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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 370
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7212 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 01:28:21 PM  

Dr Dreidel: theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


It's cool to name it, not even practicing Roman Catholics trust their Church.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:39 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Because (and subsequently ironically), Christians in the Middle Ages weren't allowed to lend money/charge interest for religious reasons, AND they chose to shut out Jews from most of the professions because of religious hatred, so Jews went into banking because beaver hats hadn't been invented yet.

More than one king did more than one pogrom/mass expulsion/partial slaughter of the local Jews in order to avoid repaying a huge loan.

So the question is really "given the history, why did the Jews stay in banking?"
 
2013-01-10 01:34:18 PM  

earthworm2.0: So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.


I agree (though more as a trial balloon than a Final...you get it). Let's start winding down that aid year-by-year - if Israel can't live without it, they (and we, as their ally) should know; and if they can, super!
 
2013-01-10 01:35:56 PM  

earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...


I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?
 
2013-01-10 01:36:42 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


It's indeed unfortunate that I was drinking coffee when I read that phrase. What a great band name. What a great Klezmer band name.
 
2013-01-10 01:36:43 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Yup... Shakespeare totally made up the idea of a Jewish Usurer taking pounds of flesh from good Christians on his own. That's why the play was so popular... nobody understood it. -_-

Alternatively, during the Crusades, there was a need to loan and transfer money from party to party. As there was a Christian moratorium on charging interest, this was clearly a difficulty to be overcome. Fortunately, the Jews at the time were reading Deuteronomy a little differently and didn't consider gentiles to be "their brothers" and therefore they weren't beholden to such prohibitions.

For nearly 200 years, bankers in Europe were almost universally Jewish. Christians thought this was Usury and kind of reluctantly dealt with these bankers. This was the first socio-economic friction between Jews and Christians. Before that it was all theological, but banking brought it into the real. Centuries of friction led the Jews to become increasingly insular and reluctant to assimilate or be assimilated. Obviously, the source of their social power became the new primary source of their status as outcasts, but the maintenance of this social power was more important, at that time, than being friends with the gentiles. Plus, as an added bonus, the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

Heck, even the notion of Gentiles denotes a sort of self-segregation. "We are the Jews" The only other kind of people in the world are Non-Jews."

The Jews have a TREMENDOUS amount of history. And while not all of it is positive the vast majority is at least neutral. The problem is that you go traipsing down memory lane with Judaism and you can't help but stumble on some pitfalls that help inform the current situation... and then realize that those pitfalls are informed by previous pitfalls... stretching back like 1500 years.

/Whose "fault" was WWI? is a less complicated question than "whose fault is Palestine"
 
2013-01-10 01:37:39 PM  
USS Liberty
Stolen nuclear materials and information
Iran-Contra
\list continues
\\new fark handle suggestion: Balfour Declination? :)
 
2013-01-10 01:37:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


Or competition.
 
2013-01-10 01:40:49 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?


I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.
 
2013-01-10 01:41:59 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

 
2013-01-10 01:43:50 PM  

BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.


This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.
 
2013-01-10 01:45:53 PM  

Fissile: in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews


Um....
 
2013-01-10 01:50:14 PM  

Valiente: Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?

I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.


You just reminded me I need to check that organ donor option the next time I'm getting a new license. Thanks!
 
2013-01-10 01:50:31 PM  
Be it the far left or the far right both have reasons to throw money at Israel that are not in American interests. We don't have to support Greece to prove we don't hate Greek people. Israel has enough nukes to defend itself.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:42 PM  
Remember, if you build a house in a flood plain and it gets destroyed in a hurricane, that's your fault and the government should leave you to your own devices.

If you build a country by taking land from the indigenous population and then proceed to flip off every country for a thousand miles while implementing various morally questionable policies towards that population, it's our duty to protect you at all costs.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:53 PM  
Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.
 
2013-01-10 01:54:06 PM  

Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...


It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.
 
2013-01-10 01:55:21 PM  
Can anyone guess the real reason DC is so interested in relations with Israel despite them being a worthless albatross around our neck?

The US government cannot, legally, spy on US citizens.

Foreign countries, however, can. And nothing stops them from 'sharing' it. Look up AMDOCs (I applied for a job there once and was pretty appalled).

That's it except for a few nutcases wanting the world to end and a whole bunch of sheeple just spewing crap someone else told them.
 
2013-01-10 01:56:58 PM  

Aigoo: Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.


And before givining them more shiat to smear on their walls...
 
2013-01-10 02:03:06 PM  

BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.


I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.
 
2013-01-10 02:04:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.


Nope. In fact they were united against the Christians until ... well pretty much the formation of modern Isreal, with some other notable exceptions.

Christians had a much more integrated role in Israel (more specifically Jerusalem) until the middle of the 1800s when they promptly stopped giving a shiat about specific land and more about having shiatloads of members.

And while I've heard it claimed that the Jews are at fault for the current animosity, I'm not at all willing to go that far. But it absolutely *must* be acknowledged that this situation isn't 50 years in the making, but more like 500. If I were to rewrite a thesis I wrote in college, it'd probably be something along the lines of:
"While modern history is replete with examples of conflict between Jews and Arabs, the true catalysts of this conflict is now and always has been the Christians."

But that's mostly because I think that would be a fun paper to write.
 
2013-01-10 02:06:58 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.

I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.


Do you like the play? Out of curiosity. I've seen it live twice and on film once or twice. I've always thought it had terrible dialogue and character development but PHENOMENAL settings. It's gotta be one of W.S.'s "prettiest" plays... if you can say that about the playwrite's intent... but damn if it's not boring as all hell.
 
2013-01-10 02:10:56 PM  
hey HEY, what about assault rifles?
 
2013-01-10 02:11:51 PM  

Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?


How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?
 
2013-01-10 02:17:43 PM  
The dramaturge gave the go-ahead for it to be done in a sci-fi dystopic setting, so perhaps the only thing you liked about it was destroyed. The 'caskets' were huge wheeled coffins that the incorrect suitors were dragged into. Jessica comes down from her balcony in a cherry-picker. All the Christians wore white and silver, with swimcaps to further their de-individualization. The two (and a half - Jessica changed clothes as she ran away) Jews wore full orthodox gear, so that the black and colors would really stand out. Each of the Christians also wore a silver cross, which they hung on Shylock as they walked out on him during the trial. I had a great deal of fun with it, and only removed about 30 words from the second quarto edition.
 
2013-01-10 02:20:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well France sort of is. The Germans are overdue.
 
2013-01-10 02:24:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?

Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?



So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?


They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?


Because you (and yours) stubbornly cling to anti-social beliefs and practices despite the fact that they harm you, over and over again?
 
2013-01-10 02:24:16 PM  

The Larch: I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?


As soon as the Gaza Strip agrees to be part of Israel, sure.

The Gaza Strip now has its own boundaries and elected government, they've never wanted to be part of Israel (as an entity), and Israel was/is reluctant to annex Gaza after '67. What you seem to be implying is that Gazans should get all the privileges of Israeli citizenship without actually being Israelis.

// like Quebeckian separatists?
 
2013-01-10 02:31:38 PM  
Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.
 
2013-01-10 02:33:29 PM  

Amos Quito: So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


This reminds me of Michele Bachmann's solution for marriage equality---you're already have marriage rights and freedom from discrimination, just marry members of the opposite sex and otherwise act straight. Isn't that essentially the same argument, that gays wouldn't face discrimination if only they assimilated into the straight population?

Although I think it would be super-hilarious if you suggested the same thing to Internet Atheists instead of Jews. Feeling discriminated against? Why don't you just stop acting like atheists?
 
2013-01-10 02:34:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?
 
2013-01-10 02:34:37 PM  

chuckufarlie: The Larch: Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?

How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

you seem confused. Either that or really, really dumb.


Governor... proceed.
 
2013-01-10 02:35:48 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Valiente: Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?

I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.

You just reminded me I need to check that organ donor option the next time I'm getting a new license. Thanks!


Won't help me if you're a texting motorcyclist in the States. Move to Southern Ontario and I will support your laudable initiative.
 
2013-01-10 02:37:37 PM  

Amos Quito: So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


So that it, then? Everyone needs to just give up whatever pieces of history speak to them, because it makes some people uncomfortable? Is there an exception to the rule (like, say, Europeans don't have to abandon their history)? Am I still allowed to study philosophies of, say, Rambam? Can I still read the Socratic-method-argumentation in the Talmud? Can I use the phrase "there are bigger fish to fry" (derived, at least partially, from a Talmudic text "there are larger goats to broil", though I suspect that's a timeless formulation)?

What about minorities like Sri Lankans, gays, gingers, Jainists...? Do they get to keep their heritage? Or if you've been hated on for any significant period of history, gotta drop those "offensive" beliefs?

They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?

No, but before 1900, had you ever met a Pole? Apparently, geopolitics and global socio-politics change with the times. Fancy that.

Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

And racism against black people couldn't exist without black people. Homophobia (or as George Takei puts it, "being an asshole") couldn't exist without gay people.

I won't apologize for my history/culture/whatever inconveniencing you. If Judaism is so reprehensible, go to Saudi Arabia, where they don't allow Jews, contribute to Israel or even recognize it as an entity. You'll be really happy there, and you'll never have to see a dude in a kippah, a talit, 6-pointed stars or Bibi's face ever again.

// and this is the last (hopefully) we engage in an Israel thread
// nothing personal (from my end, anyway) - you're just coming off as incredibly, unapologetically anti-Semitic, and you won't even understand why
// or maybe you do and you're happily anti-Semitic
// nothing to do with Israel, everything to do with the above
 
2013-01-10 02:37:46 PM  
Yeah, I have to say I side with Palestine on this one.

Western powers came in, divided up the land, and just gave a large block away to someone as a "Whoops, sorry we didn't do anything about that Holocaust thing, even though we totally could have" consolation present. Once there, they have been doing virtually nothing as a nation except taunting their neighbors in a complete "You can't touch me, or my big brother will beat you up!" vibe ever since.

I mean, really, Palestine and half of the middle east have a damned good reason to be pissed off at Isreal without the fact they're jewish ever entering into the picture.
 
2013-01-10 02:37:58 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

As soon as the Gaza Strip agrees to be part of Israel, sure.

The Gaza Strip now has its own boundaries and elected government, they've never wanted to be part of Israel (as an entity), and Israel was/is reluctant to annex Gaza after '67. What you seem to be implying is that Gazans should get all the privileges of Israeli citizenship without actually being Israelis.

// like Quebeckian separatists?


The only final solutions are that Israel gives the residents of Gaza full Israeli citizenship and the full and complete rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, or Gaza is given complete autonomy from Israel.

// Well, that's not actually true. History is never actually "final".
 
2013-01-10 02:38:21 PM  

Valiente:
Won't help me if you're a texting motorcyclist in the States. Move to Southern Ontario and I will support your laudable initiative.


if you're looking for a functioning liver, fark may not be the place to start looking.

even if you somehow snag one, the liver's cirrhosis will have hepatitis.
 
2013-01-10 02:38:26 PM  

Stile4aly: Remember, if you build a house in a flood plain and it gets destroyed in a hurricane, that's your fault and the government should leave you to your own devices.

If you build a country by taking land from the indigenous population and then proceed to flip off every country for a thousand miles while implementing various morally questionable policies towards that population, it's our duty to protect you at all costs.


Wants a word.
 
2013-01-10 02:39:28 PM  
"Image too big"?

Feh.

lygsbtd.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-10 02:41:44 PM  

George Babbitt: Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.



Semitism
Sem·i·tism

noun
1. Semitic characteristics, especially the ways, ideas, influence, etc., of the Jewish people.
 
2013-01-10 02:43:32 PM  

chuckufarlie: The Larch: Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?

How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

you seem confused. Either that or really, really dumb.


Update your sarcasm interpretation drivers. You might have to uninstall your old ones before putting in the new ones like you sometimes have to do with your Java client.
 
2013-01-10 02:47:08 PM  

give me doughnuts: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.

Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


So we need to support Israel because they help us against people who hate us because we support Israel?
 
2013-01-10 02:47:10 PM  

Xcott: Amos Quito: So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

This reminds me of Michele Bachmann's solution for marriage equality---you're already have marriage rights and freedom from discrimination, just marry members of the opposite sex and otherwise act straight. Isn't that essentially the same argument, that gays wouldn't face discrimination if only they assimilated into the straight population?

Although I think it would be super-hilarious if you suggested the same thing to Internet Atheists instead of Jews. Feeling discriminated against? Why don't you just stop acting like atheists?


I didn't know that an integral part of being Jewish was hiding away from Gentiles. In my experience most of the Jews I've met would rather just get along with their neighbors no matter their background.
 
2013-01-10 02:47:27 PM  

George Babbitt: The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites, lambs, sloths, carp, anchovies, orangutans, breakfast cereals, fruit bats and large chu...


FTFY

/skip ahead, brother
 
2013-01-10 02:49:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.

If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?


Why did Dr. Dreidel call Somacandra Doc? Curiouser and curiouser.
 
2013-01-10 02:49:45 PM  

The Larch: The only final solutions are that Israel gives the residents of Gaza full Israeli citizenship and the full and complete rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, or Gaza is given complete autonomy from Israel.


I can dig it.

The roadblock is in getting the respective populations to live with the terms of a deal, but we'll cross that wadi when we come to it.
 
2013-01-10 02:50:45 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Why did Dr. Dreidel call Somacandra Doc? Curiouser and curiouser.


"This is heavy, Doc."

// not obscure after November 5th, 1955
 
2013-01-10 02:52:21 PM  

heap: Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?

does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?


Yes, it does.

That's why holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers often try to conceal their group affiliation when spreading their propaganda---because they know that if you expose them, they will be ignored or dismissed as sleazy crackpots.

What you deride as "labeling" really amounts to informing the public that someone has a certain belief system that is known to be less credible. It's actually very useful to know that, and it's quite rational to qualify what they say based on that knowledge.
 
2013-01-10 02:55:39 PM  

George Babbitt: Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.


This is true in terms of linguistics and in terms of archaeology, and it's bugged me forever that Arabs are called "anti-Semites". It's the semantic (but not Semitic) equivalent of saying "stop hitting yourself!"

But I have heard Jews described as a race, a culture, a religion and a nationality. There seems to be a similar sort of ambiguity at play. If they are a religion, a religion wanting its own country is a theocracy, no? Like Iran since '79? Or Saudi (implicitly) since the '20s?

Zionism would seem to be unique in that regard, in that it sought a homeland for European Jewry, but preferably non-practising and/or "lite" Reform Jews most likely to politically skew towards socialism. It's like a country formed entirely of lapsed Canadian United Church members who discovered in their midst a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses jamming up the gears of the Great Experiment.

And who spent all day getting paid to read the Bible, not be in the army, and to throw stones at insufficiently observant movie goers during the holy day. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist, but some of the premises on which it exists (a great Western-style liberal democracy, our only friend in the Middle East, etc.) can and should be questioned without the questioners being called "anti-Semites".

By that measure, a surprising number of Jews are anti-Semites. Personally, I lump the Jews in with the other dummy "peoples of the Book(s)" as I consider monotheism a sort of mental illness and cultural crippling, but they get props from me because they don't want me in their particular short bus and never hammer on my door to share the "good news" of their zombie sky fairy.

But that faint admiration, like preferring the tard that doesn't fling poo, doesn't really translate into thinking the world needs another theocracy. I mean, I've been to Ireland.
 
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