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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 370
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7200 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 12:14:37 PM

Dr Dreidel: no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.


just sayin': Ethnic minorities shouldn't challenge the majorities. It hasn't worked too well for you.
 
2013-01-10 12:14:50 PM
A quote by a racist who agrees with wiping israel off the face of the earth... and people wonder why 8 million people need our support? Subby is a good dhimmi
 
2013-01-10 12:16:41 PM
Incog_Neeto: They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.

If you can't find this later, it's because I stole it.
 
2013-01-10 12:16:58 PM

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


There ought to be some level of concern over Israel from the US - there would be no Israel without the US/UK/other WWII Allies, so there is an implied responsibility there - just not the level of concern currently present.
 
2013-01-10 12:17:32 PM
Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"
 
2013-01-10 12:17:48 PM

RandomRandom: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.


Maybe take a look at Pakistan. A country which is only an ally by a big stretch, which if not actively supporting terrorism, certainly seems to approve of it, and receives significantly more aid.
 
2013-01-10 12:18:18 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


" I listened to the comments from Mr. Abrams with an increasing sense of incredulity. As he attacked Mr. Hagel for being soft on Iran, I could not help but remember that Mr. Abrams himself conspired with others in the Reagan administration to sell US missiles secretly to Iran, in violation of US law."
 
2013-01-10 12:18:56 PM

Vectron: Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.


#1 That statement is not mutually exclusive with what you said that Jewish Liberals believe
#2 You don't know that anyone here is a "Jewish Liberal" from anything they say even on their account profile


#3 The Elders of Zion are putting you on a list somewhere.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:19 PM
The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:33 PM

SixPaperJoint: I got all my shiksas with me


upload.wikimedia.org

Approves.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM

The Larch: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.


This is very true. I know some of these people.

Now I'm on my phone trying to avoid the

Broken glass, broken glass, broken glass, broken glass..

/still the best birthday I ever had
 
2013-01-10 12:20:38 PM
It's a state based on religion, so how about Vatican City?

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Israel is like South Vietnam?
 
2013-01-10 12:20:39 PM
Thanks for the Iraq war, AIPAC!!!

BTW: we didn't find any WMDs, but at least you got what you wanted like a good JAP.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:58 PM

ringersol: At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?


Exactly.  Discussions about Israel in the US tend to devolve into rational  "Israel has a right to exist" arguments versus "Jews control the world" derp, but that's missing the issue entirely.  The issue is not the fact that the US and Israel are allies; it's the unprecedented level of deference to Israel on matters of policy.  Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:34 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.


So self defense is now picking fights? You are either retarded, dhimmi, or both.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:38 PM
We should have given them Winnipeg instead of Palestine. Seriously, no one in Canada or anywhere else would miss Winnipeg, much less fight over it.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:48 PM

Joe Blowme: Subby is a good dhimmi


DRINK!
 
2013-01-10 12:23:26 PM

give me doughnuts: Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.


The other arab nations have behaved in similiar fashion over the years. While Israel's treatment of the Palestinians leaves a lot to be desrelyingired (to say the least), the various arab states in the area have continually exacerbated the problem while using the palestinian population to be a constant potential causus belli.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:19 PM

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


That's because the tea party didn't have enough signs showing Obama with a Hitler mustache, well that or those wiley jews were smarter than the tea party thought.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:29 PM
OK, bottom-line it for me, folks.

How do we get to the point where all of us can just stop hearing about and giving a rat's ass about this tiny, obnoxious nation half a world away? Just tell me what it takes, because I've had enough of this shiat.

Spell it out for me. Because I am being asked to care about this shiat waaaaaaaaayy too often now. And I need it to stop.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:51 PM
Never seen a thread like this one before. I wonder where it will go...
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:25:13 PM
C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?
 
2013-01-10 12:26:14 PM

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.
 
2013-01-10 12:26:30 PM

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


They were attacked mostly buy their own Kurds, and the Iraqi Kurds didn;t have backing of their country during those attacks.

Syria lobbed, what 5 mortars in this conflict (if you are talking about something earlier, please correct me).

Not really familiar with Iran "trying to overthrow" them, but I am pretty sure whatever you are alluding to sin't a threat to "wipe them out".
 
2013-01-10 12:26:58 PM
You know the best part about Israel thread?

Getting to watch the anti-Muslim neocon wingnuts and the anti-Semitic paleocon wingnuts argue and eat each other.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:27:12 PM

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


Christian Voters, not Jewish ones.
 
2013-01-10 12:27:55 PM

factoryconnection: Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.


I figure that now, with some chatty Jewish folks onboard I might get an intelligent answer to this question.
 
2013-01-10 12:28:02 PM
Can't we just give the jews some casinos or something...
 
2013-01-10 12:28:36 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them.

i.imgur.com


Especially when Bibi appears in an American election campaign ad. The current administration there enjoys being dickish for its own sake, as commenters in Israeli media have pointed out. Nobody likes Bibi but they all hate his rivals even more.

 
2013-01-10 12:29:14 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win
 
2013-01-10 12:29:42 PM

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


What would an "about face" entail if they aren't doing much towards/against that goal?

/not a fan of Bibi
 
2013-01-10 12:29:53 PM

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane



I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


That's germanium hydride. Hydrates imply water.
 
2013-01-10 12:30:24 PM

JusticeandIndependence: Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.


It happens to be on Tumblr. Commonly blocked at a lot of workplaces due to excessive lolcats
 
2013-01-10 12:30:48 PM

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


Simple and to the point, I approve.

How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?  I mean, maybe Granholm was just a really good Canadian spy that we never caught, but someone feel free to tell me Canadian, French, Turkish recent history spies that have been caught in the US.

Israel is our ally, and someone who is against its continued existence probably wouldn't be a good choice diplomatically.  But a two state solution != Israel has no right to exist, and I am so goddamn sick of this.  It's almost as bad as the gun debate.  Try to actually have a discussion and instead everyone responds with hysteria.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:16 PM

Shadow writer: The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.


Good analysis. Currently Israel has a right wing hard core government, but that will change.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:37 PM

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


It's a very understandable impulse, but when you look at the overall history of the world there are groups that have suffered similarly (the Hmong being a good example) you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history
 
2013-01-10 12:34:46 PM

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


1) Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians.
2) Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

// 3) avoid shiat-stirrers who muddy the debate by claiming (or referencing the claim) that support/criticism of Israel is racist/anti-Semitic. If you can point to specific policies or actions and outline your support/criticism independent of ethnic/racial suppositions, you're golden.
 
2013-01-10 12:35:19 PM

imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.


The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.
 
2013-01-10 12:36:03 PM

give me doughnuts: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 720x540]

They're off by a factor of 10, and almost all of it is spent here, at defense contractors.


Moreover, the delicious irony is that sales of US armaments to Saudi Arabia pays for the whole Israeli-Egypt aid package.
 
2013-01-10 12:38:56 PM

Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.


I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:02 PM

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


I don't think Jewish people are the religious group that he meant. It's the evangelicals, especially the left behinder twerps.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:40 PM

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


??? The Kurds are one thing. Syria challenging Turkey? They, like the Iranians might meddle, but nobody's threatening to push them all into the sea.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:06 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history


And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:07 PM

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:26 PM

Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.


What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?
 
2013-01-10 12:41:19 PM

Antimatter: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.


Oh, those Christian folks are hummin' Cuz they say their God is Comin'.
Well, our God's come two times tonight...And Our Goddess at least three.
 
2013-01-10 12:42:02 PM

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Perhaps you aren't familiar with Turkish history. Not so much at risk these days, but yea... everyone has attacked Turkey, even their allies. France is in this boat too.

Furthermore, commitment to France WAS an issue less than 100 years ago. However, in that case people were allowed to be on both sides, unlike now.
 
2013-01-10 12:43:36 PM

Dr Dreidel: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?

Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win


That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.
 
2013-01-10 12:45:04 PM

Somacandra: imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.

The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.


I have been accused of being jewish, on Israeli payroll, etc and I think the fear of critisizing Israel in the US is silly.

I don't see it changing from a 3rd rail of politics anytime soon.
 
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