, saudi arabia or the republican vision for the united states.
2013-01-10 11:39:54 AM
3 votes:
It's because they need the temple to be re-built in Jerusalem before Jesus can come back.

I swear to God I think this is the underlying reason.
2013-01-10 11:36:26 AM
3 votes:
'Quote For The Day' from Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada ? oh man. This is brilliant. They should be asking about "the Arab obsession with Israel and Arabs' incessant blaming of the Jews for everything that's wrong in their world".
2013-01-10 11:19:45 AM
3 votes:
Charges of antisemitism is the "playing the race card" of the right.
2013-01-10 09:22:30 AM
3 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


and here we go...
2013-01-10 08:29:06 AM
3 votes:
no. farking. shiat.
2013-01-10 05:27:43 PM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: It's really weird when, after days (and weeks, if memory serves) of arguing, your opponent posts something that so closely follows my own views.


Well, your first mistake is in thinking that I'm your opponent. Your second mistake is assuming that all of my posts are serious. But it's also true that some of my views have evolved in the last few months. Anyhow, here's a TL;DR for you:

Here are some things that I have always believed

Israel is the subject of an over-abundance of criticism in the western media. Israel most certainly takes actions that most residents of modern western liberal democracies would find immoral. But for every pundit kvetching about something Israel has done, I can find a dozen atrocities happening in the world that nobody cares about at all. If some nineteen year old Israeli soldier makes a bad judgement call and handcuffs a rock-throwing Palestinian teenager across the windshield of a bulldozer, it's the worse thing that ever happened in the history of the world. But if the Syrian government, at the highest level, makes the decision to systematically murder 1,500 protesters in an overnight massacre, the world yawns and turns to the sports page.

But I also believe some of the criticism of Israel is deserved. Israel is ostensibly a western liberal democracy, and it should be held to the standards of behavior for a western liberal democracy. When they fail to achieve those standards, the western media should call them on it. I honestly believe that Israel should be held to a higher standard than Syria, because I believe that Israel has earned the privilege of being held to that standard. Nobody has any illusions about what Syria is, and nothing anyone says is going to change Bashar al-Assad's behavior regardless.

Here are some things I have come to believe in the last few months

I've begun to to rethink my apologies for the excessive criticism of Israel by the western media.

My belief that we should expect better behavior from Israel than from its Arab neighbords is, quite frankly, racist. Bashar al-Assad doesn't get a free pass to murder thousands of people because he happens to live in a backwards little autocratic regime. If anything, he deserves more criticism, because he's actually responsible for keeping Syria a backwards little autocratic regime in the first place. Similarly, Hamas doesn't get a free pass to launch katyusha rockets toward Israel just because they're such crappy stupid rockets. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, then they should understand that they can't allow their local rednecks to create international incidents by continuously flinging plumbing supplies filled with sugar and fertilizer across the border. Either arrest and jail the people who are responsible for doing that crap, or don't be surprised when Israel crosses the border and does it for you.

I'm afraid my mind was infected with the prevalent American attitude that most Arabs aren't as culturally advanced as we are, and therefore shouldn't be held to the same standards of behavior that the rest of us are held to. That attitude is, frankly, complete bullshiat. Arabs aren't little children that deserve special coddling and protection. The idea that they're just not ready for universal human rights is just plain wrong. And until Arabs begin to respect a couple of western cultural norms, we're going to continue to have problems. And, two of the big western cultural norms that I want Arabs to respect are: (1) don't kill people for expressing their right to protest, and (2) don't fling plumbing supplies across international borders.

The other reason that I've been rethinking my acceptance of the excessive criticism of Israel by western media is right here on fark. Holy cow, real live honest-to-god anti-semites actually exist. These people aren't just imaginary boogey men; these guys are real, and the real do have some sort of hard-on for Jews. Up until recently, when folks like Sarah Palin make thinly coded anti-semitic comments like blaming our problems on the "west coast media elite and east coast bankers", I just scratched my head and wondered who she imagined she was talking to. Does she have a radio transmitter that broadcasts back to all of her fans in the 1950's or something? But I'm beginning to realize that anti-semitism is an actual real thing, and not more than a little of the anti-israeli sentiment in the media really is just poorly disguised anti-semitism.

but less seriously, and back the to reason that I ever come on fark

if I remember the gist of our conversations in the past, let me veer off into left field and say that I still believe Iron Dome is a political propaganda tool, not a military tool. Building a multi-million dollar toy to knock some plumbing supplies around a bit in the sky before they fall to the ground is really neat. I'm sure it gives the Israeli people a good reason to be happy, and it gives Hamas a good reason to be sad. But any safety it supplies is, at best, due to the indirect effect of discouraging Hamas from throwing more of their crappy rockets your way. But the other danger is now Hamas is going to work harder to get more of the less-crappy rockets from Iran, and sadly those rockets are both much harder for Iron Dome to stop and also have the potential to do serious, targeted damage. I honestly and sincerely hope that I'm wrong about this.
2013-01-10 03:03:44 PM
2 votes:

Xcott: heap: Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?

does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?

Yes, it does.

That's why holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers often try to conceal their group affiliation when spreading their propaganda---because they know that if you expose them, they will be ignored or dismissed as sleazy crackpots.

What you deride as "labeling" really amounts to informing the public that someone has a certain belief system that is known to be less credible. It's actually very useful to know that, and it's quite rational to qualify what they say based on that knowledge.


It also is a tempting hammer to simply smash at any disagreement with. Why engage when you can say "Racist!" and be done?

Well because 30 years on people are tired of your accusations and something that should be a career ending condemnation is just a partisan talking point.
2013-01-10 02:47:08 PM
2 votes:

give me doughnuts: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.

Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


So we need to support Israel because they help us against people who hate us because we support Israel?
2013-01-10 02:11:51 PM
2 votes:

Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?


How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?
2013-01-10 01:50:31 PM
2 votes:
Be it the far left or the far right both have reasons to throw money at Israel that are not in American interests. We don't have to support Greece to prove we don't hate Greek people. Israel has enough nukes to defend itself.
2013-01-10 01:43:50 PM
2 votes:

BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.


This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.
2013-01-10 01:37:39 PM
2 votes:
USS Liberty
Stolen nuclear materials and information
Iran-Contra
\list continues
\\new fark handle suggestion: Balfour Declination? :)
2013-01-10 01:36:43 PM
2 votes:

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Yup... Shakespeare totally made up the idea of a Jewish Usurer taking pounds of flesh from good Christians on his own. That's why the play was so popular... nobody understood it. -_-

Alternatively, during the Crusades, there was a need to loan and transfer money from party to party. As there was a Christian moratorium on charging interest, this was clearly a difficulty to be overcome. Fortunately, the Jews at the time were reading Deuteronomy a little differently and didn't consider gentiles to be "their brothers" and therefore they weren't beholden to such prohibitions.

For nearly 200 years, bankers in Europe were almost universally Jewish. Christians thought this was Usury and kind of reluctantly dealt with these bankers. This was the first socio-economic friction between Jews and Christians. Before that it was all theological, but banking brought it into the real. Centuries of friction led the Jews to become increasingly insular and reluctant to assimilate or be assimilated. Obviously, the source of their social power became the new primary source of their status as outcasts, but the maintenance of this social power was more important, at that time, than being friends with the gentiles. Plus, as an added bonus, the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

Heck, even the notion of Gentiles denotes a sort of self-segregation. "We are the Jews" The only other kind of people in the world are Non-Jews."

The Jews have a TREMENDOUS amount of history. And while not all of it is positive the vast majority is at least neutral. The problem is that you go traipsing down memory lane with Judaism and you can't help but stumble on some pitfalls that help inform the current situation... and then realize that those pitfalls are informed by previous pitfalls... stretching back like 1500 years.

/Whose "fault" was WWI? is a less complicated question than "whose fault is Palestine"
2013-01-10 12:43:36 PM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?

Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win


That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.
2013-01-10 12:33:37 PM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


It's a very understandable impulse, but when you look at the overall history of the world there are groups that have suffered similarly (the Hmong being a good example) you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history
2013-01-10 12:24:29 PM
2 votes:
OK, bottom-line it for me, folks.

How do we get to the point where all of us can just stop hearing about and giving a rat's ass about this tiny, obnoxious nation half a world away? Just tell me what it takes, because I've had enough of this shiat.

Spell it out for me. Because I am being asked to care about this shiat waaaaaaaaayy too often now. And I need it to stop.
2013-01-10 12:21:38 PM
2 votes:
We should have given them Winnipeg instead of Palestine. Seriously, no one in Canada or anywhere else would miss Winnipeg, much less fight over it.
2013-01-10 12:18:56 PM
2 votes:

Vectron: Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.


#1 That statement is not mutually exclusive with what you said that Jewish Liberals believe
#2 You don't know that anyone here is a "Jewish Liberal" from anything they say even on their account profile


#3 The Elders of Zion are putting you on a list somewhere.
2013-01-10 12:18:18 PM
2 votes:

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


" I listened to the comments from Mr. Abrams with an increasing sense of incredulity. As he attacked Mr. Hagel for being soft on Iran, I could not help but remember that Mr. Abrams himself conspired with others in the Reagan administration to sell US missiles secretly to Iran, in violation of US law."
2013-01-10 12:14:18 PM
2 votes:

Diogenes: But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation


How are we ready to sacrifice sovereignty for Israel?

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Yeah what happened in WWII wasn't assimilation, but thanks for playing.

/looking forward to your derp about it being their fault.
2013-01-10 12:07:35 PM
2 votes:
fark Israel. And fark the Palestinians too. Let the desert savages slaughter each other, they don't need one farking dime from us.
2013-01-10 12:06:08 PM
2 votes:
When 81 congressmen visit Canada, Turkey, or France during a three-week period, I'll get exercised.
Meanwhile, call corruption where you see it.

/Jewish money owns your government like a boss.
2013-01-10 12:03:00 PM
2 votes:

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


I thought we were talking about Israel and not Saudi Arabia.
2013-01-10 12:00:16 PM
2 votes:
Perhaps it's time to admit that Israel was a mistake.

We've got lots of land in Wyoming and Alaska, either relocate for free, or handle your problems on your own.
2013-01-10 11:47:27 AM
2 votes:

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


Those don't strike me as particularly compelling reasons. There's lots of other ports in the Med. I don't know that a good answer to "why do we do stuff with them" is "because they do joint training exercises with us".
2013-01-10 11:45:25 AM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.


Hyperbole.

Rich? Yes. Give a lot of money to US election campaigns? Yes.
2013-01-10 11:41:40 AM
2 votes:

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.
2013-01-10 11:28:39 AM
2 votes:

farkingatwork: uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Before the aliyahs, the jewish (sephardim/mizrahim) population was less than 10% of the total, and the ashkenazi population (the zionists at the time) was ca 0%.
2013-01-10 11:21:02 AM
2 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Now why is that ...?

i560.photobucket.com
2013-01-10 11:20:42 AM
2 votes:

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


I don't have any family that I've financially supported for 65 years.
2013-01-10 11:16:15 AM
2 votes:

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....
2013-01-10 11:14:54 AM
2 votes:
Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.
2013-01-10 11:07:26 AM
2 votes:
So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?
2013-01-10 10:36:26 AM
2 votes:

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...
2013-01-10 09:57:33 AM
2 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well, France.
2013-01-10 09:35:14 AM
2 votes:

Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...


Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.
2013-01-11 01:24:31 AM
1 votes:
i1172.photobucket.com
2013-01-10 08:43:09 PM
1 votes:

The Larch: If Hamas wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, then they should understand that they can't allow their local rednecks to create international incidents by continuously flinging plumbing supplies filled with sugar and fertilizer across the border.


Now that's some funny shiat right there.
Also, one of the more rational Israel posts i've seen.
2013-01-10 05:59:26 PM
1 votes:

Mike_1962: RandomRandom: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.

Maybe take a look at Pakistan. A country which is only an ally by a big stretch, which if not actively supporting terrorism, certainly seems to approve of it, and receives significantly more aid.


You're right, Pakistan is an even worse ally, but at least we get some benefit from that arrangement. The money we give Pakistan actively saves the lives of our soldiers in Afghanistan. It's an ugly business all around, but it's probably worth doing until we're mostly out of the region.

So the advertising slogan for continuing to give Israel 6 Billion dollars a year from US taxpayers: "Israel - we're a terrible ally for the United States, but at least we're not as bad as Pakistan".
2013-01-10 05:44:48 PM
1 votes:
Hey guys, I'm Jewish and I've been thrown out of 109 different restaurants and grocery stores; they always have some excuse, but I know the real reason is that everyone except me is an evil anti-semite nazi.
2013-01-10 05:35:16 PM
1 votes:

The Larch: opponent


Rhetorical opponent. As in "sits on the opposite side of the argument from where I do/did". I'm not casting you as some sort of devil or demon, just that in any debate, the two sides necessarily oppose each other. I like arguing - it's never personal here - because WTF can you really learn from someone saying "this"?

Your essay, while well written, provides me no avenue for argumentation. Well done. :)

// also I'm leaving for the day
// my opinions were informed first by having the pro-Israel propaganda thrown at me in school, then living in Israel
// I got far more liberal and realistic on the topic living there
// you can either antagonize your neighbors into moving, or you can reach across the fence
// in geopolitics, 60-70 years of war is what the former gets you
2013-01-10 05:13:26 PM
1 votes:

Keizer_Ghidorah: Half of the people who want an Israel only want it so that the prophecy will be fulfilled and God will destroy all of creation and take the chosen few (including them, they hope) away to paradise while the rest suffer eternal horrible torture.



Let me show what lengths anti-semites will go to. Here is an example of gentiles dressing up like Jews and having a fake convention to make it looks like Jews are pushing their interests on our congress. Can you believe it?

www.csmonitor.com

All these goys have fake Jewish names. What they do at this convention is push their secret agenda of end times prophecy on the US congress and then ....get this....BLAME THE JEWS. I think its deplorable for Christians to sink so low.
2013-01-10 04:39:44 PM
1 votes:
Take away all the weapons and technology the US paid for and let them fend for themselves.
2013-01-10 04:21:11 PM
1 votes:
Half of the people who want an Israel only want it so that the prophecy will be fulfilled and God will destroy all of creation and take the chosen few (including them, they hope) away to paradise while the rest suffer eternal horrible torture.
2013-01-10 04:09:03 PM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: Valiente: I found this not entirely surprising. Look up "erev": It's purity as defined by string.

"Erev" means "eve" - Friday is "erev Shabbos" (or "Shabbat", for Sephardis), the day before Passover is "erev Pesach" (the Hebrew name for Passover), etc.

What you mean is "eruv" ("mixing"). Since one of the 39 categories of "work*" prohibited on Shabbat is "carrying from a public domain to a private domain", many communities define a "new private domain" by marking it off with string (which is minimally invasive to humans and other animals) and putting some "community-owned" property (usually a box of matza) in a known location (like the rabbi or synagogue sextant's house). Therefore, all domains public and private are, for the purposes of being allowed to carry on Shabbos, one big public domain.

And now you know.

*"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.


I stand corrected. It is indeed "eruv". Still, for a non-Hebrew speaker, I showed a touch of game, I think. Certain Toronto neighbourhoods, the strings flap in the wind for months. It certainly exemplifies the impression that the Orthodox wish to maintain that "people apart" stance.

So what's your position, theologically speaking, on the dodge of getting a Gentile to switch on the lights? Seems like a bit of a dodge to me, but then I've dined with Jews on the shrimp special at Chinese restaurants (the line-ups at Christmas are insane!), so there's apparently a fair bit of Talmudic wiggle room.

And would G_d give you a pass if a candle tipped over and you had to call 911, or would it be out to the street with a shofar and a lot of motivation? Because if there's one way I've found to evaluate religious practice, it's to take its set of rules to their logical conclusions.
2013-01-10 03:19:01 PM
1 votes:

imontheinternet: The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.


Vatican City State was established in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty.
2013-01-10 03:13:19 PM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: // except classifying it as "apartheid",


Its getting harder and harder to avoid this, considering the hard line on the ethnic state policy of Israel and the ever expanding settlements.
2013-01-10 02:58:46 PM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: or maybe you do and you're happily anti-Semitic


Based on all available evidence, Amos Quito is a happy anti-semite.

Look, I'm mostly an asshole who posts dickish things in political threads because my brain is wired wrong and I think that posting dickish things in political threads is kind of funny. But I'm pretty sure that's not Amos Quito's problem.

But here's my actual, true opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Back in the 70s and 80s, a lot of people believed very strongly that South African apartheid was morally wrong. A lot of other people said that if you eliminate apartheid, the country will go to shiat. And do you know what? Both sides were right.

And, I do very honestly believe that the right and moral thing to do with the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is either of two things (1) end apartheid and give Palestinians all the rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, without exception or any of that separate-but-equal crap, or (2) a two state solution, with a fully autonomous Palestinian state.

But I also honestly believe that under both of those solutions, given the current population and cultures in the regions, the country we currently think of as Israel will go to shiat.

So, I certainly don't have any good answers. But I do know for certain that the current status quo is not a good answer either.

As an aside, I do find it very odd that the same people who seem to care very much about Israelis defending themselves against rocket attacks from Gaza don't seem to give a flying fark about the United States killing hundreds of people in Yemen with drones, or the Syrian government slaughtering 50,000 people. Israel seems to get a lot more negative attention than it actually deserves. It's almost like some of the detractors of Israel have ulterior motives.
2013-01-10 02:37:46 PM
1 votes:
Yeah, I have to say I side with Palestine on this one.

Western powers came in, divided up the land, and just gave a large block away to someone as a "Whoops, sorry we didn't do anything about that Holocaust thing, even though we totally could have" consolation present. Once there, they have been doing virtually nothing as a nation except taunting their neighbors in a complete "You can't touch me, or my big brother will beat you up!" vibe ever since.

I mean, really, Palestine and half of the middle east have a damned good reason to be pissed off at Isreal without the fact they're jewish ever entering into the picture.
2013-01-10 02:37:37 PM
1 votes:

Amos Quito: So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


So that it, then? Everyone needs to just give up whatever pieces of history speak to them, because it makes some people uncomfortable? Is there an exception to the rule (like, say, Europeans don't have to abandon their history)? Am I still allowed to study philosophies of, say, Rambam? Can I still read the Socratic-method-argumentation in the Talmud? Can I use the phrase "there are bigger fish to fry" (derived, at least partially, from a Talmudic text "there are larger goats to broil", though I suspect that's a timeless formulation)?

What about minorities like Sri Lankans, gays, gingers, Jainists...? Do they get to keep their heritage? Or if you've been hated on for any significant period of history, gotta drop those "offensive" beliefs?

They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?

No, but before 1900, had you ever met a Pole? Apparently, geopolitics and global socio-politics change with the times. Fancy that.

Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

And racism against black people couldn't exist without black people. Homophobia (or as George Takei puts it, "being an asshole") couldn't exist without gay people.

I won't apologize for my history/culture/whatever inconveniencing you. If Judaism is so reprehensible, go to Saudi Arabia, where they don't allow Jews, contribute to Israel or even recognize it as an entity. You'll be really happy there, and you'll never have to see a dude in a kippah, a talit, 6-pointed stars or Bibi's face ever again.

// and this is the last (hopefully) we engage in an Israel thread
// nothing personal (from my end, anyway) - you're just coming off as incredibly, unapologetically anti-Semitic, and you won't even understand why
// or maybe you do and you're happily anti-Semitic
// nothing to do with Israel, everything to do with the above
2013-01-10 02:34:13 PM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?
2013-01-10 01:55:21 PM
1 votes:
Can anyone guess the real reason DC is so interested in relations with Israel despite them being a worthless albatross around our neck?

The US government cannot, legally, spy on US citizens.

Foreign countries, however, can. And nothing stops them from 'sharing' it. Look up AMDOCs (I applied for a job there once and was pretty appalled).

That's it except for a few nutcases wanting the world to end and a whole bunch of sheeple just spewing crap someone else told them.
2013-01-10 01:50:53 PM
1 votes:
Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.
2013-01-10 01:34:18 PM
1 votes:

earthworm2.0: So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.


I agree (though more as a trial balloon than a Final...you get it). Let's start winding down that aid year-by-year - if Israel can't live without it, they (and we, as their ally) should know; and if they can, super!
2013-01-10 01:32:06 PM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.
2013-01-10 01:27:21 PM
1 votes:

Valiente: vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.

Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.


I wish I had just let you post what I wanted to say in this thread. Damn well said.
2013-01-10 01:15:41 PM
1 votes:

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.
2013-01-10 12:45:17 PM
1 votes:

Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.


If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?
2013-01-10 12:42:02 PM
1 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Perhaps you aren't familiar with Turkish history. Not so much at risk these days, but yea... everyone has attacked Turkey, even their allies. France is in this boat too.

Furthermore, commitment to France WAS an issue less than 100 years ago. However, in that case people were allowed to be on both sides, unlike now.
2013-01-10 12:34:46 PM
1 votes:

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


1) Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians.
2) Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

// 3) avoid shiat-stirrers who muddy the debate by claiming (or referencing the claim) that support/criticism of Israel is racist/anti-Semitic. If you can point to specific policies or actions and outline your support/criticism independent of ethnic/racial suppositions, you're golden.
2013-01-10 12:30:48 PM
1 votes:

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


Simple and to the point, I approve.

How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?  I mean, maybe Granholm was just a really good Canadian spy that we never caught, but someone feel free to tell me Canadian, French, Turkish recent history spies that have been caught in the US.

Israel is our ally, and someone who is against its continued existence probably wouldn't be a good choice diplomatically.  But a two state solution != Israel has no right to exist, and I am so goddamn sick of this.  It's almost as bad as the gun debate.  Try to actually have a discussion and instead everyone responds with hysteria.
2013-01-10 12:29:53 PM
1 votes:

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane



I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


That's germanium hydride. Hydrates imply water.
2013-01-10 12:28:36 PM
1 votes:

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them.

i.imgur.com


Especially when Bibi appears in an American election campaign ad. The current administration there enjoys being dickish for its own sake, as commenters in Israeli media have pointed out. Nobody likes Bibi but they all hate his rivals even more.

2013-01-10 12:20:58 PM
1 votes:

ringersol: At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?


Exactly.  Discussions about Israel in the US tend to devolve into rational  "Israel has a right to exist" arguments versus "Jews control the world" derp, but that's missing the issue entirely.  The issue is not the fact that the US and Israel are allies; it's the unprecedented level of deference to Israel on matters of policy.  Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.
2013-01-10 12:19:19 PM
1 votes:
The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.
2013-01-10 12:17:32 PM
1 votes:
Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"
2013-01-10 12:14:50 PM
1 votes:
A quote by a racist who agrees with wiping israel off the face of the earth... and people wonder why 8 million people need our support? Subby is a good dhimmi
2013-01-10 12:07:36 PM
1 votes:

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Agreed on the apartheid part for sure, and kudos to you: admitting that about the Israeli regime as a Zionist takes a certain level of integrity that is sorely lacking in the larger discussion of the issue...Especially in the US.

The question I would ask is how an explicitly Jewish state (or a state that officially seeks to engineer ANY ethno-religious majority within its bailiwick) won't inevitably turn apartheid in the long run? Once the demographic reality on the ground turns against the policy, apartheid returns--otherwise the policy is meaningless, no?
2013-01-10 12:05:17 PM
1 votes:

people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.



I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.
2013-01-10 12:01:53 PM
1 votes:
Funny, no response. I'll ask again--how many of you "pro-Israel" Farkers here would fully support an Israeli government that demolished settlements and even partitioned Jerusalem?
2013-01-10 11:58:20 AM
1 votes:

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


And I am the 21st century, and I have made the decision to leave all the countries based on religious national identities back in the 19th century where they belong.

White people shouldn't get a special country limited only to white people. Christians shouldn't get a special country limited only to Christians. And Jews shouldn't get a special country limited only to Jews. Religious nationalism is a 19th century concept that has been rejected by the world. We want the Muslims to stop doing it. We want the Christians to stop doing it. And we want the Jews to stop doing it, too.

I believe that all countries should allow all residents to fully participate in the society of that country. Everyone votes, everyone has an equal right to travel, everyone has an equal right to commerce, etc. Israel has reached a tipping point. Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.
2013-01-10 11:57:59 AM
1 votes:

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.
2013-01-10 11:57:53 AM
1 votes:

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.
2013-01-10 11:56:34 AM
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?
2013-01-10 11:51:43 AM
1 votes:

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.



Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.
2013-01-10 11:50:03 AM
1 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.
2013-01-10 11:48:07 AM
1 votes:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.
2013-01-10 11:47:58 AM
1 votes:

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


Uhhh, the Vatican?
2013-01-10 11:46:27 AM
1 votes:
Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?
2013-01-10 11:42:46 AM
1 votes:

ph0rk: Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?

That depends, do they love Jesus?


about equally...
2013-01-10 11:40:02 AM
1 votes:
Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?
2013-01-10 11:35:21 AM
1 votes:

people: tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html

The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....



There is still much for us to learn about being an Anti-Semite vs. not being an Anti-Semite as instructed by Fark Jews™ but I would guess it would not be Kosher for a gentile to make that same observation (how does someone that thinks like that get a US security clearance?). If one of us gentiles were to say that, would we be instructed it is a "that old canard" that anti-semites run out? And would noticing that make one a "viscious anti-semite" or a "vile anti-semite"?
2013-01-10 11:35:14 AM
1 votes:

Incog_Neeto: Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.



Hey, Israel is the Rothschild's baby, and they happen to hold the mortgage on the United States of America.

Show some respect.
2013-01-10 11:34:20 AM
1 votes:

doubled99: Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.


Exactly; you invade and make your living space space on the conquered land ...and that's why their neighbors hate them.
2013-01-10 11:34:14 AM
1 votes:

halfof33: Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?
What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?
Or is it that only pro-Israel perspectives are credible?
2013-01-10 11:31:34 AM
1 votes:

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.
2013-01-10 11:30:17 AM
1 votes:

tricycleracer: iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?

I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.


Wellll... I'd say, rather, that they are playing Total War with all of the cheat codes; but, they allied themselves with a very powerful, but extremely internally contentious country early on. The effect being; they can't attack people without their ally sending them strongly worded letters or threatening to cut the support they give.

/ actually happened to me once when I played Empire- Total War
2013-01-10 11:27:23 AM
1 votes:

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


i216.photobucket.com

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.
2013-01-10 11:26:42 AM
1 votes:
Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.
2013-01-10 11:25:52 AM
1 votes:
Unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty much the right wing who's obsessed with Israel, and they have this goofy habit of conflating 'Netanyahu' and 'Likud' with 'Israel' ... right?

So, if the Repub party implodes like we're hoping it will and we get to the point where people are ashamed to admit in public that they used to be Teabaggers ... problem solved?
2013-01-10 11:25:36 AM
1 votes:
www.smarter.org

Don't bother clicking here, nothing will happen...
2013-01-10 11:24:29 AM
1 votes:

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


That's kind of like saying "How does one establish a Muslim country where 90% of the population is Persian."

One is a religion, one is an ethnicity. The two don't always go together.
2013-01-10 11:24:01 AM
1 votes:

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Don't know a lot about the geography of Turkey, do you?
2013-01-10 11:23:18 AM
1 votes:

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.
2013-01-10 11:20:40 AM
1 votes:

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


To be fair, who wants to live in a warzone in the desert?
2013-01-10 11:19:06 AM
1 votes:

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


But I have been assured that we hate the UN.
2013-01-10 11:18:53 AM
1 votes:

halfof33: Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.


That it's laughable a nomination might be scuttled (and the nominee be called racist in the process) for past criticism of South Korean policy and lobbying power... kind of supports the point. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do.
2013-01-10 11:17:40 AM
1 votes:

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


THIS
2013-01-10 11:15:44 AM
1 votes:
Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.
2013-01-10 11:15:40 AM
1 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid: [o.onionstatic.com image 600x411]


I have it on good authority that Seth ate a non-Kosher hot dog at a Tigers game once.
2013-01-10 11:15:11 AM
1 votes:
Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.
2013-01-10 11:13:51 AM
1 votes:
Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html
2013-01-10 11:11:41 AM
1 votes:

PowerSlacker: So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?


Yes, that's exactly right, just like it's the mouthpiece for WorldNetDaily, HuffingtonPost, American Thinker, Reason, Daily Kos and the Daily Caller.
2013-01-10 10:06:47 AM
1 votes:

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


No.  It is, of course, a matter of degree.
2013-01-10 09:59:08 AM
1 votes:

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!
 
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