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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 370
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7203 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 11:47:58 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


Uhhh, the Vatican?
 
2013-01-10 11:48:07 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:13 AM  
This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:42 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


upload.wikimedia.org

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this
 
2013-01-10 11:48:50 AM  

qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.
 
2013-01-10 11:49:52 AM  
Dont forget Poland!

// Would have been funnier if I was here earlier.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:03 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:24 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


It's not that (well, I don't doubt that some people hold this view); here are the more rational concerns:

-Israel holds disproportional lobbying influence for a foreign nation, even as an ally
-Israel is a "problem ally" in that US support for Israel is a diplomatic thorn for many other nations in the region, and (unfairly or not) there is a perception that the US gives tacit approval for controversial Israeli actions (like aggressive expansion)
 
2013-01-10 11:50:51 AM  

imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.


geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:22 AM  

Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]


Nice of you to let people know what they believe.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:43 AM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.



Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.
 
2013-01-10 11:54:12 AM  

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


Yea. In a few decades all that will remain will be Arabs and the Ultraorthodox Jews.
 
2013-01-10 11:55:01 AM  

Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.


Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:19 AM  
a.abcnews.com

www.thetimes.co.uk

i.dailymail.co.uk

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:34 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?
 
2013-01-10 11:57:02 AM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane



I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


images.gizmag.com
 
2013-01-10 11:57:53 AM  

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.
 
2013-01-10 11:57:59 AM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:06 AM  

T-Servo: [a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

[www.thetimes.co.uk image 780x520]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x334]

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


HEE HEE!
 
2013-01-10 11:58:20 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


And I am the 21st century, and I have made the decision to leave all the countries based on religious national identities back in the 19th century where they belong.

White people shouldn't get a special country limited only to white people. Christians shouldn't get a special country limited only to Christians. And Jews shouldn't get a special country limited only to Jews. Religious nationalism is a 19th century concept that has been rejected by the world. We want the Muslims to stop doing it. We want the Christians to stop doing it. And we want the Jews to stop doing it, too.

I believe that all countries should allow all residents to fully participate in the society of that country. Everyone votes, everyone has an equal right to travel, everyone has an equal right to commerce, etc. Israel has reached a tipping point. Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:54 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??
 
2013-01-10 11:59:14 AM  

FlashHarry: imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.

geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.


Japan also has a tremendous amount of wealth and influence for such a small land with so few resources, relatively speaking.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:25 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?



Possibly the Dutch Republics during the reign of Phillip II of the Holy Roman Empire, though the relationship was very different.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:47 AM  

T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:16 PM  
Perhaps it's time to admit that Israel was a mistake.

We've got lots of land in Wyoming and Alaska, either relocate for free, or handle your problems on your own.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:42 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]

Nice of you to let people know what they believe.



Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.

 
2013-01-10 12:00:45 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x162]

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this



A pic of Buford T. Justice would go well about now.


/you sounded taller on the radio
 
2013-01-10 12:01:53 PM  
Funny, no response. I'll ask again--how many of you "pro-Israel" Farkers here would fully support an Israeli government that demolished settlements and even partitioned Jerusalem?
 
2013-01-10 12:03:00 PM  

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


I thought we were talking about Israel and not Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:16 PM  
The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:17 PM  

ITGreen: Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.

Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...


Canada gets the nod for hot Francophone women.
It's a personal hygiene thing.

/I've been in France.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:23 PM  

Vectron: Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd? Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


If you're seriously telling me that the same group that counts Eric Cantor and George Soros, Noam Chomsky and Henry Kissinger, Jon Stewart and Jonah Goldberg as members can do ANYTHING without collapsing into a pile of dysfunction, I suspect you may not have thought things through. Even if we limited it only to those Jews sitting on boards, you'd have as hard a time convincing them to do anything as a group that you'd have with convincing the rest of them.

And no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.

// we're not
// and we're not any more or less cohesive, as an international group, than Muslims or white people
 
2013-01-10 12:04:41 PM  

Vectron: Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...

Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


forums.digitalpoint.com
 
2013-01-10 12:05:17 PM  

people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.



I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.
 
2013-01-10 12:05:47 PM  

The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.


Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!
 
2013-01-10 12:06:08 PM  
When 81 congressmen visit Canada, Turkey, or France during a three-week period, I'll get exercised.
Meanwhile, call corruption where you see it.

/Jewish money owns your government like a boss.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:35 PM  
fark Israel. And fark the Palestinians too. Let the desert savages slaughter each other, they don't need one farking dime from us.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:36 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Agreed on the apartheid part for sure, and kudos to you: admitting that about the Israeli regime as a Zionist takes a certain level of integrity that is sorely lacking in the larger discussion of the issue...Especially in the US.

The question I would ask is how an explicitly Jewish state (or a state that officially seeks to engineer ANY ethno-religious majority within its bailiwick) won't inevitably turn apartheid in the long run? Once the demographic reality on the ground turns against the policy, apartheid returns--otherwise the policy is meaningless, no?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:02 PM  

Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state


Ummm, wheat was this?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:42 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Clever place to let the British put your country, innit it?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:55 PM  

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


At some level yes, but at some level no. The first rule of politics is to create some 'other.' To much of the world America is that other, with or without Israel
 
2013-01-10 12:09:27 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Done in 1.
 
2013-01-10 12:12:05 PM  
At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?

I mean, there's a real difference between telling some goons that you'll kick their ass if they pick on your little brother, and sitting there silently while he then goes about *picking* fights and generally acting like a raging asshole, just to see how far he can push people with his big brother backing him up.

Let's remember that neither Hagel, nor Obama before him, dared say *anything* remotely un-supportive of Israel. They probably should have, but never did, so much as say "if you *pick the fight* yourself, you can fight it yourself." They never even suggested that maybe we should tell our little brother to dial it down. To stop screwing with people we both promised to not provoke.

No, they are being politically attacked for so much as suggesting that it is *possible* for our little brother to use our support incorrectly. That it's *possible* for him to be in the wrong. That it's *possible* for him to get us into fights that no-one wants or needs and that will just ensure more trouble down the line. Not that they're on that path. Not that we're at that point. Just that it's *possible*.

And they're being shouted down and bullied away from raising the possibility, for suggesting that we need to consider our support and interactions in the context of that possibility, with an argument tantamount to "why do you *hate* your little brother?"
 
2013-01-10 12:12:38 PM  

Vectron: people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.


I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-01-10 12:12:55 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Maybe he copypasta'd from a 1995 webpage?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:22 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Done in 1.


Done what, derping?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:44 PM  

zarberg: T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.

Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.


Turkey should feel lucky Palin didn't try to shoot them, having heard they taste good.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

Vectron: I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


My mind is rusty. Who wrote about this? Edwin Black or Israel Shahak?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


We are family
I got all my shiksas with me
We are family
Get up all you goyim and sing


/sorry
 
2013-01-10 12:14:18 PM  

Diogenes: But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation


How are we ready to sacrifice sovereignty for Israel?

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Yeah what happened in WWII wasn't assimilation, but thanks for playing.

/looking forward to your derp about it being their fault.
 
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