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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 370
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7203 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 12:45:17 PM  

Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.


If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?
 
2013-01-10 12:46:49 PM  

yeegrek: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Funny, I've been told countless times by Americans that if not for them, Canada would have been conquered several times over now.


Obligatory

"Yeah, you won, I guess. I don't really care."

"I care SO MUCH."
 
2013-01-10 12:46:56 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


France?  Come on, Who doesn't want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:33 PM  

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


I'm replying because it's in my genes to not be rude-
Ok, I'm rude sometimes.
But I felt bad for your lonely posts. Most of mine are lonely.

I'm not sure where I stand on Israel.
I think it wasn't their fault that they ended up being given the territory after WWII. Certainly seemed somewhat upstanding and fair, given the situation.

But what they have done since is theirs to own. And some of that stuff is not good. I would love to see a 2-state solution, because I like peace.

/i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:45 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.


But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?
 
2013-01-10 12:48:58 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.


OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.
 
ows
2013-01-10 12:49:16 PM  

tricycleracer: tricycleracer: the

*they


this
 
2013-01-10 12:49:20 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.



Can you spot the common denominator?


Dr. Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state,


Since 1963? Did I miss something?


Dr. Dreidel: 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).



So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


Dr. Dreidel:   I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


Again, find the common denominator.
 
2013-01-10 12:49:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history

And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.


As a working class white person I wouldn't be welcome in a lot of neighborhoods blacks were "disallowed" from moving into, and as of right now I have a shiatload of African American, Asian, Middle Eastern, and probably a few Jewish neighbors. Economics has always added a further unnecessary stink to these situations; they are not driven entirely by ethnic etc. difference. Notice that the Nazi party only gained traction in Germany* while it was suffering terrible economic woes from WWI and a lot of people just were looking for scapegoats, and of course if you're already self-segregating it's only natural to continue to do so. This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time and indeed, you see a lot of writings from this period talking about being a German (citizen) first and being Jewish scond (which inspired a lot the "Eternal Jew" concept that the Third Reich used to justify ethnic cleansing).
 
2013-01-10 12:50:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.

Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!


Dude, everybody is already fully and completely aware that those are two of the available options.

But there certainly are other options, of course. For example, one side or the other refuse to enter into any negotiation or discussions and continue living with the current situation forever. Or, one side or the other can commit genocide and systematically eliminate all of their opponents from the face of the earth. Or maybe some third party could come forcibly remove all of the people on one side of the fight, and relocate them all in a new host country.

What I should have said was that those are the only two options that the international community will actually accept as the eventual goal of negotiations, and every single person involved in the negotiations is fully and completely aware of that fact.
 
2013-01-10 12:51:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.

But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?


Maybe, but only because we could make more money selling our outdated stuff to the Chinese ourselves like we do with everyone else in Asia. I'm wondering if the US might secretly be getting some kind of kickback for that or if there were other arrangements made.
 
2013-01-10 12:52:39 PM  

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?


Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?
// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?
// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?
 
TWX
2013-01-10 12:52:53 PM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Egypt slowly assimilated Gaza and Jordan slowly assimilated the West Bank. Begin with economic investment made favorable by the lower wages for these areas, similar to how the US/Puerto Rico relationship is, and after some economic stability is gained in each respective territory, work toward full citizenship rights in parity with the respective nations, allowing wages to also come into parity with the respective nations, culminating with freedom of movement.

I've seen old maps showing Gaza as part of Egypt and W.B. as part of Transjordan, but those attempts appear to predate these nations' peace treaties with Israel, and it appears that no serious attempts to integrate like that have been tried since those treaties were enacted.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:10 PM  

PsiChick: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.


Syria: Hey, Arabs living in Israel, we're gonna go fark em up, wanna help?
Arabs in Israel: Uhhhh. Not really. We kind of like it here and the Jews who just moved in aren't so bad.
Syria: Well gtfo the way then, here we come.
Arabs in Israel: Shiat, I'm getting the fark out of Dodge.
2 months later:
Syria: Oh fark, that was a bad idea, give us our land back?
Israel: Go fark yourselves. No.
Arabs no longer in Israel: Hey, I just wanted you guys to know that we had nothing to do with that mess. Can we come back now?
Israel: You knew they were coming and you didn't warn us? You ALSO go fark yourselves. No.

Palestinians:
ksaz.images.worldnow.com
Fine. Hey, Syria can we han-

Syria: OH LOOK WHO IT IS! Thanks for the help, dickbags. And to answer your question: No.

Palestinians: FFFFFFUUUUUUUU-

I mean, it's really just a shiat sandwich for everyone.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:51 PM  

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Colonialism wasn't all bad, if it led to such examples of hybrid vigour as this:

cdn1.gossipcenter.com

She's in the new James Bond film, and is one of most beautiful women I've ever seen.
Beautiful enough for Israel? Hard to say.
 
2013-01-10 12:54:41 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time


Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans
 
2013-01-10 12:55:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.


Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.
 
2013-01-10 12:57:10 PM  

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


Why is Israel an ally? What do they do for us besides makimg sure everyone in the ME hates us?
 
2013-01-10 12:57:57 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.


So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020
 
2013-01-10 12:58:10 PM  

TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.


I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.
 
2013-01-10 12:58:58 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time

Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans


I felt that 20th century history- some of which people who are alive today lived through- is a lot more relevant to today's politics than shiat that happened when Caesar was around and Rome was more than a mere tourist attraction. If nothing else I felt it fair to cite at least one situation when Jews in Europe weren't second class citizens and had somewhat been accepted into society at large at least until people started looking for other people to hate for silly reasons.
 
2013-01-10 01:00:31 PM  
Don't forget that there are many Orthodox, Catholic(Vatican II ruined some of this) and some evangelical Christians etc. who believe that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Judaism has no claims to the terms 'chosen', 'people of God', 'Israel' and the like. That Jesus has fulfilled and taken on the roles of all the Old Covenant promises. Its called supersessionism or fulfillment theology by it's supporters and replacement theology by it's detractors. In other words, there are no true Jews anymore, and therefore they have no rights to any land anywhere, at least no more than anybody else.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:30 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Neither is Israel.

Y'know, unless you've been asleep for 50 years. Jordan, Egypt, and more are on good, if not ambivalent, terms with Israel.
Hell, even Lebanon doesn't want to tangle with the Israelis, and Syria has its own issues.
The only nation that keeps up the derp is Iran, and their proxy of Hezbollah.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:44 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?


Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?
 
2013-01-10 01:02:20 PM  

jaybeezey: We also weren't part of a group that created Canada, Frnace or Turkey out of thin air.


Again France. We created that.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:37 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Not yet.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:48 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?


All of them?
Admittedly, most of them would be industrial/economic spies, and not the military intelligence kind.


Crotchrocket Slim: Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.

What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?


Depends on what you mean by obligation. Nations pull out of treaties all the time if their geo-political calculus says it is worth the diplomatic hit.
 
2013-01-10 01:03:59 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Shakespeare
 
2013-01-10 01:05:20 PM  
Isn't France part of another country now? I thought they surrendered to someone just recently.
 
2013-01-10 01:05:23 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.

So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020


I'd call it a very temporary, stop gap measure that if we'd ever consider implementing as official policy, we'd need to set up conditions needed to end that policy.

If nothing else, what people hate each other for changes greatly over time. You realize that even if the Nazis had finished off their Final Solution they'd have started turning inward and finding other flimsy excuses to toss people into internment camps; segregation has never been anything that people do for practical reasons.

As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Part of the reason is that Christians couldn't collect interest on loans. They "sold" them to Jews, who could charge interest - leading to the twin stereotypes of Jews being bankers and Europeans reviling them. (Or so I hear.)

That, and the general focus on learning complex systems.

// why are black people stereotypically good at sports?
// I have no idea - nobody asked me when these stereotypes were created
 
2013-01-10 01:06:37 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:59 PM  
Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.
 
2013-01-10 01:08:18 PM  

PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.


joke fail...
 
2013-01-10 01:09:37 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.


Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.
 
2013-01-10 01:09:52 PM  

theorellior: TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.

I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.


Ok, my bad. I should have said something more like brain-addled, it was self-effacing.

And I understand what you mean. But the people that I know that are Israel-supporters go around telling everyone so (even tho nobody asked)
by bumpersticking their minivans to death with SUPPORT ISRAEL...ISRAEL IS OUR ALLY...I (STAR OF DAVID) ISRAEL, etc.
They wear the tee shirts and say the catch phrases.
But it boils down to-
*they are Christianity's religious roots,
*they are with us in what we do, and what America stands for
*Jesus ain't comin' back unless the place is destroyed, and
*they are the stewards of our holy land.
 
2013-01-10 01:10:12 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Historically being barred from owning (and thus working) land, leaving banking and more academic industries the only ones really available to them. The focus on academics in Jewish culture doesn't hurt (not sure if this arose from that situation or if that's simply been a hallmark of Jewish culture since the beginning).
 
2013-01-10 01:11:14 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths. It's not so much in use in Christian-based nations today, but "sharia banking" is a complicated system for companies in Islamic nations to get around this stricture. In Europe in the Middle Ages, Jews could loan money to Christians, but not to fellow Jews. So they became the bankers.
 
2013-01-10 01:11:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.

Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.


In democratic republics, governments are always reflections of their constituencies. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and all that.
 
2013-01-10 01:12:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Structu re _and_content
]
Chapters 20 and 21
 
2013-01-10 01:15:21 PM  

Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.


It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:24 PM  

theorellior: Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths.


As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.

Implied in that (among other OT laws) is also the notion that both lender and borrower should be fully aware of the terms and costs of the loan. The lender has an obligation to ensure the borrower isn't setting themselves up for ruin.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:41 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.
 
2013-01-10 01:16:43 PM  

farkingatwork: Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]

uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Welcome to Ulster, ye baaasturd...
 
2013-01-10 01:19:25 PM  

Dr Dreidel: As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.


Tru dat, but Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

Even with sharia banking, it's probably one of the obstacles that keeps the Muslim world from developing faster.
 
2013-01-10 01:19:34 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


Exactly. You can't draw out the bad guys for the main event without some well placed bait
 
2013-01-10 01:20:25 PM  

people: meh



My old synagogue (admittedly, we were reform) always interpreted that command to mean to be more moral. To be a pillar of the community, as it were.
 
2013-01-10 01:20:57 PM  

Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?


No whey.
 
2013-01-10 01:26:39 PM  

theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!


I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.
 
2013-01-10 01:27:21 PM  

Valiente: vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.

Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.


I wish I had just let you post what I wanted to say in this thread. Damn well said.
 
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